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Festus
12-12-2005, 13:50
Hi

I found this in one of Avians posts over at the WH Forums:

GAW 47-34 Warhammer 40K: Imperial Guard Vostroyan Platoon $90.00

What is this supposed to be? Any info?

Greetings
festus

my_name_is_tudor
12-12-2005, 13:54
Lots, it should be in the rumour roundup.

They're a new, metal IG regiment, think tsarist russians, moustaches, furry hats, not soviets.

Something to do with City of Death apparently.

ArtificerArmour
12-12-2005, 13:55
have you seen them, tudor?

my_name_is_tudor
12-12-2005, 14:08
nope, just repreating what I've picked up from the various rumour sources that frequent this forum

heretic
12-12-2005, 15:57
Lots, it should be in the rumour roundup.

They're a new, metal IG regiment, think tsarist russians, moustaches, furry hats, not soviets.

Something to do with City of Death apparently.
sounds like Valhallans

Yodhrin
12-12-2005, 16:00
sounds like Valhallans

No, those would be soviets. Google for tsarist russian troops.

plasmadaemon
12-12-2005, 16:40
One thing I would hate GW for is if they make these stupid-sounding IG replace the popularity of the cadians. YEAR 40 000 ISN'T THE YEAR 1940 FOR GOD'S SAKE! :mad: :cries:

sulla
12-12-2005, 16:54
One thing I would hate GW for is if they make these stupid-sounding IG replace the popularity of the cadians. YEAR 40 000 ISN'T THE YEAR 1940 FOR GOD'S SAKE! :mad: :cries:

Eh? How can they 'make' them more popular than cadians?

IMO cadians have had their time in the sun.. they are just one IG army... it's time to focus on some others...

Sulla

heretic
12-12-2005, 16:58
One thing I would hate GW for is if they make these stupid-sounding IG replace the popularity of the cadians. YEAR 40 000 ISN'T THE YEAR 1940 FOR GOD'S SAKE! :mad: :cries:
IG is supposed to resemble 1940-ish

heretic
12-12-2005, 16:59
No, those would be soviets. Google for tsarist russian troops.
meh, all I found was a pic of Boris :o

plasmadaemon
12-12-2005, 17:04
IG is supposed to resemble 1940-ish


Then call it warhammer 1940 :rolleyes:

The year 40 000 ISN'T that far backwards in technology, but not too futuristic as other sci-fi imagery.

Sulla: Cadians are the 'ultramarines' of Imperial Guard, they will always be the main IG army... not some.... dudes covered in animal fur and an autogun :wtf:

Follow
12-12-2005, 17:26
Because the Cadians don't resemble a cross between British and American troops in World War 2 themselves or anything. And Commissars aren't over exagerated British officers from the same era. Basilisks aren't very large mortars, and the Leman Russ isn't based on WW2 era tanks either. ;)

Cadians or anyone else, all IG look like some kind of famous war in Earth's history, not just WW2 but you can see plenty of Vietnam in the Catachan as well.

As far as the comment someone made about the Tsarist Russians getting a bonus to shoot civilians... I think it's a little out of place, these particular troops were the ones that fought against the "Red" army (which was comprised of civilians anyway). But really don't want to argue that here, just wanted to point out that the "White" army (tsarists) were generally what we consider to be the "good guys" in that war. ;)

With the Valhallans, I think GW tried to make some kind of Russian influence, but they ended up with some bastardization of Russian with some Norse Germanic stuff and it was way too satirical to be effective.

The last paragraph is speculation...




Follow :)

Hideous Loon
12-12-2005, 17:41
Follow, I think I need to correct you on that one. Commissars are, as far as I know, based on the Commissars (no kiddin'?) from the Soviet army. Political officers, then, who did much what Commissars do in the 41st millennium, going around making sure that the grunts did what Father Stalin wanted them to. Oh, and the grunts feared the Commissars highly.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
12-12-2005, 18:01
IG is supposed to resemble 1940-ish

False. Different IG armies resemble real armies from lots of different periods.

Rob

Brimstone
12-12-2005, 18:14
This really doesn't contain much in the way of new news or rumours so I'm moving it over to 40K general.

They are METAL 'cossack' style IG due out for cities of death (cityfight2) and are armed with 'flintlock' style lasguns.

Follow
12-12-2005, 18:20
Follow, I think I need to correct you on that one. Commissars are, as far as I know, based on the Commissars (no kiddin'?) from the Soviet army. Political officers, then, who did much what Commissars do in the 41st millennium, going around making sure that the grunts did what Father Stalin wanted them to. Oh, and the grunts feared the Commissars highly.

That's true, I didn't think about them at all but you're right. :)

British officers had a lot of the same mannerisms, but all of them learned how to make war together, so it makes sense that they came out seeming rather similar. ;)




Follow :)

Po-
12-12-2005, 18:22
IG is supposed to resemble 1940-ish

You can't really say that as IG regiments come from different worlds, which means that some of the worlds are way back in time at the same time as some worlds are futuristic. If you have to codex, check the difference between the Kanak skull takers and the Harakoni Warhawks...

chiaroscuros
12-12-2005, 18:39
GAW 47-34 Warhammer 40K: Imperial Guard Vostroyan Platoon $90.00

to continue with potential rumor speculation....



i find it very interesting that they are selling a "platoon" of them.

i hope this means that we will get a lot more than just 2 lasgun poses. lets hope for 4 poses, although 3 would probably work.

the command squad and both troop units should have special weapons (plasmaguns, flamers, meltaguns and grenade launchers). and cross our fingers, two different sargaents and a commander.

at US$90, 25 figures works out to $3.60 apiece. a bit pricy... but
hopefully you get a heavy weapon squad too with one each of the heavy weapon options (lascannon, heavy bolter, autocannon, mortar, missile launcher). now if they are smart, they will make the heavy weapon models in lead and throw in the appropriate number of catachan or cadian heavy weapon sprues.

so casting-wise, i am thinking...

commander
sargaent with powerweapon
sargaent with powerfist
lasgun - pose 1
lasgun - pose 2
lasgun - pose 3
plasmagun
flamer
meltagun
grenade launchers
heavy weapon body kneeling
heavy weapon body standing

12 total

modelwise, i am hoping for 2 troops of ten models, a command squad of 5 models and 3 heavy weapon teams of two figures each. so at US$90, 31 figures works out to $2.90 apiece. which seems like a pretty good deal to me... whether they will also box up the 3 heavy weapons teams for $40, the two troop boxs for $35 each, and possibly the command squad for $30 is a good question.... (individually, those boxs would add up to $140... so maybe you wouldn't get the heavy weapons in the platoon set, darn it...)

only having a platoon option or buying the figures as bitzs would definately be an interesting marketing ploy. especially if it is a limited edition platoon set that isn't available 6 months after cityfight comes out.... plus it would save on a lot of shelf space.

thoughts?

Jo Bennett
12-12-2005, 18:47
Then call it warhammer 1940 :rolleyes:

The year 40 000 ISN'T that far backwards in technology, but not too futuristic as other sci-fi imagery.

Sulla: Cadians are the 'ultramarines' of Imperial Guard, they will always be the main IG army... not some.... dudes covered in animal fur and an autogun :wtf:

There is no such thing as the Ultramarines of the Imperial Guard, the Guard is almost by definition far too varied for that. Any guardsman wearing a flak jacket and carrying a lasgun qualifies as typical. Of the models so far produced Valhallans for certain satisfy that, as do Tallarns. Mordians and Pretorians it is perhaps a stretch, though their rules seem to suggest not.

I don't think there is an "always" about the Cadians' current dominance. In the past there were more Catachans, and in 2nd edition I saw more Valhallans and Catachans than Cadians.

Kyuss
12-12-2005, 19:20
As long as its followed by plastic great coats, im fine.......


Kyuss

TWB
12-12-2005, 19:35
IG warfare is often portrayed as being more WWI than WWII, Vast swathes of men in meatgrinder warfare with extremely high casualties, think Ypres with lasers.

But the IG can be inspired by troops of any era, that's their beauty.

Starchild
12-12-2005, 19:38
Then call it warhammer 1940 :rolleyes: The year 40 000 ISN'T that far backwards in technology, but not too futuristic as other sci-fi imagery.Maybe you should read up on your fluff or get a copy of Rogue Trader. Over the course of it's (40k) history, mankind may have blasted itself back to the stoneage more than once. Man reached the pinnacle of technical achievement during the "Dark Age" of Technology. The Age of Strife destroyed the original spacefaring human civilizations. The Imperium is still catching up to knowledge that has been lost over the millenia.

All these factors mean that various worlds in the Imperium have greatly varying levels of technology and industrial infrastructures. Some worlds are prepaleolithic, some are bronze age, some are medieval, etc. Some worlds are not able to fully implement technological achievements because they lack the resources. Technology is widely viewed with superstition.

Rykion
12-12-2005, 19:40
Many of the Imperial Guard units have a pre 1940's look. The evident Cossack look of the new unit definitely predates 1940, and the Leman Russ is closer to a World War I tank than World War II. If you want a somewhat futuristic looking guard army then Cadians is the army for you. The background in 40k says many worlds have only a 19th or 20th Century level of industrial production. The "gothic future" elements of the game have trumped the sci-fi elements in the fluff.

Cadians look the most like the original generic Imperial Guard. That is where the concept of Cadians as the default unit originates.

heretic
12-12-2005, 20:02
You can't really say that as IG regiments come from different worlds, which means that some of the worlds are way back in time at the same time as some worlds are futuristic. If you have to codex, check the difference between the Kanak skull takers and the Harakoni Warhawks...
true, but if you look at IG tanks that have been out for years now, they are closer to those of WWII-I believe A.C. even explained that it was the look they wanted.

of course there are more futuristic areas out there, and yes it's 40,000... but remember the DAoT and AoS, which knocked man back to the stone age, plus the rudimentary style of the Adeptus Mechanicus

the main thing is the STYLE, not the technology of the 1940's.

heretic
12-12-2005, 20:03
Many of the Imperial Guard units have a pre 1940's look. The evident Cossack look of the new unit definitely predates 1940, and the Leman Russ is closer to a World War I tank than World War II. If you want a somewhat futuristic looking guard army then Cadians is the army for you. The background in 40k says many worlds have only a 19th or 20th Century level of industrial production. The "gothic future" elements of the game have trumped the sci-fi elements in the fluff.

Cadians look the most like the original generic Imperial Guard. That is where the concept of Cadians as the default unit originates.
also the older IG stormtroopers and Adeptus Arbites have a more futuristic look

NakedFisherman
12-12-2005, 20:31
Oddly enough, the Imperial Russian Army had a double-headed eagle as its symbol (pre-WWI and WWI era). And guess what many army units were called? That's right...the Imperial Guard. :p

The Imperial Russian army has many looks...from the Peter the Great era uniforms of the 18th century to the Nicholas II uniforms pre-WWI. I'm guessing the Vostroyans are more along the lines of the WWI Russians, which would make them look a bit like this:

http://www.armymuseum.ru/images/ria/front.jpg
http://www.armymuseum.ru/images/ria/baner13.jpg

GamesmasterZ
12-12-2005, 20:40
They look like Mordians. That's all I'm going to say...

NakedFisherman
12-12-2005, 20:43
They went from Valhallans to Mordians pretty quickly. :p

TWB
12-12-2005, 20:50
Oddly enough, the Imperial Russian Army had a double-headed eagle as its symbol . . .

Actually, if you look at the cultures of humanity throughout the ages a two headed bird is present in almost all of them at some time or another, the eagle is a symbol of power generally too, so a two headed eagle is hardly an uncommon thing.

GamesmasterZ
12-12-2005, 20:53
Going with the eagle thing, you've got the Nazi's, the early Germans, Napoleon, and alot of others. I just named three that I -knew- of, there are definately plenty more.

NakedFisherman
12-12-2005, 21:10
Actually, if you look at the cultures of humanity throughout the ages a two headed bird is present in almost all of them at some time or another, the eagle is a symbol of power generally too, so a two headed eagle is hardly an uncommon thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-headed_eagle

:D

Lafeel Abriel
12-12-2005, 21:12
You are forgetting the good old Austro Hungarian Empire (previosly known as the Holy Roman Empire). They used a one till it fell apart towards the end of WW1.

boogle
12-12-2005, 21:12
There is no such thing as the Ultramarines of the Imperial Guard, the Guard is almost by definition far too varied for that. Any guardsman wearing a flak jacket and carrying a lasgun qualifies as typical. Of the models so far produced Valhallans for certain satisfy that, as do Tallarns. Mordians and Pretorians it is perhaps a stretch, though their rules seem to suggest not.

I don't think there is an "always" about the Cadians' current dominance. In the past there were more Catachans, and in 2nd edition I saw more Valhallans and Catachans than Cadians.
which is the reason Catachans got the Plastics 1st, but I see what he means about the Cadians, they are kitted out in what could be called 'standard' IG Kit, and wouldn't look out of place no matter the Theatre of War (with different Camo Patterns)

darren redstar
12-12-2005, 21:34
But really don't want to argue that here, just wanted to point out that the "White" army (tsarists) were generally what we consider to be the "good guys" in that war

I also don't want to get innto the politics of this . But I find it difficult to let that one go.
The 'white' armies were conscripted and brutalised peasants who butchered any suspected 'reds' as soon as they saw them,in the context of civil war this meant anybody who could be considered a worker would be shot or strung up.
In the eyes of the tsarist generals bolshevik and jew were synonymous- jews were massacred in numbers that were only surpassed by the nazis 20 years later; whatever the crimes and mistakes of the leninists (and there were many) it was the fear of, and experience of, the white armies that drove many russians to side with them.
During the civil war the soviet regime was invaded by 14 seperate armies (british, american, german, french, turkish, polish, czech, japanese, finns, austrians etc.etc.) in many ways it seemed impossible for them to win but they did and the behavior of the white armies waas one of the reasons why.
The 'whites' even disgusted their allies in the allied armies.
I am not a supporter of bolshevism. As an anarchist I think they crushed the genuine revolution. But they were an ocean better than the whites
Anyway I think that metals for these is wrong - there should be a plastic box of troops so that we can field troop choices without having to sell our children
merry christmas all

NakedFisherman
12-12-2005, 21:37
I also don't want to get innto the politics of this . But I find it difficult to let that one go.
The 'white' armies were conscripted and brutalised peasants who butchered any suspected 'reds' as soon as they saw them,in the context of civil war this meant anybody who could be considered a worker would be shot or strung up.
In the eyes of the tsarist generals bolshevik and jew were synonymous- jews were massacred in numbers that were only surpassed by the nazis 20 years later; whatever the crimes and mistakes of the leninists (and there were many) it was the fear of, and experience of, the white armies that drove many russians to side with them.
During the civil war the soviet regime was invaded by 14 seperate armies (british, american, german, french, turkish, polish, czech, japanese, finns, austrians etc.etc.) in many ways it seemed impossible for them to win but they did and the behavior of the white armies waas one of the reasons why.
The 'whites' even disgusted their allies in the allied armies.
I am not a supporter of bolshevism. As an anarchist I think they crushed the genuine revolution. But they were an ocean better than the whites
Anyway I think that metals for these is wrong - there should be a plastic box of troops so that we can field troop choices without having to sell our children
merry christmas all

Off topic, but the views on Communists were not limited to Russia.

boogle
12-12-2005, 21:41
the thing with the Vostroyans is,, they are i niche IG release, like the Steel Legion, therefore it would have been a business decision to make them in Metal (as they have no history to speak of yet), whereas the Valhallans have at least 10 years of models and background behind them, and therefore are a more genuine candidate for the plastics treatment

darren redstar
12-12-2005, 21:44
whereas the Valhallans have at least 10 years of models and background behind them, and therefore are a more genuine candidate for the plastics treatment

yes yes yes yes yes please

boogle
12-12-2005, 21:46
plus the Valhallans have the WW2 Russian look going for them (and we all know who the top 2 armies for WW2 wargamers are don't we?)

darren redstar
12-12-2005, 21:50
though actually I have got some of the excelsior entertainment plastic imperials http://www.excelsiorentertainment.com/Browse_Item_Details.asp/Item_ID/1172/categ_id/28/parent_ids/0,1,2,28/Name/Imperial_Regular_Assault_Force_(40)
which make damn fine guard and at $35 a throw (24 even with postage!) for 40 say ha ha to you GW

darren redstar
12-12-2005, 21:52
and I got the bauhaus militia http://www.excelsiorentertainment.com/Browse_Item_Details.asp/Item_ID/1173/categ_id/15/parent_ids/0,1,4,15/Name/Bauhaus_Ducal_Militia_Assault_Force_(40) as well who are my blood pact chaos traitors

vexa
12-12-2005, 21:56
though actually I have got some of the excelsior entertainment plastic imperials http://www.excelsiorentertainment.com/Browse_Item_Details.asp/Item_ID/1172/categ_id/28/parent_ids/0,1,2,28/Name/Imperial_Regular_Assault_Force_(40)
which make damn fine guard and at $35 a throw (24 even with postage!) for 40 say ha ha to you GW

Wow! Those really look good, and they cost less then GW's. I'll wait and see the Vostroyans before judging, but i'd rather have plastic Steel Legionnaires. Hope they'll make those some day. They're one of the coolest guard models. If they made those i'd consider making a mech guard army.

boogle
12-12-2005, 22:01
hmm, forgot about the Warzone models, its a shame that most of them were pap though

Follow
13-12-2005, 01:50
I also don't want to get innto the politics of this . But I find it difficult to let that one go.
The 'white' armies were conscripted and brutalised peasants who butchered any suspected 'reds' as soon as they saw them,in the context of civil war this meant anybody who could be considered a worker would be shot or strung up.
In the eyes of the tsarist generals bolshevik and jew were synonymous- jews were massacred in numbers that were only surpassed by the nazis 20 years later; whatever the crimes and mistakes of the leninists (and there were many) it was the fear of, and experience of, the white armies that drove many russians to side with them.
During the civil war the soviet regime was invaded by 14 seperate armies (british, american, german, french, turkish, polish, czech, japanese, finns, austrians etc.etc.) in many ways it seemed impossible for them to win but they did and the behavior of the white armies waas one of the reasons why.
The 'whites' even disgusted their allies in the allied armies.
I am not a supporter of bolshevism. As an anarchist I think they crushed the genuine revolution. But they were an ocean better than the whites
Anyway I think that metals for these is wrong - there should be a plastic box of troops so that we can field troop choices without having to sell our children
merry christmas all

Some quick points for you:

1. The "massacre" in Russia was no where near the numbers of the Jews during WW2, if you want to check on another massacre that was comparable to that one, check the Armenian massacre perpetrated by the Turks (which was the example that Hitler drew on for his own massacre).

2. The examples in Russia were a civil war. No doubt some people didn't like it, but when the people in your backyard are threatening to hang you and revolt, you do what ya gotta.

3. You do know what happened after the Bolshevek revolution under Lenin and Stalin, don't you? After seeing that, I can't imagine anyone chastising the whites for doing anything they had to. It's not like the red tactics were any different.

War is only fun when it's little pewter figures on the field, never otherwise. ;)

I'm glad to see some more Russian army influence in 40K, they have a proud heritage and have many aspects to them. They are battle hardened, incredibly intelligent, and hardy warriors; I have a whole world of respect for Russia and most of the former USSR countries and their people. I can't even begin to imagine what so many of them went through.

The name itself has some Russian-Armenian influence to it as well. The suffix "ian" or in this case "yan" is a necessary element in surnames, meaning "son of." Though I have no idea what Vostro means, a name of some sort, but I don't know of any significance.




Follow :)

NakedFisherman
13-12-2005, 06:51
The name itself has some Russian-Armenian influence to it as well. The suffix "ian" or in this case "yan" is a necessary element in surnames, meaning "son of." Though I have no idea what Vostro means, a name of some sort, but I don't know of any significance.

I don't know Russian, but I thought 'vich' (or sometimes 'ich') was the suffix given to names.

I think Vostroyan simply refers to the planet they are from (just like I'm an American -- someone from America). Russian names for places (and probably other things) often end in "y" or "ya". Vostroy or Vostroya is most likely the name of the planet they're from.

cailus
13-12-2005, 07:30
Those Warzone figures are pretty awesome. They are more Imperial Guard looking than the horrid Cadian (US troops circa 1985) or Catachan (horrid Rambo lookalikes) models that GW flog off!

BuckFlashback
13-12-2005, 08:01
They are METAL 'cossack' style IG due out for cities of death (cityfight2) and are armed with 'flintlock' style lasguns.

That sounds really interesting. I can't wait to see these guys if only to see how they do 'flintlock' lasguns. On another note, the more Imperial Guard styles there are the better.

Wimvh
13-12-2005, 13:32
the thing with the Vostroyans is,, they are i niche IG release, like the Steel Legion, therefore it would have been a business decision to make them in Metal

Holy... Steel Legion niche?

I guess most IG players would love plastic Steel Legion.

I would, and I am not an IG player. If they did plastic SL, though...

boogle
13-12-2005, 13:43
yeah, but they were (and still are) a niche release when they 1st came out in 2000

azimaith
13-12-2005, 14:17
Because the Cadians don't resemble a cross between British and American troops in World War 2 themselves or anything. And Commissars aren't over exagerated British officers from the same era. Basilisks aren't very large mortars, and the Leman Russ isn't based on WW2 era tanks either. ;)

1: Yes
2: No, I believe they actually had russian comissars who would shoot you if you retreated in WW2 however, which is where it came from.
3: Basilisks are dwarfed by the guns in WW2, its kind of funny how puny it is.
4: Nope, they're based on WW1 tanks right down to the sponsons.

simonr1978
13-12-2005, 15:48
2: I'm pretty sure this was cleared up earlier. IG Commissars are pretty much a carbon copy of Soviet Commissars. The Commissars attached to the Red Army in WWII were at different points of the war able to countermand the orders of the Red Army Officers and in extreme cases execute or arrest them. Their job was basically to make sure the Army did what the Party (For the Party in WWII read Stalin) expected. Their power waxed and waned throughout, at the start of the war they were very powerful individuals whose authority would only crossed at the peril of the officer concerned.

At the height of some of the most crucial battles the power of the commissars was diminished as the necessity to have the Army properly led became apparent.

As victory became increasingly certain, so the power of the Commissars increased.

colhodg
13-12-2005, 15:48
If Vostroyans do look like cossacks, that just means us Valhallan players get cossack platoons to go with out russians...so i'm wondering if they'll do a mounted model? God knows we need some new RRider figs - though this isn't very city fight, admittedly.

City fight to me says few tanks, shotguns/smg type weapons, new doctrines maybe. If they're going for a lo tech feel maybe heavy stubbers in the units? Suppose it depends on the rules, which I can't see being much more than a revision to the current cityfight codex.
I agree with other posters that another niche IG army, whilst cool, isn't nearly as anticipated as a plastics sprue for existing armies - preferably an SL/Valhallan one - think we might be in for a long wait there...

Starchild
13-12-2005, 16:00
Actually, if you look at the cultures of humanity throughout the ages a two headed bird is present in almost all of them at some time or another, the eagle is a symbol of power generally too, so a two headed eagle is hardly an uncommon thing.The two-headed eagle comes from ancient Sumer (3,000+ B.C.). It was the symbol of the god Ninurta. He was said to be able to fly through the air, leading his armies in war.

chiaroscuros
13-12-2005, 16:08
the warzone figures are nice but...

cons
1. the plastic is a lot harder than GWS so it is tough to modify them (but still easier than modifying metal steel legion figures).
2. there are only two poses for the basic trooper
3. they are not legal for GWS tourneys
4. making kneeling figures for the heavy weapons conversions is fairly advanced work (but can be done)
5. you need to have a bunch of GWS lasguns bits lying around to do weapon swaps and because the plastic is a lot harder, this requires some work.
6. they don't look bad up close. but they don't have the level of detail we have come to expect from GWS.
6. the company is sometimes slow to ship/reply (my models took three weeks to arrive even though i paid for 2 day delivery).

pros
1. they are cheap
2. they look great
3. they are plastic
4. if you swap out their weapons with lasguns and change their backpacks and most people won't even realize that they aren't legal.
5. did i mention cheap? 40 figures for $35...
6. really cheap...

chiaroscuros
13-12-2005, 16:21
one last thought about those warzone figures...

if GWS put out a plastic steel legion set or some other guard set that has more of a dark feel, i would immediately sell off my 40 converted warzone figures and buy GWS.

but i will never buy metal guard figures!!! why can't they understand this?!?!?

guard requires tons of models in its army and that demand conversions. GWS have done really well so far with catachan, cadians and SM scouts. while they are not perfectly compatible, they are close enough for me to make it work. but these three sets are missing a darker and more stark type of model that is really needed in the 40k universe. gas masks, ragged and tattered clothing, trench helmets, etc...

but until they make something like this in plastic, i will continue to cut up catachans and cadians and look outside the GWS range at companies like the warzone.

p.s. which reminds me of another negative for the warzone figures. the figures are made in 4 pieces (head, left arm, right arm, and a single torso/leg assembly). so getting a lot of different poses is challenging. but they are plastic, cheap and look great (theme-wise).

Follow
13-12-2005, 18:47
I don't know Russian, but I thought 'vich' (or sometimes 'ich') was the suffix given to names.

I think Vostroyan simply refers to the planet they are from (just like I'm an American -- someone from America). Russian names for places (and probably other things) often end in "y" or "ya". Vostroy or Vostroya is most likely the name of the planet they're from.

That could be too, and probably more likely than the surname referrence. I looked for any definition I could find of "Vostro" and all I could come up with were vague referrences to the Russian equivilent of the word "Ghetto." :p

I doubt GW intended for their new release to be "Sons of the Ghetto," so the planet being named Vostroy is much more feasible to me. Though the Russian-Armenian referrence would have been awesome in my opinion.... Ah well.




Follow :)

hellwraith
13-12-2005, 19:51
just for referance you do know the land raider is based on a ww2 tank right?

Kyuss
13-12-2005, 20:46
umm... the first tanks in WW1. Look at how basic the Land Raiders' shape is to a Leman Russ (based on the soviet T34 if I'm not mistaken)

simonr1978
13-12-2005, 21:04
Have you ever seen pictures of a T-34.....?

I think you're very much mistaken, unless you consider having tracks and a turret to be "Based on".....

Festus
13-12-2005, 21:19
Hi

just for referance you do know the land raider is based on a ww2 tank right?

Negative. The Land Raider is originally based on a cross between a Mark IV, a Mark V and a Tadpole tank, all of them WWI tanks.

Greetings
Festus

borka
13-12-2005, 21:36
I think the real world tank most similar to a Leman Russ would be the french B1 bis from ww2, with the guns swapped and sponsons added. The chimera has a more soviet style, in my opinion.

/Borka

Smoking Frog
13-12-2005, 21:54
The Leman Russ Battle Tank.

http://www.hillcity-comics.com/role_play/gw/47-06.gif


The Soviet T-34 Medium Battle Tank.

http://www.rafitalia.net/T-34-2.jpg


The French Char B1 bis

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/france/B1-bis.jpg


First World War British Tanks (they did invent it...)

http://www.tanks4hire.co.uk/media/WW1.jpg
http://www.wartours.com/WW1%20Tank.jpg
http://www.armour-models.co.uk/images/PanzerShop/Mkb.jpg


I would say that the Leman Russ Battle Tank draws inspiration from a variety of sources, as opposed to just one.

On topic, I'm honestly looking forward to seeing pictures of this new IG regiment, I may be able to add to my collection. I have such a thingy for fur coats, I believe they'd be awesome.

cailus
13-12-2005, 23:23
I think the real world tank most similar to a Leman Russ would be the french B1 bis from ww2, with the guns swapped and sponsons added. The chimera has a more soviet style, in my opinion.

/Borka

The Chimera reminds me of a Russian BMP AIFV. Landraider reaks of early WWI British tanks.

Leman Russ is very World War I or early WWII - it's a very tall design (e.g. M4) and is clearly a shock weapon. Later WWII tanks such as the M26 Pershing and T-34 were sleeker designs and their design philosophy has continued to the present day.

Rykion
13-12-2005, 23:41
Both the Land Raider and Leman Russ are based on the basic design of the British Mk IV/ V tanks. The Leman Russ basically just added a turret. The Land Raider got wider and more "high-tech" looking. Evidently they forgot the advantage of sloped armor and the next to useless nature of sponson mounted weapons in the far future. ;)

ratatosk
14-12-2005, 00:19
The Cadians are dominant because they are plastic, and thus the cheapest and easiest to convert of the IG armies, the Catachan plastics are quite poor in my opinion when compared to the Cadians which offer alot more scope.

Also the Cats where the first of the "new" regiments, one of the reasons they previously dominated.

Personally though i have around 300 Mordian figures.. with only a third painted :(

cailus
14-12-2005, 00:31
Both the Land Raider and Leman Russ are based on the basic design of the British Mk IV/ V tanks. The Leman Russ basically just added a turret. The Land Raider got wider and more "high-tech" looking. Evidently they forgot the advantage of sloped armor and the next to useless nature of sponson mounted weapons in the far future. ;)

I think that the side sponsons and lack of sloped armour as well as the high profile might be the tactical philosophy of the Imperium. The Leman Russ is probably used more as a line breaker. It rumbles across the battlefield and charges enemy positions. At such close range the Battle Cannon is near useless and the heavy bolter/flamer sponsons are used to engage infantry who get too close. The high profile makes the tank look more monstrous and thus increases its psychological impact on enemy troops.

Arguably the Imerium appears to shun long range warfare. Short range firefights and close combat are preferred because that is where you really prove your loyalty to the Emperor. Sitting 100 miles away from the enemy lobbing cruise missiles at your enemy is considered cowardly.

This applies to vehicles as well. Given the superstitious nature of the Imperium, it is beleived that all technology has a machine spirit. This is not just the basic AI upgrade, but that all machines have spirits within them, be it a wrench or a starship. So even a Leman Russ has to prove its loyalty to the Emperor by bravely charging into enemy trenches.

All of this seems to be backed up by the fact that the Leman Russ is based on STC templates. The STC creates designs based on specifications. The Leman Russ is obviously based on rather poor, old fashioned specifications. But the STC delivered what it was asked of - a case of garbage in, garbage out. Furthermore as the Imperium's collection of STC templates is poor and corrupted by millenia of decay, it's quite possible that the Leman Russ template was the only heavily armed MBT template has found (Landraider doesn't count - it does not pack such heavy armament as a Leman Russ and is also designed as a troop transport).

If a functioning STC was found, and you put in modern 21st century specs into it, it would probably churn out a tank a lot better than the M1A2 Abrams - a stealthy,lightweight, virtually invulnerable machine of death packing weapons more similar to the Hammerhead railgun than the rather primitive 120mm cannon and heavy bolters found on the Leman Russ.

Rykion
14-12-2005, 01:01
The only real reason for the Leman Russ's appearance is the designers thought it looked cool. That also explains the main gun which looks about 300mm or so in actual scale. High profile + non-sloped armor + sponson mounted weapons + one-man turret + rivets = dead tank. The thing would have to survive getting to the enemy to scare them, and it would never realistically do that. That's why I usually tell my logic center to shut up and just enjoy the game. :p

Smoking Frog
14-12-2005, 01:20
Oh, I don't know... if it had serious armour, I assume it could stand a hell of a lot.

The Israelis made a tank/apc that can take most anti-tank weapons in use in the area and allow it to deliver its passengers unharmed (the Merkava APC). Most modern apc's (and battle tanks even) can't take a direct hit from even an RPG. The Leman Russ I assume would be able to take most except for the Eldar's lances.

Rykion
14-12-2005, 01:31
The Merkava is a perfect example of a tank with a low profile, sloped armor, and a large turret. It is basically the exact opposite of the Leman Russ. The armor slope is a key feature in defeating AT weapons. It does look to have some rivets, but I'm sure none go through to the crew compartment.

The Leman Russ is meant to be a design easy to mass produce on worlds with mid-20th Century tech or even below that. It would have to have many times the armor of a Merkava to withstand the same weapon, and the Russ's simplistic design doesn't indicate this to be true.

neXus6
14-12-2005, 01:54
Meanwhile The Armageddon Basilisk (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/basenc.htm) and this. (http://www.ndu.edu/nwc/nwcCLIPART/FOREIGN_MIL_EQUIPMENT/Artillery-Mortars/Russian/2S19152mmHowSP1.jpg)
This is actually a bad example, I found a WW2 soviet self-propelled gun that looked even more like the enclosed basilisk, but I don't have the pictures on this computer.

I just want to see more plastic guardsmen. Yes the metal models are really nice, the Steel Legion showed that but a whole army is so insainly expensive. I've got 96 men in my 1000pt guard army. I would like to remake it with Steel Legion but at 20 a 10 man squad, and that is IF I can find the boxed units somewhere. Well nuff said really.
We need more plastic guard. The Cadians are nice, especially since the Catachans just didn't work right, but we really need some more. Rather than, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves...etc...etc, without more marines Orks and Guard would both have the variation they deserve.

NorthernMike
14-12-2005, 04:26
I would guess that the "platoon" set includes:

1 command squad with a commissar and 1 special weapon;
2 platoons both with 2 different special weapons (probably a flamer and a melta), and 2 different Heavy weapons (heavy bolter and missile launcher)

But i bet you will be able to get mortars and other special weapons as well. I jsut think they will have mortars and flamers since they are for the cityfight campaign. And well commissars just because it suits them. Interesting that they are coming in the "platoon" set rather than the traditional 10 guy squad set.

As much as I like the plastics and with longcoats came plastic. It would be a real treat if these the platoon set had more than 25 models. 35ish would be dreaming.

NakedFisherman
14-12-2005, 04:43
The platoon is probably just similar to the army boxes of new armies that come out. The releases of special and heavy weapons teams are most likely just something to come afterward and they simply aren't on Alliance Games' list of releases.

By the way, Alliance Games for some reason has their release dates with the most distant at the top of the list.

Smoking Frog
14-12-2005, 10:39
The Merkava is a perfect example of a tank with a low profile, sloped armor, and a large turret. It is basically the exact opposite of the Leman Russ. The armor slope is a key feature in defeating AT weapons. It does look to have some rivets, but I'm sure none go through to the crew compartment.

The Leman Russ is meant to be a design easy to mass produce on worlds with mid-20th Century tech or even below that. It would have to have many times the armor of a Merkava to withstand the same weapon, and the Russ's simplistic design doesn't indicate this to be true.

Yes, of course. Silly me, I knew I screwed it up somewhere. I just assumed that the Leman Russ would have hell-thick armour to comensate for its height, but yes, you're definitely right.


See kids, drink typing screws marriages.

Rykion
14-12-2005, 14:52
The Leman Russ can't have very thick armor on it's turret as the turret is too small to carry it. Thick armor would make the turret a solid lump with no room for gun or the tank commander. The riveted armor appears to be the extent of its exterior protection. It does not have the bolted on appearance of modern ablative armor. It does have the look of the thinnly armored rivetted tanks of WW I and II. A rivet that goes from the exterior of the tank and into the crew compartment is deadly to the tanks crew. An explosive hit stopped by the tanks armor is likely to destroy some of the rivet heads, sending the rest of the rivet bouncing around inside like a bullet. That is why tanks went to cast or welded hulls.

Edit: I would love to see Imperial Guard tanks that look primitive and tough as nails, but I think the current Leman Russ falls short.

colhodg
14-12-2005, 15:17
Battle tanks designed by ex-hippies with gaming obsessions, this is why the imperium is in such a state, no?

Guess we can assume that tanks won't be a big feature of cityfight rules (wasn't there a rult for hitting top (rear) armour in the old one if you were on an upper floor?) so what other thing should be in a cityfight codex?
Snipers?
Heavy flamers in units like jungle troops?
Patrol units that pop up in the enemy DZ, as with catachans?
More demo charges?

NakedFisherman
14-12-2005, 15:25
The Leman Russ can't have very thick armor on it's turret as the turret is too small to carry it. Thick armor would make the turret a solid lump with no room for gun or the tank commander. The riveted armor appears to be the extent of its exterior protection. It does not have the bolted on appearance of modern ablative armor. It does have the look of the thinnly armored rivetted tanks of WW I and II. A rivet that goes from the exterior of the tank and into the crew compartment is deadly to the tanks crew. An explosive hit stopped by the tanks armor is likely to destroy some of the rivet heads, sending the rest of the rivet bouncing around inside like a bullet. That is why tanks went to cast or welded hulls.

Tanks went to cast or welded hulls as manufacturers were able to create welded and cast hulls with more ease.

Rivets aren't necessarily dangerous to the crew as the only weakness, but simply that the design of riveted armor lowers protection. While most tank armor isn't weakened much at all by successive hits, riveted armor tends to be weakened more by this. Not to mention the rivets themselves create weak points. In simple terms, riveted armor offers less protection than an equal thickness of welded armor. Cast armor also has lowered effectiveness against large calibre rounds (I'm thinking along the lines of 75mm and up).

Riveted armor was generally light, anyway, with most riveted armor being on the Czech 35(t) and 38(t) of WWII or the Italian Semovente SPGs and M-model tanks. Their armor was too weak to resist most anti-tank rounds, so the notion of a rivet coming loose and injuring the crew inside is secondary to the fact that an anti-tank round can kill by spalling or simple penetration anyway. I'm not certain of this, but I figure spalling will injure and kill crews of tanks with near-penetrations that would also snap rivets.

Then again, having spall and rivets flying around inside the tank together doesn't help the situation much.

Rykion
14-12-2005, 15:38
Riveted armor was generally light, anyway, with most riveted armor being on the Czech 35(t) and 38(t) of WWII or the Italian Semovente SPGs and M-model tanks. Their armor was too weak to resist most anti-tank rounds, so the notion of a rivet coming loose and injuring the crew inside is secondary to the fact that an anti-tank round can kill by spalling or simple penetration anyway. I'm not certain of this, but I figure spalling will injure and kill crews of tanks with near-penetrations that would also snap rivets.

Then again, having spall and rivets flying around inside the tank together doesn't help the situation much.

The lightness of most riveted armor and the tendency of rivets coming loose was my basic point there. If the Imperium has created very thick riveted armor, the part where rivets come loose and kill the crew will be more of a problem. That is to say, the thicker the armor riveted on, the more rivets become an Achilles heel to the overall protection. It still boils down to the design of a Leman Russ is a death sentence to its crew.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
14-12-2005, 18:01
The Leman Russ is meant to be a design easy to mass produce on worlds with mid-20th Century tech or even below that.

Yeah, because worlds with a mid 20th century tech level could really produce bolt and laser weaponry...:rolleyes:



It would have to have many times the armor of a Merkava to withstand the same weapon, and the Russ's simplistic design doesn't indicate this to be true

Its just a fantasy tank in a fantasy universe. I'm sure if you put the merkava or equivalent in the 40k setting it would be laughably pathetic, and not even able to dent a russ.

Rob

Rykion
14-12-2005, 18:17
Yeah, because worlds with a mid 20th century tech level could really produce bolt and laser weaponry...:rolleyes:

Its just a fantasy tank in a fantasy universe. I'm sure if you put the merkava or equivalent in the 40k setting it would be laughably pathetic, and not even able to dent a russ.

Rob

The part about it being easy to mass produce on relatively low tech levels is from the 40k background. I think they've even implied some Russ's built on very low tech worlds are steam powered. It's GW's universe so they can say that a Leman Russ is many times better than a modern main battle tank, but its basic design was antiquated by the early 1940's.

NakedFisherman
16-12-2005, 15:44
The part about it being easy to mass produce on relatively low tech levels is from the 40k background. I think they've even implied some Russ's built on very low tech worlds are steam powered. It's GW's universe so they can say that a Leman Russ is many times better than a modern main battle tank, but its basic design was antiquated by the early 1940's.

Depending on how quickly they can be manufactured and their crews trained, they very well may be "better" than a modern tank. I know you see lots of Leman Russ tanks in the Imperial Guard, so I'm assuming the necessity of having a tank being able to be built on many worlds and shipped fairly easy is a large point in the Imperium.

Rykion
16-12-2005, 18:09
Depending on how quickly they can be manufactured and their crews trained, they very well may be "better" than a modern tank. I know you see lots of Leman Russ tanks in the Imperial Guard, so I'm assuming the necessity of having a tank being able to be built on many worlds and shipped fairly easy is a large point in the Imperium.
I understand that it could be seen like TIE fighters in Star Wars; cheap and expendable, but produced in mass quantities like those who pilot them. It's just the armor stats given the Leman Russ in 40k indicate it is one of the best armored vehicles available. Its physical design and relatively low tech level don't really indicate such a well defended vehicle.

Sir Charles
16-12-2005, 18:45
Well we don't know the material the hull is made of, or do we?, so it could be that that has an effect of sorts.

Rykion
16-12-2005, 19:12
The problem for the idea of Leman Russ's being made out of a superior armor material is that it would complicate production. Anything better than steel is likely to be harder to produce, and there wouldn't be a reason to choose non-sloped armor and rivets except ease of production. It's simply that the designers went for what they felt looked cool rather than any sort of realistic tank design. It's just a nitpick of mine, not something major.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
16-12-2005, 19:59
The part about it being easy to mass produce on relatively low tech levels is from the 40k background.

Low tech by imperial standards. That is still lots better than the mid 20th century :D



I think they've even implied some Russ's built on very low tech worlds are steam powered.

The powerplant of the russ is designed to be able to accept many kinds of fuel though, including most types of biomass, such as wood and vegetation. I don't recall any fluff about a steam powered one though.



It's GW's universe so they can say that a Leman Russ is many times better than a modern main battle tank, but its basic design was antiquated by the early 1940's.

Or not. It may look that way, but fluff descriptions of the tank indicate this is not the case.

Rob

Rubberanvil
17-12-2005, 08:10
The Israelis made a tank/apc that can take most anti-tank weapons in use in the area and allow it to deliver its passengers unharmed (the Merkava APC). Merkevas are not (H)APCs, Merk crews have to throw out the main gun ammo just to fit in more than 2-4 passengers. Namera HAPCs are Merkevas converted to HAPCs.

alphaecho
17-12-2005, 09:14
Originally posted on DakkaDakka.

Vostroyan Platoon being released first followed by smaller elements. "Firstborn"? Sounds like some higher level 'Born to Rule' type.

04/17/06
*TYRANID LICTOR - DEATH LEAPER
*VOSTROYAN PLATOON
*TYRANID BIOVORE

04/24/06
*TAU VESPID STINGWINGS
*TAU VESPID STINGWINGS
*TAU AUN VA , MASTER OF THE UNDYING SPIRIT
*WHITE DWARF 316

05/01/06
*FALL OF MEDUSA FIVE
*TAU SKY RAY
*IMPERIAL GUARD VOSTROYAN FIRSTBORN
*TAU COMMANDER SHADOWSUN

05/08/06
*VOSTROYAN LASCANNON TEAM
*IMPERIAL GUARD VOSTROYAN COMMAND SQUAD

05/15/06
*VOSTROYAN MORTAR TEAM
*VOSTROYAN OFFICERS

05/22/06
*VOSTROYAN ASSAULT WEAPONS

05/29/06
*ORK KOMMANDO WITH BURNER
*RAZOR WIRE
*CITIES OF DEATH BATTLEMAT
*40K BUILDINGS: IMPERIAL CITY
*40K EXPANSION: CITIES OF DEATH
*WHITE DWARF 317
*URBAN BASING KIT

TheOneWithNoName
17-12-2005, 09:39
Can't wait for the mortar teams :rolleyes:

Ki-Adi-Monkey
17-12-2005, 16:56
I think Vostroyan Firstborn are most likely the Vostroyan grenadier (same thing as kasrkin in cadian armies).

Rob

ArtificerArmour
17-12-2005, 17:10
i don't think so, i think it'll be a special character or commander.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
18-12-2005, 17:22
i don't think so, i think it'll be a special character or commander.

Highly unlikely, especially for the commander as their is an officer blister on the list anyway.

Rob

neXus6
18-12-2005, 17:27
Well massed mortar fire can be pretty damn brutal.

I think the firstborn will probably be a veteran/kasrkin style unit. Could be a cavalry unit it, I could see firstborns riding something while the grunts footslog it. Think that would fit with the Tsarist theme to.

boogle
19-12-2005, 03:43
they aren't available yet, and even if they were they wouldn't be allowed to be posted at the minute as there are outside the timescale for pics to be taken

Swoo
19-12-2005, 03:55
Shame, I would really like to see them push the Valhallans more than creating a new IG regiment that possibly shares many of it's real world connections with the Valhallans.

It would just be nice because you could push a nice artic army that could also double as a more rag-tag unit for the new cityfight coming up, plus get cracking on updating the Orks since they tie in nicely with the Val's.

neXus6
19-12-2005, 04:43
Well things like Stalingrad hardly make a soviet russian army any less appealing for city fight.

I really think they should have done new IG plastics rather than another whole metal army just for this one book. It can't be that much more expensive to make a plastic mould than a metal one can it? And new plastics would sell far far better anyway, plus all the heavy weapon moulds are already in place.
*shrug*

Jo Bennett
19-12-2005, 08:19
Yes it can be that much more expensive. Moulds for plastic are steel and cost ~10k compared to 10s or 100s for moulds for metal.

boogle
09-01-2006, 22:12
http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/93/forumid/6/postid/22828/view/topic/Default.aspx here seems to be the definitive proof that the Vostroyans aren't plastic, but in fact metal

TWB
10-01-2006, 09:25
The powerplant of the russ is designed to be able to accept many kinds of fuel though, including most types of biomass, such as wood and vegetation. I don't recall any fluff about a steam powered one though.

I think it's implied if not actually stated, Point being the vehicle can be adapted to run on whatever is available to make it run.

The Firstborn, Obviously we are looking at some kind of "elite" unit, it's been speculated that they could be cavalry although I'm thinking that, given the fact they are being released for CoD, Stormtroopers or Hardened Veterans might be more likely
.