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Orcboy_Phil
20-03-2009, 06:11
Anybody know if Chaos Dwarfs count as a dwarf army for the purpose of dispell dice generation?

TheDarkDaff
20-03-2009, 09:14
They don't. The bonus dice are a way to make up for having no magic casters (which Chaos Dwarves have).

Lord Zarkov
21-03-2009, 11:15
TheDarkDaff is correct.

Incidently they aren't relentless either.

WLBjork
22-03-2009, 09:40
In fact, Chaos Dwarfs - other than being short and sharing a common ancestry - have nothing to with Dwarfs, and share none of their rules.

It's rather like the 3 flavours of Elves - High Elves have ASF, but Dark Elves and Wood Elves don't (to the same extent).

Urgat
22-03-2009, 15:49
So you can add that they don't hate greenskins, and that night goblins don't hate them, too, btw :)

Gazak Blacktoof
22-03-2009, 16:28
Chaos Dwarfs might not hate greenskins, as its not in their rules, but night goblins still hate Chaos Dwarfs. Night goblins' hatred of dwarfs is a racial enmity the same as the fear elves trait makes goblins fear all types of elves. Chaos dwarfs are still dwarfs in the same way that wood elves, high elves and dark elves are all elves.

Agoz
22-03-2009, 16:28
So you can add that they don't hate greenskins, and that night goblins don't hate them, too, btw

in fact they like to keep greenskins around ;)

wizuriel
22-03-2009, 16:36
Chaos Dwarfs might not hate greenskins, as its not in their rules, but night goblins still hate Chaos Dwarfs. Night goblins' hatred of dwarfs is a racial enmity the same as the fear elves trait makes goblins fear all types of elves. Chaos dwarfs are still dwarfs in the same way that wood elves, high elves and dark elves are all elves.

I would disagree with that. Night Goblins hate dwarves not chaos dwarfs (at this point in time they are as different as empire humans and chaos warriors or other mutated humans). Hobgoblins do not fear elves (they don't have that rule and seems more likely they would fear their dwarfish masters more), however dwarves do get hatred against hobgoblins (as they hate greenskins of every type and it mentiones hobgoblins).

edit: still its a pretty minor issue if they get hatred or not.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-03-2009, 16:55
edit: still its a pretty minor issue if they get hatred or not.

Agreed, I'm certainly not going to get into an argument about it as I doubt I'll ever play against any chaos dwarfs.

Personally I think any type of dwarf will look much the same to a night goblin in the same way that all elves smell funny to a goblin.

I wasn't attempting to imply that hobgoblins fear elves, its not in their rules so they obviously don't.

EvC
22-03-2009, 17:32
If a model has a rule saying they hate Dwarfs, then they hate any kind of model that is a Dwarf [be it Dwarf, Dogs of War Dwarf, or Chaos Dwarf].
If Goblins have a rule saying they fear Elves, then something that looks like a Goblin doesn't fear elves, because they don't have that rule.

When GW write rules or give abilities that affect specific ethnic groups, they do make gamers rely on their common sense. If a spell does extra damage to Daemons, then they expect you to be able to determine that a Daemon Prince is a Daemon for example. Similarly, a Chaos Dwarf is a Dwarf, even if it doesn't bother to tell you this much. We can work it out ;)

Harwammer
22-03-2009, 19:46
If night goblins hate dwarfs and dwarf armies gain 2 dispel dice (as per the BRB) then surely they either hate chaos dwarfs AND chaos dwarfs get the dispel dice (on account of CDs being dwarfs) or they don't hate chaos dwarfs and chaos dwarfs don't get the extra dispel dices (on account of chaos dwarfs not being dwarfs).

Surely it can't be 'best of both worlds'

EvC
22-03-2009, 20:08
No.
Dwarf armies from the Dwarf army book get the bonus dice, and the Relentless rule. Other styles of Dwarfs only get those benefits if we are told they get the benefits.

Yet they are still Dwarfs, so other rules that apply work against Dwarf models, work against Dwarf models.

Such basic logic I am speaking in tautologies!

Bac5665
22-03-2009, 20:12
Those things aren't linked in any way. The dwarves get extra dice rule come from the dwarf book, so it clearly only affects dwarves in the dwarf book.

The hating dwarves thing refers to dwarves outside of the OnG rule book, leaving without specifying the type, thus leaving open all kinds of dwarves to be hatted.

The difference is the nature of the reference. One is an internal reference and the other is an external reference. I know this because of the contruction of both rules. Internal references can only refer to things that occur in the book. External references can refer to anything that matches the type outside the book.

Now, to be clear, one can still argue that chaos dwarves aren't dwarves for the purposes of Night Goblin hated. I'm simply saying that they aren't linked, and its quite resaonable to argue that CD don't get the extra dice but are hated by night goblins.

Aeneas
22-03-2009, 20:28
Actually, Dwarfs getting extra dispel dice is in the main rule book.

Not that I think Chaos Dwarfs should get the bonus but with the way GW writes rules i guess they do...

Lordy
22-03-2009, 20:55
Dwarfs as a race are naturally magic resistant which fluff wise is why Dwarfs get the extra dispell dice, i don't see why Chaos Dwarfs would be any different but unless it's printed anywhere i don't think they will get the extra dispel dice.

Bac5665
22-03-2009, 21:07
Actually, Dwarfs getting extra dispel dice is in the main rule book.

Not that I think Chaos Dwarfs should get the bonus but with the way GW writes rules i guess they do...

The Rule book states that "an army of Dwarfs" gets the extra dice. Note the capital letter. Its Dwarfs as a title, not dwarfs as a race. Thus this is an exception explicitly for the Dwarf army, not the Chaos Dwarf army even though both are dwarfs. Capitalization matters as much as any grammatical element.

Coram_Boy
22-03-2009, 21:16
I think I've changed my mind a bit. I used to think 2 DD, but I'm not too sure now. Bac, surely basing your arguement on capitalisation is a bit strained. As it is, I think that this could be debated for a while. It is 'Fears Elves', not 'Fears elves', isn't it?

Gazak Blacktoof
22-03-2009, 21:44
It is 'Fears Elves', not 'Fears elves', isn't it?

Yes, it is.

wizuriel
22-03-2009, 22:17
okay the way I see it: dwarfs and chaos dwarfs are no longer the same race (kinda like humans and chaos).

now goblins/night goblins fear elves of any kind. Dwarfs hate goblins of any kind. Night goblins only hate dwarfs.

now the dispel table on the rulebook iirc mentions +2 dispell dice for a dwarf army (so a DoW dwarf unit alone in any other army would not give you a +2 dispell dice for having dwarfs) so chaos dwarfs would not get the +2 dice.

even rule wise chaos dwarfs are different from regular dwarfs (no relentess, guess thats what happens when you rely on slaves to do everything for you).

Dai-Mongar
22-03-2009, 22:38
Good thing nobody has "Hates Humans". :P
The dispel dice question is pretty clear cut, if they don't have the rule in their army list then they don't get the dispel dice. There isn't really a good argument for them getting it other than "they're Dwarfs", which is weak.
There's a precedent for this too, in the Man O War rules. Dwarf fleets get to dispel enemy magic without having wizards but the Chaos Dwarfs don't, they have to buy a sorcerer if they want any magical protection.

Harwammer
22-03-2009, 23:01
Good thing nobody has "Hates Humans". :P
The dispel dice question is pretty clear cut, if they don't have the rule in their army list then they don't get the dispel dice. There isn't really a good argument for them getting it other than "they're Dwarfs", which is weak.
There's a precedent for this too, in the Man O War rules. Dwarf fleets get to dispel enemy magic without having wizards but the Chaos Dwarfs don't, they have to buy a sorcerer if they want any magical protection.

Dwarfs don't have this rule in their army list, so by your argument they don't get the dispel dice either.

Some people seem to be forgetting the rule for armys of Dwarfs getting bonus dispel dice is from the big rule book and is not even mentioned in the armybook.

As I said earlier it boils down to are 'Chaos Dwarfs' Dwarfs?

I can't answer that, but I can say if Chaos Dwarfs don't get bonus dispel dice then night goblins don't hate them. Likewise if Chaos Dwarfs are hated by night goblins then they get a dispel pool of 4 dice basic.

dlantoub
22-03-2009, 23:16
Chaos Dwarfs have sorcerors.

Perhaps we could house rule it and say they get 1 additional DD not 2.

Festus
22-03-2009, 23:19
Hi


...but I can say if Chaos Dwarfs don't get bonus dispel dice then night goblins don't hate them. Likewise if Chaos Dwarfs are hated by night goblins then they get a dispel pool of 4 dice basic.

I do fully agree here! (and on the subject of the Dwarf Gouger and similar as well ;) )

To me, Chaos Dwarfs are not Dwarfs in the rules-sense.
They only share the same basic statline and the -1 on flee and pursuit rolls.
They get 2 DD, are not hated by NGs, and do not qualify for being Dwarfs as a rules term.

This is the easiest way to handle a Chaos Dwarf Army: It is a normal Army with all its rules given in their list and only those rules that effect Chaos Dwarfs will effect them - not that there are too many of those :D

Greetings
Festus

Braad
22-03-2009, 23:30
Aha! For the first time I do not agree with festus.

As been noted here earlier, goblins 'fear elves', but it doesn't say which elves. So if 'hate dwarves' doesn't apply to chaos dwarves, because they have 'chaos' in their name and not only 'dwarves' as the NG rule says, then I think my goblins only fear 'elves' and not 'high-', 'wood-' or 'dark elves', because they are not just elves, but some different type like chaos dwarves seem to be a different type and exempt from such a rule in the same manner...

Remember chaos dwarves haven't been updated for a long time, so rules from current books migth not translate very well to the old lists. If you need to do that at all, ofcourse.

Harwammer
22-03-2009, 23:48
Braad: I don't really have a side to pick so I'll be devil's advocate to you for now.

While there is no army in warhammer simply called 'Elves', there is one called 'Dwarfs'. This means references to 'Elves' clearly means elves, where as references to 'Dwarfs' may mean exclusively Dwarfs (the moody ones) rather than dwarfs (the moody ones, the sadistic ones and the mercenary ones).

The problem with my argument is night goblins would only hate dwarfs from the Dwarf book, but they would have no problem with dwarfs from the DoW list (or CDs). This just seems wrong that a nightgoblin would forgive a dwarf for his mercenary lifestyle, but it would be a double standard to allow night goblins to hate non Dwarf dwarfs of one kind, but not another.

Regardless of the flaw in my argument. I still think there is room for discussion here if someone else would care expand.

wizuriel
23-03-2009, 00:02
Aha! For the first time I do not agree with festus.

As been noted here earlier, goblins 'fear elves', but it doesn't say which elves.

they do specify, goblins hate "elves of any kind"

Lord Zarkov
23-03-2009, 00:05
Given that when the current Chaos Dwarf list was released (in Ravening Hordes) the Dwarf Army's extra dice were granted in their army list (also in Ravening Hordes) and the Chaos Dwarfs clearly were not I think it's stretching it a bit to try and appy the extra DD to them now. I would go with the argument that 'Dwarfs' with a capital D refers to the army and not the race (even if that does include NG hatred, you can always house rule that if you want). CDs (and DOW) were almost certainly not on GW's mind when they made those books.
Like if you had say "Hates Tomb Kings" it would refer to the army not the character type.

Festus
23-03-2009, 11:16
Hi

Braad- unfortunately one can never always agree ;)

Well, to me, the NG Hatred is really a minor point in the rules for CDs.

I would personally allow it in any game I play (not that it matters much or makes much of a difference - they are NGs after all ;) ).
But in a rules sense, you will open a BIG can of worms, if you apply one rule from one Army Book referring to Dwarfs, and then you must also apply the BRB rule of CDs having four (4!) Dispel Dice as well by consistence. And this seems very wrong to me.

There is no question, that the relentless rule applies only to Dwarfs from the AB, and not to CDs, as they do not have it - or is there? :evilgrin:

Given the somewhat castrated nature of the CD armylist, the hatred of NG is a minor point, really: There are more pressing matters like the status of Bull Centaurs (Cavalry? Or on foot? Which Armour Save? Can they use the allowed option of additional Handweapon? etc.) or the exact time the Blunderbusses fire in a Stand&Shoot, or the exact effects of an Earthshaker hit (Halve Movement? Halve M characteristic? What happens to flyers? etc.)

All of those questions can find a satisfactory answer, I am sure.
But it is best IMO to keep it as simple as possible. And simple is, that the CDs first and foremost are not Dwarfs in the rules sense and that they are Dwarfs in the Fluff sense - albeit cruel and wicked ones...

Greetings
Festus

Urgat
23-03-2009, 12:16
Well, to me, the NG Hatred is really a minor point in the rules for CDs.

While this discussion has become too hair-pulled for me, I'd like to point out that it's a bit unfair to state that. It's certainly not a minor point for someone playing O&G against CD. I could consider all the instances of hatred to be a minor point and forget them as I see fit, if that were to be the case :/

OT: I believe the bull centaur status has been cleared in faqs a while ago, no?
edit: in the latest base reference sheet, they're indicated as being cavalry, btw. As for can they use their weapons, obviously they can, since their profile says they have this and may replace it with that. So they may, no? I'd slap anybody trying to tell me that they can have them but can't use them, really.
Considering they're cavalry, they get a 6+ save by default, then you add whatever they have, so they can get up to 3+, but don't get the hand weapon+shield bonus.
The rest I don't know :p (but for the earthsaker since it says you move at half rate, I'd assume that whatever your unit is, yuo take the movement you wanted to do, and halve it. I don't think it's that far-fetched).

Festus
23-03-2009, 13:06
Hi

The BCs status has been adressed in a GT FAQ a while ago - and not very satisfactorily:

If they are cavalry, they will get an Armour Save of 6+ basic, but will not be able to use the additional Handweapons ...

It is all mixed up with them.

I usually (if I agree with my oponent) play them as a kind of US2 Infantry.
This means that they follow all the rules for regular infantry with the exceptions that they cannot enter buildings and have US2 each.

Festus

Urgat
23-03-2009, 13:13
Well, it's in the new (march 2009) base and unit strenght reference sheet published on the french GW website (to be found there: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2440020_FRE_WH_Socles-PU-Type.pdf ). Bull centaurs are cavalry with US2. You can't make more official and uptodate than that I believe.

wizuriel
23-03-2009, 15:19
wow so in Europe which I thought you couldn't even use CD, they nerfed bull centuars into the ground. Guess time to make a 2nd earthshaker

Khorneflakes
24-03-2009, 08:39
my friend kevin is white, 6ft tall and has red hair, knows karate, is a great swimmer and is a maths wiz.

im white too 6ft tall and have red hair too, so therefore i know karate, can swim and im a maths wiz too!

im only white, 6ft tall and have red hair.

Urgat
24-03-2009, 10:07
While I understand your point, it is based on personal traits, which is wrong. I can claim that I am human, have two arms, two legs and two eyes, brains and a nose, and there's a very reasonable chance that you and everybody else share these particular points as you're a human too.
Rhetoric requires work more thoughts than that to work.

Cypher, the Emperor
24-03-2009, 22:53
I think its more along the lines of:

A white supremacist hates dark skinned people, he doesnt care if one person is from Egypt and one is from the South Pacific, to him they are all the same.

Much in the same way that to a night goblin a short, stocky dwarven looking fellow, be it a Clan Dwarf, a Dwarfen Mercenary or a Chaos Dwarf is all the same, they are dwarfs and they hate them.

Saying that the rule doesnt apply is like saying that your goblins don't fear Dark Elves because they aren't elves, they are Dark Elves! A dwarf is still a dwarf even when it gets twisted by evil sorcery, just like an elf is still an elf even if its a part tree, half fairy.