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bagobitz
16-03-2009, 05:25
I was thinking about starting Tomb Kings for my first fantasy army. Are they really as bad as everyone says they are?

Foegnasher
16-03-2009, 05:33
yes.

but this time next year you will be getting a shiney new army book and everyone will be screaming about how broken and unstoppable tehy are. so start collecting now, so you can saw you were a player way back when...

i'm kidding. (mostly) they are tricky to use. they live and die in the magic phase so someone with a ton of dispel dice will own you.

PopeAlexanderVI
16-03-2009, 05:51
A post I wrote on another forum:


I had to shelve them after finding them almost unplayable in the current army environment in our area (mostly 7th edition books).

There are just too many things the army has no way of dealing with, even inconsistently. Best example is the Star Dragon, which catapults can't even wound. Good luck getting one of your overpriced M4 blocks into anything like that.

These days there are all sorts of things around that can consistently beat static res and have good enough saves that RnF won't wound them. The way most games end up you're relying on your catapults to deal with lots of targets you're otherwise unable to touch. Even with perfect range guesses catapults are inaccurate.

Even fighting infantry is a struggle, now so many basic infantry (Marauders, Saurus) have stats that an expensive skeleton block can't win a combat unsupported. You end up needing to use 450 points of your stuff (chariots primarily) to break enemy infantry. If your opponent can take our your support units you'll just be sitting around and waiting to get ground down.

Some examples of the things TK can't handle without either substantial luck an inordinate amount of resources:

-Steam Tank
-Flamers, Greater Daemons
-Hydra
-Chaos Knights
-Dragons, especially Star Dragons
-The whole VC army book
-Saurus Warriors

SuperArchMegalon
16-03-2009, 08:08
That's pretty harsh.

Everyone knows playing TK is an uphill battle. I wouldn't worry much about that because they'll have a new book some time soon. The only concern you should have is that TK misses out on a significant portion of the game (psychology) so you won't learn its ins & outs until you get your hands on another army.

If the TK theme and models are what jump out at you, by all means go for it.

havoc626
16-03-2009, 08:48
I think that TK are still a playable army, as I've seen one of the locals do brilliantly with them at my local club, and that was against a player that started around the same time he did, but with VC.

They do, however, take a lot to win with. They rely on a lot more tactics and familiarity with the game than most other armies, due to their low statline and high point cost. As a recommendation, start with another army, even if it is a small one, and get used to the system.

I originally planned on starting TK for my first, but after a bit of thought, I decided to start a small Skaven army and the go TK once I was used to the game. Now, I'm a dedicated Skaven player and I love my little rats.

Red_Duke
16-03-2009, 11:36
Definitely not one of the easier armies to begin warhammer with, they're probably my favourite army to play with, and i really do like the really quite fluid movement they're capable of (well, unless you're under magic lockdown that is). Personally if i was just starting off, id probably go with an empire army, as its one of the best in terms of being able to do pretty much everything, plus its now pretty much entirely in plastic (and will be even more so in a few months time). However, if you're just starting you're going to find it a bit of an uphill struggle whatever you use, so sometimes you really are just better off starting with an army you like and are going to be enthusiastic about.

madden
16-03-2009, 12:34
To take down large living things ie dragons just use poision archers as they always hit on 5s they are excellent but the army it's self is hard to master but worth it when you do.

Max_Killfactor
16-03-2009, 13:08
They really are an army that is difficult to start, but once you get the hang of them, they can be very good. We have a good TK player in our group, he does much better with them than he does with his HE or WoC.

I think the biggest problem TK players have is designing their armies. The best TK armies I've seen play defensive. 2 SSCs and 2-3 scorpions are essential. You must have a strong magic phase too. If an opponent can shut down your magic, you are the slowest army in the game, with below average combat and shooting. If your opponent cannot shut down your magic, you are one of the most manuverable armies out there, with some of the best shooting in the game. Dual SSCs with shooting incantion spam is nasty. Scorpions make great scroll caddie or mage assassins. They can kill warmachines or casters, which will help you sit back on your opponent.

If you are very careful when designing your lists and plan ahead your casting sequence, you will do fine. They are definitely not an easy army (and half their units are not worth taking) but they can hold their own with any army out there if played well.

snottlebocket
16-03-2009, 13:10
One of the problems tomb kings face that the majority of armies are played so heavily these days, that even people who don't play magic heavy themselfs, bring a huge amount of magic defence.

So practically no matter what your magic phase is going to get ruined, which makes playing tomb kings just about impossible.

The SkaerKrow
16-03-2009, 13:19
Tomb Kings are a true expert's army. They have all of the tools to win games, but the application of these elements is often subtle and relies on your ability to maximize the synergy between your magic phase and your movement, shooting and close combat. To be sure, Tomb Kings might struggle against Dragon and Monster lists, but that's hardly a fair indictment of the army considering that nearly everyone struggles against such opponents.

You would do well to chat up some veteran TK players. They're sure to have some tricks that you wouldn't notice from just reading the army book.

TomcatBG
16-03-2009, 14:08
well i play TK and yeah they are kinda hard to play with but i really play with them caz i love how they look donno why they are just kinda cool and you don't need to know much of the rules like Terror for affecting your army,you just need to know what it does to remind your opponent =D

Gazak Blacktoof
16-03-2009, 14:16
I found that a proper deployment plan and a good choice of units helped. However there's not much you can really do to overcome an overpowering magic defence other than maximising the amount of magic you bring which means taking a high liche priest and avoiding the icon bearer.

Taking fast troops instead of infantry can help you avoid slowing to a crawl but because the army can't flee and doesn't hit that hard using frontal charges there are a lot of builds that the army will struggle with.

EDIT:
Lastly, chariots are a poor choice of mount for characters, they can be auto-destroyed by Strength 7 or greater hits and are generally easy to kill, much easier than those of other armies.

Godswildcard
16-03-2009, 14:29
Undead Ancient Egyptians = Pure Awesome!

They are a tough army, no doubts there. They are in dire need of a re-vamp to bring them up to speed with the other army books out there. Tomb Kings are not a forgiving army, and any mistakes you make will be dearly paid for.
That said, we do have an unusually large bag of tricks to pull from, which can mean tons of fun ways to see the surprised looks of your opponents. We can effectively give our Ushabti an 18" charge range. One of the nastiest units in the game can burrow underground and pop up right behind enemy lines and war machines. For 110 points you get a stone thrower that has flaming attacks and causes panic tests. There are so many magic-throwing items in the book its hard to remember everything you have at your disposal in the magic phase.
Even VC and DE struggle to shut down our magic. we don't have the most powerful spells, no, but we can throw more down in one phase than our opponent can block. I love seeing our local DE player get flustered after he has used ALL of his dice and dispell scrolls in the first turn, and that I'm still going to cast X becuase I have another liche priest! That is nothing but win right there.
There are downsides, moreso than normal, but there are some serious upsides to.

Gazak Blacktoof
16-03-2009, 14:44
Playing against tomb kings I've found that the magic phase is manageable. There are very few spells its necessary to dispel. In the opening turns its bonus catapult shots and carrion movement. In later turns its flank charges from chariots and cavalry.

The tomb kings army has to be setup in a very strict manner to increase the chance that the spells you want can be to be forced through.

Godswildcard
16-03-2009, 15:01
With banners, magic items, incantations, etc, etc...

You're going to have a VERY difficult time keeping up. Most TK players make the mistake of playing more deffensively, which results in our magic becoming 'manageable'. My tactic is to take advantage of this stereotype, and run a more offensively minded list. Now you have to decide what you're wanting to go off, becuase your are probably in range of ALL of my offensive spells, and by turn 2 you are in charge range of ALL of my hammer units. You will be charged, in addition to all of my bound items. If Ushabti Charge anything that doesn't have ASF, it will die. It doesn't really matter what it is. My Ushabti have killed greater demons, dragons, giants, stegs, vampire lords, etc, etc...

The downside: Since TK are so , shall we say, crumbly, an offensive list will struggle if you don't play each unit in harmony with another unit. But, since that is a problem with TK in general, it is not so much an issue.

But, I am in agreence (sp?) with Blacktoof 100% on the deployment/setup importance for TK. It is CRITICAL that your deployment be well thought out and executed, or the game could very well be over before it begins.

Bloodhunter
16-03-2009, 15:49
I think Tomb kings are very cool, with ace miniatures, but it can be difficult to play with.

If you like them very much you could start collecting them until the new book arrives, else maybe it's better to choose another faction.

Zoolander
16-03-2009, 21:45
A post I wrote on another forum:


I had to shelve them after finding them almost unplayable in the current army environment in our area (mostly 7th edition books).

There are just too many things the army has no way of dealing with, even inconsistently. Best example is the Star Dragon, which catapults can't even wound. Good luck getting one of your overpriced M4 blocks into anything like that.

These days there are all sorts of things around that can consistently beat static res and have good enough saves that RnF won't wound them. The way most games end up you're relying on your catapults to deal with lots of targets you're otherwise unable to touch. Even with perfect range guesses catapults are inaccurate.

Even fighting infantry is a struggle, now so many basic infantry (Marauders, Saurus) have stats that an expensive skeleton block can't win a combat unsupported. You end up needing to use 450 points of your stuff (chariots primarily) to break enemy infantry. If your opponent can take our your support units you'll just be sitting around and waiting to get ground down.

Some examples of the things TK can't handle without either substantial luck an inordinate amount of resources:

-Steam Tank
-Flamers, Greater Daemons
-Hydra
-Chaos Knights
-Dragons, especially Star Dragons
-The whole VC army book
-Saurus Warriors

Truth! 100% accurate. Right now, I reckon TK are at the bottom of the barrel along with their good friends, the OK.

Gazak Blacktoof
16-03-2009, 22:01
Most TK players make the mistake of playing more deffensively, which results in our magic becoming 'manageable'.

That's quite funny as I've found the opposite to be true. I find that tomb kings struggle on the offencive as its hard work to keep your army moving across the board at a steady pace whilst the only hated combo that I've seen mentioned for tomb kings is one involving two catapults attempting to double shoot every turn.

Naturally there's a modicum of aggressive defence needed in any defencive strategy as you need to combat enemy war machines, shooters and attempt to slow the opposing army down but obviously an army built around double skull chukkas certainly can't be classified as an offencive force.

I've found that double skull chukkas results in you being to draw out dispel scrolls in the early game, that might otherwise be held back until the crucial mid game phases, when you need to get your magical charges off to actually win the game.

PopeAlexanderVI
16-03-2009, 22:14
Some of the people talking up TK in here are being sort of unrealistic. Especially the guy whose saying that Ushabti are a useful unit.

They're not worth taking at all-- if an opponent has any shooting at all, even just St3, they'll be taken out quickly. Also, they aren't even that good at killing.

Unit of 4 Against a Hydra (keep in mind the Ushabti unit costs 85 points more than Hydra): 12 attacks, 6 hit, 4 wound, 2 regenerated. Hydra attacks back, 5 hits with Hatred, 3.5 wounds. Beastmasters get 5.3 hits, 1.5 wounds.

Against a Bloodthirster (which he claimed to have killed): 1.6 wounds done on the charge (hard to get against a flyer) and Thirster does 5.7 wounds back.

Even getting the charge, which usually won't happen without an incantation due to low MV, the Ushabti lose combat badly. Sure you can bring them back, but if you're using your incantations to try and regen units you're losing the game. Also, Ushabti take a special slot that's needed for Tomb Scorpions, Tomb Guard, and Carrion.

I think the extent to which TK are playable has a lot to do with the playing environment in your area. If lots of people are using the older books (Dwarves, Empire, O+G, OK, anything 6th Ed) or making very weak lists with the newer books then TK are fine. But if people are bringing tournament level lists with anything released after Daemons then you're not going to be even playably competitive.

W A L 5 H Y
16-03-2009, 22:18
I would say that TKs are a true Pros army. You'll need a lot of experience to master them on your own.

But if you know a decent TK player, ask for some help in writing your list and in your first few game,

IMO their one of the coolest armies (looks) and i do enjoy Proxying my high elves once in a while with my mates lol

PopeAlexanderVI
16-03-2009, 22:26
Another note on TK in the current environment:

The problem with the TK magic phase right now isn't that it can be outright shut down: even with the proliferation of magic defense most people don't have the DD/Scrolls to stop a King and 3 Priests. The issue is that all of the TK spells have such a short range, If you're attempting to flank with something you're rarely going to have more than 2 priests in range of the unit you need to move (if you do you're either dangerously exposing your priests or deploying too compactly). It's easy to stop those 1-2 key incantations a turn if you've got 5 DD/Scroll, especially if you're familiar with Hieratic Order and other TK magic rules. Good players understand that the extra catapult shots aren't that big of a deal, they'll use their dice on your charges.

I'm not a bad player, I have a successful record with other armies. But with TK you have a book that:

-Have all the weaknesses of Undead with none of the buffs VC got

-None of the tactical options VC have for dealing with big monsters or chainsaw units (ie. Zombies/Van Hels)

-Low WS across the board. Your basic troops won't be winning combats. Your Elite troops won't win against other elites.

-Relies on magic that's easily stopped by an aware, tactically intelligent opponent.

-Where other than characters there are only 2 units that have better than Str4. And both of them have huge issues that ensure they're rarely taken in "competitive" TK lists (Ushabti already mentioned, Bone Giant should be obvious).

rottahn
17-03-2009, 07:54
TK armies are fun if you like the feel of the army, and the look. they are in the middle of the pack as far as power is concerned. they arent broken, but they can be devastating if used correctly. PM me, if you want to know a really good 2,000 or 2250 list.