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Xynok
18-03-2009, 01:48
Are champions useful for the points? I don't see the point but someone said they're very useful. Just wondering if anyone thinks they're worth it and if so, why?

Taekada
18-03-2009, 02:07
Champions are usefull for two things IMHO

A) Taking challenges and protecting other characters.

B) Extra atacks.

If you need more attacks from your front rank, or have characters you need to protect then Champions are for you !

Champions are really good in small units ( or narow frontage ) but may not always be needed.

Static infantry blocks that dont rely on killing for their combat res, or will not be transporting a character can surrvive without them.

Champions can be a liability against Meteors of destruction ( characters on flying mounts/ monstrous mounts ) or against really killy units as they can get slaughtered in challenges.

I always take Champions in my units cause It grants me the flecibility to where I put my mages an thus grants them some challenge protection.

Hope that helps.

Greg "signatureles" Paradis


Are champions useful for the points? I don't see the point but someone said they're very useful. Just wondering if anyone thinks they're worth it and if so, why?

Sirroelivan
18-03-2009, 08:29
I mainly use champions when faced with characters. You issue a challenge, due to the fact that most champions have the same stats (excluding the one attack) as the rank-and-file, the number of wounds he takes is going to be the same as the unit would have suffered. Only now, more of your guys survived, so you get more attacks back.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
18-03-2009, 11:47
I just started playing Skaven and I don't understand the idea of using champions to protect your characters.

For example, say I'm playing with Dark Elves and I field a BSB w/Banner of Nagarythe mounted on a Cold One and field him in a unit of Cold Ones; then I will always give said unit a unit champion since the unit champion can accept challenges from any enemy characters meaning the BSB is protected, relatively, and able to stay in the front rank, allowing the unit and other friendly units around him for that matter to benefit from his and the banner's abilities. Also 3 WS6 S6 attacks with hatred on the charge isn't that bad either so my BSB will probably be generating additional close combat resolution through kills.

With Skaven on the other hand, the "lead from the back rule" and the fact that characters can leave units in combat means I am grateful when an enemy character challenges one of mine since I can put him to the back where he is protected but still gives all his bonuses to the unit he is in, apart from his attacks ofcourse, and has the option of leaving the unit. Now you may argue that if the character was for example, a Warlord, and you did this, then you would lose attacks that could generate more close combat resolution, however, in most cases the resolution generated here will most likely be cancelled out by the overkill on your champion.

I hope the following example has helped illustrate why I believe champions in units are not needed and are a waste of points. I may be however, ignorant to the heavily close combat orientated Skaven armies out there and if those or any other players could let me know instances in which a champion is useful I would be interested.

Sirroelivan
18-03-2009, 12:04
As I said in my previous post, champions serve a role as well in protecting your units and ensuring you get more attacks back.

PeG
18-03-2009, 12:11
and to protect characters that wants to be in the first rank (combat characters instead of LD characters and characters in single rank units). Having said that I often play my LD providing characters naked in the back rank especially in smaller games.
and of course when playing something that is easy to kill your opponent may challenge to prevent you from killing RnF and having a champion lets you kill them anyway.

mithrandir
18-03-2009, 14:19
Champions are fielded for all of the aforementioned reasons, especially character protection in a Skaven army. Although the rule for leading from behind is quite useful, especially for a BSB with the Warbanner, think 'bout it:D

leighr3029
19-03-2009, 07:05
someone mentioned it isnīt always nessesary for rats. the only unit i wouldnīt do it for is slaves. i think it is absolutely nessesary for the rest as they stop the normal rats from being killed. quite heroic for skaven really. however it could be looked at as the rest of them pushing the strongest into combat with the biggest enemy they can find (afterall their status goes up when he dies)

havoc626
19-03-2009, 07:20
The reason that Skaven champions are great to have in any squad is that, if there is a character in the squad and a challenge is issued by the opponent, the Skaven player is allowed to refuse the challenge AND pick which of the models get sent to the back. In any other army, the opponent is allowed to pick the model that is sent to the back.

This is good as you won't lose any bonus that the character gives you, such as those extra/stronger attacks. That is why Skaven champoins are worth the points.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
19-03-2009, 13:22
As I said in my previous post, champions serve a role as well in protecting your units and ensuring you get more attacks back.

Yeh you've got to love a couple of WS3 S3 attacks back. Forget static combat resolution - I'll be fielding my Skaven in units of 20 from now on and I'll give them spears as well.

Xynok
19-03-2009, 17:38
I use spears but only in one unit, blocks of 20 are pointless as you lose rank bonus way too quickly and also panic too quickly. 25/30 is better. Anyway thanks for all the replies, i'll probably take them and be a pest if the enemy challenges me by bouncing heroes to the back of their unit :D Cowardice is the way forward

dariakus
19-03-2009, 18:00
I believe there was some sarcasm missed there :)

Anyway, I never use champions in Clanrat or Slave units, only in my Plague Monks. One Clanrat champion = 5 slaves. Guess which one I'd rather have for the horde :) I do include standard bearers and musicians in the Clanrat units, though. I'm on the fence about musicians in slaves. Currently I'm running without them. I've run with them, but the difference between rallying on a 2 or a 3 just doesn't seem worth it. I prefer to set my slaves up for failure.

Bum
19-03-2009, 18:33
After trying champs for a while, the extra attack rarely does anything and most of my characters happily hide in the back to keep them cheap and nearly invulnerable. Locks will probably kill themselves anyway but I try to get them out of units before it gets too dicey.

Plus for warlord/chief LD bubbles if the unit isn't going to kill the character you can always bring him up front after the first round to score some kills.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
21-03-2009, 10:23
the difference between rallying on a 2 or a 3 just doesn't seem worth it

I give the two units of slaves in the centre of my battline musicians since there is a notable difference statistically between testing to rally on LD6 (Grey Seer's LD) and LD7 (Grey Seer's LD modified by musician). For my slaves on the flanks though, I agree, it it isn't worth it.