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View Full Version : All you want to say about guard but you cannot in the rumours forum.



Da Black Gobbo
18-03-2009, 16:59
Hi folks, i'd like to transport here all the discussion that is filling the rumours guard thread, i'd like you to start the discussion talking about what you want, so the rumours forum may still beein a rumours forum, not a "guys don't want to search in the 510000x10^4321 other pages, so can anybody say me..." forum.

Akuma
18-03-2009, 17:14
I want to say/ask that if ST can use orders - 30 Shots from them at BS4 will be much more then compensation for the increased cost - did anyone acctualy thought about that ?

Thank You.

Bloodknight
18-03-2009, 17:26
No, because that is what Commanders are supposed to pay for. Paying for passive abilities is dumb when the unit that grants them is dead, if you know what I mean.

stainawarjar
18-03-2009, 17:32
I uh... This sure is a strange thread ;)

Anyway, I think the new cost of the Hydra is perfect if you mathhammer and compare them to Ork Lootas.

3 hydras: 225 points, 12 shots, 9 hits

15 lootas: 225 points, 30 shots, 10 hits

Oh and look the Hydras have heavy bolters too :D

tuebor
18-03-2009, 17:36
I uh... This sure is a strange thread ;)

Anyway, I think the new cost of the Hydra is perfect if you mathhammer and compare them to Ork Lootas.

3 hydras: 225 points, 12 shots, 9 hits

15 lootas: 225 points, 30 shots, 10 hits

Oh and look the Hydras have heavy bolters too :D

Yeah, but 3 Hydras are much easier to kill than 15 Lootas. Of course, target saturation with Leman Russes would probably offset this.

Da Black Gobbo
18-03-2009, 18:02
I don't know man 15 Lootas with a 4+ cover...hydras die to almost anything that outflanks and have a decent shooting/close combat abbility.

Mannimarco
18-03-2009, 18:14
im not to sure about taking hydras at all, nice to have in the background but not on the table i always thought

i will be using the exterminator with 3 heavy bolters though, lots more firepower and more armour, probably take an executioner as well just for the multiple blast templates

AmBlam
18-03-2009, 19:13
I'm thinking IG will lose its association with dedicated WH players and become the new noobs list.

I am hoping there is motivation in the codex other than profit.

Sir_Turalyon
18-03-2009, 19:17
Will it? There is still prohibitive number of models to be bought and painted which should filter off all but rich, not-lazy noobs. Most should stay with their 35 model marines armies.

borithan
18-03-2009, 19:24
No, because that is what Commanders are supposed to pay for. Paying for passive abilities is dumb when the unit that grants them is dead, if you know what I mean.But you have to factor the cost into each unit, as otherwise you will have larger armies paying the same for greater ability. Sure, the fact that any special abilities can be lost if certain units are dead has to be factored into that, but the cost would have to be carried with the individual units, rather than the one that grants them.

For example, a larger army would have more units to use the orders, but if the orders costs are carried in the command squads, they would be paying the same as a smaller army less able to use the orders. True, the limits to the number of orders does already slightly prevent this, but that should be factored into the cost, not mean that it is carried by a command squad.

AmBlam
18-03-2009, 23:04
Will it? There is still prohibitive number of models to be bought and painted which should filter off all but rich, not-lazy noobs. Most should stay with their 35 model marines armies.

It would be cool to see more IG than SM armies but I doubt that will happen. I can imagine kids who want a win maybe choosing them.

TBH I think it is a massive feature of the IG army that it is actually quite bad. IG will be completely redefined.

DarkMatter2
18-03-2009, 23:23
From what I have seen of the new points costs you can lay to rest any fear that IG will be OP or the new "kid's army."

Marneus Calgar
18-03-2009, 23:39
People think that giving frags to guardsmen is a good thing. Giving frags to guardsmen is extremely moot. Guardsmens cost 50 points, unlike 40 which many have hoped. Guardsmen now have *free* frags and the ability to get orders, though these frags are pointless. We will pay the points we saved through the HQ's which give out these orders. It is likely that our HQ choices are going to increase by 10-20 points (at least).

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
19-03-2009, 01:19
People think that giving frags to guardsmen is a good thing. Giving frags to guardsmen is extremely moot. Guardsmens cost 50 points, unlike 40 which many have hoped. Guardsmen now have *free* frags and the ability to get orders, though these frags are pointless. We will pay the points we saved through the HQ's which give out these orders. It is likely that our HQ choices are going to increase by 10-20 points (at least).

Frag gernades give you str 4 against vehicles. It lets a regular squad assault and damage a vehicle with a rear armour of 10 should their meltagun or gernade launcher not be enough. Also, if you have a squad of guard charging orks in cover it is useful.

Don't say, "why would you ever want to charge orks!?!" I am not talking about sending a 10 man squad at 30 orks. There are always times when it is more beneficial to take a squad and charge what is left of a mob of boyz then let them charge you if you can't finish them off.

The frag gernades also benefit Guardsmen when charging Tau in cover.

Tau and Orks are two of my regular opponents, so a drop in 10 points with free frag gernades are great! Not so much against marines, but necrons are another I2 army that frag gernades could help with.


I want to say/ask that if ST can use orders - 30 Shots from them at BS4 will be much more then compensation for the increased cost - did anyone acctualy thought about that ?


I was just thinking about that. That order really helps their effectiveness.

Since the +1 shot volley order affects rapid fire weapons, I was just thinking how nasty my H.Vet squad with 3 plasma guns and a plasma pistol is going to be hoping out of a transport.

Looking at the points listed in the rumours, depending on how you build your list, I don't think we will be fielding much more or less if we use the same list we have been using. We will just have some more options and pop with orders and certain units.

Edonil
19-03-2009, 01:39
wait, Guardsmen are getting frags? :wtf: Is it just me, or is 5th edition going to become an edition where charging through cover is almost utterly pointless?
'My Tau are in cover, so I get to go first!'
"My Guardsmen have frag grenades for free, so we go at initiative order!"
'...Why did I bother hiding in cover like that then?'
"I don't know."

Doppleskanger
19-03-2009, 02:01
Is it just me, or is 5th edition going to become an edition where charging through cover is almost utterly pointless?
."

I've been wondering about that myself

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 03:38
Yeah, but 3 Hydras are much easier to kill than 15 Lootas.

Not sure about that. And the hydras ignore cover saves from skimmers moving fast and turbo-boosting as well, thanks to their tracking systems :angel:.

Kalishnikov-47
19-03-2009, 03:48
wait, Guardsmen are getting frags? :wtf: Is it just me, or is 5th edition going to become an edition where charging through cover is almost utterly pointless?
'My Tau are in cover, so I get to go first!'
"My Guardsmen have frag grenades for free, so we go at initiative order!"
'...Why did I bother hiding in cover like that then?'
"I don't know."

Because Guardians and Orks usually dont have frag grenades? haha.

Necrons still would strike last(unless there is an ability that negates this), most basic troopers other than marines and guardsmen will be striking last unless they bought an upgrade of flesh hooks.

Edonil
19-03-2009, 04:01
True, but Orks don't really need frag grenades or the equivalent...they make up for it with four attacks a model. Beyond that, Eldar were done before the trend of nearly everyone getting frag grenades for free. We'll see if the trend continues...

Bloodknight
19-03-2009, 04:22
Also, Eldar Guardians have a history of costing too much and doing too little.

Frep
19-03-2009, 04:43
I like the new guard codex, but I really don't see any use for the new stormtroopers 16 points for something no more durable than fire warriors and a bunch of special rules that are either going to be tricky to use effectively, even if you can get your stormtroopers close enough to do some damage, they are almost certainly going to get killed.

Edonil
19-03-2009, 04:47
I'd pay 16 points for the new stormtroopers, what are you nuts? Rapid Fire, AP3, 4+ armor save (decent enough for guard), sure they've only got an 18 inch range at best, but who cares. 160 points for 10, and the potential to shred marines running out in the open? I'm a Sisters player, and the rumors I've read about them make me cringe.

MajorWesJanson
19-03-2009, 04:52
Even at 160 points I can see uses for stormtroopers. They are definately precision strike troops, though a valkerye and scout combine to make a very nice squad to drop into enemy lines at the start of the game. Scout and pinning, chew up a marine squad and maybe pin it, and have a unit that has to be dealt with at the start, giving you time to move everyone else in position.

dugaal
19-03-2009, 05:32
Just a thought about all the orders and special rules;
Does anyone think it might end up a bit too complicated? Assuming you have 3+ command squads and special characters issuing Orders to all these squads, and all the pinned after-effects, overwatch etc. Guard players are going to have a whole lot to keep track of in addition to the increase of troops needed overall.

Also with Stromtroopers as Elites troop for Guard 16 pts...
I'd pay 16 points for the new stormtroopers, what are you nuts? Rapid Fire, AP3, 4+ armor save (decent enough for guard), sure they've only got an 18 inch range at best, but who cares. 160 points for 10, and the potential to shred marines running out in the open? I'm a Sisters player, and the rumors I've read about them make me cringe.
I agree. BS4 AP3 4+ save with bonus options seems worth it, especially with the 'premium' tax placed on elites

Also, frags should be an option, at least to keep the range of guard regiments to go from peasants->high tech with more flexibility. The problem with frags being everywhere is cyclical; they become less special the more units get them free, lowering their value and making them ubiquitous....

Marneus Calgar
19-03-2009, 05:35
Frag gernades give you str 4 against vehicles. It lets a regular squad assault and damage a vehicle with a rear armour of 10 should their meltagun or gernade launcher not be enough. Also, if you have a squad of guard charging orks in cover it is useful.

Don't say, "why would you ever want to charge orks!?!" I am not talking about sending a 10 man squad at 30 orks. There are always times when it is more beneficial to take a squad and charge what is left of a mob of boyz then let them charge you if you can't finish them off.

The frag gernades also benefit Guardsmen when charging Tau in cover.

Tau and Orks are two of my regular opponents, so a drop in 10 points with free frag gernades are great! Not so much against marines, but necrons are another I2 army that frag gernades could help with.



Why would I assault that unit when I could just shoot them to death? If the squad is already small enough for my infantry to assault, why would I risk of losing a couple of my guardsmen in close combat when I could shoot them? Charging two full squads against a Necron Warrior unit is going to down a single warrior after WWB, that's hardly a cause of celebration.


If my guardsmen squad does manage to be within 6 inches (after moving) and my melta gun flops, I have about .83 chance of glancing the vehicle if it has a rear armor of 10. I would rather have them keep the frags at home and lower the cost of the infantry squad by 5(10) points.


I'd pay 16 points for the new stormtroopers, what are you nuts? Rapid Fire, AP3, 4+ armor save (decent enough for guard), sure they've only got an 18 inch range at best, but who cares. 160 points for 10, and the potential to shred marines running out in the open? I'm a Sisters player, and the rumors I've read about them make me cringe.






That or I could spend 140(150 if deepstriking/infiltrate) points on 2 units of 5 stormtroopers each having 2 plasma guns. This squad could kill 5.18 Space Marines within 12 inches. The new stormtrooper squad which is 160 points base will kill 4.44 Space Marines.

Edonil
19-03-2009, 06:09
That or I could spend 140(150 if deepstriking/infiltrate) points on 2 units of 5 stormtroopers each having 2 plasma guns. This squad could kill 5.18 Space Marines within 12 inches. The new stormtrooper squad which is 160 points base will kill 4.44 Space Marines.

Plasma, hellgun, it all ends the same- dead power armor. :D

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 06:23
A thought regarding the Hydra.

It ignores turbob-boost cover saves.

As one generally does not have two of the same save (i.e. one cannot have a 2+ armor and a 3+ armor save), in regards to Ork Bikers turboboosting, would this essentially leave them with no armor and no cover save against Hydra fire if they turboboost?

The idea of Hydras scything through Ork biker units is...appealing.




I'd pay 16 points for the new stormtroopers, what are you nuts? Rapid Fire, AP3, 4+ armor save (decent enough for guard), sure they've only got an 18 inch range at best, but who cares. 160 points for 10, and the potential to shred marines running out in the open? I'm a Sisters player, and the rumors I've read about them make me cringe. at 16pts each with an S3 Rapid Fire weapon, they are incredibly inefficient against horde units, and against their prime targets, 3+ save infantry, they aren't likely to cause enough casualties to a 10man squad to wipe them out, and considering most such units are fearless, Ld10 (often with rerolls), or have ATSKNF, any survivors are likely to stick around and massacre the ST's in combat next turn.

I just don't see them being cost efficient in the vast majority of situations. They've just been given too much stuff that has taken them past the point of diminishing returns in terms of cost-efficiency. Had they just kept the ST the same and made the Hellgun S3 Assault 3 AP5 18" at 10pts, that would have solved the problem and made them far more useful.

DarkMatter2
19-03-2009, 06:31
I agree. Leave the Stormtroopers at 10 pts, but allow them to fire 3 or 4 times and you have a killer unit more in line with the Guard philosophy of quantity >quality.

MajorWesJanson
19-03-2009, 06:53
The Guard has a lot of philosophies. The Stormtroopers are meant to be quality over quantity, as they are specially trained to be potential Inquisition troopers.

DarkMatter2
19-03-2009, 07:08
The Guard has a lot of philosophies. The Stormtroopers are meant to be quality over quantity, as they are specially trained to be potential Inquisition troopers.

Quality in a law enforcement raid, for example, is not the same thing as quality in an all out war with alien horrors.

Since the Stormtroopers are little more than Arbites with Hellguns, I doubt they are meant to be world beaters.

They simply offer more operational flexibility - doesn't mean over all that they don't fit the Quantity > Quality mindset of the IG.

Marneus Calgar
19-03-2009, 07:09
A thought regarding the Hydra.

It ignores turbob-boost cover saves.

As one generally does not have two of the same save (i.e. one cannot have a 2+ armor and a 3+ armor save), in regards to Ork Bikers turboboosting, would this essentially leave them with no armor and no cover save against Hydra fire if they turboboost?

The idea of Hydras scything through Ork biker units is...appealing.





It appears that is the one of the few units which the turbo boost cover save will be ignored. Most (jet)bikes have an armor save of a 3+ which they will fall back on if the Hydra takes away their cover save. I believe Ork and Scout bikers will suffer, yet everything else seems to be ineffective.

invinciblebug
19-03-2009, 07:23
It appears that is the one of the few units which the turbo boost cover save will be ignored. Most (jet)bikes have an armor save of a 3+ which they will fall back on if the Hydra takes away their cover save. I believe Ork and Scout bikers will suffer, yet everything else seems to be ineffective.

Don't forget it also works against skimmer saves so it will be a very nice light skimmer hunter.

RichBlake
19-03-2009, 07:39
Also, Eldar Guardians have a history of costing too much and doing too little.

They also have a history of being armed with lasguns, but no-one mentions that :p

(Bugger, I just mentioned it)

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 13:35
The idea of Hydras scything through Ork biker units is...appealing.

Nob bikers would still get a FnP save, but it certainly helps. Generally I'm more interested in the ability to ignore cover saves for skimmers moving fast, forcing those falcons to actually hug proper cover, like buildings.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 13:39
Nob bikers would still get a FnP save, but it certainly helps. Generally I'm more interested in the ability to ignore cover saves for skimmers moving fast, forcing those falcons to actually hug proper cover, like buildings.

yes, but you'd be inflicting a lot more than you would otherwise, and against normal Ork bikers, they'd just get massacred.

but yeah, knocking off fast moving skimmers is where most of the value will come in.

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 13:53
At 75 points, I'm certainly considering picking up a Hydra or two. It's certainly hard to justify one of my demolishers which now costs 220 points with just the guns and no upgrades at all, when for 5 points more, I could get three hydras. That's a lot of dakka.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 13:58
At 75 points, I'm certainly considering picking up a Hydra or two. It's certainly hard to justify one of my demolishers which now costs 220 points with just the guns and no upgrades at all, when for 5 points more, I could get three hydras. That's a lot of dakka.

Delicious Dakka.

The Hydra's certainly are tempting, especially if given Camo nets and sat in a forest, tank pit, or something similar the whole game.

volair
19-03-2009, 13:58
Tanks may not have the firepower of the artillery and vendettas, but they are considerably harder to take out. Speaking of vendettas, did anyone else notice how good they are? They are basically going to become the de facto anti-tank of the imperial guard. Lascannon heavy teams won't exist anymore.

Mannimarco
19-03-2009, 14:05
just wondering, do people still do that whole "you must get you opponents permission to use forgeworld models"?

if we dont then you could always go back to imperial armour 1, a thunderer siege tank (identical to an demolisher without any upgrades) costs 140 points

Bunnahabhain
19-03-2009, 14:24
Delicious Dakka.

The Hydra's certainly are tempting, especially if given Camo nets and sat in a forest, tank pit, or something similar the whole game.

55pts chimeras as mobile cover....

or

3 x 75pt hydras as more static cover. They have the range to threaten anything of AV 12 or less, and with presumably 8 autocannon shots shots each, enough dakka to kill medium vehicles, light vehicle squadron, or to really hurt medium-light infantry.

math-hammering 24 autocannon shots+ 9 heavy bolters vs mob of ork in the open....
13 dead orks!


Somewhat comparable to a scatter laser war walker squadron- an excess of mid strength dakka. Just more expensive and more vulnerable in CC. Real value probabaly depends on just how the autocannons are set up- I'm hoping for heavy 8, not heavy 4 Twin linked.


A squadron of Hydras, or squadron of griffons for similar crowd control work, at a similar price, looks very tempting.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 14:27
So far.. i prefer the current Guard codex over this one...

18" range stormtroopers = lame.. id prefer str 4 ap5 or str 3 ap 4 and alot cheaper..

Infiltrate / deep strike on them should be optional points upgrade.

currently i run 30x stormtroopers as troops and it works out very nice.. but with new book... Nope.. costs more then a marine squad.

Yea.. they are better vs MEQ now... but worse against orks etc.

The only thing i like in the new codex is the new hellhound rules and the valk vendetta.


5 pt guardsmen ? ooo 1 pt cheaper and rest of their gear costs the same...

Orders just have better be cheap to make them even worth taking more then sticking a few on an objective then running mass Armor.


I do like the new sniper squad idea, i very much dislike ratling models, even the new ones.. but cadians with sniper rifles look nice.


so far... besides a few additions.. i think they could have done better.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 14:30
Originally Posted by Vaktathi
Delicious Dakka.

The Hydra's certainly are tempting, especially if given Camo nets and sat in a forest, tank pit, or something similar the whole game


Sorry area terrain / forests do not give a tank cover saves unless 50% is coverd bye actuall objects..


as for tank pits g/l always getting to have them in your deployment zone.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 14:33
Sorry area terrain / forests do not give a tank cover saves unless 50% is coverd bye actuall objects.. Or if behind area terrain between two terrain objects. I realize tanks need to be 50% covered, it's hard with Leman Russ tanks but not as hard for Chimera hulls. an infantry squad deployed in front should do it.



as for tank pits g/l always getting to have them in your deployment zone.
it was an example of terrain, anything could be used, hiding behind buildings, ruins, hills, etc....

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 14:35
Or if behind area terrain between two terrain objects. I realize tanks need to be 50% covered, it's hard with Leman Russ tanks but not as hard for Chimera hulls. an infantry squad deployed in front should do it.


it was an example of terrain, anything could be used, hiding behind buildings, ruins, hills, etc....

No tanks do not get cover if between two area terrain objects.

50% coverd rule only works for tanks.

invinciblebug
19-03-2009, 14:37
5 pt guardsmen ? ooo 1 pt cheaper and rest of their gear costs the same...


Autocanons, Mortars, lascanons, flamers and grenade launchers are getting cheaper, they get vet. sergeants for free meaning it's actually a 16pts price drop and they are getting frags which admittedly doesn't account for much but it can still be helpful in some situations.

Actually pretty much everything is getting a lot better some way or another, infantry gets cheaper and tanks/elites gets more expensive.

I'm actually happy IG isn't a über cheese army as I'd much rather have a balanced army.

Mannimarco
19-03-2009, 14:40
so would i, all the very same im going to be using imperial armour 1 thunderier siege tank instead of a demolisher, looks like a 100 point saving

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 14:41
No tanks do not get cover if between two area terrain objects.

50% coverd rule only works for tanks.

mmm..it appears you are right, I thought the area terrain thing was a seperate section from the normal infantry cover rules but I guess not.

evilsponge
19-03-2009, 14:46
So far.. i prefer the current Guard codex over this one...

18" range stormtroopers = lame.. id prefer str 4 ap5 or str 3 ap 4 and alot cheaper..

Infiltrate / deep strike on them should be optional points upgrade.

currently i run 30x stormtroopers as troops and it works out very nice.. but with new book... Nope.. costs more then a marine squad.

Yea.. they are better vs MEQ now... but worse against orks etc.

The only thing i like in the new codex is the new hellhound rules and the valk vendetta.


5 pt guardsmen ? ooo 1 pt cheaper and rest of their gear costs the same...

Orders just have better be cheap to make them even worth taking more then sticking a few on an objective then running mass Armor.


I do like the new sniper squad idea, i very much dislike ratling models, even the new ones.. but cadians with sniper rifles look nice.


so far... besides a few additions.. i think they could have done better.

The days of mono armies are done in 40k. Chaos Marines, Demons, and Eldar all got the same treatment. I'm not surprised your all stormtrooper army is now moot

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 14:47
The days of mono armies are done in 40k. Chaos Marines, Demons, and Eldar all got the same treatment. I'm not surprised your all stormtrooper army is now moot

To be fair, they've had allowances for ST armies in every IG list except the first 3rd ed book. 2nd ed, blackbook and the current book all can do ST armies or have provisions for them. Not so with Legions, Craftworlds, etc.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 14:49
Im very glad its not uber cheese, and its perfectly acceptable to me we didnt get 4pt guardsmen, 4pt would have been to cheap.

Them being 5 pts all depends on how much the orders cost.

The main thing i dont get is 55Pt chimera's ? they are horrible transports once again..

add extra armor and the are 70 pts..

why not spend 30 pts more for a Valk that comes with extra armor its looking like. Along with 12/12/10 over 12/10/10.

cover ? .. yea... why not spend 75 pts on griffon mortar tanks to be mobile cover while laying down str 6 ap 4 templates.

My main gripe... 16 pt stormtroopers.. 13-14 pts then option to buy deep strike / infiltrate would have been better.. but the same cost of a space marine that is T 4 3+ save ?

This squad is going to be junk vs orks / nids etc.


I am looking foward to the book for certain things, but others are meh.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 14:54
mmm..it appears you are right, I thought the area terrain thing was a seperate section from the normal infantry cover rules but I guess not.

The hydras "could" be very nice, i never really thought of blocking them with infantry being on the chimera hulls.. It scares me putting infantry that close together thou ( i face alot of whirlwinds / templates)

Only thing i see is.. the griffon morter tanks look very nice for the same cost, its going to be a hard tossup to choose betwee.

the ignore cover saves from fast moving skimmers and bikes is kinda eh to me.. vs a eldar tank.. you still need 5's and 6's. to hurt it.



Is it just me.. or does camo netting cost to much then its worth ?

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 14:59
If you wanted to be a huge d*ck, take 9 Griffons, then take 9 Heavy Mortars as Elites from IA:5

18 S6 AP4 Large blast ordnance weapons for 1080pts.

Bunnahabhain
19-03-2009, 15:02
At spyder68
3+ cover save is not bad. especially on a tank that can easliy be 200pts, and if it's not shooting, has no point.

Lumbering behemoth gets round the worst of the problems of the Ordnance + other weapons set up we have, camo nets give a significantly better chance of being able to fire more, mainly by ignoring those annoying stunned/shaken results 2/3rds the time.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 15:03
i never even thought of taking 9x girffons lol, that could be fun.

9x Basalisks for 1125pts with str 9 ap 3....

then full rest with guard platoons.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 15:04
At spyder68
3+ cover save is not bad. especially on a tank that can easliy be 200pts, and if it's not shooting, has no point.

Lumbering behemoth gets round the worst of the problems of the Ordnance + other weapons set up we have, camo nets give a significantly better chance of being able to fire more, mainly by ignoring those annoying stunned/shaken results 2/3rds the time.

Did i miss read that camo netting only works if you remain stationary thou ?


Main thing i like about netting is the conversion options it will bring for my artilary tanks :)

AmBlam
19-03-2009, 15:14
5 pt guardsmen ? ooo 1 pt cheaper and rest of their gear costs the same...

1 pt cheaper to a cheap troops unit is a big difference. 1 Pt cheaper on a greater demon is nothing.


The days of mono armies are done in 40k. Chaos Marines, Demons, and Eldar all got the same treatment. I'm not surprised your all stormtrooper army is now moot

What about orks?


i never even thought of taking 9x girffons lol, that could be fun.

9x Basalisks for 1125pts with str 9 ap 3....

then full rest with guard platoons.

Sounds OP to me.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 15:18
hiding 9x bassies.. vs outflankers.. infiltraters.. long range guns will eat them alive fast most games.

evilsponge
19-03-2009, 15:22
What about orks?


What about them? I'm not saying that to be smart i just don't know much about them.

AfroCelt
19-03-2009, 15:27
orks can be fielded a massive variety of ways, but they did destroy the clan system. Overall I'm quite happy with the ork codex.

The IG will be ork killers, since they naturally bring lots of pie plates to the board. I don't really mind though...those lasguns haven't bothered orks for many a year.

I am scared of the hellhound squadron though...it'll be a tough choice between them and the bassies in back as first targets.

volair
19-03-2009, 15:37
Clearly the best units in the codex are merged infantry squads and vendetta squadrons with 3 twin-linked lascannons. You don't even have to give your guardsmen special weapons; you can spend the points that would be used for special weapons on another Vendetta squadron instead. So you will see armies with about 4 units of 30 or so naked guardsmen, and 3 squadrons of 2 vendettas comprising the bulk of the army. These armies have no customization at all; They consist of bare guardsmen and vendettas, lasguns and lascannons, many pew pew lasers. They will have a Necron like feel of having an army of clones.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 15:41
Vendetta can go up in 1 shot, or be unable to shoot.

A 10man unit in cover takes multi shots to knock out.. along with the order "take them Down"

i wouldnt pass up heavy weapons in infantry squads just yet, depends on the orders cost.

volair
19-03-2009, 15:44
Vendetta can go up in 1 shot, or be unable to shoot.

A 10man unit in cover takes multi shots to knock out.. along with the order "take them Down"

i wouldnt pass up heavy weapons in infantry squads just yet, depends on the orders cost.


So can a Monolith, or a Chaos Lord. There could be a game in which a Necron player fails on all ressurection rolls for the entire game. But we look at probability to assess how useful units are, and I assure you, 4-6 vendettas are likely to be able to deal with the enemy tanks better than any other option in the Imperial Guard codex. It seems silly to take heavy weapon teams or vanquishers. This is similar to how Obliterators trump the other heavy support options in the chaos codex (I'm not implying that Vendettas compete with tanks or heavy weapon teams for slots, just in effectiveness).

Da King
19-03-2009, 16:01
Does anyone think the LR Punisher will be worth it at the rumoured points cost? 200pts with x3 HB sounds kind of steep.

volair
19-03-2009, 16:08
Does anyone think the LR Punisher will be worth it at the rumoured points cost? 200pts with x3 HB sounds kind of steep.

At first I thought so, but I am starting to agree with the consensus that they are not. They are pretty good in Mathhammer, but others have pointed out that their range is a big flaw in a game in which a close combat unit or unit with meltaguns could blow them up fairly easily. And armor 14 is not as good on a 200 point tank as it is on a 170 point tank. At 200 points you can get a squadron of 2 valkyries, and two valkyries are possibly harder to destroy than a single leman russ. Skimmers being more or even equally resilient as leman russ tanks seems wrong to me.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 16:16
So can a Monolith, or a Chaos Lord. There could be a game in which a Necron player fails on all ressurection rolls for the entire game. But we look at probability to assess how useful units are, and I assure you, 4-6 vendettas are likely to be able to deal with the enemy tanks better than any other option in the Imperial Guard codex. It seems silly to take heavy weapon teams or vanquishers. This is similar to how Obliterators trump the other heavy support options in the chaos codex (I'm not implying that Vendettas compete with tanks or heavy weapon teams for slots, just in effectiveness).

Its alot easier to take care of armor 12 vs armor 14.

4 vendetta - 520 pts..
6 vendetta - 780 pts...

4x Heavy weapon team w/ 3x lascannon 420pts + 28 lasguns
6x heavy weapon team w/ 3x lascannon 630pts + 42 Lasguns

Infantry squads can have added on Plasma guns

Orders to twin link them vs tanks / MC

Wont die in 1 shot

Counts as scoring

Cheaper

Extra Lasgun shots vs close troops if needed.


Vendetta's
------------

Mobile
Possibly carry troops (makes them an even bigger target and takes them away from being primarily anti Tank)
Easier to kill.
Costs more
only 3 shots.



Both have their place, im leaning in favor of troops with heavy weapons thou.

(All Points according to Rumor thread)

Mojaco
19-03-2009, 16:27
Vendattas are also harder to kill, as any weapon can kill a guardsmen but only non-basic weapons can harm a AV12 tank.

Personally, I'm affraid of Vendettas becoming spammed. It's too heavy for a fast attack slot imo (it has more firepower then any vehicle ever!) with no drawbacks (AV12 is not pretty solid). And when I think of guard I don't think of groups of high-tech planes shooting me to bitz, but rather hordes of guardsmen.

I really, REALLY hope vendattas turn out to be less effective then they seem in the summary.

volair
19-03-2009, 16:27
Whether or not it is easier to kill vendettas is dependent on your opponent and the dice rolls, and therefor may be assessed quantitatively by statistics and qualitatively in the context of a metagame, which is a localized framework; You failed to do either. According to statistics and my particular metagame, Vendetta's are vastly superior to heavy weapon teams and vanquishers. I realise that my argument is not very convincing because I have not provided the necessary details of my calculations or opponents armies, but I am but one person of a larger community, so a poll would be much more effective as a first step to supporting my claims, at least initially.

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 16:34
Speaking of vendettas, did anyone else notice how good they are? They are basically going to become the de facto anti-tank of the imperial guard. Lascannon heavy teams won't exist anymore.

Nonsense. You can twin-link the lascannons in a heavy weapons team with an Order if you need to, they can fire through their own platoon without granting cover saves to the enemy so they are much more likely to benefit from cover themselves, and they don't take up a Fast Attack slot. Now the Vendetta does look better overall, but lascannon teams won't disappear, if only because they don't take up the better part of a small army case all to themselves.


[Hydras] I'm hoping for heavy 8, not heavy 4 Twin linked.

I heard it was Heavy 4 twin-linked.


5 pt guardsmen ? ooo 1 pt cheaper and rest of their gear costs the same...

Almost all of their equipment except for the plasma gun has gotten cheaper. And plasma can benefit from 'fire by rank'.


The main thing i dont get is 55Pt chimera's ? they are horrible transports once again..

add extra armor and the are 70 pts...

And why do you consider the extra armour mandatory? I would certainly never buy it.

Mojaco
19-03-2009, 16:37
Nonsense. You can twin-link the lascannons in a heavy weapons team with an Order if you need to, they can fire through their own platoon without granting cover saves to the enemy so they are much more likely to benefit from cover themselves, and they don't take up a Fast Attack slot. Now the Vendetta does look better overall, but lascannon teams won't disappear, if only because they don't take up the better part of a small army case all to themselves.
I agree. I think there's a lot of people who want all infantry armies, so we'll still see plenty of lascannon teams. It's just sad that they're likely outperformed by this fancy new toy.

Good point about the army case space requirement.

How cheap does chimera need to be to be considered 'not sucking'? 55 pts is a great deal.

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 16:41
I think 55 points including the multilaser and heavy bolter is fine. Before that would have set you back 85 points. You don't need any other upgrades to make it work, and none of them are worth it now anyway. Even stubbers are still pricey at 10 points.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 16:53
If i was using a chimera for an actual transport, i wouldnt even consider not giving it extra armor.. Its way to easy to stop from getting its unit to its proper location.

Expecially with side armor 10.

Sider armor 11 i would think differently.

Not getting to shoot is 1 thing.. not getting to move and shoot is far worse.

Non extra armor tank.. glancing hit just needs a 4+ to render it useless/temp useless.

Yea they are cheaper its not so bad, but there is no point imo at times over a Valk for squads such as stormtroopers
------
Extra armor being 15 pts itself is a big thing when putting it on heavy / fast attack tanks.

When i take my new hellhounds, i dunno if i would even consider taking it without extra armor. with it up close a crew stunned = dead tank vs alot of armies.

on battle tanks.. not much of a point to it.

-----
And yes, i definatly over looked the rapid fire order with plasma guns.. except the fact there is more of a chance of killing my own guy :P

but then again.. if they are within 12" if they dont die my guard squad most likely will be if they dont from those shots.

----

Back to the vendetta discussion..

Guard spam with Vendetta support is going to be nice.

Block fire lanes with muilti heavy weapon squad fire, then use vendetta's to flank.

Then (if possible) i hope to toss in small vet squads with multi plasma guns inside vendetta's.

Thing to not forget is.. If they have Alot of Vendetta's.. there is that many less pie plates out there.

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 17:14
Then (if possible) i hope to toss in small vet squads with multi plasma guns inside vendetta's.

It looks as though veteran squads always have to have 10 men.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 17:16
It looks as though veteran squads always have to have 10 men.

Hmm, that seems reasonable still, i can see 5man squads in those tanks with tri plasma a bit over the top.

and thinking about it.. with them in carapice armor.. They can be my new version of the old stormtroopers!.

borithan
19-03-2009, 18:14
Since the Stormtroopers are little more than Arbites with Hellguns, I doubt they are meant to be world beaters.There was time when basic Arbites were just as good, or even better, than a standard Space Marine.



To be fair, they've had allowances for ST armies in every IG list except the first 3rd ed book. 2nd ed, blackbook and the current book all can do ST armies or have provisions for them. Not so with Legions, Craftworlds, etc.I don't think you could in the standard 2nd ed list. Storm troopers were an "additional unit" choice, meaning you had to have one regimental choice for each of them. The only core regimental choices were the infantry squad and the heavy weapons squad.

They did do a later White Dwarf Stormtrooper army list though.



Now the Vendetta does look better overall, but lascannon teams won't disappear, if only because they don't take up the better part of a small army case all to themselves. I agree. Practical issues do play a part in army choices, as much as how effective things are. I am fairly sure the real reason that Rough Riders or Ogryns, for example, are not used that much is because they are pricey (moneywise) to field. Obviously if you have the models (had them for ages, or have enough money to buy pricey figures like that) then game effectiveness is going to be a major factor when choosing things. But for someone like m,yself, who doesn't have a great deal of money, the £60 price tag on a squad of 5 Orgyns or £30 for 5 Rough riders is a far bigger turn off than any problems with game effectiveness.

Now true, I don't like either of those models, so I don't care a bit, but I am sure there would be many more people buying Ogryns if they were £25 for 5 plastic ones, regardless of in game effectiveness.

3 Valkyries will cost £105. If the rumoured Nedetta conversion kit thing is true, there is some amount extra one top of that... I am not really scared of Vendetta spam taking over. Do I expect to see them? Yeah, but not becoming ubiquitous tank hunters.

Lame Duck
19-03-2009, 18:23
Can you take vet squads as troops with n restrictions whatsoever?

If so, then this codex is pretty much perfect.

evilsponge
19-03-2009, 18:26
Can you take vet squads as troops with n restrictions whatsoever?

If so, then this codex is pretty much perfect.

i wouldn't count on it (unless theres a special character that would unlock it)

borithan
19-03-2009, 18:38
The current rumour is that Veterans are now troops.

Mordian Marauder
19-03-2009, 18:46
What exactly is the Banewolf tank? Any photos of one?

Somerandomidiot
19-03-2009, 19:35
FYI, according to someone in the comments on BoLS who claims they've seen the codex firsthand, the Vendetta is actually a Heavy Support choice, rather than a Fast Attack Choice.

LordofWar1986
19-03-2009, 19:40
Re: All you want to say about guard but you cannot in the rumours forum.

All that I want to say is FOR THE EMPEROR!!!

That's all :D

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 19:41
Can you take vet squads as troops with n restrictions whatsoever?

It would appear so.


What exactly is the Banewolf tank? Any photos of one?

It's just a hellhound that fires a chemical spray rather than fire. Much shorter range, but it melts through power armour and wounds on a 2+.

volair
19-03-2009, 19:52
FYI, according to someone in the comments on BoLS who claims they've seen the codex firsthand, the Vendetta is actually a Heavy Support choice, rather than a Fast Attack Choice.

That is interesting, and probably a good thing for the health of the game. I don't know how fair it would have been to have lots of vendettas as well as leman russes.

LordofWar1986
19-03-2009, 19:54
As if there weren't already enough reasons against taking any leman russes, they make them compete with the best unit in the codex.

Well at least both can be taken as a squadron, if you really want to.

Sheena Easton
19-03-2009, 19:56
Nob bikers would still get a FnP save, but it certainly helps.

Only if they have a Painboy upgrade (which most will probably have anyway...)

blackseven
19-03-2009, 20:14
You know, *THIS* version of the IG Codex really establishes them as a proper threat.

The background loves to use IG as the basic fodder for other armies to slaughter, but I always remember that the IG must actually be pretty good to have successfully conquered/defended most Imperial territory.

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 20:15
Only if they have a Painboy upgrade (which most will probably have anyway...)

Judging from the Ork armies I've seen, I wouldn't have known for sure if not taking the painboy was even an option. :eyebrows:

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 20:45
hmm if Vedetta's do end up as heavies that will make tanks like the Exterminator worthless.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 20:48
hmm if Vedetta's do end up as heavies that will make tanks like the Exterminator worthless.

Why? They serve 2 different roles. The Exterminator is decent anti-light/medium tank and great anti-infantry, the Vendetta is a transport anti-heavy tank/MC unit.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 21:01
Well your options will become extremly limited if you take them.

Why take an exterminator for 170 ish points, when you can take a Eradicator for 180 pts and its big gun ignores cover ?


Tank squads are going to suck bad... bye bye tanks on a 6 to glance in a squad...

Lord Cook
19-03-2009, 21:05
Why take an exterminator for 170 ish points, when you can take a Eradicator for 180 pts and its big gun ignores cover ?

Because the exterminator will make a fine light vehicle hunter? Two completely different roles.


Tank squads are going to suck bad... bye bye tanks on a 6 to glance in a squad...

You weren't seriously expecting them to just give us 9 Heavy Support choices were you? After all the uproar they got from the Iron Warriors just having 4?

Colonial Rifle
19-03-2009, 21:17
I'm actually looking forward to this codex - it's about time the guard weren't the studio's whipping boy. The ability to compete with orks is sorely needed. My points of interest:

50 point squads - Not too bad if they get frag + Vet sergeant. 40 would have been better, but depends on how expensive the other upgrades are.

16pt storm troopers - I really wanted to field some, but this just looks *way* overpriced. I don't care if they have 4 A4 sides of special rules, a T3 4+SV figure shouldn't cost that much.

35pt Ogryns - seriously, WTF! Are they armed with las-cannons or something? Sorry, I'll just get moe guard if this is true.

Lumbering behemoth - Good.

Commissar at 35pt - this only works if he is already armed to the teeth with power weapons and refractor fields. Should be cheaper.

Looks like all the basics of a guard army will be better and GW has failed to fix the units we have always had problems with. It was always the price, stupid! This codex could turn out having a whole load of redundant unit entries....

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 21:18
Well your options will become extremly limited if you take them.

Why take an exterminator for 170 ish points, when you can take a Eradicator for 180 pts and its big gun ignores cover ? Different roles. The Exterminator is a fine light tank hunter that also can be a decent muppet mower. The Eradicator is an anti-infantry tank through and through. It's not going to hunt Skimmers.



Tank squads are going to suck bad... bye bye tanks on a 6 to glance in a squad...
Methinks people facing 6-7 leman russ tanks in 1500pt games may feel differently.

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 21:23
Light vehicle hunter's are a complete waste thou.. why put the fire from a 170 ish pt tank into an armor 12 vehicle ? its like shooting armor 14 with a lascannon.. not so easy.


Its much safer / easier to load up on anti tank / MC specific weapons. And take out those Light armor vehicles.

Then have role specific tanks for killing Swarms / infantry.

Imo somone who puts a Exterminator into a light tank just wasted a turn of shooting unless they are desperate, expecially with how tough tanks can be.


As for the squads, Sure they needed something to balance them, i hadnt really thought of cheesy dicks taking 9x Russes.

9x heavies with not a single drawback is bad of course, but this just shows once again poor game design bye them even giving Squads.

Move throu cover.. roll a 1.. Boom.... One hell of a pointy stick in there sarg.

The only thing im half way excited about is having a squad of 2 bassies... 1 heavy tank.. a vendetta or two.. Then mass Infantry.

Same effect as having 4 heavy slots..

3x chimera in front of 9 bassies... then bassies get cover saves of 3+ ?

how is that balanced ?

This is possibly IW screw up all over again..

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 21:26
I'm actually looking forward to this codex - it's about time the guard weren't the studio's whipping boy. The ability to compete with orks is sorely needed. My points of interest:

50 point squads - Not too bad if they get frag + Vet sergeant. 40 would have been better, but depends on how expensive the other upgrades are.

16pt storm troopers - I really wanted to field some, but this just looks *way* overpriced. I don't care if they have 4 A4 sides of special rules, a T3 4+SV figure shouldn't cost that much.

35pt Ogryns - seriously, WTF! Are they armed with las-cannons or something? Sorry, I'll just get moe guard if this is true.

Lumbering behemoth - Good.

Commissar at 35pt - this only works if he is already armed to the teeth with power weapons and refractor fields. Should be cheaper.

Looks like all the basics of a guard army will be better and GW has failed to fix the units we have always had problems with. It was always the price, stupid! This codex could turn out having a whole load of redundant unit entries....


If Lumbering Behomoth ends up being move 6 and shoot 1 extra weapon.. There is no way i will pay for Sponsons.. I try to keep my tanks moving solid.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 21:30
Light vehicle hunter's are a complete waste thou.. why put the fire from a 170 ish pt tank into an armor 12 vehicle ? its like shooting armor 14 with a lascannon.. not so easy. Except a lascannon gets one shot at BS3 and isn't that great against Infantry. The Exterminator gets 4 twin linked shots, making it *six* times as effective against AV12 targets as a single BS3 lascannon is against AV14, and can still pack in enough firepower to be a very solid muppet mowing anti-infantry tank. 3 HB's, a 4shot autocannon, and a stubber gives it 16 shots against infantry. It's a very competent, and relatively cheap, multi-purpose tank.



As for the squads, Sure they needed something to balance them, i hadnt really thought of cheesy dicks taking 9x Russes. Well, for the most part, you won't have points for 9 Russ tanks, especially not any of the kitted out expensive ones even at 2000pts.


There is no way i will pay for Sponsons.. I try to keep my tanks moving solid. And have them become entirely useless after one weapon destroyed result? I'd prefer the extra firepower. I'll take my 9 HB shots when stationary if my battlecannon is killed. the tanks don't need to be moving all the time, only if a threat is close or they need LoS.

djinn8
19-03-2009, 21:30
Is it just me or is anyone else looking forward to sticking Priests in Penal squads and finaly having a unit that can assault with a degree of confidence?

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 21:37
Except a lascannon gets one shot at BS3 and isn't that great against Infantry. The Exterminator gets 4 twin linked shots, making it *six* times as effective against AV12 targets as a single BS3 lascannon is against AV14, and can still pack in enough firepower to be a very solid muppet mowing anti-infantry tank. 3 HB's, a 4shot autocannon, and a stubber gives it 16 shots against infantry. It's a very competent, and relatively cheap, multi-purpose tank.

Well, for the most part, you won't have points for 9 Russ tanks, especially not any of the kitted out expensive ones even at 2000pts.

And have them become entirely useless after one weapon destroyed result? I'd prefer the extra firepower. I'll take my 9 HB shots when stationary if my battlecannon is killed. the tanks don't need to be moving all the time, only if a threat is close or they need LoS.

I dunno, 20 pts for sponsons ? that adds up.. If free points sure why not, but i wont go out of my way to add them (yay for magnetized sponsons)

With orders thou.. its not just 1 BS 3 Lascannons.. it can be twin linked..

str 9 vs armor 12 ? much better chances to me.


As for the exterminator.. Maybe it will be worth it.. but i dunno, to many other options over it..

I have one setting on my table atm with a modded 4 barrol autocannon in the works. So im kinda hoping its worth using now and then.

Lame Duck
19-03-2009, 21:42
Is it just me or is anyone else looking forward to sticking Priests in Penal squads and finaly having a unit that can assault with a degree of confidence?

Mounted priests *crosses fingers*.

Rough Riders OF DEATH

SPYDER68
19-03-2009, 21:43
Rough Riders is one unit i cant wait to see the rules on, built a squad on cold ones a couple months ago to just use 1 weekend at a tourney.

Kurisu313
19-03-2009, 22:23
Does anyone know what options the chimera will have for it's turret?

I want to go out and get some chimeras, and was wondering if converting a few autocannon turrets would be a good idea?

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 22:25
Does anyone know what options the chimera will have for it's turret?

I want to go out and get some chimeras, and was wondering if converting a few autocannon turrets would be a good idea?

The Autocannon will sadly remain only an Imperial Armor option. all options remain the same as they are now.

Kurisu313
19-03-2009, 22:47
The Autocannon will sadly remain only an Imperial Armor option. all options remain the same as they are now.

Dangnabbit!

Well, thanks for the info. When you consider how useful they'll be at 55 points, I'm gonna have to get at least three more I think!