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Conotor
19-03-2009, 22:46
I find command groops totaly destroy the vicious, united, ready-to fight look of most infantry units.

Grimtuff
19-03-2009, 22:50
Okay, we have a start you've posted the "whats" now try the "whys" and you'll get more replies! (Hey that rhymes!) In failing to do so you've not got much of a discussion here, as is demonstrated by my answer.

No.

Next question.

Malorian
19-03-2009, 22:56
I can see the musician being out of place sometimes, but adding banners and models that look tougher (champs) can only make the unit look better.

Bretonnian Lord
19-03-2009, 23:07
I can see the musician being out of place sometimes, but adding banners and models that look tougher (champs) can only make the unit look better.

Basically this.

Aurellis
19-03-2009, 23:44
I've never come across anyone's opinion similar to this. There are some great command group models. The Executioner and Black Guard champion models are superb examples.

sigur
19-03-2009, 23:49
...
No.

Next question.

If only these questions would just end.

Anyway, I'll go by the same opinion as Grimtuff just because I'm too lazy to type "No".:p

And what's that with people not liking musicians?

Kristov
19-03-2009, 23:50
CMD 4 da win!

Seriously, I like command group models, I think the more pose/equipment variation of models in a unit the better.

W A L 5 H Y
19-03-2009, 23:56
Command models look great, cant think of a unit that looks bad due to the command.

Could you give an exhample of why you dislike command groups?

mweaver
20-03-2009, 00:05
Generally, I think they look pretty good with most units. I just wish my standard bearers wouldn't drink so much before the battle... they're always falling over.

Sirroelivan
20-03-2009, 00:11
Try glueing a small coin or another weight under their base.

stroller
20-03-2009, 00:19
No. I liek tehm. Thur not discustink an der modles r kool. (English is always good...)

Orcboy_Phil
20-03-2009, 00:19
No, Banners really give a unit flavour. I always put command groups into my infantry units. Howver my missle troops normally don't. Whats the use of a giant rag being placed in the line of fire of a bow. I'm looking at you bloody Peasent bowmen.

Godgolden
20-03-2009, 00:31
i lament the command squads eagerness to look different from line troopers, for chaos warriors anyway.

silly horn and i pick out the champ for picking him out when hes dead etc.

but a frontage of all similar warriors is awesome.

basically it wouldnt be a problem if the units were 15 across but thats me wanting a realsictic engagement.

Aurellis
20-03-2009, 01:46
basically it wouldnt be a problem if the units were 15 across but thats me wanting a realsictic engagement.

Nowhere does it say you can't have a 15 model frontage. I say go for it infact!

souljaking09
20-03-2009, 01:50
I don't like the current catachan officers, but I like the old oop ones and the ones that havent come out yet.

Conotor
20-03-2009, 01:51
I can see the musician being out of place sometimes, but adding banners and models that look tougher (champs) can only make the unit look better.

In units with shields, the champs and standard berors often don't have shields, makeing the unit look more like a mob then a fighting force IMO. Same with spearmen.

Aurellis
20-03-2009, 01:52
I don't like the current catachan officers, but I like the old oop ones and the ones that havent come out yet.

All the Catachans suffer from out of proportion syndrome so that's more of an armywide problem.

In most fantasy armies the command group, specifically the banner bearer, probably adds to the look and feels of the assembled armies on the battlefield.

VeriNasti
20-03-2009, 01:55
Most command groups look pretty good, so I said no

souljaking09
20-03-2009, 01:56
All the Catachans suffer from out of proportion syndrome so that's more of an armywide problem.

In most fantasy armies the command group, specifically the banner bearer, probably adds to the look and feels of the assembled armies on the battlefield.

What is wrong with having swoll jungle fighters? It seems like everybody is just jealous or something. It's the year 40K. You don't know what humans are capable of. They are probably a slightly evolved human. Not all catachan officers are bad models, just the current ones.

It makes it feel more real to have a commander and not just a bunch of troops. Plus, it makes the army feel more real.

By the way, I think it is clear you are the only one that hates command squads. LOL.

Aurellis
20-03-2009, 02:06
What is wrong with having swoll jungle fighters? It seems like everybody is just jealous or something. It's the year 40K. You don't know what humans are capable of. They are probably a slightly evolved human. Not all catachan officers are bad models, just the current ones.

It makes it feel more real to have a commander and not just a bunch of troops. Plus, it makes the army feel more real.

By the way, I think it is clear you are the only one that hates command squads. LOL.

Lolz!1211! indeed... I thought I'd made it clear that I love the look and feel of commands, you might want to read my posts along the thread :)

Nephilim of Sin
20-03-2009, 02:27
I find command groops totaly destroy the vicious, united, ready-to fight look of most infantry units.

Emphasis mine. Vicious? Now every army is grimdark, but in reality most of the champions, done well, will come across as every inch of viciousness you need.

United? Sorry, I cannot understand what exactly you mean here, as the whole premise of the command group is to unify the unit, both in fluff, real life, and in rules. That is exactly the point of adding a command group to a unit.

Although, I will agree, there is one problem I have with command groups. Balancing the unit. I run my orcs six wide, and just can't get the 'balanced' feel I could get if I had a banner in the middle of a unit of five-wide. Although, it does let me alternate where the banner goes, making like units more unique. But, that is just a personal, OCD pet-peeve.

sabre4190
20-03-2009, 03:11
I love command. In fact, I love command so much I have a "command" for my entire army. This is obvious for champion (general), standard bearer (BSB), but I also have an "army musician". Hes a hero choice, and I model him with an instrument (a big one) that represents some kind of enchanted item or talisman. Thats how much I love command.

Joewrightgm
20-03-2009, 03:18
I have a strong preference for almost all the command models that are out there now; the state troopers look awesome, the Saurus have a great aztec/sem-feral look about them, the Orcs and goblins have their bosses advancing to the front ready to bust skulls wide open . . .

I could go on but I'm not.

Kerill
20-03-2009, 08:50
Command models look good, my only problem is with certain musicians. Specifically horn/trumpet guys for undead. They don't have lungs GW, give them drums please.

ChaosVC
20-03-2009, 09:56
Love them until I have to start painting the flags...

Braad
20-03-2009, 09:58
I love them!
I put them wherever I can. The only unit that doesnt' have full command in my army (except those that just can't take them) are my 2 units of fast cav wolf riders, and that was only because I didn't really like the 'non-flag' banners in the box. I could have converted them, but well, they work fine.
But for example spider banners are so cool that I just gave them a couple.

I'm actually working on a group of 3 black orc warbosses to become my army command group for really large games! Got 2 finished, the Grimgor model as warboss champion, and the limited edition battle standard bearer, and working on painting a big boss with a drum (simple conversion though, mainly head swap), which will come equipped with the horn of urgok to represent his wardrum. All those three in a single unit of black orcs, and try to defeat those!

Okay, maybe with a flank charge, but that's not the point...

W0lf
20-03-2009, 12:44
I like banners in my regiments and knights.

Champions are cool and offer a chance to make a distinguished models.

Muscians can looks out of place sometimes.

Overall i like them, or as i voted 'i like the modles'

zoggin-eck
20-03-2009, 12:48
In 15 years I've never heard of someone not liking command groups.

They are one of the mainstays of Warhammer, both in rules and look of the models/regiments/game.

Weird, never thought about it before.

Oh, and souljaking09 - I don't think anyone else is talking about 40k's Imperial Guard command groups (squads) so maybe read what section this thread is in mate :) (yeah, I'm one of the few who like Catachans too)

Chiron
20-03-2009, 14:15
Command models look good, my only problem is with certain musicians. Specifically horn/trumpet guys for undead. They don't have lungs GW, give them drums please.

Dude... its a walking skeleton

Mercules
20-03-2009, 14:16
Hmmmm... I play Ogres... what are command groups again?:p

Keller
20-03-2009, 14:26
I generally like how a command looks in a unit.


Generally, I think they look pretty good with most units. I just wish my standard bearers wouldn't drink so much before the battle... they're always falling over.
Ha, that's my biggest complaint too. I glued washers under the bases of all my troops, then put them on magnetic trays. It helps a lot, but some of the bigger banner-holders still get a little tipsy.


Lolz!1211! Please controll yourself. :rolleyes:


Command models look good, my only problem is with certain musicians. Specifically horn/trumpet guys for undead. They don't have lungs GW, give them drums please.
I've always thought the same, but I actually prefer the look of the horns. When I converted my Empire Militia army, I had to make a bunch of musicians for them and wanted something a bit unique. I made a trumpet player (Empire uses drums) and 2 guys with lutes. On their days off, they form a mariachii band. :p

Conotor
20-03-2009, 14:54
United? Sorry, I cannot understand what exactly you mean here, as the whole premise of the command group is to unify the unit, both in fluff, real life, and in rules. That is exactly the point of adding a command group to a unit.


I mean that the unit looks more like a mob of random people with a command group in front, as everyone has different weapons.

selone
20-03-2009, 15:05
No, I dont hate command group's, I do hate goblins giving away 100 Vp's for their standards though :D

Leogun_91
20-03-2009, 15:21
Hmmmm... I play Ogres... what are command groups again?:p
It is those models that commands sigle units normally a champion, a banner bearer and a musician but in the case of ogres the musicians are exchanged for bellowers that has the exact same effect. For more information see page 80-81 in the core rulebook of Warhammer fantasy battles.

Desert Rain
20-03-2009, 15:32
I like command groups, especially standard bearers with banners. I fell that a full command really makes the unit come alive and look ready for action.
The only thing that I don't like with them are skeletons who are blowing a horn (WTF!?!)

lparigi34
20-03-2009, 15:44
Besides, command model cost points and are a tactical choice, so you may, if so you wish, just not add them to the unit and use those points somewhere else.

Has anyone ever made an analysis if command is really worth its points? I did some, once ago, but only for champions, and for some units the answer was a blatant no (i.e. archer units and Orc Bigguns), but then you most consider the challenge issue and maybe you want the choice to have a champ that is not worthy on his own merits (making him a sacrificial champ).

So, maybe, just maybe, is better to save on banners and buy more guys to some supporting units, or save on musicians to add an extra guy...

--- just some thoughts...

Chaos Undecided
20-03-2009, 15:52
Thing about complaining about Skeletal Musicians having horns because they wont be able to blow them is they dont have ears either :evilgrin: its just one of those things that happens in fantasy.

Mostly I quite like command groups in my units where its appropriate sometimes think it'd be nice to have more options in the way of what to give them if only Aesthetically but at the end of the day no one is forcing you to include them in your army even if you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot somewhat by not having them.

Makaber
20-03-2009, 16:17
I've been playing Empire: Total War lately, and zooming in close to a regiment of line infantry, what do I see? A guy in a snazzy hat carrying a sabre, a guy holding a banner, and their buddy drumming a little tattoo. It made me totally giddy.

Command is great. Nothing better than a lot of banners to make the army look amazing as a whole, and nothing like a champion to add individuality to the unit.

selone
20-03-2009, 16:31
It is those models that commands sigle units normally a champion, a banner bearer and a musician but in the case of ogres the musicians are exchanged for bellowers that has the exact same effect. For more information see page 80-81 in the core rulebook of Warhammer fantasy battles.

I think he was being silly.

Mercules
20-03-2009, 16:31
Thing about complaining about Skeletal Musicians having horns because they wont be able to blow them is they dont have ears either :evilgrin: its just one of those things that happens in fantasy

Or the fact that Skeletons don't have ligaments to hold them together or muscles to move their bones. Somehow magically animated piles of loose bone need lungs to blow a horn, but don't need muscles to walk or swing a sword?:wtf: Lets not forget lips to create the noise for the horn to begin with. :rolleyes:

Mercules
20-03-2009, 16:37
It is those models that commands sigle units normally a champion, a banner bearer and a musician but in the case of ogres the musicians are exchanged for bellowers that has the exact same effect. For more information see page 80-81 in the core rulebook of Warhammer fantasy battles.

I understand Command Groups. Ogres RARELY use them beyond Bellowers because they are most often used MSU and the Champions cost almost a whole extra ogre(20 for Champ and 35 for Ogre) to gain +1 attack. You also rarely use Champions for Challenges as most of the time you want your characters in challenges. 4 units with Champions or 5 units without? I'll take 5, Bob. Banners are just a really great way to give your opponent points in MSU.

Keller
20-03-2009, 18:03
I understand Command Groups. Ogres RARELY use them beyond Bellowers because they are most often used MSU and the Champions cost almost a whole extra ogre(20 for Champ and 35 for Ogre) to gain +1 attack. You also rarely use Champions for Challenges as most of the time you want your characters in challenges. 4 units with Champions or 5 units without? I'll take 5, Bob. Banners are just a really great way to give your opponent points in MSU.

I tend to take champions more often than not in my Ogre Kingdoms armies. I like them because it helps soak up more wounds on the unit, allowing a greater chance of maximum number of ogres getting into base to base contact. I'd much rather pay the 20 points to keep 4 more attacks against the enemy when I'd have lost another base for the 1-2 wounds the champion soaked up for the unit. IMO, that makes them worth the upgrade cost.

TeddyC
20-03-2009, 18:12
I mean that the unit looks more like a mob of random people with a command group in front, as everyone has different weapons.

im looking now at my 3 units of dwarf warriors... all with full command... all the front rank having HW weapon and shield....

The musicians for my hammerers all have GW modelled on and my slayer command (as much of a points sink they may be... taken because the they look cool) all have weapons...

i really am missing the point of your argument here

rottahn
20-03-2009, 18:49
I've never come across anyone's opinion similar to this. There are some great command group models. The Executioner and Black Guard champion models are superb examples.

i wish the black guard looked more like the command group!
at any rate, i think the command group makes the unit look better. especially how an empire army looks great when a converted unit champ is a lot better armored/armed when he leads an older regiment.

Braad
20-03-2009, 21:47
I think he was being silly.

I think Leogun was being silly too...

Conotor
20-03-2009, 22:58
im looking now at my 3 units of dwarf warriors... all with full command... all the front rank having HW weapon and shield....

The musicians for my hammerers all have GW modelled on and my slayer command (as much of a points sink they may be... taken because the they look cool) all have weapons...

i really am missing the point of your argument here

The point is that they have different weopns from the rank and file troops, makeing them look out of place.

Aurellis
20-03-2009, 23:02
The point is that they have different weopns from the rank and file troops, makeing them look out of place.

Yes because they're leading the unit. They are there to be different. Why have a skilled warrior when he could just be the same as the rest of the troops? Why keep morale up with drums when your models can run away like all homogenous troops? Why not proudly display the history of your regiment when other units can bear no history? To me it's all about adding a bit of character of flavour to the units.

BenTheRat
20-03-2009, 23:07
I tend to like them, though I almost never buy a champion. but I use the model.

dannyfave
20-03-2009, 23:14
For me it depends weather or not the unit has shields , I like my shielded units to have a wall of shields to the front, otherwise I don't mind.

O&G'sRule
20-03-2009, 23:41
erm..... no

TeddyC
20-03-2009, 23:43
The point is that they have different weopns from the rank and file troops, makeing them look out of place.

but... they dont....

go look at the hammerer champion... 2 handed hammer held in the same pose as the other hammerers. I doubt you can see it on the official pics but so do the musician and SB.

BFSP dwarfs... ok the standard bearer doesnt have a HW but hes holding the banner with 2 hands. musician and champ both have HW.

My old metal ones are the same... the standard bearer has a sword... the champ has a hammer and the musician has an axe.... all armed the same way as the rest of the unit.

Horus38
21-03-2009, 00:47
In units with shields, the champs and standard berors often don't have shields, makeing the unit look more like a mob then a fighting force IMO. Same with spearmen.

If you're that bent outta shape about it just model them to have the appropriate equipment on the command group.

Champions and banners add a lot of character, but I often find the drum banging musicians look a bit daft (horns however, are usually good) ;)

dhosek
21-03-2009, 07:26
personally, it always really depended on what army i was playing. I used to play O&G and i agree that it ruined the feel. Currently im playing bretonnia though and it would feel wrong not to have a banner and musician leading a train of knights

Master Stark
21-03-2009, 14:16
I can see where the OP is coming from, in that a command group can ruin the 'shield wall' effect of the front rank.

But a bit of clever modelling can usually mitigate this.

Awilla the Hun
21-03-2009, 14:47
Well, seeing how GW's new models don't really have a great sense of unity at the best of times (those new State Troops-they have the best supplied and trained army in the world, and men fight in their bare feet? Even my Red Guards have boots! And they have no formation, and they don't rank up!) Command Groups aren't that bad, really.

Feefait
22-03-2009, 03:50
SO a group of 40 plastic models in a singular, or maybe dual pose looks better than a unit with some variety in the frint rank. I thought you'd go somewhere more, well debatable or strategic than their over all points versus worth. but nope, once again my hopes and dreams are smashed like so many exxon freighters on the corpses of baby seals.

Wolf 11x
22-03-2009, 05:50
I'm one of the 4 who voted "they are discuting" because I find it even harder to rank up. Also, banners constantly fall over. Mine are magnetized though.

dannyfave
22-03-2009, 05:59
If you're that bent outta shape about it just model them to have the appropriate equipment on the command group.

Champions and banners add a lot of character, but I often find the drum banging musicians look a bit daft (horns however, are usually good) ;)

Bent outa shape? Hardly, I just have to reposition the models so as the shield wall is intact. Sometimes that leads to having models in a retarded position though.

souljaking09
22-03-2009, 06:03
I think warseer has spoken. it's time to close the thread.:cries:

Only 4 people are against command squads out of like 160.

- Human
22-03-2009, 09:39
No. I love command groups. Musicians, Champions and beautiful banners are intergral parts of WHFB in both rules, imagery and theme.

spetswalshe
22-03-2009, 11:59
I dislike both banners and musicians. I can see the IRL advantage of having standard bearers with every unit, but for me they vary rarely look right - someone in the front rank (where the fightin' goes one) who is holding a weighty, blunt, 12-foot pole? Moving that thing will take two hands at least. Plus, I've always been a fan of 'low-key' army fluff; an Empire army being the raised troops of a minor Captain going to the rescue of a village, rather than an enormous and mighty force taking on the greenskins in an Empire-spanning campaign. And in my opinion, local regiments and militias are less likely to have banners and such, since everyone needs to get on with the fighting.

I'm not sure why I dislike musicians. Might be the same 'unreadiness' feel to them - some people do carry enormous drums that they'd really have to ditch when it came to the actual fighting - or it might just be me finding medieval music in general rather foppish and silly.