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Malorian
18-03-2009, 21:42
EDIT: Updated list in post 14!!!

stonetroll
19-03-2009, 01:32
I am admittedly not a great dwarf player, but from what I can see, you are a bit heavy on infantry and a bit light on the artillery. Do you think you will have room to deploy all 40 missile troops AND your 3 combat squads ina line that makes sense?

A few changes I would do is swap lord to a runesmith with anvil (Thorek if SCs are allowed), drop your hammerer unit and one thunderer unit to get in another canon and/or a pair of bolt throwers.

The thing that I see Dwarfs struggling with in tournies though, is pressing their advantage into a win. Example: you shoot my chaos knight unit to bits, with only one model left. I can safely mve that model into a wood (out LOS) to deny you half the pints value of that unit, because there is no way you will ever catch that single model hiding.

Your castle is very effective in drawing battles or getting minor victories, but it wont allow you to press your advantage into a major win/massacre from what I can see.

Let me know how it went though!

fishound7
19-03-2009, 10:47
I'd try and fit rune of forging on cannon. Cut points from something.... dunno what. Maybe one rune of cleaving from lord and one warrior from each block. I dunno it seems like it would be useful. But i know your in a points squeeze.

Otherwise I like the list. Its very similar to what i'm using

sergio
19-03-2009, 13:04
4 units that can only move or shoot will get cumbersome unless you're playing with a ton of hills

a good tactic would be to use them as screens for your blocks of troops.. but the problem is that is that you're going to panic your own units. it might not be bad to upgrade a unit of warriors to longbeards who not only will be immune, but can quell the failed panic tests of anyone near by.

lord karnik
19-03-2009, 14:11
great point sergio screening shooters need to be infront of the LB so they do not panic. I know LD 9 is nice by why take the chance right!

Malorian
19-03-2009, 14:23
I know people like the rune of forging but it just doesn't seem worth it to me... I don't know... I don't have a ton of experience with cannons (this is my only army that has one) but it seems increasing the cost by 39% isn't worth trying to counter a 1/6 unlikely event.

Is it really worth it?


I've thought about putting the missile troops in front, and have had a LOT of trouble trying to find a good formation to use when there isn't a hill. It just bothers me that these units are good as dead when they aren't exactly throw away units.

With Ld10 I'm not that worried about panic though ;) Although knowing my luck...

sergio
19-03-2009, 14:34
giving your missle troops shields is always good too. WS4, T4, 4+ save in combat is nothing to sneeze at.

also, your BT's should always have an engineer. BS4 to hit better and a 4th extra crew member to keep them alive a bit longer.

blackjack
19-03-2009, 14:35
Lists like this make me seriously question the usfullness of my Teradons. Knowing that my expensive kittens barely have a 50/50 chance against one of your gun crews makes me want to cry.....

grumbaki
19-03-2009, 14:41
For that many missile troops, here is a tactic:

Put them in front of your infantry units, preferably with longbeards nearby. They fire at the enemy until the enemy charges. Then the missile troops flee through your blocks and come out safely on the other side. With longbeards around there should not be any panic. Then engaged the enemy while the shooting units rally.

Malorian
19-03-2009, 15:02
But what if my opponent uses that formation against me and picks on one flank? Now my other blocks (and lord) can't support because they are trapped behind the missile troops :(

TonyFlow
19-03-2009, 16:12
if you need to manouvre or advance, you can reform the missile units into 2x5 so you can get through them. But 4 units does seem a little much.
As already said, you really should put engineers on your BT's better BS and if your opponent has a warmachine hunting character, you can let the engineer challenge and pass your stubborn breaktest for support to arrive.
The rune or forging is really worth it, not only will it prevent the cannon from blowing up you will also avoid those annoying shots where you guess spot on only to see the cannonball to get stuck in the ground when you roll misfire on the bounce.
Also, do consider the Longbeards, maybe decrease the size of your warriors to 20 to get the points for long beards, engineers and rune of forging (i didn calculate if it is enough).
Lastly i would put a rune of stone on your lord for that nice 1+ save.

Good luck!

Malorian
19-03-2009, 16:19
Well if I drop the master rune of challenge and the rune of resistance that would give me the points to add the rune of forging and give the str 7 BT an engineer.

But the lord already has a 1+ save thanks to the shield.


Is four units off missile troops too much? I could drop one unit to free up points but trading them for upgrades doesn't seem like a fair trade...

lcfr
19-03-2009, 18:00
Dwarf lord w/ shield bearers, shield, rune of smiting, 2X rune of cleaving
BSB thane w/ rune of stone, rune of challenge
Thane w/ rune of resistance, rune of stone, great weapon

I think you should try and find the points to give your BSB the MRGromril. Personally I think you need a Runesmith w/MRBalance at this points level instead of a second thane, but that's just me. PS. is Smithing multiple wounds? If so I think you'll do better with additional attacks since it's such an expensive and situational rune.

24 warriors w/ banner, musician, shields
24 warriors w/ banner, musician, shields

10 quarrellers
10 quarrellers
10 thunderers
10 thunderers

Shields! Plus I think you're nuts for having so many missile troops....god love 'em, but I have such a hard time deploying so many units (mostly because I'm an idiot).

19 hammerers w/ full command, shield w/ rune of grungni
bolt thrower
bolt thrower w/ rune of penetrating
cannon w/ rune of burning

You'll live w/out the RForging. Those BTs could use engineers though; I think a better combo for them would be to give one or both the RBurning (obviously w/an additional cheap rune to keep it legal) and avoid the RPen, since the cannon makes a great chariot popper as it is.

Thoughts?

I think you should just straight up drop a unit of quarrelers to free up the points you'll need to round out some of your choices and maximize the potential of your units. The list is great overall, I just thought I'd point out what could use a tweak and how to make things better. Goood luck!

Malorian
19-03-2009, 18:35
EDIT: New list on post 19!!!


I took out the quarellers, added the engineers and runes, dropped the BSB for points, and added a grudge thrower and dragon slayer (cheap throw away unit/warmachine guard).

What do you think now?


lcfn, smiting is D6 wounds and trust me it's amazing. If people try bogging down my lord with a champ they are basically just handing me +6CR, and if I'm against anything with multiple wounds... hehe ;)

Cortomaltese
19-03-2009, 23:39
oki,my turn to try to give some hints, without changing to much this list: it's nice!

first of all, dwarf Lords are really easy to avoid during matches, so sometimes u'll never see him get into combat.. He's a must for me (Ld, make hammerers deadly good, sometimes get wounds and save them instead of the troops), but i often prefer him to be a tank, better then a wounds-dealer.
that's my point of view, just consider if 110 pts in rune-weapons can be worthy (u'll barely always strike last: during charge, and often later agains large part of enemy fighting heroes.. so he can be dead before making damage..) if yes, this is one of the best layout u could find: grats!

i'm neither a great fan of rune of resistence in general: To5 is great enough already, and St6 is a sort of low difference: hero's and monsters gw will wound you at 4+ or better anyway, the difference can be between St5 and 6, i see.. but it can depends from opponent to opponent.. do u plan to field the thane alone, and u needed that better protection from enemy fire!? maybe u can find here points for upgrade him to a Bsb, i always like him with my dwarves! (again: my view! don't want to convince you :P)

i'll try to put the shield on the runesmith too:it can give some further protection (2+ armour save against shoot, and 1+ in hth when using hw.. nice for a "spellcaster" :D) if i'm not wrong, u're low for 4-5 points.. shield is just 2: lovely!

nice warrior spot, don't u need the champion for challenges?!
moreover u can consider to upgrade 1 unit of warriors to longbeards (dropping their number by 2 and the slayer), cause i really like their role against panic, and their better stats both in defence and offence.
dragon slayer is really more a useless thing that'll be killed from shooting or magic or during charge with ease.. at least if u could get 10 Vpoints when he dies (something like on the karak kadrin list..)

i like your shooters (i usually put musician in mine, but for the tactic posted before by Grumbaki, or because i often flee from opponent barely in range, using thunderers as baiters.. if u're not gonna use them in that way, u can save points there), and warmachines too except, maybe, for the grudge thrower..
dunno if it can be so useful (it's a bit less precise then the cannon for me, 'cause it has to hit on 4+ partial models.. and i don't like it's rune so much compared from forging and other cannon aids.. ) but don't want to make further suggestions, since it's your style of playing and not mine ;)

sergio
20-03-2009, 01:24
a few more things:

-shieldbearers, and the rune of stone on gromil armor already gives your lord a 1+ save. the shield is unnecessary for the most part. this frees up both his hands for a great weapon, which is still a good choice despite the current "is he mounted for +1S, or not mounted and gets +2S". BUT, if you know you're going to be facing lots of forest spirits and other things that require a magic item, then runes of fire and +1S are key.

-never ever leave the BSB at home unless you're taking an all gunline. he's key. he's also going to give your block of warriors an extra point of static CR. (BSB + standard + 3 ranks + outnumber) which can give you the extra edge in combat against those ridiculously large units of night goblins/skaven/

-at least one rune of burning on a bolt thrower is going to be essential in a tournament dwarf list, at least to make it a magical attack (ignoring forest spirit saves, flaming to take out treemen/hydras/trolls, etc). a rune of penetrating can help to take out the occassional chariot, or give you that slight edge to wound against stegs/treemen/dragons

Volker the Mad Fiddler
20-03-2009, 04:22
a few more things:
SNIP

-never ever leave the BSB at home unless you're taking an all gunline. he's key. he's also going to give your block of warriors an extra point of static CR. (BSB + standard + 3 ranks + outnumber) which can give you the extra edge in combat against those ridiculously large units of night goblins/skaven/

-at least one rune of burning on a bolt thrower is going to be essential in a tournament dwarf list, at least to make it a magical attack (ignoring forest spirit saves, flaming to take out treemen/hydras/trolls, etc). a rune of penetrating can help to take out the occassional chariot, or give you that slight edge to wound against stegs/treemen/dragons

I agree about the BSB especially [though I find the re-roll to be his most important aspect]- sticking units in combat and flanking them is the dwarf way.

I also agree with the bolt thrower and am very happy to see my favorite warmachine [a goblobber] with the rune of accuracy now in the list.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
20-03-2009, 12:29
I think 24 is a little large for a dwarf unit seeing as they dont die. I would reduce the units to 20 and try (somehow) to fit in a unit of ironbreakers 20 strong. I think you could drop the non strength seven bolt thrower. GIve the one you keep a champion it will be perfect for sniping chariots (KABOOM!) I suppose you could drop one of the missile units to add some points for ironbreakers or something. Slayers are a good time to. Very fun to ritually sacrific as a speed bump :P
Good luck. I miss building dwarf lords! I would just give him a great weapon and the rune of a great weapon and increase his strength by one, then give him an extra attack. On shield bearers he has a 2+ save then give him a reroll, a 4+ ward save and you're laughing!
Have fun :D

Malorian
20-03-2009, 13:53
Thanks for all the replies everyone :)

-Longbeards: You guys are really pushing these guys... but I don't see panic being much of a problem. I should be taking losses that easily and thus taking few panic tests, and when I do I'm Ld 10. The stats are nice but I don't know... I'll try putting it in and see how it looks just because you're pushing it so much ;)

-BSB: I love the BSB too, but I had to find a place to cut points to get in the runesmith. So which should I take? The BSB or the rune smith? Or do I drop the combat thane?

Give me a second to make a few changes and I'll get the list back up. Thanks again for all the replies.

Edit: Here we go:

Dwarf lord w/ shield bearers, shield, rune of smiting, 2X rune of cleaving
BSB Thane w/ master rune of gromil, rune of cleaving
Runesmith w/ rune of balance, great weapon, rune of stone, shield

23 longbeards w/ banner, musician, shields
24 warriors w/ banner, musician, shields

10 thunderers w/ shields
10 thunderers w/ shields

19 hammerers w/ full command, shield
2 bolt throwers w/ engineers
grudge thrower w/ rune of accuracy
cannon w/ rune of burning, rune of forging

organ gun
organ gun

Total: 2248


With this new setup I can stick to one side and have the longbeards in the middle and the hammerers being the uiit closer to the center of the board (try and avoid my lord now! ;) ). So have we got it pinned down? :)

lcfr
20-03-2009, 14:59
Thanks for all the replies everyone :)

-Longbeards: You guys are really pushing these guys... but I don't see panic being much of a problem. I should be taking losses that easily and thus taking few panic tests, and when I do I'm Ld 10. The stats are nice but I don't know... I'll try putting it in and see how it looks just because you're pushing it so much ;)

-BSB: I love the BSB too, but I had to find a place to cut points to get in the runesmith. So which should I take? The BSB or the rune smith? Or do I drop the combat thane?

Give me a second to make a few changes and I'll get the list back up. Thanks again for all the replies.

Edit: Here we go:

Dwarf lord w/ shield bearers, shield, rune of smiting, 2X rune of cleaving
BSB Thane w/ master rune of gromil, rune of cleaving
Runesmith w/ rune of balance, great weapon, rune of stone, shield

23 longbeards w/ banner, musician, shields
24 warriors w/ banner, musician, shields

10 thunderers w/ shields
10 thunderers w/ shields

19 hammerers w/ full command, shield
2 bolt throwers w/ engineers
grudge thrower w/ rune of accuracy
cannon w/ rune of burning, rune of forging

organ gun
organ gun

Total: 2248


With this new setup I can stick to one side and have the longbeards in the middle and the hammerers being the uiit closer to the center of the board (try and avoid my lord now! ;) ). So have we got it pinned down? :)

If your lord has the MRChallenge that'll help w/the whole avoidance problem, at least against armies that aren't ITP. I don't think this list needs any fundamental changes (it never did, really), you'll just be hearing dwarf players like me basically telling you what their 2250pts list looks like and how yours can look more like it :D.

Test drive it w/and w/out the longbeards (what can you buy if you drop those longbeards? Transmogrify 2x 10 thunderers into 3x 10 quarrelers?), see how it works. Results probably won't differ dramatically.

Cortomaltese
20-03-2009, 19:41
the new setup is the best u can have for that sort of list! let us know how matches are going! brake your legs!

Malorian
20-03-2009, 19:43
Good to hear.

Thanks everyone :)

Kirth
21-03-2009, 06:52
I hope your dwarfs buck and rumble their way to victory.

As a side note, no anvil and no gyro means you'll need to do your killin' up close and rely less on shooting; to me this justifies Longbeards. As the anvil can slow enemies and the gyro can march block, you lose time to shoot, so I would suggest dropping the Grudgethrower for something else. Maybe a naked Dragon Slayer for some harass and use the remaining points on whatever you like.

I'm a big fan of Dragon Slayers with no upgrades. They may be squishy, but they can provide a little extra CR or just act like a speedbump. They hold up RnF core troops pretty well(Edit: pretty well for the points cost) with high WS and T.