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View Full Version : would you use starcannons if they had 3 shots?



Aegius
19-03-2009, 18:02
I was reading through the news and rumours thread when I noticed a rumour of the starcannon getting 3 shots, but still costing its current number of points.

I'm trying to think whether I'd include starcannons in my army if this rumour turns out to be true and on which units I'd use them on.

Would 3 shots from a starcannon influence you to start using them again, or is the rule for cover enough to keep you away from them?

The_Outsider
19-03-2009, 18:04
They used to have 3 shots, in addition to being a lot cheaper and it resulted in starcannon spam - an eldar list that make even the old IW army o' doom cry.

Even at current cost heavy 3 isn't really needed, unless they drop its strength down to 6 liek it was before.

PumaKiller
19-03-2009, 18:04
I think if that were the case we might just see a complete flip an everyone would be using Starcannons instead of Scatter Lasers. I honestly think stat wise it is fine right now, it's just the cost that's a little too high. I think it should cost just about the same as a Scatter Laser. Cutting your firepower in half for good AP seems to be pretty even especially with the cover rules in 5th.

Ubermensch Commander
19-03-2009, 18:17
No thanks. We had Starcannons with 3 shots last codex. No good. An anti-Meq heavy bolter avaliable on each and every vehcile and even some infantry squads? It really limits any other weapon being used, simply beause there is almost no need for them.

So lowering the points costs perhaps but I presume the real preponderance of Scatter Lasers in your area may be partly due to Orks running about/cover saves popping up more.

Grimtuff
19-03-2009, 18:23
Even at current cost heavy 3 isn't really needed, unless they drop its strength down to 6 liek it was before.

Starcannons are still S6. Only the amount of shots changed. ;)

redbaron998
19-03-2009, 18:48
I dont bother with them. With bost the 2 shot nerf and the point hike I think they are a rip off. That they needed nerfing no doubt, but they should have eithier made it 2 shots and kept the lower cost, or kept it at 3 but raised the cost.

As it is Ill just be happy with my wonderful scatter lasers.

kikkoman
19-03-2009, 18:52
I'd like it to be bumped up to s7 at 2 shots

It would give the starcannon a more distinct role.

Right now the Eldar have THREE s6 multishot weapons
s6 ap5 h3 shuricannon
s6 ap6 h4 scat laser
s6 ap2 h2 starcannon



making it s7 would make it sort of like a super-autocannon, and it could also serve to take out light vehicles and monstrous creatures more effectively.

It's also the strength that almost every other plasma weapon is at.

Captain Micha
19-03-2009, 19:13
Just drop it down to the scatter laser cost. Trading Ap for shots is a pretty even swap.

Poseidal
19-03-2009, 19:27
Just drop it down to the scatter laser cost. Trading Ap for shots is a pretty even swap.
The Scatter Laser still outperforms it on anything short of Terminators still if there's cover though. :s

I wouldn't mind it just becoming a Plasma Cannon again.

Captain Micha
19-03-2009, 19:28
It's all about specialist use with the dar anyway :p besides it also pops Marines. :D

Coneko XT-99
19-03-2009, 21:50
I still use starcannons now. :/
Then again my army is really small and i dont mind the higher points cost because i need to tool them up to just reach 1500 points with the models i have.

Vaktathi
19-03-2009, 21:56
Honestly, I still don't think I'd use them for my Eldar list.

The prevalance of cover and the utility per point of the scatterlaser just make it a much better choice.

That said, I think it was kinda dumb to make the Starcannon Heavy 2. If they had left it heavy 3 and taken it away from half the units that could take it so it could only be mounted on a select few units that would have stopped the spamming problem.

zeep
19-03-2009, 22:00
Just drop it down to the scatter laser cost. Trading Ap for shots is a pretty even swap.

It's an even swap against meq, against anybody else its an incredible leap in power.

IG, Nids, Orcs, tau, and both eldar would have this trade not balance well at all. Points are a far better balance method than ap.

Gensuke626
19-03-2009, 22:45
I think that Starcannons should be Heavy 3, especially with the amount of Cover Saves one can get. But then again I also think that Scatter Lasers should be Heavy 6...Or like they were in 2nd ed. Heavy 6 and can target multiple units with the same gun.

Bodysnatcher
19-03-2009, 23:30
I still remember the horror of Starcannon spam! Please nooo!

Aegius
20-03-2009, 01:08
I still remember the horror of Starcannon spam! Please nooo!

lol. I remember that too. I refused to play as Eldar in 4th ed until the codex came out, but I remember the starcannon spam.

I don't think that getting 3 shots will result in starcannon spam tbh. as the cover rules kinda negate the ap2. I just wanted to see if others though that it would make this weapon viable. I personally think that it makes starcannon vypers viable in armies other than saim hann themed armies.

holmcross
20-03-2009, 01:21
I'd like it to be bumped up to s7 at 2 shots

It would give the starcannon a more distinct role.

Right now the Eldar have THREE s6 multishot weapons


Good point, I think it's time to cut back on thier weapon bloat.

What a shame it would be if Eldar players lost thier meta lists.

Hellebore
20-03-2009, 01:22
With the scatter rules for blast now, the plasma cannon is vastly superior to the starcannon.

3 shots still doesn't make it equal, because of the amount of destruction a 3" blast template that hits anything it touches can produce.

I'd rather it was heavy 2 blast, but then I actually want to see eldar technology that is simply superior to Imperial tech with a comensurately expensive point cost of course.

Hellebore

ehlijen
20-03-2009, 01:24
Make it blast instead. It's meant to be the eldar plasma cannon equivalent after all.

Hellfury
20-03-2009, 01:54
GW did two things to 'fix' starcannons in 4th ed.

They lowered its ROF AND they increased the cost.

They should have stuck to one or the other, not both.

At the current cost it is at, I think three shots wouldn't be bad. They might even be able to get away with increasing the cost by 5 or so points.

But there is a reason why they are rarely used right now, and the reasons why I listed earlier are a big part of it.

Aegius
20-03-2009, 02:09
Well, after re-reading the original thread, it looks like a hoax rumour, sooooo it doesn't look like this will happen anywhos.

scolex
20-03-2009, 02:33
If they go to 3 shots they need to be s5, severely limited in how many you can get, or prohibitively expensive. Just one of those things though, definitley not multiples. I want to see them as a good option, not terrible or a no brainer.

Old starcannons got spammed way too much, mainly because they were too good. They instant killed GEQ, and dropped MEQ/Orks on 2+ to wound with no save. Not to mention that they could gut light vehicles.

sabre4190
20-03-2009, 02:46
Yeah, if it was S6 with 3 shots people would take alot of them. It happened with the last book. On a massive scale. It was pretty painful. I remember an old saim-hann list, with 18 vipers with star cannons. That obliterated any MEQ list through sheer firepower. It didnt even need mobility.

Hellfury
20-03-2009, 03:30
What people are forgetting right now is that GW both lowered the rate of fire and made them prohibitively expensive.

Basically overbalancing it.

it would have perfectly sufficed to leave them at their 3rd ed points while reducing their ROF, but thats not what happened.

People in this thread are suggesting the same overbalancing that GW did in the first place to make them an unacceptable choice to take. This is evinced in the frequency you see eldar players taking such weapons.

Remember, cover saves are frickking everywhere now, so AP2 means little to nothing any more.

Poseidal
20-03-2009, 09:51
For all those complaining about the old starcannon spam need to know the context of why it was spammed. In the old codex simply all other heavy weapons were over costed (shuricannon, missile launcher) not performing the same role (brightlance) or just plain terrible (random shot scatter laser).

Hellebore
21-03-2009, 12:09
I still don't see how with the new blast rules a 3 shot starcannon is better than a plasma cannon, especially when they are all BS3. Remember that the eldar starcannon is supposed to be better than the imperial plasma cannon, but the modern blast rules make the plasma cannon absolutely insane.

Hellebore

Radium
21-03-2009, 12:29
Like others have said before: the starcannon eithers needs to drop to scatter lasers pointwise, or get it's 3 shots back. No blast needed (just to differentiate from imperial stuff).

I'd LOVE to have a useful starcannon, as I really like how it looks. It just screams Eldar design, but it's just so worthless, taking it rather gimps the player.

Grazzy
21-03-2009, 14:08
2 shots is fine as long as the cost is decreased. 3 shots makes it too versatile - it would work against all infantry and light vehicles.

Starcannon spam was horrific - 30 ap 2 shots a turn crippled marines by turn 2.

Hellebore
21-03-2009, 14:12
Wait until the plasma cannon spam of the imperial guard hits you. If you think 30 BS3 AP2 shots were bad, imagine a dozen 3" blasts errupting amongst your troops....

Hellebore

Radium
21-03-2009, 14:21
The bad part about starcannon spam was not the starcannon, but the CTM and the non-targettable weapon platforms...

Captain Micha
21-03-2009, 15:27
I have to say though that Twin Linked Starcannons on Serpents seems stupidly effective still. So maybe it doesn't need a points drop.

I don't think the Starcannon's current state in people's minds is a reflection on the Starcannon's quality.

But rather the lack of it on Guardians. It should be stripped out from Guardians entirely in my opinion.

It's great on Warwalkers, and Serpents, and decent on Wraithlords. Absolutely worthless on Guardians (haven't seen enough Vypers in action to gauge them yet), but then Guardians are an absolutely worthless unit anyway. It's not so hot on Falcons, but really I don't think alot of things are hot on Falcons. After seeing the Fire Prism I don't know why Eldar ever fielded that ****. Sure it never dies. But neither does the Fireprism, and doesn't pack serious firepower like the Fireprism.

vyper
21-03-2009, 15:29
making it s7 would make it sort of like a super-autocannon, and it could also serve to take out light vehicles and monstrous creatures more effectively.

It's also the strength that almost every other plasma weapon is at.

Strength 7 Plasma weapons all suffer from the Gets Hot! special rule, whereas Strength 6 plasma weapons do not. See the Tau codex for example.

I can't imagine its strength being bumped up to be honest.

Poseidal
21-03-2009, 15:50
Strength 7 Plasma weapons all suffer from the Gets Hot! special rule, whereas Strength 6 plasma weapons do not. See the Tau codex for example.

I can't imagine its strength being bumped up to be honest.
No Gets Hot! rule because it's Eldar, who are more advanced than the Tau. Problem solved!

Vedar
21-03-2009, 15:53
Eldar weapons do not get hot. Starcannons are worthless right now. Bumping them up to 3 shot (might) make them usefull again. This is the era of scatterlasers.

shin'keiro
21-03-2009, 16:33
Would 3 shots from a starcannon influence you to start using them again, or is the rule for cover enough to keep you away from them?
I use lots of them anyway!


unless they drop its strength down to 6 liek it was before.

it is strength 6 already.

Devil Tree
22-03-2009, 06:12
I put up my vote for leaving the Star Cannonís number of shots the same, but lowering the point cost. Itís a pretty reasonable tradeoff; you can either have lots of shots or low AP. Having both would be way too versatile, all it would do is upset the balance of the game and make the other Eldar big guns unattractive.

As far as bumping it up to strength 7 goes, I wouldnít mind. It would just make it a little bit better at cracking open light armor when not facing MEQs.

Hellebore
22-03-2009, 06:46
I'd rather it turned into a blast weapon. Screw the multi shot rules, having it as a 3" blast would be a far better alternative.

I would much rather have a S6 3" blast weapon than a S6 heay 3 weapon.

hellebore

Stezerok
22-03-2009, 06:51
Eldar weapons do not get hot. Starcannons are worthless right now. Bumping them up to 3 shot (might) make them usefull again. This is the era of scatterlasers.

Are you serious dude? "(Might) make them more useful"? what the hell is that. They'd be a hell of a lot more useful. Anyone who used that codex knows how much that extra shot adds.

And personally, I don't want to go back to that time. It was a time where we used the same units, same weapons, and same tricks every time. Talk about boring...

Personally, I think they're fine at two shots. I think str 7 and make them 20 points and we got a deal.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok