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SuperArchMegalon
16-03-2009, 05:07
There's been enough discussion about Daemons, VC, and DE lately to put a giant to sleep. Let's go back a little bit and talk about extremely powerful armies of the past.

Before VC and Daemons came out there were High Elves, WE, and Bretonnia. Before those books came out, what armies were the top dogs? Discussion of previous editions welcome and encouraged. Let's leave things like SoC at home though.

Asp
16-03-2009, 05:16
In the old days, WoC and DoC were one army. And man did their characters kick butt!

Havock
16-03-2009, 05:18
Brets were top dogs for quite some time, still, 6th ed army books were not as "extreme" as the newer books.

Waaaaghmonger
16-03-2009, 05:42
I don't remember any particular army being regarded as over-powered in 6th edition.

A lot of players chose Chaos because they were pretty hard and I think because you could build an army quickly due to the high points cost, but with frenzy they were easy to deal with. Not over-powered.

I'd have to say that Skaven shooty armies were about the toughest, but still not over the top.

I don't remember any armies being regarded as too weak, either. Maybe Dark Elves, but that's it.

Darkspear
16-03-2009, 06:45
For a long period of time, the 6th edition belonged to the Fantastic Four, namely Bretonnians, Skaven, Lizardmen and VC (seems VC were always broken due to the ability to replenish troops at a crazy rate). Then wood elf came and forced the lizardmen out.

This is followed by dwarves and the rest is history.

fubukii
16-03-2009, 08:18
empire dual stank wAltar/franz lists are still one of the most solid power armies even today. Pretty good vs most daemon armies, rock solid vs vc, and still pretty good vs de.

RossS
16-03-2009, 08:29
Back in 5th edition ("when miniatures were made of wood") the Chaos hordes were an absolutely sickening thing to face. A Chaos Lord was an army-breaker. And even though the Vampires arrived at the tail end of that edition, they were absolutely disgusting. There was once a time when your average Vampire Count possessed the same basic characteristics as a dragon. It's probably for the best that those days are gone.

Chainaxe07
16-03-2009, 08:52
Back in 5th edition ("when miniatures were made of wood") the Chaos hordes were an absolutely sickening thing to face. A Chaos Lord was an army-breaker. And even though the Vampires arrived at the tail end of that edition, they were absolutely disgusting. There was once a time when your average Vampire Count possessed the same basic characteristics as a dragon. It's probably for the best that those days are gone.

Well, i fondly remember 5th ed vampires myself. Finally evil, armoured human looking miniatures without silly mutations and decent stats to go with!
But i know some did not like that trend, hence the nerf VC receivd in later editions.
Chaos lord have always been hard nutshells, but i'd say today they are comparatively stronger, as back then they had to contend with decent vamps, all powerful slann, t4 elven lord (mostly unchanged apart getting softer), and all round much nastier magic items available to most armies that were, essentially, equalizers.
Their only nemesis that still has a chanche against thm are dwaf lords, quite dangerous today too,as well as lizard lords and black orcs.
The only new entry in the top hitters list is possibly demons.

(sic)
16-03-2009, 10:20
skaven were always on top of my list

Voodoo Boyz
16-03-2009, 11:50
Skaven used to be disgusting because you couldn't shoot or magic Weapon Teams if they were within 6 inches of a unit; as such they could fire at you with near impunity.

Then 7th Edition came out and Skaven's nastiness fell down quite a few pegs.

Lizzies were fantastic back in the day, and Wood Elves changed the game when they were released. Before them, there was Bretts, and then the more extreme Brett Royal Air Force (3-4x Pegasus Units).

Darkling
16-03-2009, 12:39
When skirmishers could always march, the WE (and lizzies with many skink units) were really op. With the change of the rule the army came down to a fair level.
In 6. Ed. VC were strong but not too strong, the army had a real problem against all big things like dragons or even giants and fast armies with normal magic resistence like WE.
I think the deamonic legion armies were the most broken lists, especially the Tz or Nurgle units were way over the top.

Lord Malorne
16-03-2009, 12:51
Tzeencth themed HOC armies rocked hard, Skaven, Wood elves and Brets were top dogs.

Nuada
16-03-2009, 12:57
High Elves used to win alot. You could have up to 6 dragon riders as core units, and most of your h2h infantry could take 2-H swords. They have intiative 6 (-2 with a great weapon) +2 intiative when they charge. Which means they'll hit most units first even if they are charged.
Basically very similar to how they are now.

Desert Rain
16-03-2009, 16:23
In 6th I guess that Wood Elves and Brettonians were amongst the most powerful. But not by much, most armies back them were more balanced against each other than they are now.
Funny thing though 6th ed Dark Elves were pretty crappy so they went from the bottom to the top :p

Orcboy_Phil
16-03-2009, 16:35
Fishmen rocked **** in first ed. :D

W0lf
16-03-2009, 17:44
6th; Skaven SAD, Bretts and Wood elves were top dogs.

7th nerfed SAD and soon HE filled the skaven slot

Then Vampires pushed bretts right down and challenged woodies.

Daemons came in and further nerfed bretts (they cant deal with unbreakable-esq fear causers) whilst replacing wood elves.

Finally DE blew HE out of the water and we have our current roster.

SuperArchMegalon
16-03-2009, 18:35
Fishmen rocked **** in first ed. :D

What about more like this? What made Fishmen good? What armies and characters were the most overwhelmingly powerful during say 2nd through 4th edition? There are decades of history here and I'm convinced the game can't be at its most imbalanced today.

Bac5665
16-03-2009, 18:46
W0lf has it about right, although I don't remember HE actually being a power army. I remember everyone being scarred of them, but I don't remember them actually being OTT. The only build that was ever ridiculous was the SDragon with RBTs, and that list is still crazy good. But one list does not a broken book make.

Sure they may have been 4th best, but only by token of being the just a little better than empire when Empire and Orcs were the only real competition as they were the only 7E books at the time.

I still would put Brets ahead of them, as everything that made Brets carzy in the first place is still true, its just that VC and DoC give Brets fits. But having two bad match ups isn't that bad for a list, particularly when almost every other match up is great.

valdrog
16-03-2009, 18:57
Ahhh..the good'ole days when fanatics gave no armor saves and you could have them do 2d6 dmg with a magic item..

W0lf
16-03-2009, 18:57
Bretts also have a terrible match-up vs large target flyers.

Large target flyers + daemons/vamps as bad MUs kills a armys power for tournys. Which is most often used for balance/power discusions and rightly so imo.

soots
16-03-2009, 21:19
50Pt boltthrowers
Brett Always charging lances
10D6 Attacks from a chaos lord with hydra sword with helm of many eyes.
Dwarven 600pt lords who could solo armies (boots of flight)
Undead -3Ld terror tests with WS10 and -1 to hit in combat for all
65pt Organ guns (5 cannons in one)
90 S5 Helblaster hits in one turn and Tonka Truck tank support
Arcane magic supplement with always Total power casting, magic mirror and boots of flight
Deathfrenzied Ratogre + Verminlord unit
Instant caster death Greenskin banner
S7 T6 base state vampires with sword of destruction (No magic items worked vs them)

Neknoh
17-03-2009, 00:08
Aren't we forgetting something about 6th edition?

Namely, the Storm of Chaos, and two particular armies that went with it.

Daemonic Legion has been mentioned, Tzeentch Flying Circus where the ONLY thing not flying were the horrors that were your true core, then you had chariots (flamers in flying chariots), screamers, changebringers (flamers on discs), heralds in chariots and then a Lord of Change on top, it was nothing but sickening.

But worse still, and not because you couldn't kill them... but because they cost 11 points, and got 10 for dying... the Slayers of Karak Kadrin, Slayer armies were nothing but sick against anything but massed Skink shooting (skirmishers couldn't be marchblocked in 6th). Doomseekers were sickening (strike before impact hits, do D3 wounds and hit everything in btb and everything behind that IIRC), and the Slayer characters were insane. Not to mention their Champion upgrades of slayer UNITS (yes, you could essentially promote an entire unit to unit champions) meant that, with those rules, you had to allocate each and every attack against them.

The Slayer army, and the Daemonic Legion, ah, those were the days... heck, I think the slayers might stand a chance against modern-day deathstars or daemons

Tokamak
17-03-2009, 00:11
Slayer army...

*shudder*

W0lf
17-03-2009, 00:16
I never consider the storm of chaos armies for this kind of thing.

Its obvious they were made broken to increase sales of what were largely metal armies that people knew wouldnt last.

O&G'sRule
17-03-2009, 00:18
I never had a problem with bretonians, but then if you have lots of fanatics allowing no armour saves then you wouldn't. Ah they were fun, and 2d6 S7 hits per 40pt snotling pumpwagon

Neknoh
17-03-2009, 00:27
Appart from the two mentioned, I would say the armies were actually rather balanced in that book, even the Cult of Slaanesh wasn't all bad. But them slayers.... ¤shudders¤

Bac5665
17-03-2009, 01:04
Slayers, Demonic Legions, Errantry List, Eshin list, none of these were remotely reasonable. SoC was simply a mess, and I'm glad its overwith. (Though I do miss cult of Slaanesh.)

SuperArchMegalon
17-03-2009, 01:05
Yeah, I figured SoC would come up often enough that I mentioned it in the original post. Obviously some of those lists were ridiculous.

Lestat
17-03-2009, 09:10
I'll go with power armies from the ed I started in and that not many people have had any dealing with. Third.

Army 1 wood elves.

Back in 3rd there where for some strange reason 2 movements phases. A movement phase at the start and a reserves phase at the end of the turn.
In more modern eds, this was gotten rid off by the march move.
But back in the day you could legally move, shoot, then move back in to cover.
This was partically broken with welves, who where back then one of the best missile armies in the game. But they also had their woods don't give them any penatilies rule.
So put unit of archers in woods. Move from woods. Shoot. Move back into the woods, so no bugger can get you back. = Profit.
Also they had some of the best combat drops around, in the form of wardancers.
These guys could do all kinds of crazy stuff back in 3rd ed.
First ok combat = draw. No blows or nothing are struck. You just draw.
The old favroite whirling death = double you attacks. You could charge over your own and enemy units. You could do a taunt that made the enemy have to charge you. Could wear any armour. And by raw could do all this from the back of a horse or even a dragon if they wanted.
And to add to all this any character in the wood elf army could be a wardancer (including mages) for a total of 20 points.

My second choice would be high elves.

Reasons.
1. Dragons are troop choices.
2. Could have limited (ie not as many as wood elves) wardancers (but all characters could be as well).
3. Insane magic. 3rd ed high elves really where the kings of magic. It was perfectly legal for high elves to use ANY type of magic that was avaible.
Which could lead to things such as, a high elf army with a blood thirster. A couple of high elf mages raising their own undead horde. Or a single wizard opening a vorpal hurricane of chaos and sucking up half your army, and you not able to do anything about.
To be honest magic itself was completely broken in 3rd, but high elves where the best at it.

And lastly chaos.

Now the army itself wasn't to different to what we have today. Basic troops as hard as other races heros. But they did have their weakness (very high cost for 1) and the army itself wasn't to broken.
Until you got to the nice little rule about chaos mutations.
Whilst I personally look back and smile at my old chaos warband days, I have to admit it makes doc of today look weak.
Whilst there where some mutations that did nothing at all, and even a couple which hindered you (I do remember once in a 40K game where my enemy rolled moronic for his devastater squad, leaving them unable to use even a single knife, never mind their las-cannons), but in the main even the general ones gave you a nice boost (something like beastial face the most comman you could get, gave +1A) whilst some of them completely broke the game, making characters that where completely untouchable.
And amazingly every single chaos player who didn't roll them infront of you got the best results (honest I rolled chaos lord and rapid regeneration)(chaos lord gave you basically +d3 to all stats, some extra free drops, a magic sword, magic armour and a magic level, whilst rapid regeneration, works like regeneration today, but instead you rolled 2 dice instead of 1 and 1 off them needed to be 4+).

Lordsaradain
17-03-2009, 11:51
WE and bretonnia were the top dogs in the 6th edition. Skaven SAD was great too.
And Chaos was pretty high up too with their great variety of choices.

Back then, O&G were highly playable, and could be really good too, unlike their current incantation.