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PedroCantor
19-03-2009, 11:12
Looking trough the IG rumour treed, mad me smile.

I am getting the feeling that fluff wise on the gaming table marines are back at where they where in Rogue trader. That is up pumped punksters in power armour that are barely controllable, sent to die inn the worst places. This because with new codex it seams that the IG can outperform the marines in the best gear category, all the fancy tank weapons and hell guns. And in tactics and strategy, with all the nice to have platooned drills and commands.

And it seams that IG has found out how to reload there orbital weapons batteries, aka able to fire more than once in the game. If I understand the rumours right.

So that much for the emperors words they will bee my champions and will haw the best weapons and equipments available.

Anybody else haw the same feeling about humanities finest demise?

MajorWesJanson
19-03-2009, 11:20
Guard doesn't get an orbital strike, they have bassies firing from a couple tables over, called in by the artillery officer.

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 11:36
''On your left we see a fanboi who has clearly not read the 2008 marine codex.''

Seriously, no. Marines are still GW's top dog, deal with it.

Nicha11
19-03-2009, 11:51
1. We can't really judge the fluff of an un released codex.

2. The background in the sm codex is insane, if you read it you would think that nobody else exists.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-03-2009, 12:02
Sorry to knock the wind out of your sails, but your reminiscence from back in the day bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the current rendition of Space Marines.

Commander titus
19-03-2009, 12:41
''On your left we see a fanboi who has clearly not read the 2008 marine codex.''

Seriously, no. Marines are still GW's top dog, deal with it.

i Agree, the imperial gaurd is just the meatie sheilded goodness of the imperium, Space marines are the true daddys boy. ;););)

PedroCantor
19-03-2009, 12:49
Ok, my bad about the IG orbital strike yes it ordnance.

But didnít mean to make an comparison to the written fluff as written all over GW stuff, but about how marines donít have axes to things IG has that makes them look on the table les trained and in some cases equipped.

To bee exact marines cant shoot there bolter 3 times as IG can with there special orders, that if anything is lesser training.

They cant run faster or go down to better cover for the same reason

There commanders even being strong heroes and can inspire the troops to unmatched personal fighting proves seldom give the troops tactical or strategic advantages. What by modern standards are what well trained commander do. Again poor tactical training on the game table.

IG officer gives opponent -1 to reserve roll and another gives +1 to them self, that is tactical skill.

IG weapons and equipment in parts are well amazing and if I where a marine commander I would bee wondering where is my superior weapons are. Land raider the epitome of imperial weapons technology is on the game table no mach for LR Vanquisher. And if the marines are supposed to bee the best equipped force in the imperium on the table they now in my opinion are lacking something.

So as I sead on the table comparing with IG they seam like marines of the old excellent fighters but lacking skills in tactics. And in some places they arenít the pest equipped force.

And I donít want in any way imply that now the next marine codex shud have marines with orders and Landraiders with vanquisher cannons. I do understand the concept of game balance and unique interesting armies that is the driving idea in the many special rules and different codexes.

Just wanted come fort with the notion that doesnít it seam like this if we look at how things are on the table, and it made me actually feel quite good. Maybe I make a marine army around the pukster theme like in the RT era.

Koryphaus
19-03-2009, 13:11
No, sorry mate. As in the past, the Guard are the Hammer, the Anvil, and the bit of floor that the Anvil is mounted on. The Marines are the scalpel.

Land Raider no match for a Vanquisher? That's because it isn't a dedicated tank hunting vehicle. Try a Terminus Ultra, that ought to do the trick. Or, just Drop Pod a Dreadnought with twin autocannons into the rear lines fo the guard, tanks will pop.

Tonberry
19-03-2009, 13:13
[QUOTE=PedroCantor;3387932]
To bee exact marines cant shoot there bolter 3 times as IG can with there special orders, that if anything is lesser training. QUOTE]

So here you're trying to suggest that Space Marines recieve less training than the Imperial Guard?

:wtf:


Guardsman are shooting a laser gun with no recoil and unlimited ammo, Marines are firing a rocket propelled grenade launcher. Also, 3 shot bolters would have a far greater impact on the tabletop than lasguns.

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 13:37
Marines get a better saves than guard, better leadership, stats and specials rules, Guard cannot regroup under half-strength, or gain army-wide stubbron. Guard have their own special rules and marines have theres, It's called ''game balance''. They operate by an entirely different play style.





To bee exact marines cant shoot there bolter 3 times as IG can with there special orders, that if anything is lesser training.



They don't need to shoot their bolter three times, it would unbalance the game and they hit more often anyway, the bolter is the superiour gun. How is that lesser training?



They cant run faster or go down to better cover for the same reason



And they don't need better go to ground rules, marines have toughness 4 and power armor, they are on the move as shock troops.




IG weapons and equipment in parts are well amazing and if I where a marine commander I would bee wondering where is my superior weapons are. Land raider the epitome of imperial weapons technology is on the game table no mach for LR Vanquisher. And if the marines are supposed to bee the best equipped force in the imperium on the table they now in my opinion are lacking something.



Of course a Vanquisher would be better a tank hunting than a land raider, that's what it's for, tank hunting. Land raiders are multipurpose vehicles, don't compare the two.




IG officer gives opponent -1 to reserve roll and another gives +1 to them self, that is tactical skill.



No it is not, that is the astropath's psyker powers and the prescence of the Imperial Navy.


Do you have anything constructive or are you just trolling?

Hive Mind 33
19-03-2009, 13:50
1/10
Troll harder man, troll harder.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 13:54
They cant run faster or go down to better cover for the same reason How is a walking tank going to hide better than a guardsman?

Captain Micha
19-03-2009, 13:56
Well duh. Of course the Marines are second rate.

They have to have any form of Fear removed from their system so that they can fight efficiently.

Bravery without Fear means nothing. Space marines do a whole lot of nothing.

It's all about the Guard. They are the real heroes of the Imperium.

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 14:16
Bravery without Fear means nothing. Space marines do a whole lot of nothing.

It's all about the Guard. They are the real heroes of the Imperium.

I must have missed the Great Crusade, Horus Heresy, the Black Crusades, The Age of Apostasy, the Scouring, the invasion of Hive Fleet Behemoth, All three wars of Armegeddon then.

A ''whole lot of nothing'' indeed.

Like it or not Marines are the guys who drop for orbit into 3-1 odds to fight and win for humanity. They gave up their humanity so that the Imperium lives. Both Guard and Marines are brave in thier own way.

KingDeath
19-03-2009, 14:18
My Grey Knights feel like second line troops. Yes realy, not only do those abominable Marine Captains get a higher weapon skill than my Grand Master no,
aparently everyone and his grandma can now get a Nemesis Force weapon equivalent ( relic blade ). They also get Predator tanks which are far better at tankhunting than my PAGK squad. They even get rhinos!
I find this realy unbalanced and would say that Grey Knights should get a base weapon skill of 11 and a strenght and toughnes of 10. The stormbolter should be replaced with an inbuilt assault cannon too.

To make it short, stop whining SM fanboys.Your Codex is fine and the IG realy deserves some love.

Captain Micha
19-03-2009, 14:22
I must have missed the Great Crusade, Horus Heresy, the Black Crusades, The Age of Apostasy, the Scouring, the invasion of Hive Fleet Behemoth, All three wars of Armegeddon then.

A ''whole lot of nothing'' indeed.

Like it or not Marines are the guys who drop for orbit into 3-1 odds to fight and win for humanity. They gave up their humanity so that the Imperium lives. Both Guard and Marines are brave in thier own way.

Great Crusade mostly the work of Guard. Marines were just strike forces.

Heresy= proof that marines are only good for Treason.

Armageddon was really Yarrick. Without Yarrick there would have been no Armageddon left for the Marines to come in and steal the credit.

If there really are only a thousand marine chapters in existence then the guard are what -really- keep the Imperium together Gw fluff be damned.

Also Kingdeath, know the feelin about the GKs... Sm are better in every way. Though the GKs make -great- Heavy Infantry in a Guard army!

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 14:25
I must have missed the Great Crusade, Horus Heresy, the Black Crusades, The Age of Apostasy, the Scouring, the invasion of Hive Fleet Behemoth, All three wars of Armegeddon then. You mean where the vast majority of fighting was conducted by the Imperial Guard (or Army) in each instance? Sure the SM's were involved and played their part, but the Imperial Guard is the base upon which everything rests, remove the Guard, and the SM's aren't going to last more than the blink of an eye as everything is overrun. Remove the SM's and the IG simply need to increase recruitment quotas a bit. With untold thousands of regiments in the imperium, compared with one marine per world, one is more dispensable than the other. Assume each space marine is worth a two hundred guardsmen, and it would only take a small increase in IG recruitment to cover the gap if the SM's all disappeared, 200 men from each world in the Imperium would cover it.


Numbers are the great equalizer.

Bloodknight
19-03-2009, 14:26
Like it or not Marines are the guys who drop for orbit into 3-1 odds to fight and win for humanity.

Marines are the guys who drop from orbit into battles that have been won by the guard and then steal all the glory:evilgrin:

Mannimarco
19-03-2009, 14:35
the guard didnt exist at the time of the crusade, that was the imperial army who were vastly different to the guard we all know and love today, with the exception of these damned SM fanbois

aw guard suddenly got good? now they might actually have a chance against my sms with their cheaper rhino, 3+ invulnerable termys? characters letting me move out of combat, fire then charge again and characters making all my flamers and meltas twin linked, guard are broken and cheesy and the noobs no brainer choice"

i realise i will get shot down by sm players for daring to bad mouth their army but lets face it, the marine codex already has a ton of nice stuff in it, dont other armies deserve to have nice stuff to or is it ust for the marines?

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 14:51
Great Crusade mostly the work of Guard. Marines were just strike forces.



Not really, it was shown in the Horus heresy novels that the guard just mopped up after the battles.





Heresy= proof that marines are only good for Treason.



You mean when half of the guard also went renagade and carved out thier own little Empires? The Marines defended the place on Terra and were at the forefront of the scouring. Half the legiosn along with half the Army, Nay and Mechanicus went.





Armageddon was really Yarrick. Without Yarrick there would have been no Armageddon left for the Marines to come in and steal the credit.



The Blood Angels took out half the ork army at the second War. In the First war the Space Wolves headed the line of defense before the Grey Knights banished Angron.


You mean where the vast majority of fighting was conducted by the Imperial Guard (or Army) in each instance? Sure the SM's were involved and played their part, but the Imperial Guard is the base upon which everything rests, remove the Guard, and the SM's aren't going to last more than the blink of an eye as everything is overrun. Remove the SM's and the IG simply need to increase recruitment quotas a bit. With untold thousands of regiments in the imperium, compared with one marine per world, one is more dispensable than the other. Assume each space marine is worth a two hundred guardsmen, and it would only take a small increase in IG recruitment to cover the gap if the SM's all disappeared, 200 men from each world in the Imperium would cover it.


Numbers are the great equalizer.

I never said the Guard were not needed. I was simply replying to other members comments clmaing that space marines did absolutly nothing.


Marines are the guys who drop from orbit into battles that have been won by the guard and then steal all the glory:evilgrin:

Give me some proof please. I have heard much ranting about Marines stealing glory but I have encountered precious little of it in the fluff.

PedroCantor
19-03-2009, 15:13
One point of personal interest

My original text was about comparing marines with IG on the table. But now this discussion has moved to the written fluff. You compare Marine to IG with the fluff that fine but do anybody think that the fluff cud bee presented on the table. Say recreate the battles and look cud the same results bee achieved? My point being that I always have considered that the fluff shud support the game not the other way around.

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 15:16
One point of personal interest

My original text was about comparing marines with IG on the table. But now this discussion has moved to the written fluff. You compare Marine to IG with the fluff that fine but do anybody think that the fluff cud bee presented on the table. Say recreate the battles and look cud the same results bee achieved? My point being that I always have considered that the fluff shud support the game not the other way around.

No, in the game you have insane things happen like the Nightbringer killed by some grots or drones killing that greater daemon. Not to mention most battles are marine vs. marine, somthing that is unlikely to happen in a mass scale in the fluff.

x-esiv-4c
19-03-2009, 15:18
....what about the Horus heresy?

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 15:23
....what about the Horus heresy?

I already dealt with that in my earlier post.

tuebor
19-03-2009, 15:31
I already dealt with that in my earlier post.

He was referring to Marine v. Marine battles, not the role of the Guard.

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 15:36
He was referring to Marine v. Marine battles, not the role of the Guard.

Loyal marine vs. traitors is not unusual. when you have Ultramarines vs. Ultramarines it get's weird.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 15:36
No, in the game you have insane things happen like the Nightbringer killed by some grots or drones killing that greater daemon. Not to mention most battles are marine vs. marine, somthing that is unlikely to happen in a mass scale in the fluff.

Or the fact that a Space Marine chapter would get wiped off the table by a Guard Regiment in 3 turns tops. Even with the current codex.

8-10 thousand guardsmen and a couple hundred attendant vehicles against 1000 space marines and a couple dozen vehicles?

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 16:05
Or the fact that a Space Marine chapter would get wiped off the table by a Guard Regiment in 3 turns tops. Even with the current codex.

8-10 thousand guardsmen and a couple hundred attendant vehicles against 1000 space marines and a couple dozen vehicles?

Where was I arguing that? Yes I know full well that if marnes are outnumbered 10-1 and at an inferiour armor advantage they will lose. Obviously. I was commenting how a bunch of grots can defeat and kill the Nightbringer in 40k.

Flying Toaster
19-03-2009, 18:15
Grots cant kill the nightbringer...

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 19:33
If the Nightbringer rolls all 1's and the Grot's 6's then yes.

Cythus
19-03-2009, 19:41
do grots have a high enough strength to hurt the Nightbringer, you need strength 5...

I think fluff wise, the SM and Guard have two very different roles that cannot be covered by the other

the SM do not have the numbers to defends trenches 1000s of km long on thousands of worlds...the guard do. Without the guard, the imperium would find it near impossible to hold worlds/territory etc.

the guard cannot drop-pod assult into the enemy HQ, killing the enemy arch-commander and his company of elite bodyguard, leaving the enemy unable to co-ordinate their planet wide responses effectively. Without the Sm humanity will not be able to do the surgical strikes which tip many campaign into imperial favour, maintaining the balance.

Therefore, both the guard and the SM are essential for the defence of the imperium but in different ways.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 19:50
the guard cannot drop-pod assult into the enemy HQ, killing the enemy arch-commander and his company of elite bodyguard, leaving the enemy unable to co-ordinate their planet wide responses effectively. Without the Sm humanity will not be able to do the surgical strikes which tip many campaign into imperial favour, maintaining the balance. Stormtroopers can and do exactly that, albeit at much higher casualty rates. There's also always the option of simply leveling the location of said HQ with sustained long range artillery fire, chemical and nuclear attacks (not represented so much in game anymore, but still occurs in fluff and previous editions had some stuff like that, the IA:5 & 6 describes use of chemical and nuclear weapons by Guard forces) or orbital bombardments.

SM's simply don't exist in the numbers necessary to accomplish that mission everywhere it's needed, hence the reason for Stormtroopers and other such special forces. They may lose a lot more guys, but for every Space Marine there are thousands of Stormtroopers.

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 19:53
Stormtroopers can and do exactly that, albeit at much higher casualty rates. There's also always the option of simply leveling the location of said HQ with sustained long range artillery fire, chemical and nuclear attacks (not represented so much in game anymore, but still occurs in fluff and previous editions had some stuff like that, the IA:5 & 6 describes use of chemical and nuclear weapons by Guard forces) or orbital bombardments.

SM's simply don't exist in the numbers necessary to accomplish that mission everywhere it's needed, hence the reason for Stormtroopers and other such special forces. They may lose a lot more guys, but for every Space Marine there are thousands of Stormtroopers.

Agreed, (except for HQ buildings which are sometimes heavily fortified to outside attack but that's another story) but when the SM's do it they do it better and faster than the stormies. Plus they fight in places that would kill a normal human.

BeatTheBeat
19-03-2009, 20:29
do grots have a high enough strength to hurt the Nightbringer, you need strength 5...

I think fluff wise, the SM and Guard have two very different roles that cannot be covered by the other

the SM do not have the numbers to defends trenches 1000s of km long on thousands of worlds...the guard do. Without the guard, the imperium would find it near impossible to hold worlds/territory etc.

the guard cannot drop-pod assult into the enemy HQ, killing the enemy arch-commander and his company of elite bodyguard, leaving the enemy unable to co-ordinate their planet wide responses effectively. Without the Sm humanity will not be able to do the surgical strikes which tip many campaign into imperial favour, maintaining the balance.

Therefore, both the guard and the SM are essential for the defence of the imperium but in different ways.

The first sensible reply in this whole thread. Honestly.

DarkMatter2
19-03-2009, 20:40
I am shocked it took people this long to figure this all out.

Yes - the Space Marines are important. Yes, they are far and away better warriors on a man for man basis than the Guard.

But yes, the Guard are 10,000 times more important to the defense of the Imperium than all the SM chapters put together.

The Guard is larger, mightier, and all around tougher. What the Space Marines do with super heroics, the Guard does with overwhelming firepower and numbers.

They both have their place - but someone would have to hugely misunderstand the background to think that the Space Marines who number around 1 million are as important or as powerful taken as a whole as the Hammer of the Emperor.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 20:42
Agreed, (except for HQ buildings which are sometimes heavily fortified to outside attack but that's another story) but when the SM's do it they do it better and faster than the stormies. Plus they fight in places that would kill a normal human.

This is true. Boarding Space Hulks is also something fairly lethal to even the best Guardsmen.

Somerandomidiot
19-03-2009, 21:06
This is true. Boarding Space Hulks is also something fairly lethal to even the best Guardsmen.

And it's not lethal to the poor Terminators? I always wondered, tabletop rules-wise, why they sent Termies in for Space Hulk missions, seeing as their highly advanced armor did diddly squat versus the Genestealers. =D

Bookwrak
19-03-2009, 21:23
Loyal marine vs. traitors is not unusual. when you have Ultramarines vs. Ultramarines it get's weird.

At the end of the game the players have to d6 it to see which of them was actually Alpha Legion. :p

Seargent K
19-03-2009, 21:44
Imperial guard are the defenders of the Imperium.Space Marines are the attackers.When Space Marines concuest a planet it 's the Imperial Guard that will keep it safe.Tottaly different armies and use.

Lord_Crull
19-03-2009, 23:44
I am shocked it took people this long to figure this all out.

Yes - the Space Marines are important. Yes, they are far and away better warriors on a man for man basis than the Guard.

But yes, the Guard are 10,000 times more important to the defense of the Imperium than all the SM chapters put together.

The Guard is larger, mightier, and all around tougher. What the Space Marines do with super heroics, the Guard does with overwhelming firepower and numbers.

They both have their place - but someone would have to hugely misunderstand the background to think that the Space Marines who number around 1 million are as important or as powerful taken as a whole as the Hammer of the Emperor.


That's what I have been saying this entire time

noobzor
20-03-2009, 00:11
The guard are necessary, whereas without marines life would be a LOT harder, but possible.

Though SM are cool, they really are not necessary.

Legionary
20-03-2009, 00:15
Or the fact that a Space Marine chapter would get wiped off the table by a Guard Regiment in 3 turns tops. Even with the current codex.

8-10 thousand guardsmen and a couple hundred attendant vehicles against 1000 space marines and a couple dozen vehicles?
That's correct by the fluff too. A chapter of space marines arrayed in battle against one of the large guard regiments would be utterly decimated.

Fluffwise, the Space Marines are special forces, and the reason they aren't sent in to pitched battle against a horde of renegades with the strength of an entire regiment is that they would lose.

SimonL
20-03-2009, 01:39
That's correct by the fluff too. A chapter of space marines arrayed in battle against one of the large guard regiments would be utterly decimated.

Fluffwise, the Space Marines are special forces, and the reason they aren't sent in to pitched battle against a horde of renegades with the strength of an entire regiment is that they would lose.

C'mon, how many thousand Dark Eldar got murderized by a paltry number of Marines in that Brothers of the Snake book? With zero losses (if I remember correctly)?

"For every one of us that falls, one hundred enemies shall die" :rolleyes:

Lord_Crull
20-03-2009, 01:59
C'mon, how many thousand Dark Eldar got murderized by a paltry number of Marines in that Brothers of the Snake book? With zero losses (if I remember correctly)?

"For every one of us that falls, one hundred enemies shall die" :rolleyes:

The same novel features power armor being hammered around like middle-ages plate mail. Abnett may be a good Guard writer but I would take anythign he writes for mariens with a large grain of salt.

SimonL
20-03-2009, 03:07
Notice the "rollseyes" lol, that was a tongue-in-cheek reference to Marine fluff being ridiculous.

AngryAngel
20-03-2009, 04:19
Oh its another one of these threads eh ? "Look at me I bash on marines!! I hate what most people love !!" Truely, it does make you the man to attack marines so, marine players have never heard such before.

Just because the guard vastly out number the marines doesn't make them better. They are simply diffrent. They function diffrent, and In no games I've ever fought do the guard out number the marines 10 to 1 or more. If your going by fluff a marine could easily take on 10 to 1 or worse odds vs guard.

Yes yes I know, marine fluff is crazy!!! Well ya know what ? Fluff is fluff, cherry picking the stuff ya like and condeming the rest is a pointless excercise as everyone can pick the truth they like the most.

The guard are much more numerous. The marines are a highly trained special forces. They function with fast moving vehicles, insertion methods and combat abilities. They aren't designed for straight up slug fests. They are designed for guriella warfare and blitz tactics.

I know the guard fan bois hate this, but they could both do well against each other if used well. The guard would not, in fluff or reg game be an auto win button. Saying the guard are better when they are both "diffrent" is insane, because they aren't.

Yeah, in our modern world here, our hardest special forces services are very small when compared to the main body army. They aren't designed to truely hold ground but move fast, fight smarter and accomplish a mission and move on to let the main body of the army hold the area taken. That doesn't make the special forces less important, or more worthless.

Nothing happens in a vaccum, and if marines weren't being held in check numbers wise and could simply be even 3 to 1 vs the guard, the guard would get so beat down it wouldn't even matter. Hence why chaos gives such a problem to cadia. Nothing keeps their numbers in check.

So saying, "the guard could totally trounce the SM as they are now." is kind of a duh statement. Of course they could, they aren't designed as a fighting force to destroy the entire imperial guard. However, if they were designed to destroy them. There woud be a hell of a lot more of them, and they'd be much better then the guard.

I know, all my words are madness , its cool to love guard and heresy to love marines. I get it, I just don't believe it.

SimonL
20-03-2009, 04:31
Marines have been my favorite army for 13 years lol. I have myself a 7000 pointish army of homebrewed Chapter goodness :P

JCOLL
20-03-2009, 04:44
Reading this I really feel like I shouldn't reply as all the arguments have been played out as far as they really need to go. BUT, this is warseer, and here we all like to state the obvious. So I'm going to have my turn. :)

SM may be smaller in numbers, but when faced with overwhelming odds it's still fairly balanced as the SM will make a spearhead advance into the heart of the IG command. Cut off the head and the body will die. Take that "The IG would kill SM in numberts, etc etc..."

Clearly they are both needed to defend the Imperium from the alien and the traitor. In fluff contexts, IG rarely pull of a quick decisive strike like SM. It's all about a war of attrition and body count at the end of the day. SM are made to get it, get dirty, and take out the 'brains' of the operation. That's basically how every Horus Heresy book goes in regards to Marines in a battle. It's the IG's job to stab the dead flooping body till it stops bleeding.

I guarantee you my Dark Angels would make you change your mind :)

Oberst Viktor Morte
20-03-2009, 04:48
Now, as per my understanding, wasn't this thread a light-hearted joke, ironically pointing out that with this new codex it seems that the Guard will now be doing most of the fighting, leaving the Marines relegated to rearguard fighting?

Irony? Joke? Marine fanboi *******?

Besides, Eldar are totally better than both of them anyway. :p

Vaktathi
20-03-2009, 04:51
.

I know the guard fan bois hate this, but they could both do well against each other if used well. The guard would not, in fluff or reg game be an auto win button. Saying the guard are better when they are both "diffrent" is insane, because they aren't.

I think people are trying to make the point that the relative difference in numbers makes the SM much less significant and powerful in the overall scheme of things than many are led to believe, and that the SM's are not the only ones capable of performing the tasks they do, others are able to do so, just less efficiently. They need to be able to do so, there aren't enough Space Marines to be everywhere they are needed. The guard has forces that can perform guerilla warfare and blitz tactics.

Most people take 1 SM to equal 10 normal human soldiers. Again, lets multiply that by a factor of 2000% for the sake of argument to 200. If the Space Marines in their entirety disappeared in an instant, if the Imperial Guard recruited merely 200 more soldiers from every world in the Imperium (not exactly something that would be all that hard), the ability of the Imperium to defend itself would not diminish at all, and thats assuming a twenty-fold increase in the relative value of the Space Marines. For every Space Marine there are untold thousands of Guardsmen and dozens if not hundreds of tanks. Even assuming a ludicriously conservative estimate of only one regiment for every ten worlds in the Imperium, assuming an 8-10,000 man regiment (a bit on the small side) there are 800-1000 guardsmen to each Space Marine. When SM's are good for 10:1, that still leaves them handicapped by a factor of 80:1 or 100:1, and thats assuming an extremely limited Imperial Guard size. Assuming 1 regiment for every world, that leaves SM's out numbered 8000-10000:1. That's 8-10 thousand fighting soldiers for every world in the Imperium, a rather insignificant number, especially if you compare it to Earth currently with millions of soldiers across the planet, but even at that size the Space Marines are so small in number as to be negligable. Assume the "average" planet in the Imperium has 3 billion people (less than half of earths population) and only 1 in 10,000 are recruited into the Imperial Guard, that's 300,000 soldiers for each world in the Imperium (about double modern day Germany's Army size including reserve forces, for a population about 35 times larger than Germany), say 30 regiments, leaving a far lesser proportion of the population under arms than current day Earth (and given the martial nature of the Imperium, that's an exceedingly low estimate).

That's still 300,000 guardsmen for *each* Space Marine. That's 300,000,000,000 (three hundred billion) Guardsmen to 1,000,000 Space Marines (one million, a thousand chapters of a thousand brothers). That's not including PDF forces, Arbites, the Mechanicus, Inquisitorial forces, etc...


It tends to make the Space Marines look inconsequential in the larger scheme of things.

Oberst Viktor Morte
20-03-2009, 04:59
It tends to make the Space Marines look inconsequential in the larger scheme of things.

I think I've found the flaw in your arguement. Logic my good sir. It has no place in Warhammer, not while GW is still writing the fluff! :p

Spotty
20-03-2009, 05:12
AHA! Yes another point to support whichever side can twist it the most. It is entirely possible to wipe out an imp guard army that outnumbers a marine (or chaos in my case) army by 2:1 (that's pointswise not modelwise, and the battle in question was 2k v 4k) without losing a full squad. Fluffwise it makes sense but gamewise it was one of those crazy instances, so while some of the fluff seems out there about any army fighting against a larger force and winning, chances are it was something that's already happened on the table many, many times. If you guys really want to solve the argument, stage a battle of one thousand marines versus whatever size the appropriate guard force is supposed to be.

AngryAngel
20-03-2009, 05:21
To you, it makes them look so. However, in fact, they are not. They still handle their tasks and jobs, better then like, but less well trained, armed and augmented counter parts in the guard. They have their point and are very pivotal when they are there to engage in operations.

Yes there are more guard then marines, no one is arguing that. You can think the precious, lovely, and always brave guard are so much better if ya want to. Thats just your opinion, the SM supporters have theirs. We won't see eye to eye, it doesn't matter how many trillions of guards you roll out in examples. Without the marines, the imperium wouldn't have even survived after the heresy.

As well without them the great crusade would have been a bust, lacking the muscle to get the tasks done with any kind of speed.

Yes there are billions more guardsmen then SM's around, but when you fight a russiian style meat grinder battle, you kind of have to have a crap ton of guys don't ya ? Hundreds of marines dead are huge losses. Millions of dead guard is just another day in war.

If the SM all vanished, I think they would definatly feel it. They would lack a great tool and asset, and things would start to go downhill for the imperium even more then they already are. Thats my opinion, as all of these are. You can keep saying huge numbers, and saying how unstoppable tons of guard are, but we just wouldn't know without all this happening would we ?

I do know if marine players all vanished, so would 40k. That makes them insanely significant in a totally real sense to me.

Vaktathi
20-03-2009, 05:31
Yes there are more guard then marines, no one is arguing that. You can think the precious, lovely, and always brave guard are so much better if ya want to. Nobody is arguing that Space Marines are better man for man, just so rare that in the vast majority of wars fought by the Imperium they are a non-existent factor.


Without the marines, the imperium wouldn't have even survived after the heresy. Wait what? Really? Without the Marines there would have been no Heresy in the first place.



As well without them the great crusade would have been a bust, lacking the muscle to get the tasks done with any kind of speed. Only in the initial stages, but granted sure. Once underway most forces had no Space Marines, there were only 20 Legions but far more Crusade armies.



Yes there are billions more guardsmen then SM's around, but when you fight a russiian style meat grinder battle, you kind of have to have a crap ton of guys don't ya ? Not every Guard army fights in this manner. Guard encompass everything from forces similar to Soviet Udarny Strelkovy conscript hordes, to elite mechanized Wehrmacht Panzergrenadiers (hence why we have Veterans, Grenadiers, Stormtroopers, etc), to modern day air cavalry forces and just about everything in between.


Hundreds of marines dead are huge losses. Millions of dead guard is just another day in war. To an extent, maybe. That said, assuming that whole 10 normal soldiers for every 1 Space Marine, 300 dead space marines would translate to 3000 dead guardsmen. Millions of dead guardsmen would entail a conflict that would consume entire chapters.


If the SM all vanished, I think they would definatly feel it. They would lack a great tool and asset, and things would start to go downhill for the imperium even more then they already are. Thats my opinion, as all of these are. You can keep saying huge numbers, and saying how unstoppable tons of guard are, but we just wouldn't know without all this happening would we ? It would depend on whoever was writing the fluff for it in all honesty and how exaggerated they wanted to make SM battles. But from any realistic perspective, the SM's are a relic of a past age, kept around because when they are available they work very well and they are on the Imperiums side, but when it comes down to the raw numbers, the SM's are relatively insignificant.

Look at it this way, take the entire US army and call it the Imperial Guard. Now take 3 uber killy dudes that are worth 10, 20, even a hundred men and call them Space Marines. Those 3 guys are useful sure, but for the most part mainly insignificant in relation to the larger US army.



I do know if marine players all vanished, so would 40k. That makes them insanely significant in a totally real sense to me.In terms of fluff of course, nobody is debating that. It was only a hypothetical to illustrate the relative size and ability of the Space Marines relative to the other forces available to the Imperium.

(also, just to make sure it's understood, I do play a Marine army, I'm not against Space Marines or trying to diminish people who play them.)

godfather99
20-03-2009, 06:05
Although in the vast "scale" of the warhammer world i think the arguments that state the imp would continue w/o marines make me chuckle, what happens when an entire world is taken over by chaos blahblahblah, i have read in various places of the affects of chaos on normal men...... so how in these cases would the vast numbers of the guard push their side to a w ??

General Squeek Squeek
20-03-2009, 06:23
of course in the overall scheme of things marines aren't seen often. They're to awesome :p to fight the normal battles that the IG meatgrinding machine is good for. Despite their tiny numbers they still manage to show up to crucial battlefields and tip the scale in favor of the guard when needed though.

I think of them like the kicker in football. Sure they guy can't tackle, block, run, throw, catch or do really anything else but kick, but try and tell a football team that they're kicker is a pointless role and that they can still win games without him. I mean really now the QB, RB, and WB are much better and scoring TD's then him. The Linemen block way better, but at the end of the day a close game is almost always decided by that guy. :D

When a space marine chapter shows up to a battlefield its always a good day for the IG commanders. It's they're rarity that makes them so valuable when they are available. They're small number of course mean that 90% of combat (or probably even more) don't ever see a space marine grace their presence. Its only crucial battles that they show up for.

Spotty
20-03-2009, 06:58
Wait what? Really? Without the Marines there would have been no Heresy in the first place.



Actually when you consider it, for there to be no space marines there would have to be no primarch and thusly no emperor, so really there would be no imperium to begin with without the space marines.

Vaktathi
20-03-2009, 07:34
Actually when you consider it, for there to be no space marines there would have to be no primarch and thusly no emperor, so really there would be no imperium to begin with without the space marines.

The Emperor was around long before the Space Marines, he created them and the Primarchs. The Emperor would still exist, and would probably not be stuck on a glorified pot.

zeep
20-03-2009, 07:36
Actually when you consider it, for there to be no space marines there would have to be no primarch and thusly no emperor, so really there would be no imperium to begin with without the space marines.

:wtf: The end of a primarch does not necessitate the end of the emperor.

Occulto
20-03-2009, 08:00
Now, as per my understanding, wasn't this thread a light-hearted joke, ironically pointing out that with this new codex it seems that the Guard will now be doing most of the fighting, leaving the Marines relegated to rearguard fighting?

Irony? Joke? Marine fanboi *******?

I'm laughing because some people are taking their 40K pulp fiction a little too seriously. :D It reminds me a lot of arguments in the schoolyard about who'd win in a fight between Batman and Spiderman.


Besides, Eldar are totally better than both of them anyway. :p

Pffft... Typical Eldar player. :rolleyes:

:p

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-03-2009, 10:18
others are able to do so, just less efficiently.

That difference in efficiency, however, is the crux of the matter. A Space Marine Chapter is a self-sufficient strike force; they have their own forges, they don't need the Navy for transport, and so on. The difference between a Space Marine force arriving just in the nick of time and a Guard regiment having to make up for lost time and act with less efficiency could decide the fate of worlds.

It's not just about raw numbers. I agree, personally, that Marine Chapters should be bigger; ten thousand Chapters of ten thousand sounds reasonable to me, with pre-Heresy Legions being undoubtedly in the hundreds of thousands. But it is what it is.


Most people take 1 SM to equal 10 normal human soldiers.

Each Space Marine alone. I posit that a squad of Space Marines might be worth more, and a Company even greater. Not exponentially so... but still.


Wait what? Really? Without the Marines there would have been no Heresy in the first place.

That depends on how far you take the blame. The Legions were involved, but the movers and the shakers were the Primarchs. Or you can take it another way and blame the High Lords. Or you can take it yet another way and blame the Emperor Himself (but that's heresy).


also, just to make sure it's understood, I do play a Marine army, I'm not against Space Marines or trying to diminish people who play them.

Calling anyone's army insignificant is bound to get them riled up.


The Emperor was around long before the Space Marines, he created them and the Primarchs. The Emperor would still exist, and would probably not be stuck on a glorified pot.

The Emperor created the Primarchs and the Space Marines to unite and save Humanity. At the very least we can believe He thought at the time that this was the best achievable way of going about it. The Emperor might exist if he hadn't created the Primarchs and Legions, but there's a good chance Humanity would be slaves to Chaos.

Vaktathi
20-03-2009, 10:35
That difference in efficiency, however, is the crux of the matter. A Space Marine Chapter is a self-sufficient strike force; they have their own forges, they don't need the Navy for transport, and so on. The difference between a Space Marine force arriving just in the nick of time and a Guard regiment having to make up for lost time and act with less efficiency could decide the fate of worlds. Sure, but the IG and other agencies have their own rapid reaction forces. A guard crusade fleet lumbering along like a leviathan is one thing. An Inquisitorial Strike force of twenty thousand Inquisitorial stormtroopers and Sisters of Battle can be another thing altogether.




It's not just about raw numbers. I agree, personally, that Marine Chapters should be bigger; ten thousand Chapters of ten thousand sounds reasonable to me, with pre-Heresy Legions being undoubtedly in the hundreds of thousands. But it is what it is. Indeed. The fluff about only one million Space Marines leaves them horribly under-strength. If there were a hundred million Space Marines they would be a much greater force, but having the equivalent of only one per planet is leaves them just too small in number relative to other Imperial forces.




Each Space Marine alone. I posit that a squad of Space Marines might be worth more, and a Company even greater. Not exponentially so... but still. If you noticed a couple earlier posts I factored in SM's as even 200:1 better than normal human soldiers, a multiplier of 20. Even at such a strength, the current numbers of Space Marines remain simply too small to be of relevance in a realistic sense.




Or you can take it another way and blame the High Lords. How? Other than enacting legislation that made a couple Legions act like 12 year olds and take the rest with them?





Calling anyone's army insignificant is bound to get them riled up. True, probably poor wording, but another method of phrasing didn't come to mind. At the same time, I play a Marine army (granted, CSM's not loyalists, but I have much the same view of relative size factor for CSM's as well), so I should have some room to speak on that point.

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-03-2009, 10:56
How? Other than enacting legislation that made a couple Legions act like 12 year olds and take the rest with them?

I'm just looking at it in perspective. To be honest, the blame really lies with the Primarchs and the Emperor- the Legions just followed, as did the AM, Imperial Army, and so on.

KingDeath
20-03-2009, 11:37
I personaly think that it is nonsense to compare Space Marine numbers with IG numbers. In such a contest the IG will always win. The value of the Chapters is that they can do things that even a much larger IG crusade cant.

They are small, they are fast and they are mobile. That is actualy quite valuable
for quite a few tasks like the always mentioned surgical strikes. Compare a company of Spacemarines which take out the enemy headquarter with perhaps a regiment of imperial guard soldiers ( for the same task ) which is slower, needs more logistics and so on. Or let us say, the cleansing of a Spacehulk. Or destroying a potential WHAAAGH before it can actualy start ( by slaying the Whaagboss ).
For this and many similar tasks an IG strikeforce would be too big, too slow and too demanding from a logistical viewpoint.

So, to make it short. While the Imperial Guard can field much more guns and firepower it is difficult and sometimes simply not possible to field them because there is more to warfare than just swamping the enemy with bodies :)

Lord_Crull
20-03-2009, 14:59
Sure, but the IG and other agencies have their own rapid reaction forces. A guard crusade fleet lumbering along like a leviathan is one thing. An Inquisitorial Strike force of twenty thousand Inquisitorial stormtroopers and Sisters of Battle can be another thing altogether.


Example was not Guard it was SoB and inquisition.

Marines are not the ''relic of a bygone age''. They can do things that the Guard simply cannot do or do less efficently. Take for example Taros, when a planetary gov rebeled the marine were already there quickly before any guard couild be assembled at all. the only problem was the suprise appeance of the Tau.

Marines can go to a planet, drop in and kill the gov and send a very efficient message, that is enough to end the average rebellion of the planetary gov. Guard deployments take far far longer for even only a few regiments.

For mass war go with the Guard for sure, for surgical strikes the marines are better battle-for-battle.



Wait what? Really? Without the Marines there would have been no Heresy in the first place.



The Emperor created the primarchs to lead his army, the marines were created as an afterthough after he lost them. Even if he had no space marines Chaos would have corrupted half the Army anyway to stop the Emperor's vision. The Heresy was going to happen at some point regardless of the marines.


To be honest a lot of this stuff reads as. ''Look at me, I play guard and hate marines so I must be cool!'' That might not be what you mean but that's how me and some people are perciving it. I mentioned nowehere that Guard were worthless, indeed I said they were vital to the existance of the Imperium, but then you come along and start defending the Guard when I was not even attacking the Guard in the first place.

Now I know you play marines also, but that just what it sounds like.

rrchristensen
20-03-2009, 16:05
Gnnn, the enormity of the sheer pointlessness of this thread flabbergasts me.

For the record, the Tyranids will eat you all.

TheEndIsHere
20-03-2009, 16:36
Gnnn, the enormity of the sheer pointlessness of this thread flabbergasts me.

For the record, the Tyranids will eat you all.

QFT,

cept the last part, necrons will kill all...

Cythus
20-03-2009, 19:14
Example was not Guard it was SoB and inquisition.

Marines are not the ''relic of a bygone age''. They can do things that the Guard simply cannot do or do less efficently. Take for example Taros, when a planetary gov rebeled the marine were already there quickly before any guard couild be assembled at all. the only problem was the suprise appeance of the Tau.

Marines can go to a planet, drop in and kill the gov and send a very efficient message, that is enough to end the average rebellion of the planetary gov. Guard deployments take far far longer for even only a few regiments.

For mass war go with the Guard for sure, for surgical strikes the marines are better battle-for-battle.



The Emperor created the primarchs to lead his army, the marines were created as an afterthough after he lost them. Even if he had no space marines Chaos would have corrupted half the Army anyway to stop the Emperor's vision. The Heresy was going to happen at some point regardless of the marines.


To be honest a lot of this stuff reads as. ''Look at me, I play guard and hate marines so I must be cool!'' That might not be what you mean but that's how me and some people are perciving it. I mentioned nowehere that Guard were worthless, indeed I said they were vital to the existance of the Imperium, but then you come along and start defending the Guard when I was not even attacking the Guard in the first place.

Now I know you play marines also, but that just what it sounds like.

exactly.

If all the marines suddenly vanished, it would take more than 200 extra recruits from each planet to cover the gap. Yes marines may only be worth 40-200 men in a straight battle, but you misunderstand their use. To replace the marines it would take many, many more men.

Take stopping a planetary rebellion:
There is a strong rebel pdf, rebel air force, rebel super heavies, rebel spaceships, rebel artillery, rebel guard...thew whole deal

SM
A chapter would drop-pod the governors place, killing him and his 500 or so elite bodyguards, maybe taking 20-50 casualties, bypassing all the superheavies etc

Stormtroppers
They to can deepstrike the governors place but it would take maybe 1000 and they would suffer about 500 casualties

Guard
They cannot storm the place from orbit so have to
a fight their way there
b kill all rebellious regiments
Either way, the rebel men, of which there could be 1 million, will oppose them and fight their way through that could cause 2 million casualties (when attackers attack a well entrenched force of defenders of equal quality, they take more casualties)
in addition to this, the loyal guard neeed supplying (food, ammo, fuel) for the year or so it would take to win, this means using up thousands of times more resources than the SM used


this is why the SM are needed

Mannimarco
20-03-2009, 19:26
its true marines are an essential part of the war machine but remember if there were no marines avaialble command wouldnt think twice about sending in millions of guard and suffering countless casualties, in the imperium life is cheap

isaac
20-03-2009, 19:26
Exactly SM are the elite rapid response strike force. They storm and drop pod, they smash through the enemy lines and cause chaos so the guard can move in and suffer fewer losses, etc.

Mannimarco
20-03-2009, 19:32
now are the marines glory hogs? yes and no, they are heroes of the imperium and their stories are remembered, the guard are just grunts and its part of the job description

handful of marines wipes out thousands of orks: wow thats awesome these guys must rule! imperial guard narmenian 1st wipes out 200 traitor vehicles in one day.....meh theres thousands of guard so who cares, theyre meant to do stuff like that

sycopat
20-03-2009, 19:38
All the guard vs space marine talk is a bit ***** really isn't it? Fluffwise they are the same side.

Both have strengths and weaknesses, and in fact the strength of the space marines is complimentary to the weaknesses of the guard (And vice versa)

Marines CANNOT take and hold entire planets or fight months and years long campaigns of attrition(Of the type needed to take and hold a planet): They are too few and too costly.

Guard CANNOT perform stand alone rapid insertion tactical surgical strikes: Too numerous, need too much support, storm troopers =/= stand alone troops.

Only together are they able to offset each other's very real weaknesses.

I think of it like this:

If the imperium can win through killing one individual: They send in assassins.

If the imperium can win by killing a few individuals/achieving one or two decisive victories: They send in space marines.

If the imperium has to take and hold large swathes of territory/grind their opponents into dust: They send in the guard.

If more than one of those objectives has to be met or is a conflict is beyond the scale of a single planet: They will send in a combined force.

In the end everyone is just a tool of the imperium.

PedroCantor
20-03-2009, 21:59
Ass somebody mentioned my original post was an lightly humorous notations of how i see a similarity beat wean marines of today on the game table to the fluff of marines in Rogue trader. It was not meant to change the status q of thing because that would have been hoping too much.

But seeing the response all of you have posted I do agree on the point that marines are the elite rapid deployment force of the imperium witch excel at surgical strikes at important targets. And at this mission there small numbers are of a lesser handicap than an all out fight against line troops. And yes I think also that the number of about one million marines is just too small, but I just see it as a thing the designers at GW had not thought about as they are not making a military correct game. So I personally just consider there to bee lot more marines than one million, there haft to bee.

But what I hop GW would do is to bring the missions in the game to such that they present the missions different armies by the fluff do as this would give a better picture of the specialties of different armyís. For marines this would mean missions where they have an crushing superiority for a moment in which they have to destroy an important target say a governor or some important equipment. And that would be the only thing that matters for them to win, after this ďmomentĒ there would start coming reinforcement to the defender wich basically will destroy the marines if they donít pull out in time. Mission like this I think are the ones we read in the fluff where marine companies storm a governors palace and the company just crushes the relatively lightly armed troops there and try to find the governor before the reinforcement arrive to save the day. But I see the problem of how to make a game like this interesting on the table as it is in general quite restrictive what comes to it size and what is available in a local gaming club. Not to mention the problem of the mission being quite complex and maybe the current rules donít support games like this, with its general idea that the forces shud bee the same game to game and evenly matched.
To make it clearer what I mean the scenario shud bee even and fare but the forces fighting it donít , the mission and circumstances shud make the scenario even and fare to both players.

And until this happened I believe we are forced to see marines fight and die at line battles witch makes them look les their counterparts in the written fluff. But I hope that someday this will be corrected and until that I play some times with the old rogue trader rules that made games like this possible. And here is the deeper tough of my original statement that marines look on the table lesser that what they shud in my opinion. A marine shud bee the best all-around on the table able to everything a IG trooper and then some, but in order for the game to bee balance the circumstances shud make the game fare not some restrictions that donít portray the fluff .
But as I have noticed that I am not quite able to express myself in written English as it is not my native language, I just want say that it is interesting to see how much discussion this generated. And still I am not trying to say that different armyes are not allowed to bee effective on the current game or something like that, this was just an opinion on what I would hope the game would become in a optimal situation. And I play 5th ed because there is to few gamers of rogue trader left to make it more than a couple of games a year.

P.S what is a fan boy :)

Mannimarco
20-03-2009, 22:05
a fan boy is a raging fanatic that absolutely believes thier army will win regarless of the circumstances regarless of logic or realism, there was an ogryn vs marine thread a while back that lasted about 20 somthing pages, most were just insane and impossible rantings with no proof or evidence to support them, check it out if you ever need a laugh

codex 5th ed space marines has given fanboys so much ammunition to throw around and theres a chance the guard codex will do the same

eg small group of marines wipes out a bloody great big world engine type plantet thing, a chapter master (who shall remain nameless) catching a molten sword (without melting) and bitch slapping the manifestation of the eldar god of war, black library books have stuff like this as well x marines wipe out y thousand orks/eldar/dark eldar with no casualties

AngryAngel
21-03-2009, 01:19
Well, for my 2 cents. I have a marine and a guard army as well. I do take slight in my first army ( marines ) being called insignificant. It angers me, and really playing loyalist marines you have to deal with enough hate all the time.

Lets just say both guard and marines are and can be cool, and leave it at that. They, as has been mentioned are both on the same side, and work diffrent, with diffrent strong/weak points. They are both needed at this point. Especially considering even with both present they are still losing ground. That should say it all right there.

The Gothic Me
21-03-2009, 01:51
I've never liked the way marines have their cake while consuming it anyway in the current fluff. When ever they have to justify them being obscenely powerful it's done by saying that they are a small and elite strike force with all the best equipment. This makes sense, but the trade off is that they are too small to fight wars on their own or have any statistical meaning for the Imperium as a whole. Yet this is never the case, Marines frequently fight planet wide wars single handedly, and people will jump on you if you suggest the marines arn't the first and most important line of defense for the imperium, with out which they would crumble.

Lord_Crull
21-03-2009, 02:12
I've never liked the way marines have their cake while consuming it anyway in the current fluff. When ever they have to justify them being obscenely powerful it's done by saying that they are a small and elite strike force with all the best equipment. This makes sense, but the trade off is that they are too small to fight wars on their own or have any statistical meaning for the Imperium as a whole. Yet this is never the case, Marines frequently fight planet wide wars single handedly, and people will jump on you if you suggest the marines arn't the first and most important line of defense for the imperium, with out which they would crumble.

Where in the fluff do marines fight wars single-handedly? Every peice I have read on marines has them on elite-strike missions or with the Imperial Guard in the background providing support.


Well, for my 2 cents. I have a marine and a guard army as well. I do take slight in my first army ( marines ) being called insignificant. It angers me, and really playing loyalist marines you have to deal with enough hate all the time.

Lets just say both guard and marines are and can be cool, and leave it at that. They, as has been mentioned are both on the same side, and work diffrent, with diffrent strong/weak points. They are both needed at this point. Especially considering even with both present they are still losing ground. That should say it all right there.

Agreed.

The Gothic Me
21-03-2009, 02:49
Where in the fluff do marines fight wars single-handedly? Every peice I have read on marines has them on elite-strike missions or with the Imperial Guard in the background providing support.


Tell that to Hive fleet Behemoth, or the Eldar, or indeed most of the participants of the Horus Heresy.

EDIT: I know these aren't the best examples out there, but there is way to much pulp fluff out there and I don't have the time to find names. All I can say is a huge amount of fluff has space marines operating as armies big enough to effect things on the galactic scale all the time, and I find it a little hard to believe you haven't. Otherwise, people are free to remember what ever fluff pieces they can remember and decide of they agree with me.

Lord_Crull
21-03-2009, 03:03
Tell that to Hive fleet Behemoth, or the Eldar, or indeed most of the participants of the Horus Heresy.

Behemoth had the Ultramar PDF at the Polar fortresses and the heavy involvment of the Imperial Navy, the Ultramarines were at the forefront because it was their freaking home.

Name a more spesfic battle for Eldar please.

For the Horus Heresy you must remeber that 1. the Legion were very large back then, and 2. A huge number of Army and Navy assets fought on the side of Horus as well as the Titan legions, they did a big chunk of the fightign as well.

AngryAngel
21-03-2009, 03:15
Ok, Hive fleet behemoth had to deal with not only the space fleet of most if not all of the ultramarines chapter, but also many other imperial navy ships and the PDF orbital defense stations.

As well on the planet they had Mechanicus titans, tons of PDF ( guard ) as well as Ultramarines. It wasn't just marines, and they took a heavy beating in that battle. Was everyone working together there.

The Eldar story was just crazy. no one is arguing that. I'm assuming you mean hear of the marine battle company or two destroying a craftworld.

As for the Heresy, normal guard of the time turned as well as marines. While the most of it focuses on marines, other factors did play in there. As well at that time there were a good deal more marines about so of course they could do more on their own.

Few stories of them have them being the only people there and fighting. If anything in most stories marines die to the last man. As they are always going into hopeless battles and having desperate last stands. Yes some of the fluff for them is amazingly over the top. However not all of it is.

For the record as well, no one is saying marines are the first and best line of defense. The pro marines are simply saying they are significant and important.

The Gothic Me
21-03-2009, 03:40
Ok, Hive fleet behemoth had to deal with not only the space fleet of most if not all of the ultramarines chapter, but also many other imperial navy ships and the PDF orbital defense stations.

As well on the planet they had Mechanicus titans, tons of PDF ( guard ) as well as Ultramarines. It wasn't just marines, and they took a heavy beating in that battle. Was everyone working together there.

None the less, the hive fleet easily rolled over all the other imperial systems which had all the same defenses; pdf, titans, navy. Put when they reach Ultrimar, suddenly things change, and they are totally destroyed. The only difference is the 1000 power armored bad asses who join the billions of defenders. In other words, though they aren't the only defenders, the ultramarines still make a net difference large enough to make a truly massive difference on a planetary scale.


The Eldar story was just crazy. no one is arguing that. I'm assuming you mean hear of the marine battle company or two destroying a craftworld.

The very same. Please don't say that no one is arguing that, you might not be, but they certainly are part of the argument and any one who says marines aren't represented like this has to at least address this sought of thing


As for the Heresy, normal guard of the time turned as well as marines. While the most of it focuses on marines, other factors did play in there. As well at that time there were a good deal more marines about so of course they could do more on their own.

Yes, but again, it's like the defense of Ultrima, all the difference is made by the marines.

And please don't say there were more marines back then, because 100,000 man legions really isn't very big.


Few stories of them have them being the only people there and fighting. If anything in most stories marines die to the last man. As they are always going into hopeless battles and having desperate last stands. Yes some of the fluff for them is amazingly over the top. However not all of it is.

Not all of it, but a huge amount of it, far too much of it. From what I've seen, they often are the only people fighting, they rarely if ever die to the last man (the chapter couldn't continue if they did) usually they have a few survivors and it's the enemy who dies to the last man. They always go into hopeless last stands, and win.


For the record as well, no one is saying marines are the first and best line of defense. The pro marines are simply saying they are significant and important.

They don't say it outright, but they do imply it or say it indirectly. In fact, suggesting that they are important on a galactic level is doing exactly that.

Lord_Crull
21-03-2009, 03:50
None the less, the hive fleet easily rolled over all the other imperial systems which had all the same defenses; pdf, titans, navy. Put when they reach Ultrimar, suddenly things change, and they are totally destroyed. The only difference is the 1000 power armored bad asses who join the billions of defenders. In other words, though they aren't the only defenders, the ultramarines still make a net difference large enough to make a truly massive difference on a planetary scale.



Wrong, the worlds that Behemoth overran were pitiful in defense compared to what the Ultramarines had. The battlefleet of an entire Segmentum was present at the battle. In addtion the Ultramarines launched, suprise here folks, a surgical strike that took out the main hive ship, rending the other ships in disorder.



And please don't say there were more marines back then, because 100,000 man legions really isn't very big.



The primarchs were present along with significant fleet, titan and navy assets. Are you even listening to what we are saying?





The very same. Please don't say that no one is arguing that, you might not be, but they certainly are part of the argument and any one who says marines aren't represented like this has to at least address this sought of thing



The new marine codex is full of fanboy tripe that takes numerous liberties with fluff. I would not take it seriously.




Not all of it, but a huge amount of it, far too much of it. From what I've seen, they often are the only people fighting, they rarely if ever die to the last man (the chapter couldn't continue if they did) usually they have a few survivors and it's the enemy who dies to the last man. They always go into hopeless last stands, and win.



They don't say it outright, but they do imply it or say it indirectly. In fact, suggesting that they are important on a galactic level is doing exactly that.

So in other words you offered a set of battles of which only a single one was valid, and that battle was from a badly-written fanboy codex, contrary to the rest of the background.

So you have the Eldar battle, we on the other hand have numerous depictions of Marines backed up heavily by Guard, Navy, Inq and Titans

AngryAngel
21-03-2009, 04:00
Yes the ultramarines defending there home "gasp and awe" did make a diffrence!! See thats what most people are arguing about marines. They are spread thin and rarely are anywhere in such numbers. However, when they are they can and do make a diffrence. If ya have a problem with that, take it up with GW.

I have heard not one person saying that Eldar story is even remotely true. When a marine defender does, I'll say he's full of crap. As no one has even cited it but you, I'll simply ignore it, for now.

Of course the diffrence was made by the marines. The heresy was "more gasp and awe" lead by traitor marines. Why wouldn't they make the diffrence in their biggest hurrah vs one another ?

I could name a few chapters who while not dieing to the last man generally fight till the very last moment. Leaving themselves woefully undermanned for quite some time. Crimson fists I believe being one, one of the chapters of the unforgiven has a penchant for fighting till the bitter end alot against over whelming odds. Many times having been in dire straits from it. As well whole chapters have died doing just what you claim never happens.

Now you didn't say never, but hardly ever. Which just those examples aren't hardly ever.

They are important at the galactic level, your baseless and completely biased marine hate aside. All of the imperium fighting together is still losing ground. If it could just be changed by raising more troops don't ya think they would ? Even with the marines, its a losing battle everyday. So yes, if they were gone it would have an impact on the imperium as a whole as they would lose ever greater numbers. Even with the untold billions, chaos has limitless numbers, as do the Nids, as do the Necrons always come back, etc.

You hate marines, we get it, it's cool to hate what is popular.

The Gothic Me
21-03-2009, 04:06
Wrong, the worlds that Behemoth overran were pitiful in defense compared to what the Ultramarines had. The battlefleet of an entire Segmentum was present at the battle. In addtion the Ultramarines launched, suprise here folks, a surgical strike that took out the main hive ship, rending the other ships in disorder.

Well I suppose that makes sense then, but honestly, reading the fluff I think I can be forgiven for thinking the marines held of the nids single handed


The primarchs were present along with significant fleet, titan and navy assets. Are you even listening to what we are saying?

So what if the primarchs were there? I'm not sure you're listening to what I'm saying.


The new marine codex is full of fanboy tripe that takes numerous liberties with fluff. I would not take it seriously.

Well hearing this, I'm not sure we're really in disagreement, Marines are often portrayed as being both a small group of elites and a massive army capable of planet wide operations.

I think that your view that we can just disregard the marine codex's fluff is a little strange though. It doesn't support your point therefor it doesn't count?


So in other words you offered a set of battles of which only a single one was valid, and that battle was from a badly-written fanboy codex, contrary to the rest of the background.

Alright, first of all, as I said above, I don't see why the marine codex is somehow less valid because it supports my point.

Secondly, You were the one who demanded specific examples. What did you expect, me to go through every single piece of marine fluff ever written? Honestly I shouldn't have even brought up the cases I did, because in arguing general trends like I was, specific examples aren't that useful.


So you have the Eldar battle, we on the other hand have numerous depictions of Marines backed up heavily by Guard, Navy, Inq and Titans

But it's always the marines that make the difference in every one. And how come you get to lay claim to these 'numerous depiction' but don't have to go though every one and pick them apart like I apparently have to.

AngryAngel
21-03-2009, 04:14
Listen, if you want, If ya really need it. I'll go through in great detail just what stories I can easily find to justify our stance. I won't do it tonight, and this weekend I am busy. However if you say you want it. I'll give it to ya, and you can say how silly it is to your hearts content on monday. Would that please you ?

More over, even if I made the best case known to man, would you change your opinion ?

Lord_Crull
21-03-2009, 04:16
So what if the primarchs were there? I'm not sure you're listening to what I'm saying.



The primarchs were the oens controling the battle groups of the crusades, forces that included Titans, Army and Navy, for the third time.




Well hearing this, I'm not sure we're really in disagreement, Marines are often portrayed as being both a small group of elites and a massive army capable of planet wide operations.

I think that your view that we can just disregard the marine codex's fluff is a little strange though. It doesn't support your point therefor it doesn't count?



The codex breaks fluff repeatedly, 40k has multiple sources of diffrent fluff, many of which contidict each other. In most cases it is generaly a good idea to go with the smarter examples over the fanboy crap.

If you really badly want it enough then I dismiss it as propoganda for the Imperial masses.




But it's always the marines that make the difference in every one. And how come you get to lay claim to these 'numerous depiction' but don't have to go though every one and pick them apart like I apparently have to.

You want me to go and do so? Fine, right off th ebat.

Seige of Vraks, Dark angels and Red Scorpions support.

Taros, Raptors and Avenging sons support

Warriors of Ultramar, most of the fighting lying in the PDf and Guard regiments with marines providing a strongpoint.

Space Wolves at Garm, Titans and Guard support.

The Ultramar battle.

13th Black Crusade

Armegeddon

Damocles Crusade the Iron hands and White scars support.

Do you want me to go on?


Marines are the pin drop that makes the difference. If a Guard army and an Ork army are evenly matched and then we have a marine force that delivers the surgical strike that beheads the ork leadership. Then they make a difference. Those marines would die in a straight up fight against the ork horde. But that is not what they do. They go to wherever they are needed and help as best they can.

Sometimes in history a small, elite army used at the right moment can gain victory over a much larger foe.

Let me ask you something else, in this thread all parties has finally reached an understanding and compromise, then you show up and start the thing over again. It's trolling.

The Gothic Me
21-03-2009, 04:20
Listen, if you want, If ya really need it. I'll go through in great detail just what stories I can easily find to justify our stance. I won't do it tonight, and this weekend I am busy. However if you say you want it. I'll give it to ya, and you can say how silly it is to your hearts content on monday. Would that please you ?

More over, even if I made the best case known to man, would you change your opinion ?

Probably not, as I said, arguing specific examples isn't very helpful. I say there is a general trend, among both fluff and players, to usually depict Marines as a self sufficient, large force capable of fighting whole planet wide battles on their own, but fall back to them being a small team of commandos who work in support of other forces of the imperium when someone challenges this depiction, only to return to it later. In my eyes, the fact that such fnaboyish crap as the Marine codex (and we all agree it's bad) was able to become the primary marine fluff source (it is their codex after all) is at least some evidence of this trend i mention.


The codex breaks fluff repeatedly, 40k has multiple sources of diffrent fluff, many of which contidict each other. In most cases it is generaly a good idea to go with the smarter examples over the fanboy crap.

Wouldn't any source that supported my point brake fluff in your eyes? My whole point is that GW often switch between two different marine models, and the codex is a prime example of that.



You want me to go and do so? Fine, right off th ebat.

Seige of Vraks, Dark angels and Red Scorpions support.

Taros, Raptors and Avenging sons support

Warriors of Ultramar, most of the fighting lying in the PDf and Guard regiments with marines providing a strongpoint.

Space Wolves at Garm, Titans and Guard support.

The Ultramar battle.

13th Black Crusade

Armegeddon

Damocles Crusade the Iron hands and White scars support.

Do you want me to go on?

I know that there are example in the fluff were marines are actually described as just commandos, this doesn't mean there aren't times when they are not.


Marines are the pin drop that makes the difference. If a Guard army and an Ork army are evenly matched and then we have a marine force that delivers the surgical strike that beheads the ork leadership. Then they make a difference. Those marines would die in a straight up fight against the ork horde. But that is not what they do. They go to wherever they are needed and help as best they can.

My very point is that Marines are only presented as the pin when they need to remind people why they are allowed to be to OT. I would just as much expect to see examples in the fluff when guard are being totally destroyed by orks and the marines go in and turn it into a total victory. And I also don't think marines would die against Orks, the would pull on of their classic last stands, loose a few marines and totally wipe out the orks.



Let me ask you something else, in this thread all parties has finally reached an understanding and compromise, then you show up and start the thing over again. It's trolling.

More then a little uncalled for, it's not trolling to disagree with other people.

AngryAngel
21-03-2009, 04:38
Probably not, as I said, arguing specific examples isn't very helpful. I say there is a general trend, among both fluff and players, to usually depict Marines as a self sufficient, large force capable of fighting whole planet wide battles on their own, but fall back to them being a small team of commandos who work in support of other forces of the imperium when someone challenges this depiction, only to return to it later. In my eyes, the fact that such fnaboyish crap as the Marine codex (and we all agree it's bad) was able to become the primary marine fluff source (it is their codex after all) is at least some evidence of this trend i mention.

Ok, so what of the marine codex before the current one ? Or the one before that ? Or the Dark Angels codex ? They don't depict the marines world shattering, super bad a##es. So we ignore them, and just take the fan boy tripe of the new codex fluff as gospel instead ?

Yes that may be what they placed in the new book, they want to draw in little kiddies. Is that what marines are ? No, they are the elite strike force the scalpel of the imperium.

All we were arguing was that they are significant. You choose to disagree, so we argued. Even if we did make the best case for our point, it wouldn't matter to you, as you've said. Your not arguing against the GW marine love, your arguing marine players. Who in fact may love their armies, like you love your own. When you say its insignificant, people will argue the fact with you.

Alot of us have sunk alot of time and money into our forces. Some of us spent alot of time in the hobby and don't like their choice in armies being called, insignificant, useless or dismissable.

However, just to point out. Every army codex is full of proud, powerfull or otherwise propaganda filled stories. Such as the tau navy totally wasting a nid hive fleet without even a single ship damaged, let alone destroyed. Not even a space marine to be found to blame that one.

To be fair, it was a splinter fleet, that is still however way over the top.


As far as comments of marines being over the top strong now. They aren't, thats been discussed to death. They aren't in fact the uber stompy army of doom.

Cane
21-03-2009, 05:04
Getting back into the topic's thread title:

Space Marines are like, well, the Marines of modern military forces. For the USA they are like the MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) - they are basically their own self supporting military force whose mission is to be the first ones in a war zone until the meat of the military, the Army (in 40k: IG), takes over.

The Gothic Me
21-03-2009, 05:29
Ok, so what of the marine codex before the current one ? Or the one before that ? Or the Dark Angels codex ? They don't depict the marines world shattering, super bad a##es. So we ignore them, and just take the fan boy tripe of the new codex fluff as gospel instead ?

No, they should all be considered equally, all I meant is not to dismiss any sources just because they support one view or another


Yes that may be what they placed in the new book, they want to draw in little kiddies. Is that what marines are ? No, they are the elite strike force the scalpel of the imperium.
.
Again, we both don't like the fluff in the book, but don't just disregard it because it's bad. I agree that marines are a scalpel, and all I originally said is I don't like the significant body of both fluff and players (of which you obviously aren't a part) who want them to be the scalpel, hammer, anvil, bone saw and entire damn doctor/blacksmith (I only just realized how weird the hammer/anvil/scalpel mixed analogy is).


All we were arguing was that they are significant. You choose to disagree, so we argued. Even if we did make the best case for our point, it wouldn't matter to you, as you've said.

That's not what I meant, I meant that I didn't think my mind would be changed by constantly arguing specific cases from the fluff.


Your not arguing against the GW marine love, your arguing marine players. Who in fact may love their armies, like you love your own. When you say its insignificant, people will argue the fact with you.

Actually I originally meant a bit of both, but it's true that it was mostly player love. But not just general marine love; just that I don't like the group who don't like marines as elite commandos except when it justifies them getting better equipment and training. I love my guard alright, but wouldn't insist that they are elite commandos, but can still justify fighting large scale because they are so numerous. I'd hate that.


Alot of us have sunk alot of time and money into our forces. Some of us spent alot of time in the hobby and don't like their choice in armies being called, insignificant, useless or dismissable.

That's not really what I said. See above I think

But then, that's kind of my point. There's a trend for Marine to be stated as elite commandos (as you have argued) but then won't accept that this means they are not significant on their own on a large scale.


However, just to point out. Every army codex is full of proud, powerfull or otherwise propaganda filled stories. Such as the tau navy totally wasting a nid hive fleet without even a single ship damaged, let alone destroyed. Not even a space marine to be found to blame that one.

To be fair, it was a splinter fleet, that is still however way over the top.

Yes, but it's always the army doing abnormally well at what ever thing it is they usually do well anyway; The Tau use the excellent technology, the orks use the brute force, the eldar use their cleverness. It would be weird to see fluff pieces, even in the codex's, to see Orks winning a battle through clever tactics and misleading the enemy, or eldar/tau through sheer wait of numbers. The marine codex is the one where they go out of their role (in their case; elite commandos).



As far as comments of marines being over the top strong now. They aren't, thats been discussed to death. They aren't in fact the uber stompy army of doom.

On the table top? Yeah, they aren't op.

Spotty
21-03-2009, 05:41
Heh some of the titles of the stand alone marine view.

C.S Goto's "warrior coven" (kinda close call though)
Almost all of the soul drinkers novels
Dead sky black sun
a iron hands book that i can't remember the title of

oh and quite a few of the battles in the horus heresy are fought by just marines like the one in the book "fulgrim" in which they fight eldar(led by eldrad) on one of their maiden worlds
Unfortunately my library of Black Library books does not contain many marine stories but tends to collect alien and guard stories like crazy.
And the primarchs count as marines just as a guard commander would count as guard

The Gothic Me
21-03-2009, 06:09
Yeah, Black Library is a good example of the take on marines that really bugs me. Along with the Dawn of War games. I personally think they are all terrible pieces of fluff, treatment of marines aside, and I suspect plenty of people would agree (maybe with a certain few novels as exceptions). But I think they still show this few is pretty common, the Dawn of war games being a particularly good point, because I think they were, fluff wise, designed to give just the very basics of the fluff for people who aren't familiar with the setting. The fact that it portrays marines as fighting pitched battles against enemy grunts on the front line, without any support from, or in Dark Crusade and Soul storm actually fighting against, other imperial forces, shows that this idea of marines as a full army of their own rather then commandos it pretty deep rooted.

Lord_Crull
21-03-2009, 14:06
And the primarchs count as marines just as a guard commander would count as guard

Justified as the legions were much larger than chapters.



I know that there are example in the fluff were marines are actually described as just commandos, this doesn't mean there aren't times when they are not.



So what you are saying is that you can feel free to ignore all of my examples whie I have to accept all of your examples, many of whom are questionble fanboy tripe, as absolute fact?




More then a little uncalled for, it's not trolling to disagree with other people.

This thread was about to die and for once on Warseer people have started to reach a reasoned agreement, then you come out of the blue.




My very point is that Marines are only presented as the pin when they need to remind people why they are allowed to be to OT. I would just as much expect to see examples in the fluff when guard are being totally destroyed by orks and the marines go in and turn it into a total victory. And I also don't think marines would die against Orks, the would pull on of their classic last stands, loose a few marines and totally wipe out the orks.



Did you not read the multiple fluff sources I gave you? No, you did't, you ignored them.


Probably not, as I said, arguing specific examples isn't very helpful. I say there is a general trend, among both fluff and players, to usually depict Marines as a self sufficient, large force capable of fighting whole planet wide battles on their own, but fall back to them being a small team of commandos who work in support of other forces of the imperium when someone challenges this depiction, only to return to it later. In my eyes, the fact that such fnaboyish crap as the Marine codex (and we all agree it's bad) was able to become the primary marine fluff source (it is their codex after all) is at least some evidence of this trend i mention.



Given that the fact that even marine players, who despise the new codex, have freely provided many example for your use, you really come across as trolling.


Yeah, Black Library is a good example of the take on marines that really bugs me. Along with the Dawn of War games. I personally think they are all terrible pieces of fluff, treatment of marines aside, and I suspect plenty of people would agree (maybe with a certain few novels as exceptions). But I think they still show this few is pretty common, the Dawn of war games being a particularly good point, because I think they were, fluff wise, designed to give just the very basics of the fluff for people who aren't familiar with the setting. The fact that it portrays marines as fighting pitched battles against enemy grunts on the front line, without any support from, or in Dark Crusade and Soul storm actually fighting against, other imperial forces, shows that this idea of marines as a full army of their own rather then commandos it pretty deep rooted.

You expect me to take Dawn of War seriously?

Cythus
21-03-2009, 15:23
even in the horus heresy, the legions had support.

Take one of the victories of the crusade led by the Emporers children (at that time loyal)

minor SPOILER ALERT



the 100,000 SM led by Filgrim would take one of the floating cities and then let the guard hold it.

They conquered the planet in 2 months but suffered huge losses, due to the pace of the conflict


name a reliable peice of fluff in which the SM fight a planet wide campaign alone?

Commander titus
22-03-2009, 19:49
[QUOTE=PedroCantor;3387932]
To bee exact marines cant shoot there bolter 3 times as IG can with there special orders, that if anything is lesser training. QUOTE]

So here you're trying to suggest that Space Marines recieve less training than the Imperial Guard?

:wtf:


Guardsman are shooting a laser gun with no recoil and unlimited ammo, Marines are firing a rocket propelled grenade launcher. Also, 3 shot bolters would have a far greater impact on the tabletop than lasguns.

Exactly, if you ever Read the fluff of Space marine you wouldnt belive how much training they do, unbelivable, Secondly the IG dont recieve much training, half of them probally got bribed or forced (Concripts much?) sorry to say one marine out does 10 IG its just one of those things :chrome:

Oberst Viktor Morte
22-03-2009, 20:14
Agree to disagree?

40K is like Schrodinger's flufff. One fact can be both true and not true at the same time, and to each of you, that fluff is entirely factual. They intentionally leave fluff up in the air so as that each individual has the ability to determine what is the truth and what isn't by merit of their own judgement. Every single piece of fluff is propoganda. Every single one. None of it is reliable. It ultimately comes down to a arguement of opinion, and when you start telling other people that their opinion is wrong... well, that's just silly.

PapaDoc
22-03-2009, 23:12
1/10
Troll harder man, troll harder.

No way dude, this is too much fun.

Back to topic:

As is written, space marines are a relic. An outdated tool of the Great Crusade, which pushed in clearly defined directions, and used them in a concentrated way as shock troops in a kind of planet-to-planet blitz that overwhelmed their defenders. Those days are gone. In the ultimate Grimdark finality of things, in the 41st millennium, Space Marines are comparable to the largest German tanks at the end of WWII-- impressive, stronger than anything else on the field, but ultimately so few in number as to be meaningless.

Earlydawn
22-03-2009, 23:32
Repeat after me; tabletop balance has absolutely nothing to do with fluff balance. Say it, accept it, love it. You'll enjoy the universe a lot more.

There are so many examples of this that it's overwhelming. Prime example, Tyranids. Based on how Tyranids deploy their forces, if you're facing ANY kind of the monsterous creatures, you're generally already screwed - the hive fleet has arrived. Tabletop is a complete abstraction of the relative balance of races. Eldar are another example of this, as they are drastically superior to every race in the fluff, barring a few extraordinary examples (Daemon Lords, Chapter Masters, perhaps Necron Lords, etc). Tau are another good example of this. They are a very competent and competitive force that, by their own fluff, stand almost no chance on the macro-strategic level because their empire is the size of a fingernail.

40K battles represent dramatic conflicts between forces of artificial parity.

Treadhead_1st
22-03-2009, 23:55
I think the biggest problem is the Artwork.

Look at the 3rd and 4th Ed codexes - the artwork shows rank upon rank of Marines marching forwards into battle (cover of 3rd Ed book and the pic of the Raven Guard(?)deploying out of large, Orbital-Lander-type vehicles.

Also all the pics in the codexes show large-scale battles, but then they would - why would the codex feature supporting Guard etc?

The same also goes for the Guard - rank upon rank of man shoulder-to-shoulder (in the open) backed up by Tanks and Titans, whilst the enemy rush them. I like to think of my Guard are more modern-day forces (Abnett Guard, if you will) that actually advance by fire-and-maneuver, try to use terrain to their advantage, not advance Napoleonic/WW2 Russian style upon the foes.


As to the orignal topic:

Guard have always been the 1st Line Defence of the Imperium. That's always been stated. They assault, take and hold worlds en-masse. The Marines provide support (and IMO should only be present in squad/company size in all but the largest engagements fluff-wise - obviously chapter-presences at things like Aramgeddon, Cadia and so forth). Seeing a whole Chapter deploying to take on a Planet's worth of troops always makes me :wtf: for a moment.

Either way, both have their place in the Imperium. The Imperium might be able to get by with just Inquisition/Sisters/Guard (Sisters for Hulk-style missions and surgical strikes) but these will always be far more costly than Marine engagements. The Marines add a trump-card to the Imperium.

I just wish the Marines were more integrated into the Guard/Crusade balance more. Ie, a Warmaster should be able to rely on Marine support - they may not agree with his orders, but if they see a tactical objective they should go for it at the Warmaster's request. And likewise, be able to draw on IG support (without it being automatically assumed - after all, Marines frequently don't appreciate the...frailty of humans, which is why they were banned from leading Human armies after the Heresy, so if asking Guard to hold ground in a toxic swamp be told where to shove the idea). Basically, to use them as Special Forces, but on a campaign-wide level (whereas Schola Storm Troopers could be used as Special Forces on an engagement-wide level).

Nym
23-03-2009, 00:05
So much fanboyism in this thread it hurts my eyes.

It's been said several times but it's worth repeating : each and every marine gets a mini-rocket launcher, a power armor and frag / krak grenades. This stuff alone makes them better equiped than a Guard will ever be.

Starchild
23-03-2009, 04:38
Marines are firing a rocket propelled grenade launcher. Also, 3 shot bolters would have a far greater impact on the tabletop than lasguns.

Actually, bolt guns are more like micro versions of modern naval cannons: both weapons fire caseless, self-propelled, armour-piercing shells with mass-reactive detonators (rifling in the barrels is mainly for stabilization.) The only difference is the size of the rounds! ;)


I am getting the feeling that fluff wise on the gaming table marines are back at where they where in Rogue trader. That is up pumped punksters in power armour that are barely controllable, sent to die inn the worst places. This because with new codex it seams that the IG can outperform the marines in the best gear category, all the fancy tank weapons and hell guns. And in tactics and strategy, with all the nice to have platooned drills and commands.

No matter how many big guns the IG get, they'll never have power armour or S4 & T4. It's an interesting dichotomy: uber elite superhumans designed for surgical strikes, vs. generic footsloggers with lots of artillery. Neither army is necessarily better than the other; it's just that both are better at different tasks.

As for SMs being like they were in Rogue Trader, there's a lot of truth to that (since the weapons haven't changed that much), but they only got better over the editions. In 2nd ed. they got 3+ saves and rapid fire, now they get all sorts of deployment options, elite units, and wargear. IG are definitely getting a boost, but it doesn't mean they will outperform SMs. What looks incredible on paper doesn't always play that way in an actual game, especially when the opposing army can literally land right on top of you.

Oberst Viktor Morte
23-03-2009, 05:52
So much fanboyism in this thread it hurts my eyes.

It's been said several times but it's worth repeating : each and every marine gets a mini-rocket launcher, a power armor and frag / krak grenades. This stuff alone makes them better equiped than a Guard will ever be.
So much fanboyism in this post it hurts my eyes.

It's been said several times but it's worth repeating : each and every armoured company has enough firepower to take out a Space Marine chapter. This stuff alone makes them better equiped [sic] then a Marine will ever be.


See what I did there?

hawo0313
23-03-2009, 06:00
yes the guard may be able to bring the big guns but the space marines better standard armour and weaponry but guard have more equipment at thier disposal (guardsman do count as equipment right?)

Donblas
23-03-2009, 06:09
Bah its all about the inquisition they are the true power, your entire guard army/space marine meets planet killing missile nough said. OH and my dad can beat up your dad

hawo0313
23-03-2009, 06:21
Bah its all about the inquisition they are the true power, your entire guard army/space marine meets planet killing missile nough said. OH and my dad can beat up your dad

true Also I love the inquisition retinues and anyway why pick guard or marines where you can be a team that can have both.:)

Oberst Viktor Morte
23-03-2009, 06:57
yes the guard may be able to bring the big guns but the space marines better standard armour and weaponry but guard have more equipment at thier disposal (guardsman do count as equipment right?)You miss the point I was illustrating.

Read my post on the page before this one.

TheOverlord
23-03-2009, 07:42
The Fins were outnumbered nearly hundreds to one and had almost no tanks versus the thousands of tanks the Russians had.

Guess who won? Twice? :D

I'm just saying :)

Nakor
23-03-2009, 10:41
2. The background in the sm codex is insane, if you read it you would think that nobody else exists.

they exist alright. the ultramarines just killed them thats all.

AngryAngel
23-03-2009, 15:42
Shhhh The Overlord..don't say a much smaller force could ever win against near impossible odds.

Kburn
23-03-2009, 15:52
In 'tactical fluff', I can see why SM are worth much more than a guardsman. A normal guardsman can only be forced march for around a day, and even then, its already pushing their fatigue limit. They can operate in combat for around 4-6 hours before they either become fatigued or need resupply. They therefore need a supply train, and a constant stream of replacement soldiers to take over their posts. Cut that off and the isolated bunch dies.

A SM can march and fight for an unlimited time, they can eat almost anything and can survive months or years in the harshest conditions, they can fight isolated, etc.

Think about this situation for example. There are 8 gargant factories scattered deep within enemy territory, each heavily guarded, and each has an insane big mek which has to be killed too. How will the guard take the 8 factories out, and how long will it take? How will SM perform in that situation?

Combine the two together. Evil 'ey 'ard rok', supreme warboss of the waaagh has 8 gargant factories and a trillion orks, disciplined by his iron fist. How would SM/IG defeat this force on their own? Would your answer change if you had both SM and IG together?

isaac
23-03-2009, 16:22
Exterminatus!

Lord_Crull
23-03-2009, 17:19
In 'tactical fluff', I can see why SM are worth much more than a guardsman. A normal guardsman can only be forced march for around a day, and even then, its already pushing their fatigue limit. They can operate in combat for around 4-6 hours before they either become fatigued or need resupply. They therefore need a supply train, and a constant stream of replacement soldiers to take over their posts. Cut that off and the isolated bunch dies.

A SM can march and fight for an unlimited time, they can eat almost anything and can survive months or years in the harshest conditions, they can fight isolated, etc.

Think about this situation for example. There are 8 gargant factories scattered deep within enemy territory, each heavily guarded, and each has an insane big mek which has to be killed too. How will the guard take the 8 factories out, and how long will it take? How will SM perform in that situation?

Combine the two together. Evil 'ey 'ard rok', supreme warboss of the waaagh has 8 gargant factories and a trillion orks, disciplined by his iron fist. How would SM/IG defeat this force on their own? Would your answer change if you had both SM and IG together?

First it depnds hw much forces I have under my command. Also a trillion orks is a bit much for a two-bit warlord, Thraka himself did not have that much in the opening battles at Armegeddon.

Laser guided fanatic
23-03-2009, 17:41
So much fanboyism in this post it hurts my eyes.

It's been said several times but it's worth repeating : each and every armoured company has enough firepower to take out a Space Marine chapter. This stuff alone makes them better equiped [sic] then a Marine will ever be.


See what I did there?

So 1000 guardsmen can take out 1000 marines.

Hmm...

I think we have an extremly sanguine fanboy here.

Oberst Viktor Morte
23-03-2009, 19:44
So 1000 guardsmen can take out 1000 marines.

Hmm...

I think we have an extremly sanguine fanboy here.I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're have the inability to read or put together rudimentary thoughts to form complex thought. If either of these is true, I forgive you.

If not, this thread is only four pages long. It doesn't hurt to read those four pages and see what I've written previously.


Think about this situation for example.Well, the sensible thing would be to destroy the targets from orbit. And if you can't, then how can you land people on the planet in the first place?

Laser guided fanatic
23-03-2009, 19:50
I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're have the inability to read of put together rudimentary thoughts to form complex thought. If either of these is true, I forgive you.

If not, this thread is only four pages long. It doesn't hurt to read those four pages and see what I've written previously.

orly? I love people like you, 'Do things my way or i'll retort with some comment that has a chance of appearing witty!' Tbh though you were nearly there but the typos just made me laugh.
The thread is 6 pages long by the way and i won't read it just to pick up on some pointless fluff.

Panzerkanzler
23-03-2009, 19:54
Gnnn, the enormity of the sheer pointlessness of this thread flabbergasts me.

For the record, the Tyranids will eat you all.

No wai! We all know that the Tau will kill all Tyranids, as they have done so far :D But otherwise, about the flabbergasted part, I concur. Because the Tau can beat the combined forces of the guard and smurfs and win. Common knowledge really. ;)

Oberst Viktor Morte
23-03-2009, 20:25
orly? I love people like you, 'Do things my way or i'll retort with some comment that has a chance of appearing witty!' Tbh though you were nearly there but the typos just made me laugh.
The thread is 6 pages long by the way and i won't read it just to pick up on some pointless fluff.The entire thread I've been saying that everything is up to opinion, and ultimately, that's what this is. It's an argument of opinion, and you cannot truly tell someone that their opinion is wrong. Someone made a post blatantly supporting one side, so I changed their post to make it from the other side, to illustrate a point, which people only took at face value. I could have just as easily done this from the other side of the debate. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's opinion, but if someone is going to jump on me under false pretenses because they don't understand the point I'm trying to get across, then they have it coming.

Excuse me for putting four pages instead of six, but aside from that, what typos did I make? Or are you just trying to look smart?

Laser guided fanatic
23-03-2009, 20:30
The entire thread I've been saying that everything is up to opinion, and ultimately, that's what this is. It's an argument of opinion, and you cannot truly tell someone that their opinion is wrong. Someone made a post blatantly supporting one side, so I changed their post to make it from the other side, to illustrate a point, which people only took at face value. I could have just as easily done this from the other side of the debate. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's opinion, but if someone is going to jump on me under false pretenses because they don't understand the point I'm trying to get across, then they have it coming.

Excuse me for putting four pages instead of six, but aside from that, what typos did I make? Or are you just trying to look smart?

Well if you really want to know you wrote you're instead of you and of instead of or. Sorry for misinterpreting what you said.:):):)

Oberst Viktor Morte
23-03-2009, 20:32
Well if you really want to know you wrote you're instead of you and of instead of or. Sorry for misinterpreting what you said.:):):)

Huh, corrected the 'of' to 'or', but missed the 'you' thing. Thanks.

Also, sorry for being a jackass. I tend to do that, IRL and on the interwebs. No hard feelings.

Cythus
23-03-2009, 20:47
. It's an argument of opinion, and you cannot truly tell someone that their opinion is wrong.

sorry to do this, but if my opinion is that all not-whites should be torturedfor all their lives, you can't even try to tell me its wrong?

Oberst Viktor Morte
23-03-2009, 20:51
sorry to do this, but if my opinion is that all not-whites should be torturedfor all their lives, you can't even try to tell me its wrong?

I can disagree with it, but I can't tell you that it's wrong. I can say that according to my ethical standpoint it is morally wrong, but I cannot tell you that your opinion is factually wrong.

Laser guided fanatic
23-03-2009, 20:55
Not the opinion is right or wrong argument again we had this a few days ago.

RichBlake
23-03-2009, 21:26
In 'tactical fluff', I can see why SM are worth much more than a guardsman. A normal guardsman can only be forced march for around a day, and even then, its already pushing their fatigue limit. They can operate in combat for around 4-6 hours before they either become fatigued or need resupply. They therefore need a supply train, and a constant stream of replacement soldiers to take over their posts. Cut that off and the isolated bunch dies.

A SM can march and fight for an unlimited time, they can eat almost anything and can survive months or years in the harshest conditions, they can fight isolated, etc.


Uhh Marines need Ammo too you know! You're right about the fatigue but the supplies is entirely contextual. Both sides can, with access to space transport, drop supplies right into the front line. Also both have access to aircraft (though through in navy in the case of the Guard). The Space Marines would be better at using aircraft supply lines, due to superior pilots and overall control over their own aircraft. However if it was a ground based supply line I'd go for the Guard every time. You need men to spare to protect the convoys. If I take a company of Guardsmen to protect a convoy thats roughly 335 Guardsmen. Any sizeable task force can make do without 335 Guardsmen. If I even gave 10 Marines to protect a convoy that would seriously take away from the front line fighting forces.


Think about this situation for example. There are 8 gargant factories scattered deep within enemy territory, each heavily guarded, and each has an insane big mek which has to be killed too. How will the guard take the 8 factories out, and how long will it take? How will SM perform in that situation?

Space Marines would land directly on top of the facilities, slaughter everyone inside, including the mek, before blowing up the factory. The Imperial Guard would advance through the enemy lines slowly but surely destroying every ork in their path.

Alternatively the Navy would obliterate the factories from orbit :)

Remember there are plenty of things to consider here, the Space Marines sound better suited but if these Orks are no threat because there's no chance of them leaving an already ork held planet what does it matter if it takes 5 or 15 years to accomplish? What if the Marines are needed more on an Imperial Held planet that is under attack?

What most people forget is you REALLY need to look at the bigger picture. If I waste 2 million Guardsmen on achieving something 10 Marines could have done I've still used my resources better then using those 10 marines.



Combine the two together. Evil 'ey 'ard rok', supreme warboss of the waaagh has 8 gargant factories and a trillion orks, disciplined by his iron fist. How would SM/IG defeat this force on their own? Would your answer change if you had both SM and IG together?

Something like this couldn't be done with Space Marines alone without significant force deployments. Marines do not take and hold ground that effectively. In a situation facing a planet full of Orks the Guard would be better suited to do it alone then Space Marines ever would.

HOWEVER as you point out the most effective way would be to combine the two, which is what usually happens. Just remember though that since there are millions of guardsmen for every space marine that the SMs aren't always available.


yes the guard may be able to bring the big guns but the space marines better standard armour and weaponry but guard have more equipment at thier disposal (guardsman do count as equipment right?)

Yes but as I've said there are millions of Guardsmen for every marine. In a stand up fight who'd win, 2 million Guardsmen or a single marine :p

The point is marines target specific high value enemy targets, take them out, then run off. Space Marines perform at their worst when forced into a meat grinder type conflict. Numbers can always trump equipment if there's enoguh of it.

Also something to remember is they have different equipment. Both armies have land based transports, but the Guard one has more guns. Also the Guard one has high front armour, low side armour and only 1 exit. The Rhino has lowish front and side armour and has 3 exits.

Neith can truly be said to be "better". The Chimera is better suited to deploying troops into a static position further up the line and then laying down covering fire, the Rhino is better for speeding towards the enemy and hurling Marines at them.

The Guard lack a transport like the Land Raider (i.e nearly impossible to kill) but the Space Marines lack a "real" Battle Tank. Yes they have the Predator but that's a light tank at best.


So much fanboyism in this post it hurts my eyes.

It's been said several times but it's worth repeating : each and every armoured company has enough firepower to take out a Space Marine chapter. This stuff alone makes them better equiped [sic] then a Marine will ever be.


See what I did there?

Thats a bit of fanboyism on your part there. As a Guard player I can safely say an armoured company could not take out a chapter of space Marines.

Lets look at a typical armoured company shall we?

Leman Russ Vanquisher (Command Tank)

Leman Russ (Command Tank, Squad 1)
Leman Russ (Squad 1)
Leman Russ (Squad 1)

Leman Russ (Command Tank, Squad 2)
Leman Russ (Squad 2)
Leman Russ (Squad 2)

Leman Russ (Command Tank, Squad 3)
Leman Russ (Squad 3)
Leman Russ (Squad 3)

Leman Russ (Command Tank, Squad 4)
Leman Russ (Squad 4)
Leman Russ (Squad 4)

Leman Russ Demolisher (Command Tank, Squad 5)
Leman Russ Demolisher (Squad 5)
Leman Russ Demolisher (Squad 5)

Leman Russ Demolisher (Command Tank, Squad 6)
Leman Russ Demolisher (Squad 6)
Leman Russ Demolisher (Squad 6)



Firstly bear in mind this is based off the old fluff about armoured companies. The new "Emperor's Fist Tank Company" presented in the Apocalypse rulebook is only 10 tanks, not 19.

You honestly think 19 leman russes is enough to take out 1000 Marines plus all their tanks, tranports, thunderhawk gunships etc?

Armoured Regiments are used and wasted just as easily as any other Guard Regiment in large conflicts, last time I checked it's rare to see a Space Marine chapter decimated in a single conflict.




Also if I remember rightly the original poster was talking about tabletop gaming, in which case I'd disagree. The Imperial Guard in the next codex wont have "better" equipment, it will have "different" equipment (see the comments on rhino vs chimera above). Also they are not better trained, sure orders can make them do funky things but that represents the reliance on good commanders the Guard have. You throw a Tactical Squad into a conflict and they can operate fine on their own, do the same with 10 Guardsmen and they'll be largely unsure what to do (unless the Sergeant is awesome).

You could give EVERYONE an orders system (like Battlefleet gothic) but it really doesn't suit some armies. Orders give the impression of some commander standing on a hill shouting at people to do things, the entire force rotating around one man. With out an order system it implies squads are doing whatever the hell they want mainly.

isaac
23-03-2009, 21:46
Space Marines are Marines. They are the extremely mobile and very elite power fist of the empire. They can respond quickly, they have their own supply lines, have superior equipment and superior training. They quell rebellions, serve as the armored point, strike first and are the champions of the imperium.

If Space Marines are the fist, the Imperial Guard is the Hammer. Though it takes a while to prep, swings slowly and shatters on impact. The masses of humble guardsmen die in droves and defend the imperium. Though weak individually, they alone can hold the empire together and defend the common man.

Together, they form the empire of man's defenses. Without either of them, the empire would fall.

laudarkul
23-03-2009, 21:57
Imperial Guard is the human part of the Imperium and the shield...SM are the heroic part of the Imperium and the scalpel...GK are the unseen part of the Imperium and the laser scalpel...All those forces protect the Imperium of mankind together...
Whould you like to know more??? Go and buy a IG codex/DH codex/WH codex;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
24-03-2009, 02:44
Think about this situation for example. There are 8 gargant factories scattered deep within enemy territory, each heavily guarded, and each has an insane big mek which has to be killed too. How will the guard take the 8 factories out, and how long will it take? How will SM perform in that situation?

Combine the two together. Evil 'ey 'ard rok', supreme warboss of the waaagh has 8 gargant factories and a trillion orks, disciplined by his iron fist. How would SM/IG defeat this force on their own? Would your answer change if you had both SM and IG together?

I suppose Space Marines could take the first one through diversionary tactics and teleporting Termies with demolition equipment. It'd require several Companies' combined and synergetic efforts in my opinion, including the First, Second (speedy ones, right?), and Tenth, as well as some Battle Companies, as those Gargant factories would only appear after a large number of Orks had assembled; the only way it wouldn't is if the main Waaaagh! was busy mauling a hive city somewhere and those factories weren't mobile (Orky know-wotz and all that, never know what they'll come up with).

But the second would best be done via a combined effort after incredibly heavy orbital bombardment, or failing that (lacking space superiority), regular artillery and air strikes. A trillion Orks in one place would be difficult, however, and would require a massive investment in men, materiel, and promethium (to burn the spores). Such a force would require a virtual Crusade.


Exterminatus!

The only way to be sure.


Also a trillion orks is a bit much for a two-bit warlord, Thraka himself did not have that much in the opening battles at Armegeddon.

It'd make more sense if he did, rather than the paltry millions I remember being mentioned. He brought together a lot of Waaaghs! to make Armageddons 2 and 3 happen.


Not the opinion is right or wrong argument again we had this a few days ago.

Yeah I know, right?

Pooky
24-03-2009, 04:20
To all those who think that either SM or IG are not necessary/ less useful, think about this... THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE RIGHT JOB!

You don't use a hammer to cut out a cancer. Conversely you don't use a laser to bang in a nail. The SM have their roles to play and so do the IG. Both are needed. Besides, aren't we (SM and IG) all on the same side? :P

sabre4190
24-03-2009, 05:24
To all those who think that either SM or IG are not necessary/ less useful, think about this... THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE RIGHT JOB!

You don't use a hammer to cut out a cancer. Conversely you don't use a laser to bang in a nail. The SM have their roles to play and so do the IG. Both are needed. Besides, aren't we (SM and IG) all on the same side? :P

Extremely well put.

To add on to this, think of numbers. there are only so many space marines, and they could never defend multiple worlds with solid battle lines. They strike hard, they strike fast. They have highly concentrated firepower and abilities. Lets say, for the sake of numbers, not fluff, that a squad of marines can have the same firepower as a platoon of guard. Sometimes, you need the bodies the guard has in order to cover that much ground and to defend worlds for extended periods of time. But sometimes, that same amount of firepower is needed in a strike force, to do something very specific. Like, take out a power supply way deep in enemy territory. It would be impossible to deploy that power in such a way. Thats where there are space marines, so they can be that strike force. As such, they are better armed, better trained, and incredibly more mobile.

IG may have more big guns and raw power, but thats because they are static enough to bring it to bear. You cant see Space Marines deep striking in a Baneblade (although that would be terrifying).

Overall, the IG can work without space marines. Its going to be a MUCH tougher job, but they could dish out alot of power. The space marines need the guard to defend worlds while they strike really quickly. Space marines dont exist for extended battles or wars of attrition. They are worth too much for that. The imperium needs someone for that, the guard. Both coexist, and the imperium utilizes both as part of greater campaigns. Space Marines and Imperial Guard actually get even cooler when you imagine them as part of the same campaign.

Oberst Viktor Morte
24-03-2009, 20:20
I give up on this thread.

Cythus
24-03-2009, 20:29
I give up on this thread.

why, becuase sabre 4190 made a well reasoned and argued point?

we're not saying SM are the ultimate force of pawnage, only that it would be very difficult for the imperium to cover their roles if they were lost and that they have relivance in the larger scheme of things.

Seargent K
24-03-2009, 20:50
In my opinion it's simple.I agree with Sabred4190,Imperium without Space Marines=nothing,Imperium without Imperial guard=nothing.Everyone is needed for tke mankind's survive.Each army would struggle alone.That's what I think.

Oberst Viktor Morte
24-03-2009, 20:57
why, becuase sabre 4190 made a well reasoned and argued point?

we're not saying SM are the ultimate force of pawnage, only that it would be very difficult for the imperium to cover their roles if they were lost and that they have relivance in the larger scheme of things.
No, it's because I'll make posts and then people will take them out of reference to everything else I've said in this thread, and then assume that I'm trying to bash their opinions. Ironically, that's what just happened. :p

Cane
24-03-2009, 20:57
From strictly a numbers perspective I'd think the Imperium would last a lot longer without Space Marines then they would without their billions upon billions of Imperial Guardsmen. In this sense the IG entity is a lot more valuable than the SM entity, however the very training and creation of a single Space Marine equals/exceeds many Guardsmen. Although one could argue that the resources used for Space Marines could then be used for IG and vice versa.

Ultimately both are needed for the Imperium to maintain their status quo and both would be useless alone since they are still members of the larger Imperium team (that includes the Navy and mind-boggling logistics).

isaac
24-03-2009, 21:03
The Imperium would still shrink if the only the IG were around. The biggest problem of the IG they are slow moving and getting into place. They in no way could respond quickly like the SM forces.

Lord_Crull
24-03-2009, 21:29
No, it's because I'll make posts and then people will take them out of reference to everything else I've said in this thread, and then assume that I'm trying to bash their opinions. Ironically, that's what just happened. :p

Then don't phrase it like that, if everybody on the thread is starting to think you are trolling then maybe you need to revise how you post stuff.