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Mystic Skink
12-12-2005, 17:47
My question is this: What direction are the Eldar taking?

I've seen a number of rumors, but they don't really get at the questions I have about the basic eldar.

I've had little toy space elves since Rogue Trader, and frankly, I'm hoping for some big 'changes' in the new codex. Things like moving the Avatar to special character, and adding a warrior commander give me great hope for the codex feeling 'complete' and uniform.

So here I am, with my fishing rod trying to see if someone like Brimstone or Engle has some insight.


Rules and general feel of the eldar:

Are they going to put an end to this 'guardian meat-sheild' business?

Are they going to keep Storm Guardians fully supported and part of the core?

Are they going to 'do something' with Shruiken weapons?

Are they going to 'do something' with eldar heavy weapons like the scatter laser?

Are they going to make Jetbikes a more appealing army entry?

Are they thinking at all about making Jetbikes troop choices?

Are they going to make Swooping Hawks, Dire Avengers, Shining Spears and Warp Spiders more appealing army entries?

Will they include a Harlequin unit?

Are they going to make the Fire Prism a more appealing army entry?

Are they going to continue the trend of embracing psychic powers, and follow it to its logical conclusion by having Farseers and warlocks that are psychic heavyweights? Frankly, I think putting a Farseer on the table should as scary as putting down a Leman Russ or a Demon Prince.

How is the wargear section going to weigh in? Chaos sized? IG sized?

Will Wraithguard be slightly more appealing?


Models:

Are they going to update the Jetbike? Update the rider to fit the eldar 'guardian' look? Update the bike to look sleeker/sharper/modern? Make it a plastic kit to go along with more appealing rules?

Will they be making a unified Guardian Defender/Storm Guardian/Dire Avenger plastic sprue set? A final and authoritative mold cut?

Will they re-cut the Vyper Mold and update the Driver and gunner?

Is there any chance of another farseer?

Will someone apply some green or yellow paint to the white mouthpieces of the Striking Scorpion display models so people will stop making rabbit comments?


Honestly, I *really* think WH40K needs rock solid updates on the core races like Eldar and Orks to end this horrible Space Marine glut that IMO isn't doing the hobby any favors in the long run.

Tastyfish
12-12-2005, 17:56
I wonder if they will draw on the Wraithgate mechanics of epic and USF. Would certainly fit the feel of the Eldar well if you wanted to make them unique and make a big distinction between them and lighter, faster Tau. Having them appear all over the place out of Portals and the like

Warp Zero
12-12-2005, 18:14
An Eldar and Ork revamp is so long overdue. I have no idea what line of thought had made GW think that it was okay to let it go this long.

I agree with Mystic Skink on the points he made. Eldar need a unique style of play that fits with their fluff. And like all armies, they need each unit to be a viable choice to take. An overall balance to all the things that plague the old codex. Whatever it may be, whether its nerfing one thing and boosting another.

I'm hoping whatever I see when it is released will indeed fix these issues. In my mind....and I know I could be wrong....GW has plenty of playtesting sources to provide them with info, so the new rules should be pretty cool right?

I'm trying to stay optomistic, but man...the legacy of the Shuriken Catapult has me wary.

Orbital
12-12-2005, 18:54
Great questions! Fun to talk things over before a new codex comes, huh? I'll give you my biased-perspective, $0.02 answers for what they're worth...

The first thing I want to advise you about is this: In this crazy internet, people play really fast and loose with data and call it "fact". The proper use of the word "confirmed" is when a representative of Games Workshop, acting in an official capacity, makes a comment meant for publication. Nothing else qualifies. What's more, be sure the quote you're reading is accurate (and that ISN'T a given, believe me). Though it's not really fun to hear this, you really can't be 100% sure until you see it on the GW website in Sneak Peeks, so keep your wits about you.

Due to the fact that there's almost no official word on upcoming Eldar releases at present (and GW plays their cards real close to their chest), I'll try to respond constructively to your questions.


Are they going to put an end to this 'guardian meat-sheild' business?

Though I can't say I'm sure what you mean here, I think the problem was fixed in the 4th ed 40k rules, where infantry could no longer screen units behind them. Therefore, if you want to shoot past 100000 Guardians and try to nail the Dark Reapers in the back, all you have to do is pass a leadership test (or, if you're a vehicle, just go ahead and fire).


Are they going to keep Storm Guardians fully supported and part of the core?

If by that you mean "Will Storm Guardians continue to be an Eldar troop choice?", I bet my money on "yes". They've been around since ever, and the models were just recently released (during the EoT campaign). Also, why remove them? I have never heard anyone complain about them.


Are they going to 'do something' with Shruiken weapons?

That's a tall question because it ranges from the lowly pistol to the only-slightly-less-lowly cannon. Seeing as a chief complaint about Defender Guardians is that the basic weapon only has a 12" range, I imagine something will probably happen.


Are they going to 'do something' with eldar heavy weapons like the scatter laser?

This question is a little vague. There are Starcannons, Bright Lances, Eldar Missile Launchers, Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannons and even lighter, infantry-based Heavy Weapons such as the Reaper Launcher... and I've read tons of suggestions from players for every single one. Jervis Johnson of Games Workshop has identified that he believes the Starcannon has some problems, and a lot of people complain to high heaven about the Shuriken Cannons, so I wouldn't be surprised to see changes in the rules for them.

If you were referring to the models, they've already been "refreshed", as you can see in the new Wave Serpent model, which comes with a Heavy Weapon sprue.


Are they going to make Jetbikes a more appealing army entry?

No word. Just rumors.


Are they thinking at all about making Jetbikes troop choices?

No word. I, personally, doubt it... because why do it (especially when bikes aren't normally a troop choice for other armies)?


Are they going to make Swooping Hawks, Dire Avengers, Shining Spears and Warp Spiders more appealing army entries?

I haven't heard anything on this, even rumors... except for the Dire Avengers. As they are intended to be the most common of all Aspects (and clearly aren't), I've been told some stuff that I've been asked not to repeat about how they'll perform. In other words, I'd say changes are likely.


Will they include a Harlequin unit?

Everyone keeps talking about Harlequins (including some GW folks), and it's clear that a lot of us WANT to see them somehow present in the 4th ed 40k world. I, personally, think it's doubtful; the sculpts are very old and the current rules for Harlequins are extremely old. Seeing as this is just a niche army and not likely to be brought up to the level of a "standard" 40k army, I don't know if anyone at GW actually has the time to do the work involved in "modernizing" them. It'd be a shame to see them fade off, but I get the sense that might happen.


Are they going to make the Fire Prism a more appealing army entry?

Is it not appealing?

No official word I'm aware of. I actually wouldn't be surprised if this tank disappears from the roster.


Are they going to continue the trend of embracing psychic powers, and follow it to its logical conclusion by having Farseers and warlocks that are psychic heavyweights? Frankly, I think putting a Farseer on the table should as scary as putting down a Leman Russ or a Demon Prince.

The fluff does say that the Eldar are the most powerful psykers in the universe, so it stands to reason that (if GW wants to continue with that mythology) they will need to be upgraded in order to compete with Librarians and Zoenthropes. No official word on it. I'd like to add, however, that an Eldar HQ should be compared to other armies' HQs to determine if it's powerful enough. Comparing it to a tank or demon might be comparing apples to oranges.


How is the wargear section going to weigh in? Chaos sized? IG sized?

I haven't heard a single word about this.


Will Wraithguard be slightly more appealing?

Just slightly? Will you be disappointed if they make them enormously more appealing? :)

Just kidding... I have only heard that Wraithguard will get new models. I don't know anything about if they'll have new rules.


Are they going to update the Jetbike? Update the rider to fit the eldar 'guardian' look? Update the bike to look sleeker/sharper/modern? Make it a plastic kit to go along with more appealing rules?

I'd like to think yes. I'd also think it's likely, as GW has been trying to transition the Eldar model line from the obviously 2nd-ed "Conehead" look to the more detailed, sleeker 4th ed look. I haven't even heard an unsubstantiated rumor about this yet, though.


Will they be making a unified Guardian Defender/Storm Guardian/Dire Avenger plastic sprue set? A final and authoritative mold cut?

A lot of people talk about this and say that they SHOULD, but I have yet to see one bit of credible evidence pointing to the fact that they WILL.


Will they re-cut the Vyper Mold and update the Driver and gunner?

The Vyper is incredibly popular and probably won't change, and the pilot/gunner aren't so much like the Jetbike driver that it's a given they'll be resculpted. If I had to guess, I'd say no... but, as usual, I have zero official word on this and haven't even heard a rumor yet which went beyond a word or two.


Is there any chance of another farseer?

I'd have to say no, though that's just conjecture. The Farseer will likely become more customizable, and therefore you could take two and have them both kitted out very differently... but a new Farseer... I don't even know how that would work. If you were referring to the model, I think there are already around five Farseer models that can be acquired either off the shelf or by mail order, and some of them are quite new... so I don't think they'll revamp those.

I realize that most of my comments are more "opinion" than "fact", but I didn't want to give you the impression that more fact is available than there really is. I'd suggest you keep an eye out for photos coming from big 40k events (Games Day, Conflict, etc) and watch the GW "Sneak Peeks" page to see what pops up.

Venkh
12-12-2005, 20:40
If we look at the codexes released so far, we have seen a real effort by the design team to make all of the unit entries in the list attractive.
The other strong feature is the traits system, this allows players to really home in on a theme and create radically different forces from the same list.

These factors benefit everybody, GW dont end supporting model lines that dont sell and players get to build hugely rewarding themed armies.

I would expect that GW will continue this good design policy into the new Eldar codex and really cant wait for more news to come through.

So i expect a more flexible list with few, if no redundant unit entries, i would expect the psychic theme to be more strongly emphasised and would really like to see this carried through to more units and vehicles:chrome:

Underway
12-12-2005, 20:50
Some info that was not discussed I remember reading an interview with Phil (I belive he's the lead on the eldar project), wherein he states that those space marine librarians are getting all upety thinking they are the final word on psychic powers. Just wait for the eldar! This was done right after the newest SM Codex and was in response to a question on the power of the librarians in that book.

So I think its safe to say the eldar will have a renewed psychic dominance. As for other rumours...

Avatar becoming able to take on a Greater Deamon in Combat. Much more up-powered version. Special character or not he will be tough.

Other models will be balanced out so that there is more choice in the list and your choices will be harder to make, aka warp spiders will be tough to chose over scorpions and vice versa.

I expect to see a well balanced list that can compete in todays 4th ed environment.

Oh and bonesinger and autarch models are in production. Woo hoo more character choices!!

Orbital
12-12-2005, 20:55
Oh and bonesinger and autarch models are in production.

Whats your source on that one?

Sildani
12-12-2005, 20:58
Let's see what I can add....

New plastic Wraithlord that will look like a small Forge World Revenant Titan and, rumor says, was sculpted by Jes Goodwin himself...

All-plastic Dire Avengers...

New plastic War Walkers, with an enclosed cabin and a transparent plastic energy shield bit...

Possible all-plastic Fire Prism...

New multi-part metal Rangers...

A limited selection of metal Autarch models...

A new Bonesinger...

Possibly, new models for the Howling Banshees, Dark Reapers, and Warp Spiders...

Shuriken catapult range increased to 18"...

And Guardians have been playtested with a 4+ armor save.

Well, that's all I can remember, for now...

Orbital
12-12-2005, 21:11
Hey Sildani... where did you hear about the all-plastic Fire Prism? And how did you hear about the playtesting of 4+ save Guardians?

Not challenging you... just want to know where that comes from!

Sildani
12-12-2005, 21:19
Eh, Karhedron talked about a rumor he heard about the Fire Prism... and I think he also talked about the Guardians, but that might have been Dark_Angel, as well.

Karhedron
12-12-2005, 22:01
Eh, Karhedron talked about a rumor he heard about the Fire Prism... and I think he also talked about the Guardians, but that might have been Dark_Angel, as well.
No fair Sildani, you stole my thunder! :cries:

;)

Yes, I am the source of rumours about the Fire Prism and Guardians with 4+ saves. Please note that this does not mean either of these things is guaranteed. I have several sources, some of which are more reliable than others and some of which are more recent too.

The all-plastic Fire Prism rumour was received from someone in the know at the studio but this was around 6 months ago. At the time, my source described it as something that was being considered. I have not heard anymore about this in my more recent quests for info so I would consider this as still just a rumour (although most of the other stuff Sildani mentions I can confirm).

As for the Guardians, my info here comes from one of the playtesters. They got sent a request for feedback on how Guardians performed with a 4+ save. However a lot of playtesting goes on and not every change that gets tried actually makes it ito the codex (those who remember the evolution of the TAR will recall it went through at least 3 online iterations before being printed in WD and then revised again for 4th edition).

Sildani
12-12-2005, 22:32
Well, whaddya know? I got something right!

heretic
13-12-2005, 04:25
years ago I wanted to do a SH craftworld army, but the bike rules were and are just not worth it...

Warp Zero
13-12-2005, 09:14
Are they going to put an end to this 'guardian meat-sheild' business?


Though I can't say I'm sure what you mean here, I think the problem was fixed in the 4th ed 40k rules, where infantry could no longer screen units behind them. Therefore, if you want to shoot past 100000 Guardians and try to nail the Dark Reapers in the back, all you have to do is pass a leadership test (or, if you're a vehicle, just go ahead and fire).


I believe what Skink is talking about is the tendancy to use Guardian Defenders as shields for a heavy weapons team. As an Eldar player, I've had my fair share of using this tactic too.

Due to the 12" range of the catapult, Guardians tended to get one turn of shooting. The original idea being that, they shoot, then a coordinated attack by nearby on hand close-combat aspect specialists sweep in to finish the job before the guardians get assaulted themselves. But its very hard to set up because the close-combat specialists tended to be target first and chipped away at before they get to do their job. Your Banshees and Scorpions unit will be down to about 2-3 members by the time the cross the field with the Guardians and are close enough for the Guardians to finally shoot.

The way this was fixed was having the close combat specialists delivered in a more safer way.....via Wave Serpent. But with 4th edition rules, you can't assault on the same turn your vehicle has moved and your troops disembarked. So, if you want your Wave Serpent mounted Banshees/Scorpions to attack on the same turn your Guardians had shot....they gotta be parked in close the intended enemy unit a turn BEFORE the Guardians run up and shoot. Again tricky, gives extra time for the Wave Serpent to be popped by an anti-vehicle weapon. The alternative being that the Wave Serpent arrives on the same turn the Guardians shoot, in which case...the Banshees/Scorpions disembark and wait till next turn to make their assault (which was suppose to keep the guardians from being assaulted). But since they gotta wait a turn, the guardians get assaulted and the CC units get shot at.

So what else do Guardians do then if not the coordinated attacks with their CC aspect brothers and sisters? They sit around and be ablative armor for a starcannon team is what they do. This is the "meat shield" in which Skink is talking about. The Star Cannon crew can go on turn after turn of shooting. They survive by having Guardians take the hits aimed at the unit. Until an enemy unit makes it in range to assault my Guardians, they usually survive a long time till they get taken out. Especially because they have Guardians sitting around them and because of the Warlock with Conceal. :)

Do my Guardians every get to shoot? Yeah....usually after they've been chipped down to 1 or 2 plus the 2 Heavy Weapon guys. By then, the enemy is in 12" range and I shoot.

Spell_of_Destruction
13-12-2005, 11:34
Are they going to make Swooping Hawks, Dire Avengers, Shining Spears and Warp Spiders more appealing army entries?


Dude, Warp Spiders are probably the best aspect since 4th ed came out. They are insanely good against hordes and they're even decent against marines.


I am hopeful that the "Eldar Guard" direction of 3rd ed is going to be reversed and that there will be a greater emphasis placed on aspects. Giving Guardians a 4+ save along with an improved shuriken catapult along with upping the price would go some way to bringing an end to the guardian horde armies we have become accustomed to.

There are specific changes I would like but this doesn't seem to be the thread for that so I'll leave it there.

Orcdom
13-12-2005, 12:48
years ago I wanted to do a SH craftworld army, but the bike rules were and are just not worth it...

they are worth it but just barely witht he current rules, so far for my SH Eldar army i have:
1 seer on bike
2 - 6 jetbike squads with 1 warlock each
2 vypers with starcannons
2 vypers with 2 shurican cannons ea
2 vypers with lances
1 storm squad/fusion guns/warlock in serpent/linked starcannons
1 seer on foot along for the ride
1 night spinner - soon to be swapped out for a falcon (i need the heavier firepower)

in my SH army nothing goes to war without a ride.

i dont get to play that often, and i have played 3 games with them and 1 win 2 losses, one loss would have been a draw if it wasnt for the last weapon of the game to drop a vyper it was that close.

its not a army that allows for mistakes, my 2 losses were both against necrons which is hard enough to play against the way it is, without alot of starcannons and power weapons.

but all in all its a good army.

Steve

heretic
13-12-2005, 16:24
maybe after the eldar codex in 07 I'll take another look at it :cool:

Orbital
13-12-2005, 16:39
What? They're releasing one in 2006 AND 2007?? That's awesome!! ;)

Underway
13-12-2005, 16:59
@Orbital - the source for the Bonesingers and Autarch I unfortunatly cannot say, I understand your requirement for a solid lead, I however must protect my sources.

The interview with Phil was published on Dakkadakka sometime ago (regarding increase psychic goodness for eldar).

I do have confirmed from the extended model release schedule that there are plastic Wraithlords and warwalkers (possibly the same boxed set, and you make one or the other aka CC termies or regular termies).

As for the new Eldar rangers I have no idea whether they are plastic or metal. I personaly think given where GW is headed with plastic that these models will be plastic. Like the Veteran SM set etc...

I would also not be surprised if they released a Dire Avenger plastic sprue as well like the BT crusaders sprue. Extra Aspect warrior bits to modify your basic plastic guardians, or to add to other aspects.

I can also independantly confirm the playtest of 4+ guardians. The logic behind this was that an improved save for the guardians would not require a fix of the shuricat. It also was a little better on the fluff side regarding guardians now have better armour than Dark eldar warriors, as Craftworld eldar are supposed to be better armoured than the Dark Eldar all round.

Sai-Lauren
13-12-2005, 17:14
Re: Plastic Fire Prism.
Not saying it is going to happen, but if it did, I would reckon there's good odds on the focusing crystal being clear tinted plastic like the Monolith power crystal.

Orbital
13-12-2005, 17:24
@Orbital - the source for the Bonesingers and Autarch I unfortunatly cannot say, I understand your requirement for a solid lead, I however must protect my sources.

Understood. You gotta do what you gotta do.

It's actually something of a no-brainer to establish the thing about the Bonesinger, as it's mentioned in the 4th ed rulebook... and that kind of thing doesn't happen by accident!

heretic
13-12-2005, 17:26
What? They're releasing one in 2006 AND 2007?? That's awesome!! ;)

I highly doubt it'll be released on schedule

Orbital
13-12-2005, 17:43
I highly doubt it'll be released on schedule

There's no schedule for it to not keep, actually.

Underway
13-12-2005, 18:10
The fact that you are beginning to here more solid rumours surrounding the eldar indicates to me that they are entering the 6 month rumour release envelope. Oddly enough I haven't heard too much about the new Cityfight revision and that's supposed to come out after the Tau.

GW also does a product release schedule for upto a year in advance (at least 4 months) and though it can change (WaveSerpent was on and then off again once maybe two times) I have seen Warwalkers on it in the next 6 months or so, perhaps that will move around. Or could be a misprint (doubt it).

Orbital
13-12-2005, 18:26
The rumors do lead one to think that movement is happening. And who's surprised? It's an 8 year old codex with lots of holes in it, so if GW is working on the Eldar book and planning to release it soon I don't think anyone would find that odd.

There is no such thing as a "6 month rumor release envelope". I'm sorry to be contrary, but it's that kind of official-sounding talk which leads people to believe that confirmations exist where they really don't. You may have been thinking of the policy GW has about not putting anything on the Sneak Peeks page of their site unless it is 6 months away or less. They don't officially talk about anything which is further off than that, by the way, and that's for a very simple reason: They can change their plans without having to answer to anyone for it. This is why it is that rumors, playtesting, concept drawings or, in some cases, actual models being spotted before that 6 month period can't be taken as confirmation of anything, because GW can still change their minds (yeah, even when the model is cast. It happens). They've given no word to keep at that point, so that's why you can't be 100% sure till it's on the site.

Karhedron
13-12-2005, 20:00
As for the new Eldar rangers I have no idea whether they are plastic or metal. I personaly think given where GW is headed with plastic that these models will be plastic. Like the Veteran SM set etc...
Actually the latest I have heard on these chaps is that they will still be metal. They come in smaller units than Guardians and most players will only take a squad or two (well apart from Alaitoc ;)).


I would also not be surprised if they released a Dire Avenger plastic sprue as well like the BT crusaders sprue. Extra Aspect warrior bits to modify your basic plastic guardians, or to add to other aspects.
I have heard rumours that DAs will be redone in plastic but I have not been able to get any decent confirmation yet. More news will follow if/when I hear it.

Mystic Skink
13-12-2005, 20:03
I seriously hope they don't give guardians a +4 save instead of fixing the Shrukien Catapults.

I can't see how it fixes the problem. Aspect Warriors will still get capped, and Defenders will still get charged.

12 inches is toooooo short. Plus, a range 12 assault 2 weapon is retarded for a unit that can't survive HtH.

If they remove heavy weapon teams from the Defender squads and don't fix the catapults, nobody will *ever* take Defenders. Ever.

Also, I've never liked the fact that now Guardians play second fiddle to Aspect Warriors. In RT and 2nd ed. Guardians were the backbone of your army, none of this utter reliance poncy halloween costumed weirdos to kill things.

Oh, and while I'm being cranky. I wouldn't mind seeing the guardians getting back their laser weapon option. Although it will never happen.

Spell_of_Destruction
13-12-2005, 22:12
Also, I've never liked the fact that now Guardians play second fiddle to Aspect Warriors. In RT and 2nd ed. Guardians were the backbone of your army, none of this utter reliance poncy halloween costumed weirdos to kill things.

On the contrary. It seemed to me as if Guardians took a far larger role in the Eldar army in 3rd ed than they did back in 2nd ed. I never played Rogue Trader.

Guardians were certainly more effective in 2nd ed due to the rather excellent shuriken catapult but Dire Avengers were a better choice IMHO. All the Aspects were excellent choices in 2nd ed, unlike now.

Icarus
14-12-2005, 01:51
IMO Guardians should be ok, but not that great. Aspects should take precedent as that fits in with the fluff a lot more. With the exception of Ulthwe, guardians aren't used that often. However I'd like to see them become more like flexible support troops than the meatshield choice they seem to currently occupy.

boyd
14-12-2005, 01:57
I've also heard from other boards that there is a possibility that the Dire Avengers will have Rending to boot with their Shuriken Catapult.

Smoking Frog
14-12-2005, 10:34
Regarding the "meat-shield" guardians.

When one reads Eldar fluff (there goes another kitten...) it talks about "a dying race, proud of their past, clinging on to the vestiges of their civilisation, but with enough force to still be a major player".

Guardian squads are in the game, like skilled orks. There's lots of them, even though the Eldar are supposed to be a technologically superior race with inferior numbers. They have no other special things about them, the shuricat is like a carbine boltgun with an assault status on it, they have a save much like that of a guardsman, who wears a flak jacket, and they are taken as meatshields for heavy weapons.

What guardians should be, are skilled citizen-warriors (who have obviously actually had typical Eldar style training), with a more lethal shuricat, and superior armour, at a higher cost to reflect their technological superiority and low numbers.

But that's my take on what they should be, I haven't heard anything on what they will be...

Karhedron
14-12-2005, 20:25
I've also heard from other boards that there is a possibility that the Dire Avengers will have Rending to boot with their Shuriken Catapult.
Probably wishful thinking on the part of Eldar players. I have heard the idea suggested a lot and personally I quite like it. It would certainly fit with their fluff as masters of the shurikan catapult. However I have not heard anything about it being playtested so I would put it in the category of speculation for the time being.

Still, I hope it's true anyway. Even if only by coincidence. :angel:

I am also with Smoking Frog on his analysis of Guardians, they should be well trained and equipped, as befits a dying but advanced race. Ironically I think that Fire Warriors are pretty close to where Guardians should be based on the fluff.

Spell_of_Destruction
14-12-2005, 20:48
Probably wishful thinking on the part of Eldar players. I have heard the idea suggested a lot and personally I quite like it. It would certainly fit with their fluff as masters of the shurikan catapult. However I have not heard anything about it being playtested so I would put it in the category of speculation for the time being.

Although I'm not a massive fan of introducing more arbitrary rules, couldn't they give shuricat's a toned down version of rending that ignores armour saves on rolls of 6 to hit but doesn't get the vehicle busting junk?

Karhedron
14-12-2005, 22:01
That is pretty much the rule that Eldar Scouts get with their Sniper rifles.

heretic
16-12-2005, 15:39
Everyone keeps talking about Harlequins (including some GW folks), and it's clear that a lot of us WANT to see them somehow present in the 4th ed 40k world. I, personally, think it's doubtful; the sculpts are very old and the current rules for Harlequins are extremely old. Seeing as this is just a niche army and not likely to be brought up to the level of a "standard" 40k army, I don't know if anyone at GW actually has the time to do the work involved in "modernizing" them. It'd be a shame to see them fade off, but I get the sense that might happen.


The necron codex talkes quite a bit about the Harlequins/Outsider, so there could be a chance on a WD-type list after the release of the Eldar codex.. with GW's new trend of making army doctrines, traits, LatD, etc it seems very plausable.

Karhedron
16-12-2005, 18:20
I do not expect to see Harlequins in the new codex, however I do not expect them to go the way of Squats either. I suspect that later in 4th edition when all the main races have revised codices, GW might look at factions like Harlequins in the same way that they started looking at Inquisition forces at the end of 3rd edition.

Starchild
16-12-2005, 19:01
What guardians should be, are skilled citizen-warriors (who have obviously actually had typical Eldar style training), with a more lethal shuricat, and superior armour, at a higher cost to reflect their technological superiority and low numbers.I can't agree more. Guardians should be as well equipped as IG Storm Troopers: 4+ save armour, multiple grenade types, special weapons, etc. There's just one problem: if Guardians get a boost, how will Dire Avengers be different? Would Dire Avengers get better armour? Would Dire Avengers be revised into a rare uber-Aspect instead of the Guardian-equivalents they are now?

Karhedron
16-12-2005, 20:49
There's just one problem: if Guardians get a boost, how will Dire Avengers be different?
Rending!:evilgrin:

Ahem. You have a point, if you make Guardians too good, DAs may have difficulty comparing. Mind you, they still get significantly better stats (+ WS, BS, I and Ld).

Mystic Skink
16-12-2005, 21:29
I do not expect to see Harlequins in the new codex, however I do not expect them to go the way of Squats either. I suspect that later in 4th edition when all the main races have revised codices, GW might look at factions like Harlequins in the same way that they started looking at Inquisition forces at the end of 3rd edition.
Honestly, I think the best thing GW could do for Harlequins is to add them as a main Eldar and Dark Eldar list option.

Something along the lines of the way Assassins and other Heros of the Imperium were to Imperial lists. Giving them a Solitare, Shadowseer, or Death Jester as a single elite option would be very workable.

Orcdom
16-12-2005, 21:45
i would rather have the squads instead of just the characters, otherwise i wouldbe afraid its going the way of hero hammer, if its not heading that way as it is.

Steve

Ozendorph
16-12-2005, 22:49
One way of doing it would be to make an option similar to the Witch Cult sub-list implemented for the Dark Eldar:

Include harlequin troups as an elite(?) choice. Probably a squad of 5-10 models with an optional Warlock/Avatar leader.

Death Jesters could be taken in groups of 1-3 models (that are not necessarily placed together, much like lictors) as a Heavy Support choice. Up to one Death Jester selection can be made per Harlequin Troup in the army (up to the maximum 3 HS choices for a total of 9 jesters). Jesters would operate as independant characters who are unable to join/lead squads.

Give the Autarch a "High Avatar" upgrade, making him a harlequin leader and effectively changing the army into a harlequin-based force.. This would allow Troups to be taken as Troop choices, and severely limit non-harlequin options.

Anyway, just a rough idea. It doesn't account for ShadowSeers (High Warlocks), Solitares, Mimes, etc. I've got a few thoughts for those units as well, but I think I've taken the whole idea far enough as is, and you probably stopped reading some time ago ;)

Ozendorph
16-12-2005, 23:14
On second thought that's just too many jesters. Probably make them a 0-1 HS choice (for a max of 3 models), with the stipulation that at least 1 Harlequin Troup choice is required in order to select them.

Orbital
16-12-2005, 23:41
i would rather have the squads instead of just the characters, otherwise i wouldbe afraid its going the way of hero hammer, if its not heading that way as it is.

Do you really see it like that? See, I came into 40k during 3rd ed, and I think by then there were enough speed bumps in place so that Special Characters were no longer able to just waltz all over their enemies. I know that common wisdom since I've been in the game is to not waste points on those Characters because they just don't help that much. I get the idea that in 2nd ed it was a different thing.

Right now there are more Special Characters available, and they're available without opponent's permission. This gives me the idea that GW would like to see more of them on the table, which would make sense if they got abandoned in 3rd ed.

I, myself, have always found taking Special Characters to weaken my army overall; if I get that one SuperDude into the fray it can give me a bit more muscle, but by and large I think it's better to spend the points in other ways... and I'm ok with that. I think Characters are best for adding flavor, not for tipping the scales of game fairness.

Ozendorph
16-12-2005, 23:54
Special Characters were Gods in 2nd edition. Guys like Mephiston and Abbadon could trounce armies. Part of it was their cartoonish stats and amazing wargear, but part of it was also the way close combat was determined in that system. Having a weaponskill of 8 (which any self-respecting character had) basically meant nigh-invulnerability in hand-to-hand.

It was a crazy time for everybody.

Captain Stuart
17-12-2005, 00:06
I think GW removed SC limits simply to sell more models. It was a silly rule anyway.

Would the daemon hunter/with hunter system of a leader with a retinue and some troop choices be suitable for harlequins? It's really hard to keep their unique flavor in the current edition. Making more wargear and simplifying the unit weapons would be a good start.

It's been more than 10 years since I last played harlequins.