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View Full Version : Ride Of The Valkyries, vs Fish Of Fury Vs Serpent Squads



Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 15:11
So this is the basic premise for those you not skimming or reading the Ig Rumor thread. (is there anyone -not- reading that thread? :) )

Basically you take a squad of 10 Veterans. Give them Three plasmas, and a vox (if we can still give them vox and if they are eligible for Orders) have them hop in a valkyrie (going second is probably a good idea here which makes it a slightly different tactic than FOF), fly up to Rapid Fire range.

Have the Vets unload, and well unload their Plasma rounds, and 21 Lasgun shots into the enemy squad with the Valk possibly firing as well.

Now there's two ways to approach Ride in my mind. One is naturally to give them Carapace, this makes them around 10 pts more expensive than FOF is with your Valk. But it would give them survivability and they do have better BS.


Or you can go Max Bang For The Buck, and leave then unarmored. (my preference) this logic assumes that, that poor squad is going to die a horrible death in either the enemy shooting phase or assault phase. When I FOF I don't count on my squad living after wards because they rarely do.

Pts wise though This makes them Cheaper I believe than FOF.

Personally I'm going to employ this tactic the day I buy my first Valkyrie. (or pair of them)

the idea hit me when I realized that Valks transport full squads, and that Vets were troops now. I think this works slightly better than the Tau Fish Of Fury, certainly at least against targets not in cover. For just a little less points.

Thoughts?

I've not done any Eldar Serpent & Friends comparisons yet as I don't have an Eldar codex handy would someone mind doing that little bit of work for me?

Thoughts on the comparison of Eldar and Ride Of The Valkyries?

Jonik
20-03-2009, 15:18
My plasma vets are going in chimeras, but I do plan on a 3xmelta vet squad in valk. I tend to need to take out tanks more than I need to take out marines.

Doppleskanger
20-03-2009, 15:27
Well asuming the points costs are even or thereabouts, the ability to take multiple special weapons does give the valkyries the edge IMO. I would certainly try the armour though, players I know have pretty good sucess getting their FW reloaded so I think the same should be true for the Vets. I guess it does depend where you disembark though :)

Solar_Eclipse
20-03-2009, 15:35
Well i think both have their advantages and disadvantages of course.

The Valkyrie and the Vendetta are much better weapons platforms than the Devilfish, of course. They can take better weapons.

The Valkyrie and vendetta are better armoured than the devilfish.

The Valkyrie and Vendetta are faster than the devilfish.

The Veteran squad has the advantage of 3 Plasma weapons and alot of Bs4 lasgun shots.

Now, the we can see that the Guard have the advantage in a vastly superior tank design.

But lets look at the Tau, S5 basic weapons and a 4+ armour save, coupled with the possible markerlight upgrades and the ability to hide behind a devilfish and shoot under it while getting a cover save back is considerable. Due to the Valkyrie base, Guard wont be able to do this.

The Devilfish has a pretty potent upgrade in the form of the Disruption Pods. Allowing it to ignore alot of almost fatal hits. Add to that things such as Seeker missiles, the "fast vehicle" shooting upgrade and the Devilfish gives alot of bonuses to itself and the Tau unit it contains.

The Valkyrie and Vendetta deploy their squads via Deep strike, meaning that there is a chance of scatter, the unit is in base contact and it in quite a precarious position as it exits the valk. It also reportedly has to take a Dangerous terrain test, meaning you can lose some troops simply by dropping them there!

Now, lets look at the choices in the context of the full army.

Tau have a whole host of infiltrating and fast units which can keep up with the fish of fury tactic. It means that any fish of fury unit will have some pretty serious support.

Valkyries and Vendettas will be largely unsupported since they need to strike early to avoid taking too much firepower and killing the unit inside (or at least damaging it). This means that the units within need to do alot more damage themselves compared to the Tau unit.

I think when tooled right (Unit of 10, Valkyrie with Rocket pods, Demolition charge, Heavy flamer and 3 Plasma guns) you can have an incredibly dangerous unit, but it will be basically unsupported for a turn or 2.

The Tau dont do as much damage from that single unit, but have a much better method for keeping them supported.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 15:40
True, but you could load down in mass Valks and Vendettas which would give you the speed.

Do we -have- to field the valk on that disgusting base? I thought the Valk was just a normal skimmer?

The pt costs I listed factored in Smart Missiles (the heavy 4 missiles) Burst cannon, Disruption pods, and Multitracker (the fire as if Fast upgrade), FOF comes out to be either 10 pts cheaper than Ride (if the guys are given Carapace) or 20 points more expensive I think. Unless you for some reason leave the Gundrones in your fish... In which case they are identically priced if the Vets aren't in Carapace.

I think Ride is better vs meqs, and possibly Mcs. (If you -really had to-) and Light vehicles, where as Fish might be better against GEQ.

Solar_Eclipse
20-03-2009, 15:47
True, but you could load down in mass Valks and Vendettas which would give you the speed.


Ive been trying to make lists, ive got it down to 1000 points is impossible for full air cav. I ended up with 2 Valks and 2 Vendettas and 35 Infantry...



Do we -have- to field the valk on that disgusting base? I thought the Valk was just a normal skimmer?


Dont have too, of course, but i think its a good base and shows it off more for what it is, rather than what other skimmers are. It does have a difference (ie. Deep striking infantry)



I think Ride is better vs meqs, and possibly Mcs. (If you -really had to-) and Light vehicles, where as Fish might be better against GEQ.

I think Ride can be better against pretty much anything you gear it up to be good against, while Fish of Fury is good against everyone equally.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 15:50
I'm just thinking "PLASMA" with my Ride *L* Plasma is just so versatile the only thing it really doesn't do -especially- good against is mass horde.. though the thought of having a squad with three flamers is entertaining.

2 Valks and 2 Vendettas is more than enough at 1,000 points. I use less vehicles than that with my Tau at that point level. I've got a Fish, and hammerhead at 1k points. Course I also have 4 stealth suits and kroot.

DeadInTheHead
20-03-2009, 15:57
I think it might be worth going for the more kitted out, survivability option, and using them as a late game objective steal force, seeing as they're troops now.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 16:04
This is true. And they like Fish would be well suited for that tactic.

Does anyone know about the Cameoline option or is that gone now?

(most of our objectives don't know about the 40k community as a whole are nestled in cover)

Poseidal
20-03-2009, 16:23
Also, how do they compare with Snakes on a Plane?

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 16:26
Snakes on a Plane?

Eldar? Wave Serpent?

What kind of load out are we talking here?

Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers?

I haven't done the math or pts comparisons yet.

MajorWesJanson
20-03-2009, 16:27
Also, how do they compare with Snakes on a Plane?

Once they come out with the plastic Thunderhawk, and we can put Iron Snakes on it, then we can see.

kikkoman
20-03-2009, 16:27
Shouldn't mech Eldar be included in this?

Eldar also have a lot lot lot more viable units to load up in transports for different tasks.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 16:28
I would have included Eldar so from this point we will.

RichBlake
20-03-2009, 16:30
But lets look at the Tau, S5 basic weapons and a 4+ armour save, coupled with the possible markerlight upgrades and the ability to hide behind a devilfish and shoot under it while getting a cover save back is considerable. Due to the Valkyrie base, Guard wont be able to do this.


Last time I checked Line of sight is taken from head height, is the devilfish flight base really high enough to go above the head of the Tau?

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 16:32
Depends on which one you field. also IIRC Skimmers don't block Los.

Poseidal
20-03-2009, 16:34
Snakes is the Eldar version of Fish.

Usually with Dire Avengers; I run them at 177 points for the squad. The 152 point build is a bit shootier though less good in CC.

EDIT: Skimmers block LOS if the model blocks LOS. A laser pointer is actually really helpful with it.

Da Black Gobbo
20-03-2009, 16:36
I think this poll is now a bit senseless, we still haven't played the ride of the Valks so cannot see it's performance if it's good or bad. When I play a valk ride army (and believe me i'll do) we'll see if its good or bad.

Till then i will not vote.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 16:37
ah, I tend to unload from all three access points with my fish, and it's usually assumed with us that the skimmer is on the tall flyer base unless otherwise noted. (the taller one where you can see more than half of a model behind the vehicle)

Da Black Gobbo, why wait? just run a couple test proxy games :p I plan on doing just that very thing later, with my FOF versus Ride.

Poseidal: 177 pts? is that counting the Serpent?

ColonelGreiss
20-03-2009, 19:25
I think the viability of this list will depend greatly on one thing. do the valks count as a squadron, or is it simply 3 for a FA slot. As squadrons the lists mobility and flexibility drops considerably, as well as its firepower (9 TL Las spread between three tanks is much better than 9 on one target).

edit: Also, If you can disembark normally as well as deep strike that would greatly improve the list as well. If you HAVE to DS out of valks it could hamper the lists ability to deliver squads on target. Also, if the valk's have any firepoints could be good to know, tho i doubt they'd get that.

Captain Micha
20-03-2009, 19:31
True. I'm hoping it's more like the sniper drone team. More than the Squadron.

I doubt it will be a squadron, it's very hard for transports to -really- do anything if they are -all- stuck together in a squadron.

ColonelGreiss
20-03-2009, 21:22
Yeah but it appears that every other 3 for 1 choice in the codex is a squadron. I agree that it would really suck if they were, but i dont think they are.....but they might be. Id like to wait until I know for sure to start ordering my 65$ (ca) flying tanks.

Lord Cook
20-03-2009, 21:28
You may disembark normally from a Valkyrie, but three in a single FA slot count as a squadron.

To be honest I'm tempted to go for FOF. Sure it isn't as destructive, but it seems to work more fluidly in the context of the Tau army. Tau have better mobility and can really work cooperatively, laying down marker lights to give the fire warriors Bs4 or 5.

By comparison, ROV works just as well on a single unit basis, but it seems more difficult to support with the rest of the army. I think a lot will depend on Orders, how much heavy flamers cost, etc.

ColonelGreiss
20-03-2009, 22:34
Ugh....Transport Squadrons...And that Makes vendetta way worse.

Does anyone know what if any squads can take dedicated valkyries?

Da Black Gobbo
20-03-2009, 23:47
Well squadrons are not that bad, vendettas can transport guards (is our flying and better razorback!) Maybe a squadron of 2 vendettas and 2 squadrons of 3 valks tooled to kill infantry) and veterans with some demo charges and plasma-melta love.

The Apathetic Despot
21-03-2009, 01:25
They aren't that bad in and of themselves, the problem is that they would have to maintain unit coherency. We now have one of the most mobile transports in the game, and we can use them to move troops anywhere... within 4" of it's wingman :cries:.

ColonelGreiss
21-03-2009, 02:14
Yeah....thats just frakking annoying. Why oh why would you evver make transports a squadron. just ugh.

There goes the grand or so i was gonna spend on new models gw. Now ill jsut buy the codex and play my typical infantry tank guard. Hope your happy.

The Apathetic Despot
21-03-2009, 02:18
Yeah....thats just frakking annoying. Why oh why would you evver make transports a squadron. just ugh.

There goes the grand or so i was gonna spend on new models gw. Now ill jsut buy the codex and play my typical infantry tank guard. Hope your happy.

I know EXACTLY how you feel. It's particularly frustrating since before this most recent set of rumors everything seemed to be going so well.

RichBlake
21-03-2009, 06:28
ah, I tend to unload from all three access points with my fish, and it's usually assumed with us that the skimmer is on the tall flyer base unless otherwise noted. (the taller one where you can see more than half of a model behind the vehicle)


Yes but it doesn't matter if your opponent can see your model's legs, if your model's head is covered by the tank it cannot shoot. The rulebook clearly states LoS is taken from [i]head height[i].

If, looking from head height, you can see another model under the tank then you can shoot under it. If you cannot see part of a model from head height then you cannot shoot at them.

I can't remember the last time I saw a devilfish on a flyer base, but I'd assume it's not high enough to let you place a Tau model underneath it standing up.

samiens
21-03-2009, 12:56
Um, skimmers have top be placed on a flying base while mobile and not landed. taht said, its not possible (without a very long pole I suppose) to shoot from under the fish uless all the Tau are modelled lying down (and that would be so gamey!)

Captain Micha
21-03-2009, 15:40
Actually they do give you more than enough crouching legs so that the guys behind the fish are visible at head height. Just place your crouching models at the rear access point and your good.

Ride can be as synergistic as Fish can be, providing you are an Air Cav army. But you pretty much -are- fielding Vendettas to go with your valks (preferably two valks not in a squadron and two Vendettas that are)

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
21-03-2009, 16:03
Can you even put the vets IN the Valkyries? I'd heard that Valkyries were a transport option for Storm Troopers only.

Captain Micha
21-03-2009, 16:08
Yep. Valks are not dedicated transports apparently.

They are just fast attack choices.

Even then you can still have things not dedicated to the transport hop in, they just can't start the game in the transport.

Da Black Gobbo
21-03-2009, 16:29
wich isn't a great issue beeing fast skimmers and also beeing able to drop our vets in any point of the movement.

YAY 1,5k POST!!!

The Apathetic Despot
21-03-2009, 19:01
Even then you can still have things not dedicated to the transport hop in, they just can't start the game in the transport.

I can't find anything that says that in the rulebook. All it says is that they can't start the game in another unit's dedicated transport. Where does that restriction come from?

Lord Cook
21-03-2009, 19:43
I can't find anything that says that in the rulebook. All it says is that they can't start the game in another unit's dedicated transport. Where does that restriction come from?

A dedicated transport can only start the game carrying the unit it was bought for, however after the game has started, it can transport any unit you like. I couldn't provide a page reference off memory I'm afraid, but trust me it's there.

the1stpip
21-03-2009, 20:23
I prefer my Raider lists. Very cheap, fast skimmers with a Dark Lance.

Then offloading splinter cannons, mass splinter rifles, or Wyches.

The Apathetic Despot
21-03-2009, 21:41
A dedicated transport can only start the game carrying the unit it was bought for, however after the game has started, it can transport any unit you like. I couldn't provide a page reference off memory I'm afraid, but trust me it's there.

You're right (it's on page 67, btw), but what I was commenting on was the fact that (I think) he said that a unit can't start the game in a non-dedicated transport, but has to hop in first turn. So for instance a squad of termies couldn't start in a land raider taken as heavy support. That's what I couldn't find in the book.

Edit: It's not quite the same thing, but according to p.94 units in reserve can be embarked in non-dedicated transports and the two will be rolled for and arrive together.

Emeraldw
21-03-2009, 21:51
There is tau discussion but not Eldar.

Mechanized eldar works great, in fact I think that it's Eldar's main tournament list right now. I however don't run a mechanized list (though I'm working on getting one together) so I won't comment but if it works for tau, then I see no reason it doesn't work well for Eldar.

I'm not sure on Valkyrie stuff, from my own experience even if you do the shots as you say, it isn't going to cause enough damage to be worth losing the whole squad. Plus moving the Valkyrie 24" removes it from firing any decent guns, which cost alot. One thing I know for sure is that you pay out the nose for Skimmers and Valk's don't have the Wave Serpents or the Devil Fish's great defensive abilities. It's just a skimmer with armor 12.

ColonelGreiss
21-03-2009, 23:33
Any news on what squads (if any) can take valks as ded. transports?