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kikkoman
20-03-2009, 09:06
Was wondering, what's the best of the worst? Every codex has those never-taken choices, that do too little for too many pts.

Flash gits for orks, possessed for chaos, storm troopers and ogryns for current IG, vespids for Tau

but... how would they fare against each other?
I guess I've always wanted to see armies of horrible models clash, to see if their collective suck balances out.

CthulhuDalek
20-03-2009, 09:16
Was wondering, what's the best of the worst? Every codex has those never-taken choices, that do too little for too many pts.

Flash gits for orks, possessed for chaos, storm troopers and ogryns for current IG, vespids for Tau

but... how would they fare against each other?
I guess I've always wanted to see armies of horrible models clash, to see if their collective suck balances out.

Exactly how do Flash Gitz suck compared to any of those options?

You're forgetting the everloving chaos spawn.

Harold Zoid
20-03-2009, 09:59
Repentia will suck as hard as they sucked before, every unit you have mentioned shines compared to them.

Hypaspist
20-03-2009, 10:09
Repentia will suck as hard as they sucked before, every unit you have mentioned shines compared to them.

This man speaks truth... 4+ sv, Initiative 1, no transport options and a propensity to charge off towards the nearest enemy.. *sniff*

Kurisu313
20-03-2009, 10:17
I love me Ogryn, and will not hear their name tarnished in this way!

3 Ogryn + bone'ead against two spawn (equal points)
Spawn Charge, Ogryn go first.
7 attacks, 4.66 hit, 3 wounds, spawn dies
spawn gets average 3.5+1 attack, 2.25 hit, 1.5 wounds, 1 unsaved.
spawn takes two more no retreat wounds, leaving it on 1.
Ogryns Win! And it wasn't even a challenge. (even rolling a six for attacks, it would still lose by 1)


Wow. Spawn REALLY suck.

The_Outsider
20-03-2009, 10:21
No unit sucks, it is a myth spread by those that do not understand how the unit functions within the codex.

This doesn't equate to them not having issues, but no unit is flatout useless.

Xelloss
20-03-2009, 10:27
Repentia could be a wonderful counter-charge unit if they didn't jump out of cover on every occasion...

Kurisu313
20-03-2009, 10:43
No unit sucks, it is a myth spread by those that do not understand how the unit functions within the codex.

This doesn't equate to them not having issues, but no unit is flatout useless.

Outsider, your two sentences seem to contradict each other. If no unit 'sucks', then surely they are without issues? Simply put, every unit has a function, but some are simply so poor at that function, that they are for all intents and purposes, worthless.

No unit is useless. I don't think anyone suggests that they are. But when you compare a spawn's points cost to what it can expect to achieve on the battlefield, it's just rubbish.

I'm a great proponent that any unit can and should be used, especially in non-competitive environs, but there is no escaping that some units are just under-achievers when compared to others.

GW are only human. Humans make mistakes. GW balance and playtest 40k units. Therefore, some units will be more or less powerful than others. To believe that every unit is perfectly balanced within it's niche in it's codex is simply wishful thinking, IMO

The_Outsider
20-03-2009, 10:55
Outsider, your two sentences seem to contradict each other. If no unit 'sucks', then surely they are without issues? Simply put, every unit has a function, but some are simply so poor at that function, that they are for all intents and purposes, worthless.

Every unit has a role, it doesn't mean they are massively effeceint at it. Not to mention many units true strength is how they fit in with other units, not what they do themselves.




No unit is useless. I don't think anyone suggests that they are. But when you compare a spawn's points cost to what it can expect to achieve on the battlefield, it's just rubbish.

That is assuming you are using them in the role they are best suited for - spawn are not frontline troops in the same way that berzerkers or possessed are. A chaos dread and spawn combo is hideous for the cost involved.


I'm a great proponent that any unit can and should be used, especially in non-competitive environs, but there is no escaping that some units are just under-achievers when compared to others.

"Predators are crap because I can get 3 times as many oblits in the list who packs as many lascannon as well as a host of other weapons"

Sanctjud
20-03-2009, 13:22
I love you The_Outsider, it's been what I've been trying to get through at Warseer on the possessed and lesser daemon discussions, and what I've been selling to 40K Online.

Most people view Lesser daemons as crap due to the stat-line and assuming that their only purpose is to rock in CC, and are then dissappointed when they don't.
That's not their role, they help the list in indirect ways (shutting down shooty units for a turn or 2, objectives, counter charge, providing cover saves, immpassible block by infantry unit.etc.

Though it's hard, if Repentia can do the counter charge role, it mitigates their poor defense and slow attack pace (remember you can't attack new charges if engaged with old squad in combat).

Etc. It takes more thought into using some units, more prior-thought to using some things. Some people want more than: Place a unit down, pointing a direction, and pressing go. (spawn do that for you :-D )

My 7 Cents.

the1stpip
20-03-2009, 13:33
And no one has mentioned Hellions?

Tymell
20-03-2009, 13:47
I'm in agreement with Outsider. Most "sucky" units are only considered such because people are trying to use them the wrong way, or because people only take a quick glance at the paper stats and think "OMG not all 4s?! That's rubbish!"

Of course, some units are more effecient than others, because the game will never be totally 100% balanced. But just because this is the case does not mean all units can neatly be pigeon-holed into "Great" and "Worthless".

However, some are no doubt going to be more effective overall than others. Dark Eldar Scourges is one unit I've heard often branded terrible. Although they've always had a soft spot in my heart, simply because it's won me many a game dropping them down somewhere and trashing my opponent's coveted tank/unit.

Necron Pariahs are another that seem to be loathed as too expensive for what they give. In terms of pitting these sort of units against one another, well I guess that's an issue of tactical balance like any other.

kaimarion
20-03-2009, 14:03
What exactly are spawn good for exactly? You can't even use them as a shield cause they are "slow & purposeful" not that you would want to considering the are half the cost of an oblit and don't even have an amour save. The only thing they are good for is combat and at WS3 and I3 they aren't exactly hard to beat. The only way I could see them working is if you take a small squad of 1-2 and hope they don't get shot at so they can go help some CSM in combat, it might work if you keep them behind the squad as anything shooting at the spawn from in front will grant them a 4+CS.

Nero
20-03-2009, 14:13
There are generally three reasons why units get considered useless;

1. They have a very specific niche, and if not used to fill that niche they underperform for their points costs.

2. They're not a bad unit, but something else in the codex does their role better and/or is cheaper.

3. They're just flat out useless. End of story.

C:CSM is a good example, as it has 3 units that fall into these categories.

Lesser daemons. They have a pretty specific niche - namely, DS and assaulting heavy weapons squads like Devastators to stop them from shooting for a turn or two while your army advances, or just to generally assault things to tie them up for a short while. They aren't a bad unit UNLESS you try to compare their killing power to things like CSMs - but then, they aren't supposed to be killing machines!

Possessed. They aren't a terrible unit exactly, but Berzerkers do the same thing better, are more reliable, and cost less. Oh, and Berzerkers are scoring units. In a competitive environment, there is absolutely no reason to take Possessed over Berzerkers. Still, you'd hardly be gimping yourself if you took them...

Spawn. Haha, I dare you to find a use for these. They have no role, unless 'automatically run toward the nearest enemy then die' is a role. Utterly worthless, the only niche they fill is being the worst unit in the entire game.

I can sort of see what people mean when they say 'there are no terrible units'. Yeah, some units just have a limited niche, or are overshadowed by better units. They're not bad though.

Then there are spawn. I dunno, maybe spawn are just the exception that prove the rule?

kurac
20-03-2009, 14:16
what is niche?

sliganian
20-03-2009, 14:28
what is niche?

If only there was a way to look up information on the Internet..... :rolleyes:

kurac
20-03-2009, 14:34
If only there was a way to answer questions......

Eater of Small Things
20-03-2009, 14:36
...
Spawn. Haha, I dare you to find a use for these. They have no role, unless 'automatically run toward the nearest enemy then die' is a role. Utterly worthless, the only niche they fill is being the worst unit in the entire game.

I can sort of see what people mean when they say 'there are no terrible units'. Yeah, some units just have a limited niche, or are overshadowed by better units. They're not bad though.

Then there are spawn. I dunno, maybe spawn are just the exception that prove the rule?

Quoted for truth. I've been experimenting with chaos spawn this month trying to divine some secret potential from them. So far the results are appalling. I've witnessed them fail in every aspect of their duty. Highlights (or lowlights, I guess?) include watching a unit of them impotently locked in combat with a drop pod for the entirety of a game. Another was watching a unit of them wiped out by a half-squad of guardsmen.

I think they are bad because once you set them on the table, your opponent actually has more control over them than you. And the greatest travesty: the plastic spawn kit is amazing and fun to build.

I'd rather take the Flash Gits or Possessed.

Morpholine
20-03-2009, 14:42
I don't know. The chaos spawn would probably fare pretty well against Aun'Va (you know, Mr. 'Shoot me to make half the tau army run away!').

The sad part is the space pope unit has NO shooting in an army designed to fail at CC.

captainramoz
20-03-2009, 14:50
First stormtroopers are quite cheap and not bad
Second orgryms make great shock troops
Third ratlings are the worst unit for ig
Fourth flas git do awesome if properly equiped

evilsponge
20-03-2009, 14:54
Normally I would agree, but Repentia are just fail. 25pts a model (min squad 10), str 6, t3, 4+ save that strikes last, even when they do get into CC the squad usually dies before it gets it's chance to attack (i've used them). There is no role in any army that repentia can do well and it is the biggest flop unit up there with chaos spawn.

Creeping Dementia
20-03-2009, 15:21
Um, how about like half of the options in the Witchhunter codex, Repentia has already gotten a mention, but Penitent Engines, Arco Flagellents, Priests, Inquisitors, Orbital Bombardment (a force org slot but not really a unit), and assassins are generally poor as well.

The_Outsider
20-03-2009, 15:22
Spawn remove practically all downsides of the chaos dread.

Arador
20-03-2009, 15:33
Um, how about like half of the options in the Witchhunter codex, Repentia has already gotten a mention, but Penitent Engines, Arco Flagellents, Priests, Inquisitors, Orbital Bombardment (a force org slot but not really a unit), and assassins are generally poor as well.

Arco Flagellants are nowhere near as bad as Penitent Engines, Repentia or Spawn. Fifth edition even improved them by allowing them to cover ground via running, without having to resort to an untimely activation of their crazy switch. And unlike most other units in this category, they can actually do their task with some degree of proficiency (in this case, numerous power weapon attacks at S5).

Daemonhosts, on the other hand are truly abysmal. High strength, lots of wounds, but T4 and a random ability that, to add insult to injury, changes every turn, so you never know what's going to happen. When the planets align just right and you get that tool for whatever situation you're in. Anecdotally, this has happened a few times to me. Once I got a Teleport just when I got mishapped into a forlorn corner of the table, and once, the big CC boost power when in charge range to a bunch of Kroot.

I like fielding them because the concept is strong, but I would love for GW to reconsider their rules whenever the Inquisition next gets a rules update. If ever.

Bookwrak
20-03-2009, 15:41
Repentia are really really bad. Expensive, flimsy, uncontrolled, require taking another, slightly iffy model in your army to even control in the first place, they really are just a point sink.


If only there was a way to answer questions......
It's basic English vocabulary. Educate yourself.

Somerandomidiot
20-03-2009, 15:55
Spawn remove practically all downsides of the chaos dread.

So the fact that you put them there to soak fire frenzy shots means they're useful? I suppose under that definition, the broken laptop on my desk is useful as a paperweight...

The_Outsider
20-03-2009, 16:00
So the fact that you put them there to soak fire frenzy shots means they're useful? I suppose under that definition, the broken laptop on my desk is useful as a paperweight...

Umm, yes.

Whether you believe it or not is another matter entirely, but such a combo does indeed work.

sydbridges
20-03-2009, 17:18
No unit sucks, it is a myth spread by those that do not understand how the unit functions within the codex.

This doesn't equate to them not having issues, but no unit is flatout useless.

Chaos Spawn would beg to differ. They're fluffy, but I don't think anyone can credibly argue that they have a function which isn't better fulfilled by something - anything - else.

Ok, I read further and see you're arguing they're good for soaking fire frenzy shots. I guess it's true, although you're basically saying, "Well, if I take this unit with some issues, then if I waste some points on this totally otherwise useless unit, then the issues of the first unit will only destroy something that is useless, so it's sort of better." You're basically giving Chaos Spawn a purpose by saying that because they're without purpose, you can use them as a fire magnet for your own troops, and thus they have a purpose.

That's still pretty useless. If the chaos codex had "Chaos lumps of useless flesh," which were five point, 1 for all stats, immobile lumps which you could stick in front of the dreadnaught, it would function at your use for Chaos Spawn better than Chaos Spawn (no risk of them wandering out of range of your dreadnaught), and for less points.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 17:19
No unit sucks, it is a myth spread by those that do not understand how the unit functions within the codex.

This doesn't equate to them not having issues, but no unit is flatout useless.

Pariah Suck the Big One. They probably are the best of the Worst units to ever be fielded though.

Trust me there's -nothing- Pariah do that Immortals or Flayed Ones do better (and Flayed ones suck too)

Vespid aren't worth their points, compared to say Fireknife, or even another box of Pathfinders.

Chaos Spawn are also entirely worthless. I tried to defend them at first... but after seeing them in action repeatedly by many players, and seeing how they suck in mathhammer in -every- scenario compared to -any- other unit in the CSM dex they aren't even worth the sprue they came on.

Ogryn in the new Ig Dex are going to suck hard, you are far better off just paying 6 more points per model and fielding GK Termies, for your heavy infantry/meat shield needs.

I would like to posit another entry in the Fail awards.

Krootoxes. They take the only marginal use of the kroot and toss it into the garbage.... non infiltrating kroot... yay....... :yuck:

sydbridges
20-03-2009, 17:21
Eh, I've gotten use out of my pariahs before. Once.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 17:27
Once and -use- doesn't mean they are even worth their points in the -one- scenario where your opponent wasn't smart enough to paste them before charging that flank of your army :p

sydbridges
20-03-2009, 17:34
Once and -use- doesn't mean they are even worth their points in the -one- scenario where your opponent wasn't smart enough to paste them before charging that flank of your army :p

In his defense, it was his first time playing against Necrons and he had no idea what Pariahs were. It was my first game against Eldar and his army was only partially assembled (and I swear his falcon either had four guns on it that he could pick between each turn or he was changing its weapon load out each turn), so it seemed like a fair trade. And the Pariahs helped solve my problem with "what the hell is on the Falcon?" with warscythes.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 17:38
I was so expecting that story to end with "WTF what do you mean my Banshees got no saves?" after using Warriors to Bait Banshees with. :D

Vedar
20-03-2009, 17:47
I bought a single spawn off ebay as the model is pretty cool and the new Chaos codex pretty much forces you to have a model with the gift of chaos power. I don't use it much but it is fun to turn your friends 200 point IC into a spawn.

Spawn fall under GS's WTF were you thinking?

How to improve it? Give it 3+d6 attacks. for its point cost it is almost 3 marines which get 9 attacks on the charge and you can control them. Give it rending. I know people think to much stuff has rending but as you can't control it you should give it the ability to hurt a vechice. Give it back its 5+ inv. Increase the point cost up to 50 if this playtests to well.

Now you have a unit people might respect instead of laughing for 5 min and thanking you for free victory points.

Nero
20-03-2009, 17:54
Umm, yes.

Whether you believe it or not is another matter entirely, but such a combo does indeed work.

No it doesn't. Spawn must always move toward the closest enemy, so they're terrible at this role. In fact, anything else in the codex would be better at this role through virtue of the fact that they can manage the herculean task of standing still.

Sorry, but the game actually isn't 100% balanced and it's all just the player's fault. That's... that's very, very wrong. :eyebrows:

Vampiric16
20-03-2009, 17:58
I find I must leap to the defense of the humble spawn. The key to using them effectively is spelt g-i-f-t-o-f-c-h-a-o-s. On numerous occasions my winged sorcerer (winged DP in larger games) has gotten up close to an enemy gun line and unleashed a spawn or two (managed four one time) into their ranks. That unit is stuck until it kills the spawn, no easy task when you're guard or tau. If it wipes out that unit, the enemy is forced to choose what to shoot: if they leave the spawn it will just assault another unit, but if they do shoot it the other, more powerful units are left untouched. And theres no garentee that it can be killed in one round of shooting.
In the game where I managed to create four of the blighters the tau player ended up with all his firewarrior units in cc, and his tanks being buggered by the sorcerer and his biker cronies. The rest was just a case of mopping up the survivors.

sydbridges
20-03-2009, 18:00
I was so expecting that story to end with "WTF what do you mean my Banshees got no saves?" after using Warriors to Bait Banshees with. :D

No, the Banshees died when he used them to assault the Nightbringer.

...this was shortly after the codex had first come out and I was playing with the various units to try and work out which ones would have any use for my playing style. Now, I only would ever field Nightbringer + Pariahs in an Apocalypse game. Or if I'd suffered head trauma.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 18:03
ahhhh. so Codex Shock hadn't worn off yet. Gotcha. I was wondering I was like "Man that would be a wet dream come true, someone assaulting my Nightbringer... especially with Banshees"

Nero
20-03-2009, 18:22
I find I must leap to the defense of the humble spawn. The key to using them effectively is spelt g-i-f-t-o-f-c-h-a-o-s.

We're refering to the unit entry for Spawn. That is, paying 40pts for a Spawn that deploys with the rest of your army.

Gift of Chaos is a great psychic power. It'd be worth 30pts for the power alone, the Spawns are a freebie! Not even Spawn suck so bad I wouldn't take them for free. :D

It's an important distinction, because they're effectively seperate units that share the same stats but have different point costs and deployment. Nobody is arguing that Gift of Chaos is terrible (because it isn't), they're arguing that the Spawn FoC choice is terrible.

zanotam
20-03-2009, 18:37
I know for Eldar all but Spiders in the FA all function really as 'poor alternatives to x' with Hawks highlighting this as a master of nought jack of all, which kinda sucks in an army overflowing with masters of x and y. That is partially related to the changes in 5th though.

The_Outsider
20-03-2009, 20:35
Wow, I never there were so many people who lacked the imagination to actively find uses for units.

Regardless of spawn (I get the impression that debate won't end soon) pariahs are what necrons call in when someone goes "surprise, I play seer council eldar/daemons of chaos/deathwing"

Pariahs are very good at what they do, they jsut have a fairly small niche, though this is mostly due to the rest of the necrons codex being fairly flawed.

evilsponge
20-03-2009, 20:57
Niche units are great if you are playing a tailored list and know what you are coming up against, but in tourny's you have to be ready for anything, and that's where these units fall flat on their face. Saying a unit isn't as effective for it's points doesn't show a lack of imagination, it's just seperating the wheat from the chaff.

The_Outsider
20-03-2009, 21:05
I forgot that tourny play =/= the be all and end all of deciding if a unit is "good".

evilsponge
20-03-2009, 21:07
I forgot that tourny play =/= the be all and end all of deciding if a unit is "good".

some of us don't have that option :)

sydbridges
20-03-2009, 21:11
...pariahs are what necrons call in when someone goes "surprise, I play seer council eldar/daemons of chaos/deathwing"

Pariahs are very good at what they do, they jsut have a fairly small niche, though this is mostly due to the rest of the necrons codex being fairly flawed.

I've tried that. The problem is they have TERRIBLE initiative for that sort of thing. Here's how it actually goes:

"SURPRISE! PARIAHS!"
"SURPRISE, I GO FIRST! SURPRISE, ALL OR MOST OF YOUR PARIAHS ARE DEAD! SURPRISE, YOU LOST COMBAT! SURPRISE, MAKE YOUR NO RETREAT SAVES!"

At Init 3, they have a terrible tendency to first receive a vicious beating, and then what little remains doesn't do enough damage to help. I have played the "Let's charge your lightning claw terminators with my pariahs, that will show you!" game, it doesn't end well.

I like the idea, but they either need more attacks so that when they receive their vicious beating, what remains can actually retaliate effectively, or a higher init so that anything you would want to use them on doesn't go first. I have had the 'imagination' to try them, but they've been relegated to 'friendly games where I don't really care if I win, I just want to use the models that I think are awesome,' which is mostly Apocalypse these days.

Count de Monet
20-03-2009, 21:18
The OP and others might also like this thread:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171775&highlight=overpriced

zanotam
20-03-2009, 21:26
Actually, I do believe that the entire point of this thread was just for fun to see which units commonly considered 'underpowered/overpriced/t3h5uck/etc." are really UP and which ones are simply difficult to use or just have a bad rep.

The_Outsider
20-03-2009, 21:51
I've tried that. The problem is they have TERRIBLE initiative for that sort of thing. Here's how it actually goes:

"SURPRISE! PARIAHS!"
"SURPRISE, I GO FIRST! SURPRISE, ALL OR MOST OF YOUR PARIAHS ARE DEAD! SURPRISE, YOU LOST COMBAT! SURPRISE, MAKE YOUR NO RETREAT SAVES!"

Which makes them a good counter to seer councils (namely because witchblades do not ignore armour) so the mentioned dying doesn't occur.


At Init 3, they have a terrible tendency to first receive a vicious beating, and then what little remains doesn't do enough damage to help. I have played the "Let's charge your lightning claw terminators with my pariahs, that will show you!" game, it doesn't end well.

I'm surprised anyone would even contemplate that - pariahs counter powerfist and thunder hammer terminators, not ones with lighting claws.

sydbridges
20-03-2009, 22:47
Which makes them a good counter to seer councils (namely because witchblades do not ignore armour) so the mentioned dying doesn't occur.



I'm surprised anyone would even contemplate that - pariahs counter powerfist and thunder hammer terminators, not ones with lighting claws.

Powerfist or thunder hammer terminators? Not sure I've ever actually seen them fielded. Terminators have lightning claws and usually disembark from an LRC. It's like, the rule.

That said, I'm willing to bet the same problem would happen with daemons of Chaos, unless you were facing a Nurgle-themed army, since virtually everything in that army goes before the Pariahs and is usually much cheaper.

Basically, I see Pariahs as having a fairly niche ideal target. You want:
Something with low init or a low number of attacks
Something with a decent enough save that spamming immortals wouldn't have been a better option (probably combined with enough wounds to make spam fire less worthwhile, but not too many, since even a squad of 10 pariahs maxes out at a mighty 20 attacks on the charge)
and
Something worth throwing really expensive -points wise- models at

Like an assaulty carnifex.

Or:
A tank which you aren't content to just shake every turn with some other, cheaper, unit

They just don't have the utility to justify putting them into an army list unless you are tailoring your list to an opponent who you know will be fielding something worth using them on. A smaller unit can usually be replaced by a squad of immortals at the same points and have more effect, and a larger unit begs the question, "Why not field the nightbringer instead?" who has fewer attacks but a high enough weapon skill and strength that they tend to all or mostly wound, along with a high toughness and an invulnerable save to keep him from getting beaten before he kills something.

I like the unit. I think the rules are fluffy, they give an image of them wielding these slow, ponderous, unwieldly weapons that cut through whatever they hit. I like the models. They just don't actually function very well in game. Pariahs aren't 'terrible', but they suffer from a sort of 'anything I can do, someone in my list either does better, or you don't really need someone to do most of the time' problem. They're no Chaos Spawn.

The_Outsider
21-03-2009, 01:33
Powerfist or thunder hammer terminators? Not sure I've ever actually seen them fielded. Terminators have lightning claws and usually disembark from an LRC. It's like, the rule.

Honestly I find that hard to believe, powerfist or thunderhammer (and storm shiled) terminators were good in the last codex and pariahs are the perfect counter ot them.

Especially now storm shields give a 3+ save pariahs beat down them like no other.


That said, I'm willing to bet the same problem would happen with daemons of Chaos, unless you were facing a Nurgle-themed army, since virtually everything in that army goes before the Pariahs and is usually much cheaper.

Very true, I never said pariahs didn't have issues, but they perform a roll only 2 other models in the necorns lsit can (the c'tan, which themslves have issues).




Basically, I see Pariahs as having a fairly niche ideal target.

This doesn't make them bad though.




They just don't have the utility to justify putting them into an army list unless you are tailoring your list to an opponent who you know will be fielding something worth using them on.

Not just pariahs, anyone can make any unit work if they keep at it and play a good number of games to understand how units work within the list in question.

Whether they "make the cut" in a list is pointless, since if someone wants a unit in a use will be found for the, therefore rendering the tag of "useless" obsolete.

I don't mean to pick on you (just using the quote), but it pisses me off no end how so many posts on warser completely revolve around the concept of "if it isn't the most effeceint unit at X, it must be crap!". This isn't to say every unit is correctly costed, but nothing is flatout useless - not to mention how good a unit is dramatically changes depending on the points level (terminators are a prime example - at 1500 they are really kind of meh unless you build a list around. but at higher or lower points they rock).

This attitude leads to tunnel vision in list building (or "cookie cutter") just because a daemon prince is good, doesn't mean it is better than the chaos lord every. single. goddamn. time. If you know what you are doing a chaos lord can be farm ore pwoerful, but such a thing does not come over in an army list well (it is more how the army is played) and requires more thought than "move forwards, charge, ???? win!".

A well rounded list can demolish 2 daemons princes (lash or otherwise), but a chaos lord can be far harder to stop. This principle applies to a great many units in most of the codices.



Why not field the nightbringer instead?" who has fewer attacks but a high enough weapon skill and strength that they tend to all or mostly wound, along with a high toughness and an invulnerable save to keep him from getting beaten before he kills something.

Well, that cannot really be answered unless one looks at the necron list in question and the points level. At 1500 pointas pariahs are questionable, but at say, 2000 points they start to really shine.


or you don't really need someone to do most of the time' problem.

That is their problem.

Vandelan
21-03-2009, 02:35
I can't believe anyone would defend Chaos Spawn...

Possessed, I can kind of see considering they look like a decent unit on paper, but not Spawn...

Cuda
21-03-2009, 04:13
Wow! Terrible units, I love 'em! Hellions, Scourges, Repentias, Penitent engines, Spawn & Possessed!
Possessed haven't failed me yet, they are absolutely awesome on assault support, I just figure that they are beef-up Chaos Marines and the die roll is an extra goody.
Repentia's supported by the engine is great! Hellions and Wyches are excellent tag-team shock troops. You can't measure these units alone, they all support another unit.

Cuda...send me you terrible units

Sanctjud
21-03-2009, 04:46
Well, spawn require more though in placement...much like thinking ahead with chess.

You need to place it in front of terrain or has terrain along it's most likely path to the closest enemy, that mitigates it's lack of armor for the meantime.

At the end of the day, you have a random, BUT a long reaching unit, that is str 5.
Certainly hitting infantry can suck, but their prime targets are usually:

AV10 rear armor vehicles and GEQ.
Wounding on 6's is certainly annoying for the enemy...while str 5 is enough to penetrate that rear 10.

Basically, though they are not as points efficient and role flexible/specialised, they do work.

I know in my 'Crap Legion' spawn have been allstars.

Charging an immobilzed falcon, and humping the back armor, prevening harlies from coming out and slowly killing it, in his turn the spawn destroy the falcon, harlies emergency disembark, I charge the harlies, they could only wound on 6's and proceeded to die.
Then theycharge 21" into a seer council along with possessed and butchered them in weight of dice.
THe council couldn't hit the spawn, because they were each in b2b/engaged with the possessed beforehand.

Another game, theycharge an immobilzed monolith's door.....and stayed there. The necron player was VERY annoyed.

Against IG they had a field day of 2 round combats and just yo-yoing around as my opponent though they were crap and didn't shoot them until it was too late. Sure they took wounds along the way, but tying up his guns was good for the rest of my army.

In Crap Legion Mark3. I used a 40 Spawn list at 2000 points....vs Gunline Tau, horribly messy. My opponent was inexperienced with spawn, and said something I'd never thought I would hear:

"Spawn are cheesy". BUT, as the game progressed, I rolled real bad and lost combat to Tau and started to take lots of no retreat, coupled with fudgeing 70% of my cover saves.

Turn 5: I was ahead a kill point.
Turn 6: We were draw.
Turn 7: A spawn killed itself by losing combat by one, and having only one wound, and so died and gave up it's kill points.

The game ended with me having 6 spawn, and my opponent running away with his Suit commander. We basically smashed into each other and canceled each other out.

So...moral of the story, Spawn are fun and need more thought and/or target satuatation. If left to their own devices, and you have supporting fire to eliminate units you don't want it to charge, it can work nicely.
You just don't want to expect the world out of them.

It's more like the other options outshine them, and the shadows of the last codex are still lurking around.

My 7 Cents.

holmcross
21-03-2009, 05:38
Necron Warriors are pretty awful, as much as an MEQ statline can suck. They serve a purpose only because the are compulsory.


Especially now storm shields give a 3+ save pariahs beat down them like no other.

If Pariahs had 2 attacks I'd be a bit more inclined to agree. 1 attack per, hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 3+. Bleh. And after that, the Pariahs will be lit up by the TH termies.

Dark Apostle197
21-03-2009, 05:53
Funny thing about Spawns. I once brought them in a game to make a fluffy Word Bearers list (so had lesser daemons too). Forgot to set them up. Didn't realize I didn't until it popped into my head hours after game. Still won.

Just think if they were there. Maybe I would have lost :P

kikkoman
21-03-2009, 17:44
Actually, I do believe that the entire point of this thread was just for fun to see which units commonly considered 'underpowered/overpriced/t3h5uck/etc." are really UP and which ones are simply difficult to use or just have a bad rep.

Yeah, and also often the 'terrible' units are compared to the ridiculously great units directly.

I wanted to compare the bottom to the bottom basically

Such as...

what's better at killing marines? Vespids or Flash gits?
Who would win in hth, pariahs or repentia?

sydbridges
21-03-2009, 19:07
Who would win in hth, pariahs or repentia?

Hrm. I'm willing to bet a full sized squad of pariahs could beat a full sized squad of repentia, but I'm dubious (don't own the WH codex, so I can't know for sure) that a full sized squad of pariahs and a full sized squad of repentia (assuming a full squad has ten models - again, don't have the codex to compare) have comparable costs.

Assuming the dice are entirely average (and taking all of the above assumptions):

The pariahs would go first at I3, have either ten or twenty attacks depending on who charged who, and would (if the statline in the BRB is to be believed) be hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 2+. So roughly half of the attacks would hit, of those, roughly 5/6ths should wound, so assuming the Pariahs charged, they should be expected to cause roughly 8 wounds (8.33 for the mathhammer inclined), or 4ish wounds if they were charged. If repentia come in squads of ten, they would then have two or six models left, with either one attack (was charged) or two attacks (was the charger). If they were charged, they have two attacks total, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, causing an expected less than one wound (.666), and if they charged, they have twelve attacks, and should be expected to cause around 4 wounds. Assuming they don't ignore armor saves (doesn't say in the back of the BRB), the pariahs then get a 3+ armor save, and can be expected to make 2.66 saves, so an average of one dead. And if the pariahs charged and the Repentia don't ignore armor saves, then the .666 wounds would have a 2/3rd chance of saving, so you'd be averaging less than one dead pariah.

Obviously, in the second round of combat, since there are likely somewhere around 8-10 pariahs and somewhere around 4-6 repentia left, the Pariahs can be expected to win the combat.

As said at the beginning, though, without knowing how much a squad of repentia costs, it's hard to evalulate whether or not this is an unexpected outcome. If a repentia is (for example) 10 points a model, for instance, then a fairer comparison would be against three and a half times as many repentia, which would greatly change the number of attacks and thus change the final outcome of said fight.

captainramoz
21-03-2009, 21:39
Repentia are awesome nominal power\chainfist for all the squad, quite an iconic unit strike the nearest oponent and a 4+ invulnerable save.
Penitent engines and arco flagelant have a d6 yes u heard well a d6 attack thats a bunch of attack or at least a decent amount of attacks.
Besides in 1500 points 25 points ain't much.

PapaDoc
22-03-2009, 16:35
Umm, yes.

Whether you believe it or not is another matter entirely, but such a combo does indeed work.

I don't think this is good advice.

The dread can't turn back and shoot your own troops. "...At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest VISIBLE unit.

It fires what it can see 45 degrees from its weapon mounts. So by not putting anything in front of the dreadnaught you save yourself 40 points.

In killpoint missions it's better that some csm take the two melta shots in the ass instead of a spawn.

Cuda
22-03-2009, 17:37
Hrm. I'm willing to bet a full sized squad of pariahs could beat a full sized squad of repentia, but I'm dubious (don't own the WH codex, so I can't know for sure) that a full sized squad of pariahs and a full sized squad of repentia (assuming a full squad has ten models - again, don't have the codex to compare) have comparable costs.

Don't forget the Mistress with Initiative 5, 4 attacks on a charge. Neural Whip is a power weapon too. The way I play mine is that the squad is supported by a Priest and a Penitent engine.

Cuda...

Imperius
22-03-2009, 17:42
Ratlings are really good. They don't look threatening whatso-ever and you get the extra cover-save, making up for its atrocious toughness. Veterans cost a tiny bit more than Ratlings and still don't get +1 coversave, unless you want to be cameleoline for your whole army.

Cuda
22-03-2009, 17:44
I don't think this is good advice.

The dread can't turn back and shoot your own troops. "...At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest VISIBLE unit.

It fires what it can see 45 degrees from its weapon mounts. So by not putting anything in front of the dreadnaught you save yourself 40 points.

In killpoint missions it's better that some csm take the two melta shots in the ass instead of a spawn.

Hmnnn? A Lash Whip Prince and an unstable Chaos Dread can be mighty handy. At the beginning of the turn when you roll for the Dread and it goes ballistic you can lash a unit near the Dread. This is one tactic I use, since my Emperor's Children Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamer Dread seems to always go Ballistic.

Cuda...

Cuda
22-03-2009, 17:50
I can't believe anyone would defend Chaos Spawn...

Possessed, I can kind of see considering they look like a decent unit on paper, but not Spawn...

For me the best aspect of Spawn are the models, they are really great! I will buy more and more on just the look of the models. Gaming wise, I like the fact that you can can place them in difficult terrain, Lash a unit near them and go have some fun. Sure they die, expensive and no save, but for me the look of the models and the enjoyment of building and painting them overides their apparent weakness by far.

Cuda...