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View Full Version : Complaints about having to use GW products in GW stores (was: "Fallen Giant Template)



Avian
12-12-2005, 11:55
This just in from Alliance Games:

++WARHAMMER 40,000+++

GAW 47-34 Warhammer 40K: Imperial Guard Vostroyan Platoon $90.00
GAW 51-13 Warhammer 40K: Tyranid Lictor Death Leaper $25.00
GAW 51-14 Warhammer 40K: Tyranid Biovore $20.00
GAW 56-15 Warhammer 40K: Tau Sniper Drone Team $25.00
GAW 56-18 Warhammer 40K: Tau Aun Va Master of the Undying Spider $30.00
GAW 56-19 Warhammer 40K: Tau Piranha $25.00
GAW 56-20 Warhammer 40K: Tau Vespid Stingwings Command $30.00
GAW 56-47 Warhammer 40K: Tau Vespid Stingwings

++WARHAMMER++

GAW 09-43 Lord of the Rings: Dwarf Command $10.00
GAW 65-06 Warhammer Fantasy Battle: Fallen Giant Template $6.00

++LORD OF THE RINGS++

GAW 09-12 Lord of the Rings: Khandish Charioteer $20.00
GAW 09-40 Lord of the Rings: Eorl the Young (on Foot & Mounted) $20.00

:wtf:

Jedi152
12-12-2005, 12:00
Nice one GW. :rolleyes:

Sneaky way to up the price of the new giant.

Niibl
12-12-2005, 12:07
It's NYA-status. I wonder if the template will be used with the 7th edition after GW seems to enjoy replacing templates with auto-hit dicerolls.
Until I know more about this I will use cardboard.

Insane Alex
12-12-2005, 12:07
Oh my! This is rich.

Yanos
12-12-2005, 12:11
Until I know more about this I will use cardboard.
Heh, likewise! I can see many a gamer descending on the poor few who buy this travesty, armed with card, pencil and scissors! :D

neXus6
12-12-2005, 12:22
Always have and always will use the model as the template for my Giant falling, that has always made more sense to me than using a template that is way to small. :)

As for the cheek of doing it, well it is GW after all. :rolleyes: :p

my_name_is_tudor
12-12-2005, 13:13
Never know, might be a full-sized one-piece sculpt of a lying-down giant, to fit in with the new model.

Tim
12-12-2005, 13:24
I'll wait for gail force nine to do one, sure it will cost more, but it will be better looking and better made.

burni
12-12-2005, 14:08
Never know, might be a full-sized one-piece sculpt of a lying-down giant, to fit in with the new model.

Not for $6! It would be the best value item GW have made in years :)

Jedi152
12-12-2005, 14:09
Never know, might be a full-sized one-piece sculpt of a lying-down giant, to fit in with the new model.
I thought it might be, 'til i saw it was $6. That's about 4 quid in the UK, which is cheaper than the 40k templates, so it'll probably be a plastic flat template.

Crube
12-12-2005, 14:11
The 40K template pack (flamer + 2 blast templates is 3 IIRC...?

my_name_is_tudor
12-12-2005, 14:27
whoops, i read it as 6, not $6.. oh well.

Griefbringer
12-12-2005, 15:15
I wonder if the template will be used with the 7th edition after GW seems to enjoy replacing templates with auto-hit dicerolls.

I can see it already:

"Falling giant rules: when a giant falls down, roll a scatter die to see which direction it falls. Every unit on this direction and within 4" of the base of the giant is affected - roll artillery die to see how many hits they receive. If a Misfire result is rolled the unit manages to dodge the falling giant totally and takes no hits."

Jedi152
12-12-2005, 15:20
The 40K template pack (flamer + 2 blast templates is 3 IIRC...?
Damn ... Thought it was 5...

Crazy Harborc
12-12-2005, 16:56
Griefbringer...........I hope you are wrong! Having said that.....I am afraid it will be as you say(predict)!

I predict that if the plastic templet doesn't sell well, it will be the way it's done in 7th Ed. If it does sell well, then naturally it will be out for 7th!!

Crube
12-12-2005, 16:59
Damn ... Thought it was 5...

Price category A


clicky here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?WCI=Menu&WCE=Search)

aakurtz
12-12-2005, 21:13
6 bucks for a peice of shaped plastic!? One more paper template ill be cutting out.

NakedFisherman
12-12-2005, 21:34
I must've missed the part that said 'you must buy this'. That would explain the emotional fervor some people put into this thread.

tzeentchgiant
12-12-2005, 23:55
The point is the outrage at the price, no-one's saying they'll part with money for it.

I however plan on doing a template of my own, basically the shape of a giant pressed into a gianty shaped base, so that it looks like the giant's decked it, then stood back up again, leaving a ncie haevy imprint.

I will not part with money for this.

TG

Shimmergloom
13-12-2005, 00:44
I still have the template that came with the 5th edition box set(or was it that version of battle magic?) so I'll keep using that unless someone says otherwise.

Catpipe
13-12-2005, 01:32
What are you all complaining about? This is a great Idea! No longer will I have to photocopy and cut out a template. Instead i can get a durable plastic one that wont bend or tear.

Crube
13-12-2005, 15:11
I still have the template that came with the 5th edition box set(or was it that version of battle magic?) so I'll keep using that unless someone says otherwise.

My issue with that one is that it always seemed a bit small...

Now maybe the new pastic one's actually the size of a fallen giant...

Cpt. Drill
13-12-2005, 15:17
I think it will be a transparent plastic marker.. not a model...

I hope they bring back the foot template for foot of gork.. that was cool!

Griefbringer
13-12-2005, 20:48
My issue with that one is that it always seemed a bit small...


Well, the thing is that the ground-scale on the table-top and the scale on the miniatures are not the same, though the exact ground-scale has been a bit vague (3rd edition rulebook puts it at 1"=10 yards, and the distances used have not really changed since then).

Crazy Harborc
13-12-2005, 20:48
I've still got two, I found out last week. One came in the 5th Ed. box. The other, I am guessing, was left by whoever, whenever. More like a dwarf giant, than a giant's giant.

Ganymede
13-12-2005, 23:49
I just trace the shape of the giant template on the end of my flame template. It works perfectly.

branchwrath
14-12-2005, 00:44
Hmmm...That's actually a pretty good idea...Good one

Makaber
14-12-2005, 01:03
Dudes, it's six *******' bucks and there no rule saying you absolutely have to buy it or GW will pour sugar in your gas tank. Futhermore, it might be really neat, maybe a giant shaped crater or something. I'd rather have something solid and definite than a flimsy paper cutout. Also, giants falling on units is a precious occation that I don't think your're savouring as much as you should. To be honest, I was considering making my own goddamn template from plasticard, complete with crumpled armour and mangled corpses.

Shimmergloom
14-12-2005, 01:58
I hope they bring back the foot template for foot of gork.. that was cool!

Yes, that template ruled too. Imagine if they still used that template and you had to scatter D6 + arrow direction for foot of gork/gork's warpath, with the standard partials hit on 4+. I think alot of the complaints about those 2 spells would be non-existant.

Slappy
14-12-2005, 02:03
I don't understand.

Why wouldn't they just package it with the Giant?

aakurtz
14-12-2005, 06:48
I must've missed the part that said 'you must buy this'. That would explain the emotional fervor some people put into this thread.

Maybe the rogue trader rules that say "your models must be 90% GW parts and using GW paint and so on..."

The fact that they are selling it for 6$ is insulting.

aakurtz
14-12-2005, 06:51
I don't understand.

Why wouldn't they just package it with the Giant?

Reason!? Come on man!! Were talking about GW! Cut throats/take wallets, kinda bussiness.

BlazeXI
14-12-2005, 08:28
We could all wait for 7th ED starter. It might be included along with Stone Thrower , Mortar and Flame templates. Giants are now not limited to O& G armies, so there is a chance.

Griefbringer
14-12-2005, 10:37
Considering the GW attempt to keep down the number of product codes they have, releasing the giant template and giant as separate products does not really make too much sense.

Then again, it is GW we are talking about.

NakedFisherman
14-12-2005, 12:40
Considering the GW attempt to keep down the number of product codes they have, releasing the giant template and giant as separate products does not really make too much sense.

Then again, it is GW we are talking about.

If you released it with the giant you'd have a horde of people on here (some of them the same, undoubtedly) complaining that GW is including useless stuff to hike up prices.

Griefbringer
14-12-2005, 13:19
There will always be people here complaining about everything that GW does.

(And that is not really news or rumour either, so perhaps I shouldn't have sent this post at all).

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-12-2005, 14:02
Maybe the rogue trader rules that say "your models must be 90% GW parts and using GW paint and so on..."



And this have what to do with the fallen giant template?

Avian
14-12-2005, 14:06
If you released it with the giant you'd have a horde of people on here (some of them the same, undoubtedly) complaining that GW is including useless stuff to hike up prices.
A fallen giant template is not useless if you get a giant, it is highly essential.

Bubble Ghost
14-12-2005, 14:08
This is probably being released mostly to make all this upcoming giant business look more rounded and professional. It's a bit of a silly thing to get worked up about.

BlazeXI
14-12-2005, 14:14
Maybe the rogue trader rules that say "your models must be 90% GW parts and using GW paint and so on..."

The fact that they are selling it for 6$ is insulting.


There is a tournament in USA that forbids using models painted with other paint than GW? How could they check what type of paint is it? Maybe by taking some samples (of your hard worked on model - everyone will gladly donate some:D ) and checking with a pro microscope, or other chemical checks. But without that if model is seald is like judging weight of something by looking at it.

my_name_is_tudor
14-12-2005, 14:22
There is a tournament in USA that forbids using models painted with other paint than GW? How could they check what type of paint is it? Maybe by taking some samples (of your hard worked on model - everyone will gladly donate some:D ) and checking with a pro microscope, or other chemical checks. But without that if model is seald is like judging weight of something by looking at it.

even then, the paints probably all the same thing just labeled differently.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-12-2005, 15:02
Actually, there can be quite a lot of difference between the various brands...

Do they also require you to use GW glue to glue them, and GW pin vice to pin them with? :p And GW flock is of course a given...

Griefbringer
14-12-2005, 16:35
While there are differences between the brands, a lot of the ingredients tend to be common, so telling the difference shouldn't be easy - not to mention GW having changed the content of their paints during the years.

Of course, GW could add some marker substance to their paints, so they could be more easily identified - or perhaps they could just throw in some radioactive dust, so that the models could be identified with a simple geiger meter instead of expensive lab tests. So what if some of the customers would catch cancer - they are likely to have dropped the game by that time anyway due to GW price hikes, so nothing would be lost to the company.

aakurtz
15-12-2005, 01:45
It really doesnt matter if they can tell the difference between the paints... what matters is that they say you need to use them. That mixed with trying to sell a piece of plastic shaped like a died giant for 6$ is insulting. It clearly doesnt cost them 6$ to make and you need it to play in tourne's. I dont see where there is room for an argument. Just package it with the giant or sell it on the side for 2 or 3 bucks for those who already have giants.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-12-2005, 08:01
It clearly doesnt cost them 6$ to make and you need it to play in tourne's.


Of course it doesn't cost them 6$ to make! The whole idea is to sell for more than you pay to make it...

As for needing it in tournaments. All I can say is that it's certainly not going to be the case here, I can't even imagine them enforcing it(or even claim it, okay, maybe a line in the rulespack that everybody proceed to ignore) at the GTs, at least not on this side of the pond. Of course, we don't have RTTs either, but it sounds like some guy is being anal about the whole thing...

samael
15-12-2005, 08:09
Do they also require you to use GW glue to glue them .


Actualy yes, when you put them together in their shops.

I know I know, their shop their rules their stuff, but it isn't like you are walking around there with a gallon of brand X while wearing a t-shirt that says brand x is far superior over GW glue.

It's glue, something you throw in your case while you run out for a game and you might need it to quickly repair a broken model.

It's just a tad anal as far as I'm concerned.

Griefbringer
15-12-2005, 10:42
As for needing to use the plastic templates: as far as I know, the rules do not even require using the current plastic templates - you can equally well photocopy the ones from the end of the rulebook and use them.

As for fallen giant template, for O&G armies currently the only official one is in the end of the O&G rulebook, from where you are expected to photocopy it out. Until a new O&G book comes out, or there is an errate published, that is how the things will remain - with the plastic one actually being unofficial.

As for using glue in GW stores: if I were a store manager in any sort of a gaming store, I wouldn't let people glue inside the store with anything else than PVA glue, for the obvious health and safety issues.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-12-2005, 13:21
Yeah! How dare GW release something you don't see the point in buying!

Don't want it? Think it's superfluous to requirement? Don't buy it.

foehammer888
15-12-2005, 14:42
There is a tournament in USA that forbids using models painted with other paint than GW? How could they check what type of paint is it? Maybe by taking some samples (of your hard worked on model - everyone will gladly donate some:D ) and checking with a pro microscope, or other chemical checks. But without that if model is seald is like judging weight of something by looking at it.

Anybody else getting visions of CSI: Games Workshop? Gil Grissom going around using forensics to check paint samples from various miniatures, finding Golden Daemon winners containing non-GW parts.

Foehammer

Frodo34x
15-12-2005, 15:20
Hey, you know how scratch-built parts are effectivly counted as GW parts? Does that mean hand-made paint counts as GW?

dancingmonkey
15-12-2005, 16:04
just to let you guys know, the reason for only GW stuff in GW (re glue) is simply down to health and safety. We have a certificate that only covers our products, so are not allowed to use anything else. That extends to staff making terrain, we can no longer use any old resin for water, for example. It's not really company, but government legislation. Sorry to stick up for HQ for once, wont happen again.

samael
15-12-2005, 18:08
Now there's a reason I can understand (well not really but that's the governement for you ;) ), clear, logical, and completely lacking in the 'use our stuff or get out of our store' mentality that my mate encountered when it happened to him.

Life would run so much smoother if we would get adressed in this way in stead of being told to stop using our glue or get out.

It's all in the presentation. :)

75hastings69
15-12-2005, 21:25
Gentlemen, there appears to be some confusion. I have been told in no uncertain terms that the Fallen Giant Template will be really cool.

I beleive that there has been a mistake with the $6 price tag as the template is going to be a sculpted clear resin template of a fallen giant, the new giant to be precise, it will be 3 dimensional (to a degree) and not flat. As it is being made in what i was told was a "new type of clear resin" i would imagine that it will be more than $6. The template should be released on 15/04/06 along with the plastic giant (which as of yet still has no price tag).

Hope this helps.

BlazeXI
16-12-2005, 07:20
Gentlemen, there appears to be some confusion. I have been told in no uncertain terms that the Fallen Giant Template will be really cool.

I beleive that there has been a mistake with the $6 price tag as the template is going to be a sculpted clear resin template of a fallen giant, the new giant to be precise, it will be 3 dimensional (to a degree) and not flat. As it is being made in what i was told was a "new type of clear resin" i would imagine that it will be more than $6. The template should be released on 15/04/06 along with the plastic giant (which as of yet still has no price tag).

Hope this helps.

Isn't resin a bit too fragile for a template? Players seem to treat dice, templates, rulers more careless to models (after all you do not spend hours preparing them).

dancingmonkey
16-12-2005, 11:55
Its gonna be three pound in the UK according to our lists.

Might be nice, but I do hope it actually reflects the size of a giant

Nazguire
17-12-2005, 10:02
That news sort of makes this better, but still, it would be much better if they simply included it in the Plastic Giant boxed set. People aren't going to miss the template that much that they won't just trace a template the shape of the resin GW template out of cardboard. Same function, costs nothing.

inq.serge
18-12-2005, 12:23
its better to use the model, especialy if you made it of scrach and its 30cm wide(12") and 40cm tall (16").

Lady Bastet
04-01-2006, 03:57
Doubt I will buy one but nevertheless waiting to see if the template is remotely worth the money.

Orcdom
06-01-2006, 01:41
just to let you guys know, the reason for only GW stuff in GW (re glue) is simply down to health and safety. We have a certificate that only covers our products, so are not allowed to use anything else. That extends to staff making terrain, we can no longer use any old resin for water, for example. It's not really company, but government legislation. Sorry to stick up for HQ for once, wont happen again.

thats a cop out excuse for GW, wether its whatever the UK safety inspectors are called or here un the US "OSHA" they are not coming into a hobby store to check a damned MSDS sheet.

that is thier excuse to hopefully get thier customers brainwashed.

that is probly why Indies do soooo much better here in the US that they do overseas. because the indie store knows what is cheaper and wil sell it.

and the resin issue, just dont make it there, when the resin dries it is not an issue anymore, because the chemical is then plastic.

GW wants to only sell thier stuff, that is the only reason you have to use thier stuff in their stores.

Steve

Pravus
19-01-2006, 15:42
The only way I'll be buying a fallen giant template is if it says "Vic, I've fallen!" when i lay it over a unit

Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-01-2006, 16:03
thats a cop out excuse for GW, wether its whatever the UK safety inspectors are called or here un the US "OSHA" they are not coming into a hobby store to check a damned MSDS sheet.

that is thier excuse to hopefully get thier customers brainwashed.

that is probly why Indies do soooo much better here in the US that they do overseas. because the indie store knows what is cheaper and wil sell it.

and the resin issue, just dont make it there, when the resin dries it is not an issue anymore, because the chemical is then plastic.

GW wants to only sell thier stuff, that is the only reason you have to use thier stuff in their stores.

Steve

Oh shut up. Not everything is a conspiracy. Don't want to buy GW glue? Then don't. Buy elsewhere. However, a GW Shop is GW Property, and as such, it is common decency to respect their rules.

How would you like it if I came into your house and shat on your Sofa? Going your way, I could rationalise it thus 'Well, I did it in my mates Squat, why should you care?'

It's like everything in life, don't like it? Avoid it!

Crube
19-01-2006, 16:10
just to let you guys know, the reason for only GW stuff in GW (re glue) is simply down to health and safety. We have a certificate that only covers our products, so are not allowed to use anything else. That extends to staff making terrain, we can no longer use any old resin for water, for example. It's not really company, but government legislation. Sorry to stick up for HQ for once, wont happen again.

Hmmm ASAIK, not strictly true

Not the reason, but the thought behind it...

I am a Heath and Saftey Officer where I work, and provided you have relevant safety notices, and procedures for controlling the supply to underage people, then you can sell whatever company's stuff you want.

Essentially, the chemicals involved in making many of these products are almost identical, so there is no reason why GW's branded glue (or whatever) should be treated any differently to say, locktite...

Somewhere like Wilkinsons, who sell all types of glues, knives etc will have an almost identical policy to GW in the supply (ie legal requirements, not selling to minors etc)

The only difference is that GW choose not to sell other companies products in their stores as a matter of policy

(NB Not wishing to criticise the policy, just stating the H&S aspect...If GW only want to stock their own stuff, so be it. I'll go to Wilkos. - As an aside, I was in GW this lunch putting some models together. You are no longer allowed to use knives in store (fair enough) but i was using some locklite. Not GW glue - No problem...)

Orcdom
19-01-2006, 19:59
Oh shut up. Not everything is a conspiracy. Don't want to buy GW glue? Then don't. Buy elsewhere. However, a GW Shop is GW Property, and as such, it is common decency to respect their rules.

How would you like it if I came into your house and shat on your Sofa? Going your way, I could rationalise it thus 'Well, I did it in my mates Squat, why should you care?'

It's like everything in life, don't like it? Avoid it!

what hole did you crawl out of?

i understand its thier store. thats not the issue, the issue is over a 50 cent bottle of glue, oh wait its at least 3 times that in a GW store, glad there are none around here.
i do avoid it.

and BTW where is the conspiracy? MSDS sheets are required for every container of chemical in a place of business, and each brand, one use items, not necessairly but something that is stock is.

Steve

Mr Tiddles
19-01-2006, 20:30
GW wants to only sell thier stuff, that is the only reason you have to use thier stuff in their stores.



My gosh!
How dare they!
The outrage!
Wanting customers to buy their products in stores where they are paying for rent, rates, lighting, heat and staffing costs.
Disgraceful. Hanging is too good for them.

Quin 242
20-01-2006, 12:41
6 bucks for a peice of shaped plastic!? One more paper template ill be cutting out.


Uhm.. isn't that about what all the new figs are from GW? :) About $6 for a piece of shaped plastic ;)

Crazy Harborc
20-01-2006, 21:40
Uhm.. isn't that about what all the new figs are from GW? :) About $6 for a piece of shaped plastic ;)

Good one, good point, a shame it is becoming more and more true.

Tim
23-01-2006, 15:15
I wouldn't mind GW hobby products if the quality and quantity matched the prices, They don't. Living in the U.S. I'm spoiled by all of the options that make GW hobby products unapealing. first thier plastic and superglue. Both are terrible. I prefer Super Jet for super glue and plastiweld for plastics. Cost is a little less, quality a lot better. Terrains supplys (sand, grass, snow etc.) they want $9.99 for a container with what looks to be about 1 to 2 ozs. For 9.99 I can buy woodland scenics in quart containers. Brushes, GW brushes are god-awful, I prefer to go to the local craft store and buy brushes from the artist selections. Better quality at often half the price. Plastic plants, hmmmmmmm, pet store for me (also the craft store as a large selection of silf, dried and plastic plants for much cheaper.) Paint, the only thing they make that I like alot is their chaos black, the rest I like reaper, howard Hues, and Veleio.

The point is if you look better quality and quantity can be found for less, in stores and on the internet. I personally think GW would be better served selling other peoples hobby products in thier stores than making their own. It would cost them less, (they won't be buying the materials and then repackaging them.) and would turn a better profit in the long run.

Also we would bebetter served as hobbiest and gamers if GW would focus its energies on better rules writing and more new releases.

(just my 2 cents)

portentjunkie
23-01-2006, 15:35
My gosh!
How dare they!
The outrage!
Wanting customers to buy their products in stores where they are paying for rent, rates, lighting, heat and staffing costs.
Disgraceful. Hanging is too good for them.

Or he could have been talking about, you know, the fact that they claimed that the real reason was a legal issue.

But no, of course, he couldn't have been saying that they were just giving an excuse rather than being upfront and saying "We only want to sell our own stuff".

Mad Doc Grotsnik
23-01-2006, 15:53
Or it could be he's talking rubbish about a subject he knows nothing about!

Hence the bit about the conspiracy.

But then, I am happy to pay GW prices, and use other companies Superglues as the one GW peddles is frankly a bit rubbish at it's job.

That makes me a Fanboy. Oooh, I can here the mob with the burning brands coming to take me away.

Tim
24-01-2006, 13:56
Mad Doc, your not a fan boy but you did reiterate my point. the prices would be fine if the quality were also there. GW could get better quality by selling other peoples hobby supplies.

Advantage of doing so: If their quality is bad, give them the boot and go to someone else at no cost to yourself. as the customer in such an arrangement they would be in a position of power to demand the best. As the manufacturer they would be looking for the lowest cost for an acceptable product. Their products are ok, but at their prices you can find better.

Also they should focus on what their company was designed to do, make and design quality miniatures and the games that go with them. (Personally I'd like to see them spen less time on paint caps and glue bottles and more time on rules development and rules corrections.)

CommanderAstelan
26-01-2006, 22:04
(NB Not wishing to criticise the policy, just stating the H&S aspect...If GW only want to stock their own stuff, so be it. I'll go to Wilkos. - As an aside, I was in GW this lunch putting some models together. You are no longer allowed to use knives in store (fair enough) but i was using some locklite. Not GW glue - No problem...)

which GW store did you go to that would not let you use knives? at the GW store i go to you have to be 16+ to use knives but you can still use them.

hiram
27-01-2006, 04:19
Thats actually common practice in most west coast stores that I know of, there was an incident.

foehammer888
27-01-2006, 19:41
I wouldn't mind GW hobby products if the quality and quantity matched the prices, They don't.

But you miss the point. Crapy quality products at a high price equals higher profits than good quality products at a lower price.

You're also acting like GW is the only company guilty of this type of tactic. It's the same for thousands of businesses. You could similarly ask why GAP or Abercrombie and Fitch sells only their Brand T-shirts for $30 dollars when Target sells generic brand T-shirts for a 3rd the cost? They want to make money, and they have a brand name that people will pay for. It has nothing to do with quality.

As I've always said, it's a hobby, it's not meant to be cost effective or cheap. It's something people do with their extra time and money. It's not required for daily life, so GW is not required to keep prices at reasonable levels everyone can afford. They will care for their customers, but only those customers that will make them most successful. Prices of products are at their current level for two reasons

1) to cover the cost of providing the good or service
2) because people are willing to pay them

Hell, I'd be ashamed of GW if they charged less for a product than what people were willing to pay. It'd just be poor business sense. Sucks that I have to shell out the cash, but I still shell it out.

Foehammer

warmaster
27-01-2006, 20:32
Thats actually common practice in most west coast stores that I know of, there was an incident. same with the store i go to, but im on the eastern time. now they dont let anybody except staff handle knifes and the such, and they dont to table building any more. iirc, there were a couple of incidents in the states where little kids hurt themselves with knives in the store

Avian
28-01-2006, 16:21
Having gone completely off topic, I have moved and renamed this thread

The Judge
28-01-2006, 19:14
I see the main reason for not allowing the use of non-DW products in store is advertisement for rival companies, that draws money out of the GW profits and screws their finances over even more.

Which is fair enough to me.

Adept
28-01-2006, 23:40
*posts comment after only reading first and last pages of thread*

I'd happily buy a fallen giant template for six bucks. Using cardboard is a pain in the ass to work out, as it's not transparent. Sure, you can do it, but it's just that much more difficult.

And I don't know about you, but I don't like suspending a solid metal figure the size of a giant on it's side by it's base, nor do I like putting grubby fingers over it more than I have to. Added to that, working out hits from the actual model is even more troublesome than using a cardboard template.

With regards to the GW products in GW stores: Well, their stores, their rules. I find it saddening that GW is no longer the enthusiastic hobby oriented company it once was, but it still produces my favourite games and my favourite models.

Mikhaila
29-01-2006, 04:27
One reason I can see for selling the template separately, is for the folks that already have a giant, (or 4), want the template, but not the new giant. Or someone that wants to buy 2 of the new giants, and doesn't feel like paying twice for the template.

soulhybrid
29-01-2006, 13:27
Hmmm ASAIK, not strictly true

Not the reason, but the thought behind it...

I am a Heath and Saftey Officer where I work, and provided you have relevant safety notices, and procedures for controlling the supply to underage people, then you can sell whatever company's stuff you want.

Essentially, the chemicals involved in making many of these products are almost identical, so there is no reason why GW's branded glue (or whatever) should be treated any differently to say, locktite...

Somewhere like Wilkinsons, who sell all types of glues, knives etc will have an almost identical policy to GW in the supply (ie legal requirements, not selling to minors etc)

The only difference is that GW choose not to sell other companies products in their stores as a matter of policy

(NB Not wishing to criticise the policy, just stating the H&S aspect...If GW only want to stock their own stuff, so be it. I'll go to Wilkos. - As an aside, I was in GW this lunch putting some models together. You are no longer allowed to use knives in store (fair enough) but i was using some locklite. Not GW glue - No problem...)

I don't really want to question you as I'm not a health and saftey officer but if something did happen with another companies products in a GW store I believe GW is liable. The reason I say this is because my family owns a small takeaway store, the building next to us is a 7/11 or something. Apparently (not 100% sure) if a person buys some takeaway from another store then bring it to our store we are liable if anything happens. It does not matter that it wasn't our food and there is no law I know of that prevents it but the fact that we could get sued or something similiar means we don't let people eat other shops food at ours. I know for certain that we are not the only shop that does this.

Crazy Harborc
30-01-2006, 00:41
Yes, I'm a bit of a critic of many GW practices. I agree with the GW policy of not wanting non-GW minies or whatever used in their store. As stated by others, it IS their stores.

Trench_Raider
30-01-2006, 03:59
Yes, I'm a bit of a critic of many GW practices. I agree with the GW policy of not wanting non-GW minies or whatever used in their store. As stated by others, it IS their stores.


I don't.
My own hatred of GW aside, their "use our toys or else" is impossible to enforce (especially in WFB were figures are often hidden in ranked up units) given the shear size and age of the GW line. I have never been able to get a staffer to give me a really good answer to the question "What exactly constitutes a Citadel Miniature?". It's not nearly as clear cut as you might think at first glance. I've mentioned this before and can elaborate if anyne cares.

One quick note to those who are fairly new to this forum: ignore Mad Doc's comments on threads that are hostile to GW. He long ago proved that due to a rather misplaced sense of company loyalty he will not condemn and will attempt to justify ANYTHING GW does. Heck, they could include dead kittens with every package of miniatures and he would still be singing their praises. It is interesting that when, in the past, I have tired to get him to justif some of GWs more agregeous acts (the overnight 40% increase in price after the shift to white metal despite the fact industry indiers stated that the change over wold cost next to nothing, the release of two RT add-on books a scant two months before the change over to 2nd ed. 4k, the similar short shelf life of the "codex:assasins, the shot lived ban on the tourny use of OOP miniatures etc, etc, etc...) he simply ignores the question.

Edit:

It's like everything in life, don't like it? Avoid it!

I just noticed this amusing double standard by our own Doc. Sounds like good advice that he should follow as he clearly "doesn't like" anti-GW threads.



Finally, hullo all. It's been a while.

"Trench Raider"

Gwedd
30-01-2006, 04:57
Comrade Trenchie..

Hello old fellow! I too found this new "Portent" after having been adrift after the old one capsized and went down. Ah well... good to see you back and posting.

Now to the point. I had an interesting experience a couple years back. My son wanted to play WFB, and there was a big "massed battle" at a nearby store. No sweat, says I. I've been playing wargames for, well, almost 40 years now (big sigh). I've played a LOT of historical games, and painted literally thousands of minis over that time. Well, I go to the closet and take out a couple boxes of Dark Ages historical stuff, sit down with some bags of GW plastic bases, and set to work rebasing all the figs to fit.

Comes the tournament, and the organizer keeps looking over at my son's army. He finally comes over, examines a couple and tells my son he can't use them as only GW minis are allowed. I calmly walk over, pick up one and pop the figure off it's base (these are the pre-slotta metal minis with rounded bases cast on), and hand it to him. "Read the bottom" says I. cast into it crisply and neatly is the word "Citadel".

The organizer looks at the mini again and says "But these are, are.. so well cast.. when did they make these?" I told him they were from the Citadel "Dark Ages" range from the 80's. He was incredulous. He honestly and truly did not know that Citadel existed outside of GW for some time, and had extensive ranges of historical minis. In fact, you could buy them 3 foot to a bag for about $2.00 then. Easy enough to build up a substantial army.

Anyway, the point is, is that even GW doesn't always know what they have produced, and it's especially hard for them when you start figuring in conversion work, especially the major stuff.

Ah well. I wish Citadel would start recasting some of those historical lines. They would be especially welcome what with the GW Ancients rules sets.

Respects,

Gwedd

hiram
30-01-2006, 08:56
yeah I try to remain with the spirit of this particular mandate, if a mini is cool and the guy isn't using retardedly non-workshop stuff than I'm alraight with it, kit-bash tanks cool, bring in an m1a1 model for a russ lame, luckily though I've been with the hobby long enough to know our models and what are not.
That said if the piese is cool I got no beef, If the guy's trying to pull a fast one then there's a problem.

Osbad
30-01-2006, 11:46
I don't understand.
Why wouldn't they just package it with the Giant?

...altogether now...

"Because then they couldn't charge you an extra $6 for it!"

Mikhaila
30-01-2006, 14:17
I can understand GW's policy of only wanting to see their own products used in their stores. They at least know that if it's a GW model, they made a bit of profit, no matter where it was bought.At an indie store, you can have people expect to use table space, tools, scenery, and take part in events, but buy everything elsewhere.

I had to bite my tounge and not strangle a customer last week. He came in for a LOTR event we have been running on fridays. First asks about swapping a box he got for something else. "sure" I reply, "no problem". The box turns out to have another stores sticker, the store is going out of business, and he bought it 30% off, knowing he didn't use those figures, so he could swap it at my store. I explained to him that we really couldn't re-sell a box with another stores tag on it, and a 30% off sticker, sorry.

He moans that those are the only figures he has, and needs to put them together to play. He then wants to borrow glue so he can put the figures together, and can I loan him a set of clippers and files as well. Later, he pulls out a fully painted army to play with.

Adept
30-01-2006, 14:23
Ah well. I wish Citadel would start recasting some of those historical lines. They would be especially welcome what with the GW Ancients rules sets.

Respects,

Gwedd

Don't ever wish for such an evil thing. They'd just dust off the old molds, and start selling the same models you bought at three for 2$ in blister packs of two for 12$


He moans that those are the only figures he has, and needs to put them together to play. He then wants to borrow glue so he can put the figures together, and can I loan him a set of clippers and files as well. Later, he pulls out a fully painted army to play with.

Dats some fast paintin...

Agamemnon2
30-01-2006, 14:53
That's what you get these days by being friendly and accessible. People try to screw you over at every turn. It's just not worth it to try anymore.

The Judge
30-01-2006, 21:02
If it's 3D, then cool - but if it's just a flamer or blast style template in the vague outline of a Giant, I'll just take the outline of the previous editions.

If I even buy a Giant - which I will if Dwarves are allowed to take them - I have a Slayer army.

ArtificerArmour
30-01-2006, 21:28
On GW only selling GW stock topic: You don't buy a mcdonalds and eat it in burger king, do you?

GW sell things for their game systems. I really don't see the problem with that.

At the giant template: The template is non-essential, as it could be represented by laying the giant flat. for those who wish not to muck up the paint job - buy the template!

edits: its late and i can't spell

Jedi152
31-01-2006, 08:54
On GW only selling GW stock topic: You don't buy a mcdonalds and eat it in burger king, do you?
I have done before now. No staff stopped me.

At the end of the day, GW can set it's own rules. I never have modelled or painted in there, and TBH i never will.

Too many kids for me.


But wait til they start checking tape measures and dice at tourneys.... :p

philby
31-01-2006, 11:11
Actually the majority of the old Citadal historical moulds are owned by Foundry and are sold at a similar price to GWs own stuff.

For example http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/AVNS/2/index.asp

Adept
31-01-2006, 11:14
I never have modelled or painted in there, and TBH i never will.

I cannot understand why people would willingly game, paint or model in a GW store. Fer chrissakes, it's a retail outlet! There are gaming clubs out there, that are much better places to hang out, yak with your mates, paint, play games, whatever. And if there isn't a club near you, start one!

Brushmonkey
31-01-2006, 12:20
Seen at least 10 clubs start in the area, only one still going now. GW is handy as they provide all the bits you need, don't have to pay to use them and they regularly have events and campaigns going on, plus they are normally in a centralised location.

GW gaming nights are great.

Trench_Raider
31-01-2006, 20:51
Hullo Gwedd!
That's a great story. As someone who has been gaming since about 1980 or so I certainly recall Citadel's historical range. For the longest, they were considered to be amongst the best 25mms out there. Now they are a little dated and are small by today' stadards, but they stil are very nive figures. Like another poster mentioned, most of Citadel's old molds were bought by Foundry and some are still marketed by them. For example Foundry's "Elizabethan" range are all taken from Citadels old "Wars of Religion" line and Foundry's "Late Medievals" are mostly Citadel "War of the Roses" casts. Would this make foundry figures from these lines GW tourny legal? I have yet to get a definitive answer from a GW staffer, but I would think so.

I have had similar experiences with my High elf army in which I have mixed in "Melnibonean" figures from Citidel's old "Eternal Champion" range as character models and unit leaders.
http://www.solegends.com/citec/ecmelniboneaninf.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citec/ecpersonalities.jpg
Most players are completely unware of the existance of this range and thus they get a bit of attention.

More to the point the huge size and age of Citadel's ranges make it almost impossible for a player or tournement organizer who is not a very knowledgable collector to call someone on using non-GW figures. for example if you looked at the following figures in an Orc and Goblin army:
http://www.blacktreedesign.com/productimages/fa0208.jpg
and I told you that they were from the old range of "Savage orcs" would you know any better? (they scupts are in fact Black Treee) Most players would not...more so if they were mixed in a unit amongst the real thing.

"Play with our toys" policy is both self serving and unenforcable. It's particularly repugnants when indy stores try to inforce it.

"Trench Raider"

Clarence
01-02-2006, 05:47
To Adept - not every GW is the retail hell-hole you make it out to be. I've been to 3 different gaming clubs in my area that were smelly, poorly ventilated, and popluated by gamers who didn't have painted armies or had decent rules knowledge. On the other hand, the local GW have knowledgable, friendly staff who own several well painted armies, and offer painting and gaming help upon request (like staff challenges.) They also regulary make new tables/terrain which helps change things up as well. I've travelled to other GWs in the area, and the quality certainly varies, but I know it's unfair to tar them all with the same brush. Good gaming!

Clarence

Clarence
01-02-2006, 05:58
I really have no clue why people are so upset over the release of the Fallen Giant Template. As someone else pointed out, it's being released separately because it is an option. All the army books that have a Giant include the template in the back anyway so you can just use that if you don't want to but the new template. And if it came packaged with the new Giant, you'd be paying for it twice if you wanted 2 Giants in your army. Honestly, GW comes up with a good idea and the general public can't help but hate on it anyways...Good gaming!

Clarence

Jedi152
01-02-2006, 08:24
Yes, but the new army books won't have the cut out one in the back, meaning that if you have a giant, you'll need the template.

Clarence
01-02-2006, 09:17
To Jedi152 - how do you know the new army books won't have the template at the back? What reliable sources can you cite?

Jedi152
01-02-2006, 10:24
The fact that GW are releasing it as a plastic template?

Common sense, and a knowledge of GW practices suggests that if they are releasing a plastic template, then they won't let people do it the cheap way.

Does the new 40k book have the templates in the back? If so, then i stand corrected.

Brushmonkey
01-02-2006, 10:47
Meh, who cares? The Giant is plastic and so won't chip easilyso just use the Giant as the template.

captain_bas
01-02-2006, 10:51
Does the new 40k book have the templates in the back? If so, then i stand corrected.

then you stand corrected sir. the 40k rulebook has the templates in the bak, and in full colour, no less.

CB.

Crube
01-02-2006, 10:57
I use Friar Lane GW as painting station on occasion, for the sheer reason it's about a 5 minute walk from my work, it's clean, and is the only place i can get some painting done on my lunch hour .

(Oh and Trenchie, I could quite happily call you on using those models as Savage Orcs, but then I AM a sad old git...:D)

Mikhaila
01-02-2006, 13:19
"Play with our toys" policy is both self serving and unenforcable. It's particularly repugnants when indy stores try to inforce it.

"Trench Raider"

You'll just have to be disgusted with me then. As an Indy store, I enforce that rule quite often in some circumstances. If I am holding a Warhammer tournament, and GW is supplying the prize support for the tournament out of their pocket, then I feel it's only fair to uphold that rule. It doesn't mean I run through every army and check out each figure, I don't worry about the odd figure or conversion. But when someone brings in units of old Grenadier or Ralpartha figs that they have put GW bases on, then no, I don't allow those to be used.

In a similar fashion, If its a Warmachine tournament, and PP is supplying prizes, I don't allow anything but Warmachine figures to be used, and when we used to hold Warzone tournaments, we only allowed figures from warzone to be used. If a game manufacturer is footing the bill for prizes, I think it's only fair to do that.

Brushmonkey
01-02-2006, 14:04
You'll just have to be disgusted with me then. As an Indy store, I enforce that rule quite often in some circumstances. If I am holding a Warhammer tournament, and GW is supplying the prize support for the tournament out of their pocket, then I feel it's only fair to uphold that rule. It doesn't mean I run through every army and check out each figure, I don't worry about the odd figure or conversion. But when someone brings in units of old Grenadier or Ralpartha figs that they have put GW bases on, then no, I don't allow those to be used.

In a similar fashion, If its a Warmachine tournament, and PP is supplying prizes, I don't allow anything but Warmachine figures to be used, and when we used to hold Warzone tournaments, we only allowed figures from warzone to be used. If a game manufacturer is footing the bill for prizes, I think it's only fair to do that.

I completely agree with that.

Trench_Raider
01-02-2006, 20:40
You'll just have to be disgusted with me then. As an Indy store, I enforce that rule quite often in some circumstances. If I am holding a Warhammer tournament, and GW is supplying the prize support for the tournament out of their pocket, then I feel it's only fair to uphold that rule. It doesn't mean I run through every army and check out each figure, I don't worry about the odd figure or conversion. But when someone brings in units of old Grenadier or Ralpartha figs that they have put GW bases on, then no, I don't allow those to be used.

In a similar fashion, If its a Warmachine tournament, and PP is supplying prizes, I don't allow anything but Warmachine figures to be used, and when we used to hold Warzone tournaments, we only allowed figures from warzone to be used. If a game manufacturer is footing the bill for prizes, I think it's only fair to do that.

Well, at least your consistant. (which still doesn't make it right in my book)

I still contend that the rule is largly un-enforcable for all but the most knowledgable collectors. Another example, I have several of these figures mixed into my goblin units in my O&G army:
http://www.solegends.com/citf/citftg/rhftgoverhead.jpg
You would be excused for thinking these were not Citadel figures, however they are "Gnolls" from Citadel's old Fantasy Tribes range from the late '70s-early '80s which were later incorperated into their goblin range.

"Trench Raider"