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Ultimo ninja
17-03-2009, 17:43
1. What do you expect your maruader blocks to do in a typical game?

2. Do you consider a chaos lord on dragon in a 2000 list

a)viable
b)cheesey
c)effective for cost


3. Anyone have ideas on a cool proxy for the hellcannon?
Bonus question:

What is the skaven SAD list made up of?

Lord Malorne
17-03-2009, 17:46
1:Nothing
2:c
3:If you are cheeky a tyranid biovore.

LordofWar1986
17-03-2009, 17:50
1. I see them usually used as a static CR block to support the warriors/chosen.

2. None of the above. IMO Chaos Lord on Dragon is far too expensive in that size of game.

3. I can see like converting like a demon type of guy holding a skull-esque tube of chaos-ness. I don't think it would make a good proxy, but good conversion/kit bash.

Makaber
17-03-2009, 17:54
1) I use large blocks with armour and shield, and put expensive characters in them. I expect them to not die stupidly much, and contribute static CR to the hitting power of the character. They're cheap enough to field en masse, and the other units I use don't really need character support (Knights, Dragon Ogres, Horsemen, Hounds).

2) Not really cheesy, because it'll cost nearly half your army. And it's not a bad deal either, because it's frighteningly fast and will chew through almost anything.

Now, people will tell you it's cheesy because it's a bit tricky to deal with, but seriously, for 750 points, it ought to be. And if you pit the rest of the armies against each other, your opponent can spare that same amount of points to deal with it with. And you can get a lot of anti dragon units for 750 points.

Also, people will tell you it's bad because you can shoot it down with a single cannon shot. Well duh. However, the cannon is extremely stationary, and the dragon is extremely mobile, so barring bad luck with panic or overruns, if the dragon gets shot by a cannon, it's your own damn fault. After all, you put it where it was in a position to get shot. It's not like the cannon cunningly hunted you down or anything.

3) A proxy? No cool ones, no. I've seen various silly alternative models, but nothing close to the size of the actual Hellcannon model. If you need a proxy to see how it works, just use another war machine (it's not likely to get confused with anything else in the army, after all). If you want an alternate model for the Hellcannon, I don't see why. The Hellcannon model is pretty sweet.

Kburn
17-03-2009, 18:16
2) Not really cheesy, because it'll cost nearly half your army. And it's not a bad deal either, because it's frighteningly fast and will chew through almost anything.

Now, people will tell you it's cheesy because it's a bit tricky to deal with, but seriously, for 750 points, it ought to be. And if you pit the rest of the armies against each other, your opponent can spare that same amount of points to deal with it with. And you can get a lot of anti dragon units for 750 points.

Also, people will tell you it's bad because you can shoot it down with a single cannon shot. Well duh. However, the cannon is extremely stationary, and the dragon is extremely mobile, so barring bad luck with panic or overruns, if the dragon gets shot by a cannon, it's your own damn fault. After all, you put it where it was in a position to get shot. It's not like the cannon cunningly hunted you down or anything.


I'm just asking because I'm new to the game. How do you exactly avoid the cannons? Don't they have a 60" range? The easiest way I can think of is just take 1 cannon shot then rush into combat, which is not too good, but a necessary sacrifice all in all.

Also, I've not experienced cannons yet, however, their rules on bounce and all that makes them seem very unreliable to shoot dragons down, but I might be wrong, so what's your experience on that?

Malorian
17-03-2009, 18:20
Kburn, if you play with a good amount of terrain it is possible to about LOS to cannons, but overall (if you ever plan on getting him into combat) the cannon(s) are going to get at least one good shot.

Makaber
17-03-2009, 19:29
You hide the dragon behind hills, woods, and buildings, basically. Also, remember that you can't get shot at when you're in close combat.

Also, it's important to remember that the most important asset of a dragon isn't the damage it does, but the damage it has potential of doing. It's just too damn scary to ignore, and mobile enough to threaten a huge area. Using it simply for its damage would be squandering its potential in my eyes. Use it to threaten units, force the flow of the battle, utilize the threat it poses to make your opponent expose himself to your other units.

Of course, this will not work against an extremely static gunline. In that case, don't throw the dragon away on some futile head on assault. You don't have to play the ball into their hands.

The best advice I can give is to try it out. If you're even vaguely interested in the painting and modelling part of the hobby, getting a dragon is reward enough in itself.

Neckutter
17-03-2009, 21:06
my marauder blocks dont do anything. in fact my 20 block of flail marauders recently broke in combat to 10 crossbow wielding dwarves with shields. it was pretty sad. however they are a core choice for 120ish points, which is what they do. plus it makes your army not look as small as it really is.

Axis
17-03-2009, 23:38
Marauder blocks can be ablative wounds for you wizards. I only made the mistake of using lone wizards against lizardmen with terradons once.

dread lord
17-03-2009, 23:42
1. What do you expect your maruader blocks to do in a typical game?

I play an all mounted army so they dont preform hehe

If they were fielded I woud expect them to preform porly



2. Do you consider a chaos lord on dragon in a 2000 list

a)viable
b)cheesey
c)effective for cost


D) none of the above :
I woud expect it to chase its tail or be cost ineffective



3. Anyone have ideas on a cool proxy for the hellcannon?


the tyranid byovore sounds cool

Bonus question:



What is the skaven SAD list made up of?


Humm Im gona go with Maximum warlocks, maximum ratling guns, maximum jezzails, maximum warplightning cannons

that is some thing like
a grey seer with Warpstone Charm, Eye of the Horned Rat and tenebrous Cloak, 3 warlocks with the Stormdaemon, a warpscroll and a few dispel scrolls.

4 units of 20 clanrats with Ratling Guns, standards and musicians.

20 Jezzails, split in 4 units of 5.

2 Warplighrning cannons.

this might be off a bit since i dont concider my self to be overly compitent regarding skaven

Orcboy_Phil
17-03-2009, 23:47
1) Nowt, I use Horsemen instead. Better models and more useful.

2) None of the above, use Galruach instead and make monkey cry.

3) Nothing, the Hellcannon has chaos dwarfs therefore nothing can top it for coolness excpet possible the earthshaker cannon, then you have big hats. The bigger the hat the cooler the dwarf. All hail big hats.

Bonus:
4 x 20 Clanrats with ratling guns
20 x Jezzials split into 4 units of 5
3 x Warplock engis
1 x Grey seer on screaming bell
2 x Warpligtening cannons. Spend the rest of your points on a Storm deamon and a couple of scrolls. Also see about boosting the units of rats to 24 each. There much better then

W0lf
17-03-2009, 23:56
1. What do you expect your maruader blocks to do in a typical game?

Bimble about and watch the chaos knights kill everything whilst occasionally getting involved in CC and acting as pin cushions. I like to take 2x 20 as a min. Makes me feel like i have an army lol.

They do seem to have a habbit of beating up plaguebearers though :wtf: dont ask...


2. Do you consider a chaos lord on dragon in a 2000 list

a)viable
b)cheesey
c)effective for cost

Its viable and effective. Not cheesy for WoC to have a dragon. I do however consider it a great waste of potential. Sorc on dragon with runesword > Lord.


3. Anyone have ideas on a cool proxy for the hellcannon?

I second the biovore idea i saw elsewhere. Maybe a daemon prince with a cannon in its stomach or something?


Bonus question:

What is the skaven SAD list made up of?

Usually 14 PD, 20 or so jezzails, 2 warplightning cannons and a few ratling guns. Its pretty hard for WoC to deal with tbh due to abundant cheap march blockers and inbuilt magic defence.

Kburn
18-03-2009, 01:29
Thanks for the answers, also, sorry about the topic hijack. What would you guys arm your chaos lord on dragon with? I gave him a crown, runesword and shield, and it has worked well so far. Is that a good combination?

Also, my earlier question again, due to bounce, range and other stuff like misfires, it seems as if using a cannon to hit a dragon, which is a single model, is pretty hard. Am I right or wrong on this? I've never faced a cannon so far. Also, most cannons deal D3 wounds, so its not too bad anyway, is this true?

Also, my 2 cents on marauder blocks. I don't see them working well with a dragon. All mounted seems to work better with WoC rather than foot sloggers. Like the rest said, they're good for nothing or as ablative wounds for wizards...which isn't really worth it...

Kerill
18-03-2009, 03:54
1) To be threatening enough for my opponent to need to take them out, to die if he does allocate sufficient resources but give up few points when they do. Against some armies I'll deploy them as an 18 wide meatshield. I disagree they are good for nothing, I run 18 with MOK, great weapon and champion. Dishing out 13 S5 attacks in combat, 2 ranks and generally US if they get the charge they can't be safely ignored. Part of my mop up brigade. Otherwise 20/24 with slaanesh and shields is a cheap static CR and mage bunker unit. If you have a lot of mages in it then it can hit quite well too. Units of 10 marauders with flails (maybe slaanesh too) are cheap flanker units.

2) I'd rather a sorceror lord on a dragon, much better synergy and less pressure to get points back in combat (and radiance is even nicer) although chaos lord on a dragon with book of secrets, 2 scrolls, golden eye and a flail might be ok as well for a bit of multitasking.

3) Anything, I've seen an empire cannon with a warrior standard top on it which would be a cheap option. A spawn with a cannon for an arm/on its back etc.

@Kburn, that combination seems fine. Most cannons do D6 wounds since you are most likely to face Empire great cannons or a dwarf one with a master engineer in it. But yes it's easy to miss a dragon with a cannon, especially if its on a 50*50 base (chariot base like the high elf one is easier to hit head on or diagonally although unless you want it to charge next turn you can present its flank to cannons. Marauder blocks don't work well with a dragon I agree, but I'd still take one to stick mages in.



Chariot base dragon is also easier to hit with a rock lobber.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
18-03-2009, 04:20
SNIP
Also, my earlier question again, due to bounce, range and other stuff like misfires, it seems as if using a cannon to hit a dragon, which is a single model, is pretty hard. Am I right or wrong on this? I've never faced a cannon so far. Also, most cannons deal D3 wounds, so its not too bad anyway, is this true?
SNIP

Real cannons do d6 wounds and people who play with them for a while [any dwarf or empire player] will generally be pretty good at guessing 6-8" short of your model so that it is likely to be hit with the bounce [barring misfires of course, the oddity of the 2", 2" bounce and its ilk]. Even Dwarf stonethrowers [goblobbers] can be quite accurate. Still, once you have a dragon on the field, no guts, no glory.

"When thunder sounds on a cloudless day, even dragon know fear."
Helgi Asgrimsson, Dwarf Engineer

Ultimo ninja
18-03-2009, 16:16
Whoa! Thanks for the response guys.....this is great!

Well, since the marauder models are kind of ugly and dated looking, Im going to use flaggelants with dark elf warrior heads with swords and shields in a cultist of khorne theme.

The lord on dragon.... I think I will buy/build/field this...but I think ill go for a jug lord and disc bsb first, and use the dragon in 3000 games only.

As for the hellcannon..... Maybe ill just make a cool chaos giant, since the idea of building and panting the hellcannon kit scares me. I might just skip rares and put those 2-300 pts into characters/core.

Bac5665
18-03-2009, 16:33
Dragons are always cheesy in 2250, (with the possible exception of the Dragon Mage, but even then...)

Makaber
18-03-2009, 17:12
No, seriously, if there's one thing that really irks me, it's the attitude that a Dragon is somehow "cheesy" just because it's expensive. Please, explain to me why you believe so. It's seven hundred and fifty points. Seven hundred and fifty.

W0lf
18-03-2009, 17:14
Because alot of armies dont have counters to them.

A dragon played by a brilliant general is hell for alot of players.

selone
18-03-2009, 17:22
I was talking about this to resident Mr chaos redben, about trying to use Marauders in a WoC army. For 4 points they seem at first pretty good (WS4, I4 , reroll panic), they have a range of options available to them and look to provide needed cheap support. After playing a couple of games they seem to get left behind and suffer an ignomious fate (ran off by a unit of Brett archers, paniced of by arrer boyz, etc). Now bearing in mind they come in the battalion box and thus a lot of people will have them, how do you make them work?

Kerill- If you run them with MoK and GW's you're starting to up their points a bit aren't you? For a t3, no armour save, m4, has to declare charge troop that is. Also how can you have two ranks and be a unit of 18, 18" wide?

Sam skywalker
18-03-2009, 19:12
Surely it would only be 9" wide?

Lol at the thought of fielding that... I may just try it.. I hate my marauders! They are points out of my warriors fund!

Kerill
18-03-2009, 19:13
I was talking about this to resident Mr chaos redben, about trying to use Marauders in a WoC army. For 4 points they seem at first pretty good (WS4, I4 , reroll panic), they have a range of options available to them and look to provide needed cheap support. After playing a couple of games they seem to get left behind and suffer an ignomious fate (ran off by a unit of Brett archers, paniced of by arrer boyz, etc). Now bearing in mind they come in the battalion box and thus a lot of people will have them, how do you make them work?

Kerill- If you run them with MoK and GW's you're starting to up their points a bit aren't you? For a t3, no armour save, m4, has to declare charge troop that is. Also how can you have two ranks and be a unit of 18, 18" wide?

128 points (132 when I can afford a musician), doesn't break the bank, and no standard means that's all they give away.

They go 6 wide normally, 3 ranks deep (so +2 bonus).

I only plan to use them 18 wide against certain magic gunlines (Teclis with lore of metal, horror heavy Tzeentch daemons) since a cheap meatshield is the only defence that works for long enough to get units in close. Hounds simply can't screen 5/6knights against magic gunlines unless they are 7/8 wide (and even then its a risk) and who takes hounds in units larger than 5?

I used to run a core-heavy Tzeentch daemon list and 3/4 bolts of change with 2 turns of casting wrecks any elite and WOC don't have the magic defence without list tailoring and adding a bucketload of scrolls.

Them being baited isn't something I worry about unless I make a big error in deployment (which I did last battle ;) ) since they are part of the second wave/mop up (along with warriors) by this point the opponents support troops should be dead (generally along with mine).

The help fill the centre of the field and (hopefully) prevent my opponent from being able to divert too much attention to the knights. When they and warriors are threat enough to many things.

Marauders aren't a game winning unit by any means but they are cheap enough to be a useful one IMO.

At the start of 7th edition I had three units of marauders as an infantry line and it simply didn't work (low Ld, bsb usually busy elsewhere in my list, banner of the gods aside marauders simply can't hold the line), but added to the mix with other stuff I think they are decent.

Partly though I'm trying to find a working alternative to 4 units of knights for an all-comers list, using different troop types to keep WOC fairly interesting. I'm even planning to add a unit of forsaken to my army, still to see if it will pan out.

selone
18-03-2009, 19:46
Fair point and kudos to you for trying it out :) Certainly you should be applauded from deviating from the 'typical' tourny build.