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View Full Version : tips for lizardmen VS ogres



Eulogy2
19-03-2009, 02:42
I'm just getting back into warhammer from a long absence. Ive collected a large army, and have access to anything in the list. i was hoping for some pointers against ogre kingdoms, which will be my main opponent. i posted the list i made in the army list forum. thanks in advance.

EvC
19-03-2009, 03:18
You really shouldn't need any help, Lizardmen are far better than Ogres in the current environment. Just be careful of Ogre characters, who usually have excellent magic weapons to take down Stegadons.

Conotor
19-03-2009, 03:19
An old blood with Parana Blade on a carnosaur.

Genrazn
19-03-2009, 04:38
Heh Pirhana blade. You would be far better off with Blade Of realities and watch those ogres die one after another due to failed LD tests :P

Spirit
19-03-2009, 11:26
SKINKS!

Tonnes and tonnes of the little blighters firing billions and billions of poisoned darts over and over.

There is nothing an ogre army can do to combat 100 blowpipe shots a turn, and thats only 350 points.

Urgat
19-03-2009, 11:29
SKINKS!

Tonnes and tonnes of the little blighters firing billions and billions of poisoned darts over and over.

There is nothing an ogre army can do to combat 100 blowpipe shots a turn, and thats only 350 points.

Especially after the first battle, because it's going to be the last one too.

Neknoh
19-03-2009, 12:33
Blade of realities, just remember to resolve each hit individually (at least that's how I see it, 3 hits = 3 Ld tests, each failed test kills an ogre), this should let you swipe whole Ogre units at a time, especially with the carnosaur at your side.

EvC
19-03-2009, 14:06
If you've got the Carnosaur, you don't really need Blade of Realities...

Genrazn
19-03-2009, 19:58
OF coarse you need the blade of realities. It just makes Ogres weep and pit of shame as tere precious ogres get killed right one after another :P

Or just when you need to kill every last one of them ogres heh

Spirit
19-03-2009, 20:00
OF coarse you need the blade of realities. It just makes Ogres weep and pit of shame as tere precious ogres get killed right one after another :P

Or just when you need to kill every last one of them ogres heh

Nah evc is right, 4-5 attacks with S7 that all do d3 wounds is crazy good against ogres. The oldblood would be better suited with a cheaper weapon and some more protection. Considering ogres arent likely to have ranks to beat you with, the carnosaur alone will win combats.

Neknoh
19-03-2009, 23:53
Do keep in mind that the Carnosaur has to roll a 3 to slay an ogre outright, there is a discussion on the wound distribution at the moment, but in essence, he might not kill as many ogres as one might think. Which is where the Blade of Realities comes into play.

Why kill two ogres and let one strike back when you can wipe the unit and overrun into anotherone?

Spirit
20-03-2009, 01:13
Do keep in mind that the Carnosaur has to roll a 3 to slay an ogre outright, there is a discussion on the wound distribution at the moment, but in essence, he might not kill as many ogres as one might think. Which is where the Blade of Realities comes into play.

Why kill two ogres and let one strike back when you can wipe the unit and overrun into anotherone?

Theres no discussion, a model that does d3 wounds rolls a d3 per wound and removes that many wounds worth of whole models. The argument is around things that do more than the base wounds. d3 can only do 3 max, so it follows the rules in the book, resolve each hit seperatly, then remove that many whole models.

A carnosaur and an oldblood with 11 attacks between them will kill enough ogres.

Bac5665
20-03-2009, 01:26
Dude, LM will wipe OK off the map as it is. The Blade of realities is overkill.

Why not just wipe the unit out you ask? Human decency. The game's already over before it starts; there's no need to rub salt in the wound as well.

rocdocta
20-03-2009, 04:32
dont forget that there are some tricks that OK can play. ie giving a unit regen. or the breaking bones spell. Throwing some gnoblars at it to give it frenzy and then placing bait units to drag it away into a forest is also nice.

i scored a win the other day vs a good Liz player using my OK by doing just that. Tyrant with thundermace and a bruiser with the tenderizer is a great combo in a unit of 3 iron guts.

dont forget lead belchers. the only negatives to shooting are stand and shoot and skirmiser. vs a carnosaur they hit on 4s, armour piercing, arty dice of shots each. not to be taken lightly.

Mercules
20-03-2009, 06:35
Ogres need a new book, much like several other 6th Ed. books. Till then Lizard Men chomp them. 6th Ed. Lizardmen were rough with Ogres what with the fast moving Skirmishing Skinks with Poison attacks so they can wound Ogres. Only thing I could do was throw Gnoblars at his Skinks and remind myself that while I am loosing 2-4 points per model he was loosing 6-7 points.

Kroxigor were more than a match for Ogres and could hide behind annoying shooting Skinks until the time was right. Stegadons were just brutal and I couldn't catch the flying Skink Priest.

Looking at the new book, I have whole new nightmares to contend with... :) Take whatever you want to the fight, any balanced LM army with a decent general should be good against whatever OK can field unless the OK general is MUCH more skilled.

EvC
20-03-2009, 12:08
Do keep in mind that the Carnosaur has to roll a 3 to slay an ogre outright, there is a discussion on the wound distribution at the moment, but in essence, he might not kill as many ogres as one might think. Which is where the Blade of Realities comes into play.

Why kill two ogres and let one strike back when you can wipe the unit and overrun into anotherone?

I love this kind of tunnel vision. The Carnosaur might not kill that many Ogres by itself... but the Blade of Realities? Well, that will kill every Ogre, every single time it hits, going by the way you and others talk! No, they still need to take a leadership test. If this is a unit of Bulls or Leadbelchers we are talking about, they will almost certainly flee the charge, so Realities isn't so great. Ironguts might hold, but they have LD8, so on average they may fail one leadership test, and if not then you have the basic S5 attacks to fall back on. 75 points to do that, big whoop! A Sword of Might or even a Piranha Blade will probably end up doing just as much damage.

That's not to say the BoR aint great, but it's not needed vs Ogres.

Spirit
20-03-2009, 13:21
dont forget that there are some tricks that OK can play. ie giving a unit regen. or the breaking bones spell. Throwing some gnoblars at it to give it frenzy and then placing bait units to drag it away into a forest is also nice.

i scored a win the other day vs a good Liz player using my OK by doing just that. Tyrant with thundermace and a bruiser with the tenderizer is a great combo in a unit of 3 iron guts.

dont forget lead belchers. the only negatives to shooting are stand and shoot and skirmiser. vs a carnosaur they hit on 4s, armour piercing, arty dice of shots each. not to be taken lightly.

Well how do you propose you throw a M4 (5?) unit at a non frenzired M7 unit? The carnold will not charge anything in an ogre army that it does not want to.

This leads to the second point, i wont charge my carnosaur into an ogre unit with 2 characters clearly designed to kill me, i will poison the characters with skinks. Then i will block the line of sight from them using skinks, so frenzy wont be an option either.

Lastly, the carnold is not a large target, so he will be screened from your leadbelchers by 10 skirmishing skinks, once the leadbelchers waste their shot, they are dead.

Ogres cant do anything against lizards unless lizards make a mistake.

Mercules
20-03-2009, 14:37
Ogres cant do anything against lizards unless lizards make a mistake.

Well, we can... it is just an uphill battle.

The Carnosaur is a great tool against Ogres, there is no two ways around it. The ability to screen him until he can pounce is fantastic, his special rules cause him to tear Ogres to shreds. On top of that you have an Oldblood mounted on him who is bad enough on his own.

I'd probably have to sacrifice a whole unit of Bulls or Ironguts to him before I could do much of anything against him, and that would be after having to deal with annoying poison from the skinks, being marchblocked by Terradons, and keeping the rest of the army from helping him out. Ok... VERY uphill battle.

Wolf 11x
20-03-2009, 14:51
I play against / with the same OK player almost all the time. My Lizards beat him most games. His army is completely fine in team games and he wins a lot. However, one on ones almost seem impossible. It's sad to have an army that is happy to get close to a draw every game. He's considering starting a balanced DE or Empire list because he desperately wants to play a melee army with infantry.

EvC
20-03-2009, 16:01
I did actually use my Lizardmen against Ogres the other day, and it was pretty tight for a while, but eventually the Ogres just couldn't stand up in the war of attrition. My opponent got lucky in killing the Engine of the Gods too- he had a Hunter shoot two wounds off with his Harpoon Launcher, then charge in and deal two more wounds (doubled to four = dead, and priest auto-broken), all at S5. But the Tyrant couldn't stand up to my Oldblood on Cold One, Bulls in the flank of a long line of Saurus got beaten back... a few close moments, but not really in the same league.

But then he did have a Hunter ;)

Urgat
20-03-2009, 16:43
I still can't get why carnosaurs are not large targets, btw.
And yeah, I have no ******* idea how I would face lizards with my ogres. To be honest, I'm at a loss whenever I field them anyway, lizzies or not...

Neknoh
20-03-2009, 16:43
Ah, but that is what you have the carnosaur for. I am not assuming the Blade will kill every ogre in base to base contact, nowhere did I say that a foot-oldblood could use the blade to walk all over the ogres.

Instead, a multiple-wound-causing Carnosaur TOGETHER with the Blade of Realities will likely walk all over anything they charge. 3-4 hits means 3-4 leadership tests, say they fail one, that's one ogre down, and around 2 wounds on the unit. The Carnosaur now chows down on the weakened unit as well, and suddenly, that one poofed ogre allong with the one or two wounds put down in addition to that will have a much greater effect.

Malorian
20-03-2009, 16:52
I haven't played with my ogres for a while, but when I do face the new lizardmen it's not the oldblood carnosaur I fear, it's the spear saurus...

N810
20-03-2009, 17:09
I imagine a couple units of spear saurus flanked by razordons would be a real pain for ogres too.
not to mention our SC Gor-Rok (spelling?)

Jormi_Boced
20-03-2009, 17:29
I still can't get why carnosaurs are not large targets, btw.



Because they sucked when they were and GW wanted ot sell the model.

Mercules
20-03-2009, 17:36
I did actually use my Lizardmen against Ogres the other day, and it was pretty tight for a while, but eventually the Ogres just couldn't stand up in the war of attrition. My opponent got lucky in killing the Engine of the Gods too- he had a Hunter shoot two wounds off with his Harpoon Launcher, then charge in and deal two more wounds (doubled to four = dead, and priest auto-broken), all at S5. But the Tyrant couldn't stand up to my Oldblood on Cold One, Bulls in the flank of a long line of Saurus got beaten back... a few close moments, but not really in the same league.

But then he did have a Hunter ;)

Hunters are weird... Expensive as heck and performs two roles that are in opposition. This makes him almost versatile except he doesn't do very well in either. Shooting he hits about as often as the 35 point Spear Chukka with lower strength and shorter range. He can't team up with other Ogres so he really fumbles about with CC unless he has Sabretusks for backup or is taking on targets without much Static CR. If he has the Sabretusks he is an even higher point cost so you want him in CC which wastes his shooting.

Neknoh
20-03-2009, 17:45
One hunter? Yes.

I did hear about one of THE most wicked uses of hunters out there though, it showed up at a 2250 point tourney with quite a bit of comp.

Three hunters, all barelling down a flank, setting up and harpooning away. And if you got close, you got SIX Sabretusks in your face, meaning they'd eat essentially anything except for heavy cav, which the hunters just pew-pewed down with ease.

I'd say that THAT is a mean way to use them hunters.

Malorian
20-03-2009, 17:48
Hmmm interesting although expensive way to lock down a flank.

Never thought of the synergy of being able to multicharge several sabretusk units...

Mercules
20-03-2009, 17:49
I imagine a couple units of spear saurus flanked by razordons would be a real pain for ogres too.
not to mention our SC Gor-Rok (spelling?)

Bah... the plain old Scar-Vet with a Piranha Blade would be a pain to deal with. I would basically have to send a character after him as normal Ogres would be in trouble.

Another pain would be a Skink Chief on a Terradon with the Staff of the Lost Sun. x3 S5 shots at 18" range would mean I would have to run characters inside units or get them sniped. Almost as bad would be one armed with a Blowpipe, Venom of the Firefly Frog and give him the Shield of the Mirrored Pool to reflect my MM spells which would leave me lacking in ways to deal with him. I'd have to bring some Brace of Handgun toting Maneaters or Characters to kill him.

I hope I am not giving LM players too many ways to effectively cripple me, then again it never was that hard with LM. :)

Malorian
20-03-2009, 17:51
Another pain would be a Skink Chief on a Terradon with the Staff of the Lost Sun. x3 S5 shots at 18" range would mean I would have to run characters inside units or get them sniped. Almost as bad would be one armed with a Blowpipe, Venom of the Firefly Frog and give him the Shield of the Mirrored Pool to reflect my MM spells which would leave me lacking in ways to deal with him. I'd have to bring some Brace of Handgun toting Maneaters or Characters to kill him.

It's times like this that leadbelchers actually become very useful :D

Mercules
20-03-2009, 17:54
One hunter? Yes.

I did hear about one of THE most wicked uses of hunters out there though, it showed up at a 2250 point tourney with quite a bit of comp.

Three hunters, all barelling down a flank, setting up and harpooning away. And if you got close, you got SIX Sabretusks in your face, meaning they'd eat essentially anything except for heavy cav, which the hunters just pew-pewed down with ease.

I'd say that THAT is a mean way to use them hunters.

Bah... Need a bunch of Gnoblar Trappers too. The Entourage rule catches everyone off guard. Now you have 16 S2 shots per Trapper unit that basically hit on a 5+. Doesn't seem to do much, but it usually sneaks a wound or two through, and on top of the Hunters/Sabretusks it adds up. Besides you can redirect charges with them or Stand and Shoot when your Hunters are charged, or just take one for the team. With Ld 9 they stick around a bit longer.

Mercules
20-03-2009, 17:56
It's times like this that leadbelchers actually become very useful :D

If they ever hit the dang thing... yes. :) Doesn't it still get the Skirmisher rule? I'll kill my Leadbelchers before I ever kill it. :) I have the worst luck with them.

Malorian
20-03-2009, 18:13
Nope, they are flying cav now just like peg knights (US2). So no more -1 to shoot.

You might have trouble hitting, but you can feel safe that whatever hits is going to do a lot of damage :D

Conotor
20-03-2009, 23:04
there is nothing an ogre army can do to combat 100 blowpipe shots a turn, and thats only 350 points.

mass knoblars ftw!!!!

Whitesox
20-03-2009, 23:54
Turn up



As long as you pick a competitive list, are not unlucky and your opponent isnt a multiple best general at regional tournies you should be ok

OK will struggle against the LM, dont go ultra competitive and pick a nice balanced list and you will probably still win but it will be more fun

Master Stark
21-03-2009, 14:24
That's not to say the BoR aint great, but it's not needed vs Ogres.

I find that it is. A canny Ogre player will try very hard to make sure you end up fighting against one of his characters at some point. If he manages to kill the Carnosaur, all of a sudden your US1 Oldblood is outnumbered by a fear causing enemy.

It's not as ridiculous as it sounds when you are facing off against a S8 character doing D3 (or is it D6?) wounds, especially if a Hunter has dropped a wound or two off the Carnosaur with his crossbow.

If you are running an Oldblood on a Carnosaur against Ogres, the Blade of Realities is a solid investment.

Urgat
21-03-2009, 14:35
I haven't played with my ogres for a while, but when I do face the new lizardmen it's not the oldblood carnosaur I fear, it's the spear saurus...

Tell me what you wouldn't fear in a LM army, that'd be faster, no?




Three hunters, all barelling down a flank, setting up and harpooning away. And if you got close, you got SIX Sabretusks in your face, meaning they'd eat essentially anything except for heavy cav, which the hunters just pew-pewed down with ease.

I'd say that THAT is a mean way to use them hunters.

No magic defense at all?

Neknoh
21-03-2009, 14:46
Not as far as I am aware, the story does not tell. But really, with the comp at that tournament, 6 levels of magic is VERY magic heavy (you can have more, but it takes a heavy, heavy comp toll), as such, no magic defense for an army made up of around 12 wounds per unit is actually quite a lot, at least considering the efficiency of the unit doesn't drop for each wound.

I think he also fielded two units of two Brace of Handgun Maneaters for his rares, all I know is the guy who attended the tournament and saw the army told me it actually did rather well, and it was a big tournament at that.

Genrazn
21-03-2009, 22:03
Lizardmen can take 2 things to make a Ogres poo in there pants. Scar Vet with Pirhana Blade... and Blade of Realities with a carnosaur. Then just a priest to dispel stuff and your good to go with a spear wall of death maybe some cheap 50 point screens heh