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Wolf 11x
20-03-2009, 15:01
Hey everyone,

You may have seen me mention this in another post. I play with an Ogre Kingdom player who loves his army, but is tired of feeling as if he doesn't have a fighting chance on the field! We've begun looking into other armies for him to play and it seems the Dark Elves may be a solid choice. However, no one around here plays Dark Elves and he doesn't want to just jump in and buy an Army Book, etc.

Can you please explain:

1) Does the army truly excel at melee and does it have solid infantry? That is the kind of army he wants to field. If so, what kind of units do you take? Warriors appear to be decent and we're quite sold on the Hatred rule.

2) What are the "broken" aspects of the army? 2 Hydras? While he wants to have a stronger army, he wants to field a balanced list. Otherwise, he would be going Demons! :evilgrin:

3) It seems a lot of models are plastic. Is this army any more or less expensive than any other army? Cost is a slight consideration.

4) How is the fluff?

Couldn't find another thread giving these sorts of details. The only link I found was broken.

Thanks in advance. As we come up with further questions, we'll post them here.

W0lf
20-03-2009, 15:59
1) Black guard are currently one of if not the best infantry units in the game. I personally think DE warriors are a steal for their points. Whilst exs are not optimal they can also be pretty effective given an assasin or run MSU.

2) Broken stuff;

Dual hydras
Dragon lord with pendant
Ring of hotek
Black guard or shade death stars.

Tbh just write a list post it and we can tell. Most of these things arnt broken on their own, its when they are put together in one list. Taking a heavy corsair army with Executioners, a lone lvl 4 with pendant and 2 hydras isnt suddenly broken by the hydras.

If you go for a theme the chances are it will be fine.

3) The cost is pretty similar to most armies tbh. As a rule i like to think a 2K fantasy army should cost ~200.

4) I really like DE but the 7th fluff kinda bored me tbh. All it seemed to be was '50 billion DEs attacked HE it was the biggest battle ever, the DE got wrecked'.... '100 billion DE attacked HE and 1/4 died to the first HE volley....' Oh and btw DE are a dying race.

Kinda dullsvile. However if you avoid that bit its got some nice short story stuff. I liked the fluff in the 6th book more.

lakissov
20-03-2009, 18:00
1. It is very solid at melee, although it also has some very good shooting and magic capabilities (but if you ask me, antimagic DE are more competitive than magic-heavy). It does have very good infantry.
- I have been fielding warriors a lot already in the previous edition, and in this one they have only become better than before.
- Corsairs are not too great, but a unit with the frenzy banner can have its uses (it's a very good target for bestowing Killing Blow by the cauldron).
- Black guard with the ASF banner are one of the things generally considered cheesy. However, they are good without the ASF banner too. Being stubborn and immune to psychology, they are a good anvil, and frankly speaking they need to ASF only against high elves - against other armies a capable general don't need them to ASF really.
- Executioners are often underestimated (people tend to compare them to Black guard), but in my opinion they are a very reasonable alternative to Cold One Knights - they are an excellent hammer unit. If you do have enough supporting units, and use them correctly, to ensure that it's the executioners who make the charge, they will totally rock (especially if blessed with +1A from the cauldron).
- Crossbowmen with shields are excellent multipurpose infantry, which can eliminate enemy light support very well, and which are decent in CC (with 4+ armor save).
- Shades are also an excellent support infantry unit, which shoots extremely well, and which can do serious damage on the charge (as they can take great weapons).

additionally, dark elves have core flying skirmishers - the ultimate redirecting unit, which can help you ensure that you infantries don't get charged, and charge themselves.

2. Broken things are:
- unkillable dragon lord
- double hydras
- ASF blackguard (except when taken agains Asur)
- Shade deathstar
ring is not broken unless you load seriously on magic defense; it's merely a countermeasure against cheesy all-out-magic armies (which are no fun to play against anyway, so let them suffer).
frankly speaking, a competent general needs none of these (not even a single hydra), unless going against daemons

3. some of the models that are important for the army are metal (and hence more expensive than desired). A good example is dark riders, who are quite important for support. However, there are plenty of ways to convert dark riders, shades and even executioners from plastic. I have seen some absolutely amazing convertions of shades with great weapons made from druchii, asur and asrai plastic bits on druchii.net, and also some very decent conversions of dark riders from glade riders.

4. I agree with W0lf, the fluff became worse in this edition than in the previous. If previously druchii were described as elite warriors, then now this role has been given over to the asur, while for druchii the GW emphasizes viciousness. Still, the story is good, and it's anyway up to you to decide how you view the history of dark elves. I, for example, still view Malekith as a lawful king who was betrayed by the scheming nobility of the asur court (remember, in the previous edition asur were described as extremely mischievous ever-scheming politicians; they even had a special rule to reflect this), and only due to this fell from grace. So to me the story of druchii is not all about mindless anger but all about righteous fury.

Edit
20-03-2009, 18:14
ignore the book fluff and read the Malus Darkblade series by Abnett and Lee, instant feel for DE as they should be imo.

Archaon
20-03-2009, 18:22
1) Does the army truly excel at melee and does it have solid infantry? That is the kind of army he wants to field. If so, what kind of units do you take? Warriors appear to be decent and we're quit sold on the Hatred rule.

I'd not say they excel at close combat (that may be Chaos Warriors or other high elite armies) but throughout the army they are quite good at it and you have means to boost that (banners, the Cauldron etc). DE can be quite good in all phases of the game if you want to and design your army that way. Magic heavy is easy to do (though very risky because the amount of dice you'll be using means a high chance of miscasts), shooting is a hallmark of the DE (4 Repeater Bolthrowers + a sh... load of XBow Warriors makes everyone cautious to advance) or close combat (Cold One Knights, Chariots, Hydras,elite infantry, Highborn + Dragon/Manticore) are all viable options.

Personally i use a mix of Dark Riders with XBows (very fast and very annoying for the opponent.. with Hatred you may even attempt a flank charge on their own against ranked infantry), Warriors (cheap for their options and purpose) and Harpies (i now field between 10 and 15 in each army) which forms the core of my army. I fill that up with "killy" units like Cold Ones, Chariots and a Hydra and use the rest of the points on characters and whatever else i want to try.


2) What are the "broken" aspects of the army? 2 Hydras? While he wants to have a stronger army, he wants to field a balanced list. Otherwise, he would be going Demons! :evilgrin:


I'd consider the Hydra a bit imbalanced.. for 175 points you get a regenerating, flame breathing, 7 hatred attack with 3+ scaly skin armor and T5 monster. It is very tough and can easily rip through good skirmishers (last game against WE it scythed through like a hot knife through butter) or even cavalry on its own.

The Pendant of Khaeleth is very broken too (you get an inverse Ward save depending on the strength of the attack.. basically you save any attack of S5 or higher unless you roll a 6 which fails automatically for 35 points).

The only other thing is still up for debate until an official FAQ or ruling.. Assassins with Throwing Stars.. together with one of their poisons which increases strength it is debated if he has now a S6 or S7 ranged attack.

The rest is ok.. there's a ton of army configurations that are both fun yet competitive. I'd say the DE are one of the most variable armies out there that can compete with top tier armies.


3) It seems a lot of models are plastic. Is this army any more or less expensive than any other army? Cost is a slight consideration.


Depends on how you want to play them.. the basics are covered with plastics, i.e. Warriors, Corsairs and Cold One Knights but i'm afraid that the rest is pure metal so it may not be the cheapest army out there.

Maybe there will be a 2nd wave with plastic Dark Riders and plastic Harpies which would make this army quite affordable.


4) How is the fluff?

To be honest.. i have the book since release day and haven't really read the "new" background. You can only read about the schism and the civil war so many times before it becomes old.

rottahn
20-03-2009, 18:34
1) Does the army truly excel at melee and does it have solid infantry? That is the kind of army he wants to field. If so, what kind of units do you take? Warriors appear to be decent and we're quit sold on the Hatred rule.

2) What are the "broken" aspects of the army? 2 Hydras? While he wants to have a stronger army, he wants to field a balanced list. Otherwise, he would be going Demons! :evilgrin:

3) It seems a lot of models are plastic. Is this army any more or less expensive than any other army? Cost is a slight consideration.

4) How is the fluff?
.

1) with DE, you can play solid infantry or solid cavalry. 3 units of 30 spearelves are a good anchor for a block of 20 black guard with your lord in it. also if you want a more mobile force, you could do two units of crossbowmen, and then some dark riders to back up your awesome cold one knights.

2) two hydras is really devastating. one hydra is powerful, but not overpowered.
3) cost is relative to the army you want. if you go infantry heavy, it will be more expensive than a cavalry force.
4) the fluff isnt as good as it could be. i dont like the whole "evil just because we can" aspect. or the whole "we're so evil we hate everything". at any rate, the stories behind the schism between HE and DE is cool, though.

The SkaerKrow
20-03-2009, 19:29
From the sounds of it, I think that your friend would honestly be better off playing Lizardmen. Perhaps the best overall infantry in the game (Saurus Warriors), plenty of plastic kits, lots of viable builds and some fairly unique back-story behind the army.

Dark Elf infantry is fairly mediocre. Dark Elf Warriors (Spear and Crossbow versions) are comparatively cheap, Black Guard are decent on their own and pretty good when kitted out, but the rest of their infantry is exceptionally situational at best. The army currently endures a lot of unfair prejudice, so getting to the bottom of what is actually overpowered in the book is difficult. While they do have a fair number of plastic kits, their Bolt Throwers, Black Guard and Dark Riders are all currently metal figures, and at least one of these units factor prominently into the majority of the Dark Elf builds that you're likely to see. As for the back-story...in all honesty, reading the fiction in the newest Dark Elf book almost put me off of playing the army. They're basically presented as the sorriest bunch of losers in all of Warhammer in this most recent volume. They take slaves because they're all professional soldiers and don't know how to perform simple artisan tasks, and yet they lose damn near every single war that they get involved in? Yeah, that's real inspiring :rolleyes:.

Yep, I'd suggest Lizardmen.

Conotor
20-03-2009, 23:02
IMO the most broken aspect of DE is 4 RBTs. If you are faceing an ealeat army, you can bacicaly eliinate 1 unit a turn...

Wolf 11x
21-03-2009, 04:19
The only problem with Lizardmen is that I'm already using them and have been for 7 years. He wants an army no one else has.

dannyfave
21-03-2009, 05:31
Core
...........
2x5 dark riders with crossbows
2x 20 spearmen
2x 10 rbxbowmen
2x 5 Harpies

Special
-------------
18 black guard
2x5 coldone knight with musician

rare
---------
2 reaper bolt throwers

This is what I start my army with and then go from there, I have not lost a game with them since the new book came out (and barly before then aswell.)

Wolf 11x
22-03-2009, 17:54
I showed him the above list and it seems quite powerful. Are the two repeater bolt throwers entirely necessary? Also, what kind of characters would be fielded with this army? We were thinking a Dreadlord on Foot with the Ring of Hotek and a Scroll Caddy.

Thanks in advance.

Godfiend
22-03-2009, 20:09
It's 2 bolt throwers for one rare slot, so it's not really overpowered, and more ways to impale enemies on giant spears is generally a good thing.

I'd advise against using the Ring of Hotek in more friendly games ;). Also, Dark Elf magic is pretty good, so a lord sorcerer might be some fun.

Rubicon
22-03-2009, 20:50
To avoid being broken don't use the following items:

1. Standard of Hag Graef
2. Pendant of Khaleth
3. Ring of Hotek

and it is very difficult to accuse you of being cheesy. Without those items the Dark Elves are as balanced as anyone else.

Chainaxe07
22-03-2009, 23:10
I have a few of them as i like the models, but i play WoC and my next project is Lizardmen (just too good an army to miss!).
Still i regularly play against them, and know the army well.
Their infantri is fairly average, definitely not the best you can get (actually not even close!).
However your average spearman has one thing on his side: he is relatively cheap.
This enables you to build a few decent sized units without going bankrupt on points.
Crossbowmen tend to be more expensive, but a few can be useful, and can remove screening units pretty fast.
Elite infantry are not too shabby, alas witch elves are really useful only agains low t low as targets, usually stuff that costs less than themselves...executioners can be good, but you'll need to back them up.
Black guard are about the only elite infantry that can manage things by itself.
Cavalry, on the other hand, is quite good.
Dark riders are fast, agile and can be a real nuisance, also they can flank/rear charge if you let them. Not very hard hitting, but a decent tool in your arsenal.
Cold ones are also brillinat. They are stupid, but have a basic ld of 9, cause fear and hit as hard as most other heavy cavalries. Thumb up.
The chariot is also pretty decent, with crew with black guard stats.
Hydras i never faced, while multiple rbts are a fairly common sight (2, 4 or even 6!), and can be a real pain in the side.
Harpies are not very useful, but can distract or march block you.
Characters are not very hard, but you can field reasonably survivable lords (pendant + regeneration or pendant + extra wound). This wont help them hit any harder however, and if your opponent does not waste time and resources trying to kill him he is just a waste of points.
Sorceresses wield a lot of power but are frail and ...well, naked!
You may consider this last thing when playing young opponents.
Hope this helps, cheers

Rubicon
22-03-2009, 23:19
Harpies are not very useful, but can distract or march block you.


Woah there, Harpies are one of the best units in the game! Cheap flying core choice that can redirect, screen, marchblock, hunt warmachines and use the general's leadership whilst not causing panic....Gold!

Chainaxe07
22-03-2009, 23:30
Woah there, Harpies are one of the best units in the game! Cheap flying core choice that can redirect, screen, marchblock, hunt warmachines and use the general's leadership whilst not causing panic....Gold!

Cheap..compared to what?
As for the rest well i agree, that's what i meant when i said "distract and march block".
But i think dark riders can achieve more and are an all round better support unit.
Also the harpy models are really bad...that's a shame as the rest of the range is quite brilliant.

Wolf 11x
23-03-2009, 02:21
I think he means cheap compared to other flyers. I currently pay 30 points per Terradon, for example.

orkz222
23-03-2009, 08:45
http://www.druchii.net/ for more info

1) Thier infantry are quite specialized, offensive but fragile

2)chessy stuffs - dual hydra, pendant of 35pts
hatred for all non-dark elf like hydra/dragon etc???

3)cost wise, quite cheap to get a decent army, u can get 2 army boxes and you have around 1k-1.5k. All the troops inside the army box are useful. Add some metal characters and some metal blisters, u can hit 2k easily.

Of course not as cheap as OK...

4) fluff wise they are angry elves :)

nosferatu1001
23-03-2009, 14:09
Very good, can be very highly manouverable which is a bonus. COK hit very hard (especially with hydra banner BSB in there, or with Cauldron nearby) and hatred helps avoid the "bounce" effect.

Pendant et al are not individually broken, its the combinations that are. Pendant on a level 4 sorceress is a good use, and definitely ok. ring of hotek on your COK pushing forwards...less good.

szlachcic
23-03-2009, 18:54
Very good, can be very highly manouverable which is a bonus. COK hit very hard (especially with hydra banner BSB in there, or with Cauldron nearby) and hatred helps avoid the "bounce" effect.

Pendant et al are not individually broken, its the combinations that are. Pendant on a level 4 sorceress is a good use, and definitely ok. ring of hotek on your COK pushing forwards...less good.

I agree, everyone keeps saying the Pendant is overpowered and cheesy, but that is not always the case. I run one on my Sorc Lord just to give her some protection and have never had a complaint.

Also, I run a dual hydra list. However this was chosen due to the theme of my army and was decided before ever seeing any of the new rules or points costs. I think it is a strong choice, but in the context of my specific list I don't see it as overpowered. It is more of a combination of these different things. If I had an army with a Dragon riding Dreadlord w/ Pendant, 2 hydras, a Ring of Hotek, ASF Black Guard, Shade Deathstar etc. then it might be more of a problem.

So, just tell your friend to keep these percieved imbalances in mind when he is building a list. You can make some extremely killer lists that are not fun to play against with the book, but it also provides a lot of fun choices and is a great army to play IMO. Just make sure he realizes that DE units in general are very fragile so I have found that you need to be pretty aggressive with the army to do well.



The only other thing is still up for debate until an official FAQ or ruling.. Assassins with Throwing Stars.. together with one of their poisons which increases strength it is debated if he has now a S6 or S7 ranged attack.


I thought that they already FAQ'd this? If I remember correctly they said that the assassin would receive S7 with this combination.

The SkaerKrow
24-03-2009, 12:23
To avoid being broken don't use the following items:

1. Standard of Hag Graef
2. Pendant of Khaleth
3. Ring of HotekOut of those three items, the only one that is remotely "broken" is the Pendant of Khaleth, and only if you run it on a character with a 1+ Armor Save and/or Regeneration.

This is, again, part of the problem with gauging what is actually overpowered in the Dark Elf list. Enough empty cans rattle on some message boards, and suddenly people are throwing around the word "broken" without putting much thought into how truly applicable that label is.

fubukii
24-03-2009, 13:18
id say a 25pt item which basically stops all magic being cast at or within 12 inches of the bearer is pretty broken, to deny this you would have to seriously be biased ( i even play de and i think its too good of a item)

as for the ASF banner it should be more points 35 seems to cheap although i wouldnt say its broken.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 13:28
There is no such thing as the "unkillable Dragon Lord". If he's on the Dragon, he's vulnerable. The Lord is so much better off on a Dark Steed with the Inverse Ward than he is on the dragon.

As far as the Ring of Hotek - I love that item. It's magic defense that doesn't require a mage taking a character slot. It also restricts you from going magic heavy yourself, or you start playing a very risky game with it in a Magic heavy list.

Feefait
24-03-2009, 14:41
I;m going to argue against the Black Guard ASF being cheesy. I don't play them, but play against them. I've beaten them once and tied them up significantly in another, they would probably have gone down except we had to call the game. Now oyu won't get any argument form me about the banner probably needing to cost 50 to 60 instead of 35, but honestly BG seem the best option to use them on. I can't fault a DE player from building that unit... it just makes sense. Why purposely "handicap" yourself by putting it elsewhere, or not taking it?

And the ring is okay, it affects everyone. My goal is just to shoot the heck out of the BG and magic elsewhere. Plus, get close enough to them and you hurt the DE casting as well.

I haven't played against dual hydras, but so far 1 doesn't scare me. But I've only played LM against DE, and can outmonster a lowly hydra. Not to mention skinks tear it up. I don't care about the saves, a couple units of blowguns hitting means it will fail some saves. and once you reduce it's strength it's not that scary.

I am a big, big fan of the list, not to mention the models.. if we didn't have a long established De player already I'd be taking it over! Screw my fledgling wood elves... lol

fubukii
24-03-2009, 15:09
I prefer ASF cold one knights with the hydra banner personally over bg :) but hey black guard are great as well!

The SkaerKrow
24-03-2009, 15:09
id say a 25pt item which basically stops all magic being cast at or within 12 inches of the bearer is pretty brokenI'm sure it would be, except that's not at all what the Ring of Hotek does. If your opponent chooses not to cast spells into the Ring's AoE that's their choice, but nothing is preventing them from doing so. Against spells cast on one dice, and Tomb King magic, and bound spells, it has absolutely no effect. Against spells without a target (and there are several), it has a very limited effect. Against spells cast on two dice it still isn't an incredible risk. Really, the only people that particularly suffer against the Ring of Hotek are people playing magic heavy lists, which have a habit of steam-rolling armies who are unprepared for them anyhow. The Ring of Hotek creates a bad match-up for those people, that doesn't make the item broken.


to deny this you would have to seriously be biased ( i even play de and i think its too good of a item)That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. However, don't try to pass it off as fact without at least providing some actual substance to back it up.

fubukii
24-03-2009, 15:26
so for 25 pts you basically stop all but vc invocations, and weak spells from being cast within a 12 inch radius of a particular area of the board for 25pts? I mean really? you dont see that as overly good? seeing how most players cast 3d6 for spells that effecitvely shuts that down, protecting anything within 12 inches of the ring (normally on a bsb, bg champ, cok champ) and everything around him. so ok, i guess you can still get by fireball, and other low level spells, but you effectively shut down any powerful spell, and stop any chance of IF

- all for 25 pts :) aka 1 dispel scroll

AUN'SHI
24-03-2009, 15:27
Hi all, been a while since ive touched fantacy gonne be running good old DE :) one quick question comes to mind though what is the shade death stars strategy that ive read. I can't really see the shades as broken but then again I may be wrong. And since im here does anyone know how lokhir dareing leap can be effective or is it just to position him so he can touch say a mage and do all his attack on him/her.

Thanks

fubukii
24-03-2009, 15:31
40 man shade unit, mr2-4, ring of hotek, several characters including assassins, possibly a bsb with asf or unbreakble. 80 shots when u charge them and every time they shoot. you get in cc with them and fight 2-3 asassins and several other chars mangling anything that charged. dreadlord with pendant locks down any big attackers.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 15:35
so for 25 pts you basically stop all but vc invocations, and weak spells from being cast within a 12 inch radius of a particular area of the board for 25pts? I mean really? you dont see that as overly good? seeing how most players cast 3d6 for spells that effecitvely shuts that down, protecting anything within 12 inches of the ring (normally on a bsb, bg champ, cok champ) and everything around him. so ok, i guess you can still get by fireball, and other low level spells, but you effectively shut down any powerful spell, and stop any chance of IF

- all for 25 pts aka 1 dispel scroll

Yeah it's fantastic. But honestly the game needs something like that to screw over magic heavy armies, who are generally dealing direct damage.

As it is, those kinds of armies have very little in the way of natural counters or even bad matchups - devolving more into a dice game.

And it doesn't stop all VC magic bar invoke. Most abusive VC lists can cast dance on 2 dice reliably. For all the spells that really matter for VC: Invoke, Dance, and Raise Zombies - 2 Dice is sufficient. If anything, the ring helps keep them somewhat honest.

AUN'SHI
24-03-2009, 16:02
40 man shade unit, mr2-4, ring of hotek, several characters including assassins, possibly a bsb with asf or unbreakble. 80 shots when u charge them and every time they shoot. you get in cc with them and fight 2-3 asassins and several other chars mangling anything that charged. dreadlord with pendant locks down any big attackers.


That does sound pretty crazy but that's 1 heck of a lot of points no? 40 is 640 pts no characters 90 pts for assasins add 3 in there your looking at 910 pts pts. And upgrade it even more lord, hero, bsb, magic items ect your looking waaay over 1000 pts. and what about the rest of the army? Don't get me wrong it sounds good on paper but thats is a lot of points.

Now for the dareing leap anyone know how to use this or what its good for? thanks :)

Feefait
24-03-2009, 16:32
Sorry to be harsh Aun'shi but this is one of the most controversial and hated things going in fantasy right now, the detahstar units. And if you can't figure out how to make or use them then you probably shouldn't be. It was clever the first time someone tried it, but just ripping it off a forum is hardly sporting, imo.

szlachcic
24-03-2009, 16:52
I haven't played against dual hydras, but so far 1 doesn't scare me. But I've only played LM against DE, and can outmonster a lowly hydra. Not to mention skinks tear it up. I don't care about the saves, a couple units of blowguns hitting means it will fail some saves. and once you reduce it's strength it's not that scary.


Actually, my main opponent is a LM player who uses a large number of monsters and skinks and out of all of our players he has the hardest time with the hydras. Dual Hydras can stand up to any monster in the LM list pretty easily. Also remember that hydras can move through terrain like skirmishers so it can be harder to get good shots on them with your skinks, especially when they are being sprayed down with two breath weapons.

You may have no problem against it, I just was saying in my experience your "counter" does not work very well.

AUN'SHI
24-03-2009, 20:18
Sorry to be harsh Aun'shi but this is one of the most controversial and hated things going in fantasy right now, the detahstar units. And if you can't figure out how to make or use them then you probably shouldn't be. It was clever the first time someone tried it, but just ripping it off a forum is hardly sporting, imo.


Funny no need to be harsh as I didn't say I was going to use it. I just got back into fantacy and was wondering what it was. I didn't indicate that I was or will be useing this tactic. So I'm not sure why you decided to reply....:rolleyes:

One thing I do stand by is the fact that this is really expensive.. If you fight another DE army that unit would be great to fight againt (chill wind comes to mind.) The ring of hotek can only do so much if your rolling super amount of dice. But cheaper spells may be the key against this unit. Also this tactic is not so good agint every army dwarves comes to mind, with a side order of come back to life undead.

Its a great tactic don't get me wrong but there are ways around it. Id like to play someone that uses this and see what comes out of it. woudl be fun. imo

fubukii
24-03-2009, 20:56
Funny no need to be harsh as I didn't say I was going to use it. I just got back into fantacy and was wondering what it was. I didn't indicate that I was or will be useing this tactic. So I'm not sure why you decided to reply....:rolleyes:

One thing I do stand by is the fact that this is really expensive.. If you fight another DE army that unit would be great to fight againt (chill wind comes to mind.) The ring of hotek can only do so much if your rolling super amount of dice. But cheaper spells may be the key against this unit. Also this tactic is not so good agint every army dwarves comes to mind, with a side order of come back to life undead.

Its a great tactic don't get me wrong but there are ways around it. Id like to play someone that uses this and see what comes out of it. woudl be fun. imo

actually cheaper spells are unable to effect the unit because of its magic resistance of 2, 3 or better.

AUN'SHI
24-03-2009, 21:12
actually cheaper spells are unable to effect the unit because of its magic resistance of 2, 3 or better.


Good call. Maybe area of effect spells then Id have to actually play againt it to see how "broken" it is. If I can say it's even broken...

I wonder how many people actually use this tactic. I guess with the super powers aka undead/demons people start looking for a power house within their own army.

Daxio
24-03-2009, 22:09
i think that it all boils down to one question, why are you playing? if to win at all costs without actually having to use much tactical skill then you will ultimately gravitate towards ridiculously powerful uber units. my group play to enjoy the game, and winning is viewed as a bonus to a fun evening.
i play dark elves, only take one hydra, never use any of the mentioned magic items, its my choice, thats the great thing about the game. equally i would not grumble if my opponent took them, i might take the mick a bit, but thats it.
dark elves aint broken, just different, which is, after all, what we all look for in an army... something that is different.

AUN'SHI
24-03-2009, 22:33
i think that it all boils down to one question, why are you playing? if to win at all costs without actually having to use much tactical skill then you will ultimately gravitate towards ridiculously powerful uber units. my group play to enjoy the game, and winning is viewed as a bonus to a fun evening.
i play dark elves, only take one hydra, never use any of the mentioned magic items, its my choice, thats the great thing about the game. equally i would not grumble if my opponent took them, i might take the mick a bit, but thats it.
dark elves aint broken, just different, which is, after all, what we all look for in an army... something that is different.

no arguments here. I to play and have fun... Fighting a so called uber list is great imo as it allows me to think of crazy strategies. I usually have a few armies in the works so if I know Im playin power gamers (you know who you are :D ) Ill use a uber list of my own. If I play against a begginer or someone that wants to play for fun I have my fluffy list.

key is varity more than 1 list = more than 1 style of play.

Saying that I would love to try out fightening againts someone that ran the shade deathstar unit i think i have a few tricks up my sleeve for it :evilgrin:

sulla
24-03-2009, 23:26
so for 25 pts you basically stop all but vc invocations, and weak spells from being cast within a 12 inch radius of a particular area of the board for 25pts? I mean really? you dont see that as overly good? seeing how most players cast 3d6 for spells that effecitvely shuts that down, protecting anything within 12 inches of the ring (normally on a bsb, bg champ, cok champ) and everything around him. so ok, i guess you can still get by fireball, and other low level spells, but you effectively shut down any powerful spell, and stop any chance of IF

- all for 25 pts :) aka 1 dispel scroll

You forgot that it also limits DE magic too and investing in more than a single scroll caddy to support it can be very dangerous if you plan on going forward with the ringbearing unit. So, ring, 2 scrolls and 3 dispel dice... that's it. Hope you can fit your whole army in that 12" bubble (except the sorceress) and still dictate the battle to your opponent...

How about you complain about the overcosted stuff in the book too for balance, like RBT's that are a joke compared to great cannons? Or executioners who are seriously lacking compared to chariots, shades, BG or knights? Or corsairs who have no real role in the army now? Even masters are overpriced compared to chaos, vampire or dwarven heroes.

But so what, right? We have the ring of hotek, pendant and and hydras...

fubukii
24-03-2009, 23:57
You forgot that it also limits DE magic too and investing in more than a single scroll caddy to support it can be very dangerous if you plan on going forward with the ringbearing unit. So, ring, 2 scrolls and 3 dispel dice... that's it. Hope you can fit your whole army in that 12" bubble (except the sorceress) and still dictate the battle to your opponent...

How about you complain about the overcosted stuff in the book too for balance, like RBT's that are a joke compared to great cannons? Or executioners who are seriously lacking compared to chariots, shades, BG or knights? Or corsairs who have no real role in the army now? Even masters are overpriced compared to chaos, vampire or dwarven heroes.

But so what, right? We have the ring of hotek, pendant and and hydras...

Ok well, since the rbt in general is overcosted (hes too) i cant argue until they make both cheaper. THe ring does not stop you from casting it is actually very simple to put a mage in xx unit have the mage outside of 12 inches but keep her unit in that range. also theres a lovely magic item called focus familar that lets you cast spells from within 6 inches of the user. a great combo to cast spells out of ring range :). But yes i suppose you can deny that you cant run magic with the ring of hotek but i would disagree its very possible and ive seen it done quite often ( and have personally done it)

Id say the only units in the book that are overpriced are the rbt... the problem is they made certain other units SO good that people dont want to take the average power units (ex: exes/we compared to black guard), or (6/7py de warrior to a 10+ pt corsair?), kinda how like DOC armies only run horrors or plaguebearers because they made them so much better then the other core units.

to be honest the units themselves are decent, just that they spoiled de players with ridiculous units making the other units seem bad. Noow dont get me wrong i love dark elves but im saying there are certain things in the book that are a extremely powerful, the same way doc and vc have powerful things.

lakissov
25-03-2009, 08:47
once again. the only thing that the ring does is stopping the casting of uber spells in a 12" radius, somewhere in the center. anyone saying that it is possible to run the ring AND magic should also thing that it is possible to run a magic heavy army against the ring. after all, if the DE player is able to keep his mages and targets away from the 12" radius, so is his opponent. the ring does nothing to prevent the enemy from killing all of your support troops with magic (and in my opinion, this is the best way to use magic against DE anyway).

I simply can't agree that this is a broken item. Broken because it makes the game less of a no-braner for the all-out-magic armies? well, screw those armies - they are not fun to play against anyway.

fubukii
25-03-2009, 09:36
the only reason its broken is because its only 25 pts i agree the item is great, and a good idea to keep warhammer players on thier toes! Also any 3d6+ spell (which is most 7-8+ spells) are great effected by the ring not just uber spells. you have seemed to mis the point that you can have a mages unit in the rings radius, and have her out of the rings AOE thus being able to cast magic freely?

your right though for only 25 pts it cant effect The entire table thank god ( meaning your throw away/support units may get hit by magic, assuming A the ring doesnt get to his casters, or you didnt take a scroll caddy or the unit doesnt conveinantly have 1 model in range of the ring ), but because it doesnt that somehow balances the item? . Thats like saying a plaguebearer block with a herald is balanced because it can only be in 1 particular combat at a time, and you can avoid them, right? :)

the item is undercosted for its effects. Other armies have to actually go out of thier way and waste multiple hero slots to even muster a moderate defense vs magic and still be unable to cast spells

lakissov
25-03-2009, 10:56
don't exaggerate, fubukii. i do realize that the ring is a great item; i merely think that it's not broken. the two reasons why it came to be regarded as broken are:
- it can be taken on a champion
- people that got used to thrashing others with heavy magic get offended to see that this approach doesn't work in some circumstances

as to your argument of "don't you think that the fact that it doesn't affect the entire battlefield balances it", then yes, I do think so. that's what I was actually saying. this IS a balancing factor. this IS one of the reasons to stop calling the item broken.

the whole point: ring alone is not sufficient for magic defense. not by far. it certainly enhances magic defense, but many items do. yes, it is undercosted. but undercosted is far from broken. there are many items in warhammer that are undercosted, but only several are broken (in the DE list there's one such item - pendant; and even that one is only broken on a character with armor of 3+ or better).

fubukii
25-03-2009, 11:39
i believe people regard it as broken when 1 25 pt item can shut down a 700+ points of offensive magic phase from effecting the most powerful units in your army. thats the point im trying to make, the only other items that have that kind of potential are the cube of darkness, and the vortex shard, both more expensive and one of which can only be taken on a lord, both arcane as well. In addition they are one use only

nosferatu1001
25-03-2009, 12:10
ring is an insane item for the points - especially when combined with Shade deathstars.

Did people miss the point that each item is not broken by itself it is the combinations that make it broken? an uber strong skirmish high M value unit pumping out 80 shots a turn, that you cant cast high value spells at due to ring; even if you do MR2-3 will stop it AND the 1 dice spells you can usually cast ok?

You think that essentially limiting casting armies to casting defensive spells while you can happily cast OUT due to the 6" focus familiar isnt a little...annoying? Combine with two terror causers on each side breathing on you, with 1 handler conveniently within 12" to get the same protection and its a nasty 40k style army.

W0lf
25-03-2009, 12:14
i believe people regard it as broken when 1 25 pt item can shut down a 700+ points of offensive magic phase from effecting the most powerful units in your army. thats the point im trying to make, the only other items that have that kind of potential are the cube of darkness, and the vortex shard, both more expensive and one of which can only be taken on a lord, both arcane as well. In addition they are one use only

yes but ofc... a 25pt item on a unit champ or noble should obviously have this power...

Seriously when 25 pts blunts 700pts of mages (which it does) then the game is a little bit lame. Hell your 675 pts up and its not like a DE 2K army appropriatly costed is more like 2250.

Chainaxe07
25-03-2009, 14:04
I never ever met (i mean in the flesh) any player that really has a quarry with the pendant/regen dark elf lord.
This seems to be an intenet fixation.
It is a costly, frail character that, by taking that combination of items, gives up any chanche of doing serious damage.
He will be quite difficult to kill ( a good thing, i dont see why you should be able to kill charcters too easily), but most armies can field lords that can walk over him in a single round, if you really want.
I regularly play an opponent that has a pendant lord with the armour that confers +1t and +1 w, mounted on a cold one.
He opted for this instead of regen as all armies have some kind of flaming attack, so he lost regeneration quite soon (second turn at best).
I suppose someone would consider it "cheesy" too...well if i want i can have my chaos lord (and soon enough lizardmen lord) rip his hearth out in a couple rounds (yup,i did this), but i generally find it much better to leave him alone (unless i dont have better targets) and kill his units (maye even the one he is in!) instead.
He is not undead: you dont have to kill his general to win. Stop this nonsense!!
The ring, i agree, is far underpriced. I gues 10/15 points more would shup up a lot of noisy dissenters. Make it 20 more and you get them all happy.
The standar i have rarely, if ever, seen fielded, therefore i dont really know.

Cheers!

CaliforniaGamer
25-03-2009, 17:31
Even without Hotek, the DEs are still crazy strong. top notch army, all round. My favorite army list by far. I hope beasts of chaos follow in the same line.

Anthonius
26-03-2009, 01:07
yes but ofc... a 25pt item on a unit champ or noble should obviously have this power...

Seriously when 25 pts blunts 700pts of mages (which it does) then the game is a little bit lame. Hell your 675 pts up and its not like a DE 2K army appropriatly costed is more like 2250.

This also works the other way round though. Using your example, facing 700 points of mages while not being prepared for it skews the game in a similar manner. Magic, taken in large quantities, is easily capable of destroying/disrupting more than the points you paid for it.

And while the item is good, its not THAT powerful. The chance of the item having much effect isn't that high (from what I've observed).

fubukii
26-03-2009, 02:53
This also works the other way round though. Using your example, facing 700 points of mages while not being prepared for it skews the game in a similar manner. Magic, taken in large quantities, is easily capable of destroying/disrupting more than the points you paid for it.

And while the item is good, its not THAT powerful. The chance of the item having much effect isn't that high (from what I've observed).

well heres t he difference when someone spends 1/3rd of his points allowance on something it should be effective, but when someone spends 1/100th of his points allowance on something that counters 1/3rd of that given army....... see the problem :P

Scythe
26-03-2009, 09:55
well heres t he difference when someone spends 1/3rd of his points allowance on something it should be effective, but when someone spends 1/100th of his points allowance on something that counters 1/3rd of that given army....... see the problem :P

Not really to be honest. It is not like this is the only example you can give in warhammer for this. The 6/9 pts High Elf Dragon armour shuts down a 500+ pts Bloodthirster with the firestorm blade... A 30 pts Horstman's speculum can shut down any character of hundreds of points.
Let's face it, you put all your eggs in the magic basket, so you shouldn't be surprised when it hits you in the face from time to time. When you decide to play a rock-paper-scissors army, you should be prepared to get mauled from some armies.

Wolf 11x
26-03-2009, 17:44
When you decide to play a rock-paper-scissors army, you should be prepared to get mauled from some armies.

He isn't arguing that the player getting screwed is using a pure magic army. My Lizardmen have plenty of shooting and combat with a Slann and an Engine of the Gods. However, the idea of having roughly 535 points worth of magic shutdown by one 30 point item is beyond lame.

fubukii
26-03-2009, 18:30
Not really to be honest. It is not like this is the only example you can give in warhammer for this. The 6/9 pts High Elf Dragon armour shuts down a 500+ pts Bloodthirster with the firestorm blade... A 30 pts Horstman's speculum can shut down any character of hundreds of points.
Let's face it, you put all your eggs in the magic basket, so you shouldn't be surprised when it hits you in the face from time to time. When you decide to play a rock-paper-scissors army, you should be prepared to get mauled from some armies.

I will disagree with some of your statements.
- for starters, A thrister with FSB vs high elves still have plenty of targets (SM, SPears, WL, PG, Chariots, LSG, RBT, Achers, still causes terror, and in this particular example a 9 pt piece of armor is shooting down a 25 pt upgrade)
- THe speculum once again does not shut down a character, he enables your character in a challenge to beat him. You can still Openly and freely attack ANy thing else in the enemy army. You also accept challenges with a unit champion.....

I will admit sometimes if u play a R/p/s style army u will have bad matchups, but Wolf has it right and thats what im trying to explain.

The SkaerKrow
26-03-2009, 19:50
Your magic hasn't been shut down by any stretch of the imagination. That's the part that people just don't seem to grasp. Cast your more difficult spells outside of the Ring's AoE if you must. Eliminate the bearer of the ring through shooting, close combat or those spells that you deem to be safe to cast. Part of what makes the game interesting is that you have to adapt your tactics to overcome a variety of opponents. If you enter every single game believing that you can win with the same bag of tricks, you're in for a short and unhappy Warhammer career.

Wolf 11x
27-03-2009, 02:52
If you enter every single game believing that you can win with the same bag of tricks, you're in for a short and unhappy Warhammer career.

You're being overly sarcastic and over-generalizing, in my opinion...

fubukii
27-03-2009, 03:07
Your magic hasn't been shut down by any stretch of the imagination. That's the part that people just don't seem to grasp. Cast your more difficult spells outside of the Ring's AoE if you must. Eliminate the bearer of the ring through shooting, close combat or those spells that you deem to be safe to cast. Part of what makes the game interesting is that you have to adapt your tactics to overcome a variety of opponents. If you enter every single game believing that you can win with the same bag of tricks, you're in for a short and unhappy Warhammer career.

yea nothing like having to waste infernal gateway or any other uber powerful spell on a unit of harpies or dark riders lol, or other worthless units. All the important units you want to magic (bg, cok, hydras, chars, assassins) are near the the ring!

Emeraldw
27-03-2009, 03:10
I never ever met (i mean in the flesh) any player that really has a quarry with the pendant/regen dark elf lord.
This seems to be an intenet fixation.
It is a costly, frail character that, by taking that combination of items, gives up any chanche of doing serious damage.


For 25 points you can get Str 6 or str 5 AP with WS7 and Hatred. Thats plenty of damage, especially when said DE can't die. Bloodthirster? I'll take the bet on the DE.



He will be quite difficult to kill ( a good thing, i dont see why you should be able to kill charcters too easily), but most armies can field lords that can walk over him in a single round, if you really want.
I regularly play an opponent that has a pendant lord with the armour that confers +1t and +1 w, mounted on a cold one.
He opted for this instead of regen as all armies have some kind of flaming attack, so he lost regeneration quite soon (second turn at best).
I suppose someone would consider it "cheesy" too...well if i want i can have my chaos lord (and soon enough lizardmen lord) rip his hearth out in a couple rounds (yup,i did this), but i generally find it much better to leave him alone (unless i dont have better targets) and kill his units (maye even the one he is in!) instead.
He is not undead: you dont have to kill his general to win. Stop this nonsense!!
The ring, i agree, is far underpriced. I gues 10/15 points more would shup up a lot of noisy dissenters. Make it 20 more and you get them all happy.
The standar i have rarely, if ever, seen fielded, therefore i dont really know.

Cheers!

All you need is the pendant and he will wip you. I wish I was kidding, it's a 2+ save against str 5 or higher and you can easily give a lord a 1+ save. With the gear I'd field him against daemons, dragons you name it. I hate that pendant and I do have a huge problem with it.

I'd say it's undercosted by Dark Elves are just flat undercosted, which makes them really powerful.

Darkspear
27-03-2009, 04:25
For 25 points you can get Str 6 or str 5 AP with WS7 and Hatred. Thats plenty of damage, especially when said DE can't die. Bloodthirster? I'll take the bet on the DE.



All you need is the pendant and he will wip you. I wish I was kidding, it's a 2+ save against str 5 or higher and you can easily give a lord a 1+ save. With the gear I'd field him against daemons, dragons you name it. I hate that pendant and I do have a huge problem with it.


Anyway a thirster with obsidian armor can thrash the Druchii lord. Assuming the druchii lord is mounted on a horse or cold one. The thirster can't wound the dreadlord neither can the dreadlord does the same back. Dreadlord autobreaks and dies

If dreadlord has a monster mount. Bloodthirster murders the mount with ********s of attacks. Puny dreadlord autobreaks and dies.

If dreadlord joins unit of infantry/cavalry. Bloodthrister murders the unit and gain tons of combat res. Dreadlord breaks and dies....

This is how you kill a dreadlord....with tactics

BUT......

If you are a high elf player...you generally lack the tools to do the same. Either use a stardragon if he is using a monster....or just load up with s4 magic shots and rbt shots.

Emeraldw
27-03-2009, 05:38
Anyway a thirster with obsidian armor can thrash the Druchii lord. Assuming the druchii lord is mounted on a horse or cold one. The thirster can't wound the dreadlord neither can the dreadlord does the same back. Dreadlord autobreaks and dies

If dreadlord has a monster mount. Bloodthirster murders the mount with ********s of attacks. Puny dreadlord autobreaks and dies.

If dreadlord joins unit of infantry/cavalry. Bloodthrister murders the unit and gain tons of combat res. Dreadlord breaks and dies....

This is how you kill a dreadlord....with tactics

BUT......

If you are a high elf player...you generally lack the tools to do the same. Either use a stardragon if he is using a monster....or just load up with s4 magic shots and rbt shots.

Charge thirst with a unit of cold one knights with said lord, (or let him charge, doesn't change anything) challenge. DE wins with outnumber and banner every turn and thirster has to take tests.

Tactics are great but only when taken into entire contexts of the game. Point for point, Dark Elves have the best defensive item in the game which lets them do things they shouldn't.

I think that Pendant is ******** and I wonder if it was playtested.

That said, I recognize that Warhammer is a game about fun, but I will warn my friend about some of the abuses as playing double hydra and mr. "you can't kill me, ever" is not fun and removes tactics.

fubukii
27-03-2009, 05:43
why doesnt given dark elf lord rock a potion of str? or a great weapon? seeing how you can give him regen, and the pendant, and a potion of strength.

Scythe
27-03-2009, 08:39
yea nothing like having to waste infernal gateway or any other uber powerful spell on a unit of harpies or dark riders lol, or other worthless units. All the important units you want to magic (bg, cok, hydras, chars, assassins) are near the the ring!

Yeah, because the dark elf army is filled with throwaway unit :rolleyes:

Ow, and because taking down that 100+ points of Dark Riders before they smash your war machines and mages is such a waste of time...

By far most offensive spells in the game are magic missiles, which are almost always better targeted at support units, which tend to operate more than 12" from the center of the battle line.

Mages are not made worthless by the ring, as you try so hard to make people believe. The ring creates a limited size sphere, in which only half an army can be present most of the time, in which spells cast on more than 2 dice have a big chance of failing (for both armies, I have to add). Outside this sphere, a mage is free to cast what he wants without risks.

lakissov
27-03-2009, 08:45
SkaerKrow is absolutely right, and he is not beign sarcastic or something like that. It's just that the rest of the board isn't even trying to understand what he is saying. The ring doesn't shut down the magic phase - it merely protects a portion of an army, which is in general very vulnerable to magic, from high-value spells. For a smart opponent, it's not a problem - he will simply destroy the support units with magic, and then the unsupported core of the dark elf army will be raped (because dark elf units don't work without support, with the exception of deathstars).

It's those less than smart opponents, for whom the only way to play magic-heavy is to pound the most important unit with gateway, that suppose the ring broken.

But well, it seems an exercixe in futility to explain anything to people at warseer. I guess I'll just shut myself up and go back to druchii.net, where people actually do listen to what you say.

Chainaxe07
27-03-2009, 10:40
For 25 points you can get Str 6 or str 5 AP with WS7 and Hatred. Thats plenty of damage, especially when said DE can't die. Bloodthirster? I'll take the bet on the DE..

Are u serious?
Geez man, your bet is taken!
If you want we can play it out with a keeper of secrets as well, he'll knock the elf down pretty fast, ang get little or no wounds in return.
As well as almost every ogre character, most chaos lords, lizardmen lords, black orcs, dwarves etc etc (how is no one here has a quarry with godly, unkillable, unstoppable dwarf lords?).




All you need is the pendant and he will wip you. I wish I was kidding, it's a 2+ save against str 5 or higher and you can easily give a lord a 1+ save. With the gear I'd field him against daemons, dragons you name it. I hate that pendant and I do have a huge problem with it.

I'd say it's undercosted by Dark Elves are just flat undercosted, which makes them really powerful.

I suppose we are just biased as we still have memories of how weak DE were in the last edition.
Well, about the famous pendant lord here is a short list of ways i killed it (with chaos, i dont play other armies...but soon enough i bet i could add dozens of lizardmen ways to get rid of the bugger):
Distendable Maw (when on foot), word of agony (no armour save, d6s4 hits),hellfire sword (that also takes care of regeneration),rapier of extasy, axe of khorne (but this actually applies to all killing blows, every army has bucketloads of them and all you need is just one to get through the pendant. Rank and file kbs are usually even better, as they still wound the t3 weakling, ignore armour and make the pendant less effective),blasphemous amulet, Death's head, festering shroud banner and, of course, pure and simple bashing!
Sooner or later he will roll some sixes, and then he is a goner.
Great weapon, hatred and all is is just an average character, not much he can do to hurt a combat character.
Also the guy we regularly play against gave regen up as each and every army has plenty of flaming missiles, and he lost regen in a couple turs at most.
Now he uses the armour that bumps the w and t on the character.
A much safer bet for him.
There are also lots of spells that cause wounds (or kill outright) when you fail a characteristic test (remember he has very,very low s and t).
So, if you really want, you cn easily get rid of him, but still, since he is bound to have a much lesser effect on the game (i.e. killing average unit members) than your humble chaos lord with extra hand weapon why bother at all?
let him just be a costly, near useless piece on the field. Aint it much better?
To be honest i sometimes find him annoying, and do decide to kill him (again, my friend, not so hard really), but it has much more to do with him having a good leadership and using the general rule to make routing his units harder than the number of chaos warriors he is going to kill during the game, that, i assure you, aint that impressive at all.

phoenixlaw
27-03-2009, 11:09
Also the guy we regularly play against gave regen up as each and every army has plenty of flaming missiles, and he lost regen in a couple turs at most.
Now he uses the armour that bumps the w and t on the character.
A much safer bet for him.


Um..... you dont lose regen any more. just dont get it vs that particular attack......

Chainaxe07
27-03-2009, 14:54
Really?
You no longer lose regen when hit by fire. Cool, good news!
I can consider this for my chaos lord then.
Most of my buddies, like me, play since 2nd edition, so we sometimes get confused!
Is it in the core rulebook?

phoenixlaw
27-03-2009, 15:01
Yup - There's nothing in the rules to say you lose it any more.

I do know what you mean though, I've been playing for several editions and things still come up which have changed and noone noticed.

Emeraldw
27-03-2009, 15:16
Chain, how often do you see initive tests or die? I can think of a couple that involve tests, but elves have a high I so I wouldn't rely on that to work the turn you want, another involves T and is a spell, but the Elf still has a chance to save 50% of the time and being a spell, the ring of hotek or a dispel scroll can save you.

I know that the 1+ and Regen aren't really the problem, the pendant is. It always has been with that combo (then again, being cheap enough to get all 3 is probably the largest problem) and you can't tell me "he'll eventually roll 6's!" sure, but what about that regen afterwards? For every 6 wounds, he'll take one and still have a 50% chance to save, and thats not even including the armor save!

Chainaxe07
27-03-2009, 15:31
Chain, how often do you see initive tests or die? I can think of a couple that involve tests, but elves have a high I so I wouldn't rely on that to work the turn you want, another involves T and is a spell, but the Elf still has a chance to save 50% of the time and being a spell, the ring of hotek or a dispel scroll can save you.

I know that the 1+ and Regen aren't really the problem, the pendant is. It always has been with that combo (then again, being cheap enough to get all 3 is probably the largest problem) and you can't tell me "he'll eventually roll 6's!" sure, but what about that regen afterwards? For every 6 wounds, he'll take one and still have a 50% chance to save, and thats not even including the armor save!

I dont think a dreadlord (quite a name for a puny elf, huh?) can have the pendant, regen and the ring. Both the ring and the pendant are talismans, i believe.
I find dwarf lords, greater demons (GoU is insane, but the others too stand here), ogre characters, regenerating slanns and surely many other characters besides much harder to kill and, most of all, being harder to kill while having a much greater effect on the battlefield as a whole.
The hatred for the pendant lord is probably (ok, i may be mistaken) the consequence of some unlucky, stubborn (and probably unsuccesful) attept at his life.
He aint gonna hurt your battleline, if you are so really scared of his resistence (and again i think you are very, very much overrating it) just leave him alone.
You dont NEED to kill him, after all. Dont be obsessed with it.
If it can be of any confort to u i can make a list of all the times i have seen him go down and describe how. A sadistic but somewhat satisfying task!
A personal point: the only thing i really hate about DE (but DONT think it is overpowered) is assassins.
Again, my visions can be biased as i play WoC, an army whose rank and file troops do much more killing than any of its supercharacters.
I suppose other armies can have different issues.
The only army, however, that every player i know hates facing is demons (now lizardmen too, a shame since i am collecting them), very few (if any) have any quarry with DE, pendant or not.
Why is it?

fubukii
27-03-2009, 16:50
I play dark elves, i know How extremely powerful the ring of hotek is. I have played in tournaments where is has obviously won games for me. the problem you ignore is like i said every important unit, is in this bubble for the most part

Normally the ring is in one of the following places
on a 20 man BG unit with a bsb and a dreadlord in the unit maybe a assassin
on a COK knight unit, possibly with hydra banner bsb
ON the bsb, the item is so dirt cheap you can still rock a 1+ save......

Now these are all things that will have a ton of units around them, and with the black guard and the cok, losing a couple of units of throw away dark riders or harpies isnt a big deal. any netted vp is good, but a simple fireball spell is good enough to kil ldark riders why do i need to cast the power spells to kill them, using 4-5 pd where you will laugh and go oh well i lost some dark riders?

but we pretend that the ring of hotek is prefectly fine for its points and totally balanced because dark elf players feel that since thier book was iffy for so long they deserve the best items in the game for the cheapest points costs available.

Emeraldw
27-03-2009, 21:51
but we pretend that the ring of hotek is prefectly fine for its points and totally balanced because dark elf players feel that since thier book was iffy for so long they deserve the best items in the game for the cheapest points costs available.

They got both I feel.