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boogle
12-12-2005, 21:10
moving on from the discussion in 40K general, I'm seriously looking into playtesting some IG doctrines, what i'm looking for is an idea on which doctrines people would like to see playtested and i'm also looking for a playtest team.

so if any of you have some good ideas, feel free to post here or PM me and we'll see where we can go with them

IncubiLord
12-12-2005, 21:27
I might be able to suggest a few...
(Name - Effect; Doctrine Type)
Hive gangers - from Codex Armageddon as troops (complete with officers in the squads); ARD
Looters - guard that take Ork stuff; SE
Guard 'Dreads - 0-1 Elites, 1-3 in unit, 11/11/10, Dread CCW, 45 points + Sentinel Gun; RT
Hero's Tradition - All characters count as officers; SaD
Guerrillas Any non-vehicle unit may buy Scouts USR for +1/model;SaD
Limited Manpower - Change Infantry Squads to 5-10 and allow one per platoon to take a chimera; ARO
Ferals - Guard infantry, Storm Troopers, and Conscripts can be upgraded with +1S and +1W @+4/model; ARO
Ogryn Heavy support - A team of ogryn with a Battlecannon @ +50 pts, mimicing ML teams; RT
Supercharged engines Vehicle upgrade - +6 to all move rates @ +10/model; SE
Twin World Regiment - allow each unit to pick which of 2 sets of doctrines to take; ARO

boogle
12-12-2005, 21:33
there is a couple there that have potential, have a little look here though for an idea of where i'd like to take things: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18026&highlight=Doctrines

IncubiLord
13-12-2005, 00:16
No reason not to bring back human snipers.
You can VDR the trucks and use Grey Knight allies for the Space Marine option.
I wouldn't take a doctrine I can duplicate without using a choice.
A sentinel army seems wrong. Sorry, it just looks like sombody wanting to play an army of 60-70 point mobile heavy weapons.
Some of the others are similar to what I came up with, and I'd like to see the suggestions (even my own) fleshed out a bit more before we start making too many comments on them.

Easy E
13-12-2005, 00:30
I love the Trucks Doctrine. The Truck would be

Front Side Rear BS PTS
10 10 10 3 25
Type: Wheeled, Open Topped
Weapon: Heavy Stubber for +5 pts. attached to a pintle mount.
Transport- The Truck may carry 11 human sized models. it can not carry Ogryns.
Access Points- Open Topped
Fire Points- Up to half of the models in the truck may fire on the move per the normal rules for firing from a vehicle.
Special- Guard Infantry only. may not be combined with light infantry, drop, etc.

boogle
13-12-2005, 00:32
what do you mean abut the sniper, there are already plenty options for Human snipers, the SM idea i'm not a big fan of, but in certain circumstances (ie Macragge) it would fit in

IncubiLord
13-12-2005, 00:43
Space Marines are no longer human...
I was thinking of the Deathworld snipers - the only human with a sniper rifle that the guard currently has is in a squad of lasgunners (ratlings are mutants, they don't count). Not very sniper-like.

boogle
13-12-2005, 01:16
if you're talking about single sniper, then i think that they would be best incorporated into a Cityfighters doctrine

IncubiLord
13-12-2005, 01:19
I kind of liked the idea of updating the light infantry so their sniper could be off on his own, but the Cityfighters doctrine sounds interesting.

boogle
13-12-2005, 01:23
basically it would be:
5-20 man squads of troopers (no Armoured Fists, or Conscripts)
Heavy Weapons Teams can be split off from the Squads
Single Snipers
+1 Cover Save in Buildings

IncubiLord
13-12-2005, 01:32
Aside from losing the other Troops, that's a lot of benefit for one doctrine. Bunkers and ruined buildings are standard terrain, cutting the min. squad size is a big plus, and making the opponent pick off each weapons team individually was harsh in 2ed.
Is it a costly doctrine?
I could easily see this becoming "the doctrine" for IG armies.

boogle
13-12-2005, 01:34
thats the thing, that is the bare bones, if we were to 'take the ball and run' with this doctrine we would have to work formt he bare bones into a proper playtested doctrine

mfv
13-12-2005, 01:46
As far as the snipers I was thinking set them up like a hevy weapons
team 1 sniper and a spotter.:cool:

TWB
13-12-2005, 15:56
Hive gangers - from Codex Armageddon as troops (complete with officers in the squads); ARD.
Alternatively an upgrade for conscripts? Upgrade Lasguns to shotguns or ccw's at 1 point per model. Unit may be accompanied by a Senior officer.



Looters - guard that take Ork stuff; SE

How about a limited list from each appropriate codex, Shurricats/pistols, splinter rifles/pistols etc obviously nothing from nids or crons, unit could be required to have the Xenos Hunter Doctrine.



Guard 'Dreads - 0-1 Elites, 1-3 in unit, 11/11/10, Dread CCW, 45 points + Sentinel Gun; RT

Silly to add another vehicle like this, it's be better if it was an option to allow Senties to be taken as elites


Hero's Tradition - All characters count as officers; SaD
All characters DO count as officers, don't they? Is this because you want veteran sergeants with powerweapons?



Guerrillas Any non-vehicle unit may buy Scouts USR for +1/model;SaD
I like this


Limited Manpower - Change Infantry Squads to 5-10 and allow one per platoon to take a sentinel; ARO
This would change the ballance too much. Why add in a sentinel?



Ferals - Guard infantry, Storm Troopers, and Conscripts can be upgraded
with +1S and +1W @+4/model; ARO
I would say a "ferals" regiment would not be able to take any Stormtroopers/grenadiers, the tech would be beyond them.


Ogryn Heavy support - A team of ogryn with a Battlecannon @ +50 pts, mimicing ML teams; RT
Eww, apart from giving you a reason to use leadbelchers in 40K there is no reason for this.



Supercharged engines Vehicle upgrade - +6 to all move rates @ +10/model; SE
Optional straight line 6" move, difficult terrain test.


Twin World Regiment - allow each unit to pick which of 2 sets of doctrines to take; ARO
5 Doctrines is more than enough to make 2 distinct regimental types, this is open to way too much abuse.

Now on with mine.
Field Artilliery
Alternate Regimental Organizations:
The regiment either cannot use heavy Artilliery and tanks associated with the Imperial guard or it eschews their use for some reason.
Any Squad in an Imperial guard heavy weapons platoon (not command platoon) may be replaced for a single Field artilliery piece [insert points values here]. The field artilliery will form a single unit for all other purposes and will remain under direct control of the platoon commander.
Rapier Laser Destroyer.Unit type:Artilliery. St 9. ap 1. Range 72". Lance
Thudd Gun.Unit type:Artilliery. St 5. ap 4. Range 48".Heavy 4, Blast.
Mole Mortar.Unit type:Artilliery. St D6. ap D6. Range G12-60. Barrage.

Penal Legions.
Penal Legion: The Regiment is part of one of the Penal legions, it is either comprised of individual criminals who have been sentenced to penitent service or an entire regiment sentenced to the penal legions for some failure of duty or spirit.
This Doctrine allows you to take any other Doctrine from the Penal Legion list.
Penal legions can never be Drop Troops, Mechanized (this is generally thought too expensive for what is largely considered to be a disposable formation) or Grenadiers nor may they be accompanied by storm troopers, penal formations are more likely to be use to create a diversion for storm troopers than to fight alongside them.

Arbites Overseers. Although often released into the custody of the Imperial Guard, the Penal Legions are governed by the Adeptus Arbirtes, sometimes it will be required that the overseers guide their charges into battle to help them atone for their crimes against the Imperium. The Command Squad of the Command platoon is upgraded to an arbites overseer squad at a cost of 30 points. The officer’s stats are not affected (but he must be given carapace armour) but each of his bodyguards is upgraded to arbitrator
Arbitrator Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv+
3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 4+
Arbitrators are armed with shotguns, one can be armed with a grenade launcher or a heavy stubber for 5 points. Any number of arbites may swap their shotgun for a bolter at 1 point each, or a suppression shield and power maul (the power maul counts as a power weapon and the suppression shield confers a 4+ inv save and counts as an additional combat weapon) for 10 points each.
The officer may take a suppression shield at 20 points and may buy up to 4 cyber mastiffs at 10 points each. The Cyber mastiffs are followers and will be removed from the table if their ‘owner’ is removed.
Cyber mastiff Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv+
3 3 3 3 1 3 1 5 4+

Individual Command squads can be upgraded to be arbites overseers. No overseer squad may take benefit from any other Doctrine either directly or indirectly. Commissars are not included in an Arbites Overseer controlled army.
Arbites Overseer squads may be mounted in a Chimera as per Command squads, they may opt to mount up in Rhino’s instead, if this option is taken any Overseer squad must choose a rhino if they wish to be mounted.
A force must have the Penal Legion Doctrine to gain Access to this Doctrine
30 points per unit.


Special equipment: Frenzon Dispensers: The regiment has been fitted with frenzon injectors, these mainline noxious performance enhancing drugs into the system, whilst these are very effective the subject will loose any real cognitive power and become little more than frothing maniacs with no concern for self preservation, although in the penal legions this is not considered a problem. The injectors are activated when the unit charges, all models in the unit gain the Furious Charge ability, however, the unit will automatically fail any initiative test to break from combat and be wiped out.
A force must have the Penal Legion Doctrine to gain Access to this Doctrine
10 points per unit.

Special equipment: Explosive Collars: The troops in this regiment have been fitted with explosive collars, these devices are designed to keep discipline within the ranks in the simplest way, step out of line and you die. If the unit fails a Ld based test (morale, pinning etc) one member’s collar will detonate (obviously killing him, remove the model as a casualty) and the squad will automatically pass the failed test as the rest of the squad is reminded that there is no escape.
A force must have the Penal Legion Doctrine to gain Access to this Doctrine. May not be combined with frenzon dispensers (as the control mechanism for both interfere with one another).
10 points per unit.

Skills and Drills - Redeemed Sinners: Penal Servitude is usually regarded as a life, some would say death, sentence. Within the number of the Penal troopers there are a few are willing to become human bombers, that in death they may serve the emperor as they had failed to serve him in life. Once an individual decides to take this option he will be absolved of his sins for to volunteer is to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Emperor.
0-5 Redeemed Sinners can be bought as an elites option at a cost of 25 points each, they have the statistics of a standard guardsman and carry a Laspistol and Close combat weapon and a Bomb Harness, they cannot be upgraded in any way (they can not take ANY additional upgrades allowed or required by other Doctrines). Redeemed sinners are seeking death to absolve them of their sins, the terrors of war are nothing to them, they are independent characters who cannot join other units, they are also fearless.
The bomb harness is detonated in the assault phase in usual Initiative order if the wearer is slain before he gets to activate the bomb roll a D6 on the roll of a 6 it’s activated, if /when the wearer gets to activate the harness roll a D6 on a roll of 2+ it’s successfully activated, on the roll of a one the Redeemed Sinner has received the Compassion of the Emperor, the harness is a dummy, he will fight on (and quite probably die) as normal from then on. Obviously Redeemed sinners may never count towards victory conditions and may never claim table quarters.
A force must have the Penal Legion Doctrine to gain Access to this Doctrine.
The Bomb Harness is to all intents and purposes a Demmo Charge that is detonated by the wearer place the template centred on any model that is in base to base contact with the model.

more to follow.

boogle
13-12-2005, 15:59
hmm, i am lking a lot of those, i'll have a little asnooze and come up with more detailled descriptions on the ones i would like to bring to the table

malika
13-12-2005, 16:02
Ideas for Doctrines:
-Rhinos: they are probably the most common vehicle out there, so what about Rhinos for transports?
-Engineers: perhaps demolition charges and more types of grenades for Sergeants or the special weapons unit?
-Beastmen: sort of similar to the warrior weapons doctrine....however make these Beastmen stronger?

Helicon_One
13-12-2005, 16:46
I'd quite like to see some balance to some of the existing doctrines:

- Never in a million years is Warrior Weapons worth 2ppm, arguably it should be free, and certainly it shouldn't be an 'all or nothing' doctrine.
- Ditto Hardened Fighters. Worth 5pts per squad, tops.
- Mechanised is too unweildy when used with the platoon system, especially at relatively low sized games the compulsary choices take up too much of your army (a minimal platoon, AF squad and Command HQ are close to 700pts).
- As you can only buy 2 special weapon squads anyway, is it really worth the extra Doctrine point to bother?

Some new ones I'd like:

- Shotgun and/or Hellgun options for squads at +5 pts per squad (maybe one doctrine to allow both options)
- Allow Rhinos as transports - also give Salamanders a transport capacity of 6 and allow them as transports for Command squads and Elites choices. Actually, tie these options into the existing Mechanised doctrine, and you're halfway to making it both practical and interesting
- Stormtrooper Company: No messing around with the halfway-house Grenadiers....give every model in the army Stormy profile and gear for +4ppm (+10 for characters). Yes, that includes the heavy weapon squads (how cool would Stormies with heavy bolters or missile launchers look?).

Last but not least:

- a 'Stunties' abhuman doctrine! - +1T, +1Ld, all beards must be modelled!

As a general comment, I'm not keen on taking away a bunch of units and forcing players to spend a DP on bringing them back in, it would be more imaginative to have a more wide ranging doctrine which included the ability to use that particular unit as well as other related modifications. For example, instead of having Special Weapons Squads as a whole Doctrine by itself, include it as one part of the Light Infantry doctrine, and also include the ability to take 2 special weapons/sniper rifles per infantry squad instead of a heavy.

Tim

malika
13-12-2005, 16:55
What about troopers armed with jump packs?

Helicon_One
13-12-2005, 17:37
To follow on from my above comment, here's my initial thoughts on how I'd re-do Light Infantry:

-------------------
Light Infantry: +10 points per squad, must be bought for entire army.

All Imperial Guard squads gain the Infiltrate ability. In addition, any flak-armoured squad may also choose to downgrade their armour save to 6+ in order to gain the Move Through Cover and Stealth abilities. Any squad which chooses to do this may not make use of the Carapace Armour doctrine.

Sniper Rifle added to special weapons options for all squads, cost 4pts.

Any Infantry Squad may choose up to 2 special weapons at the normal points cost, if they choose to do so they may not include a heavy weapons team.

Any squad from a Heavy Weapons Platoon may be equipped with up to three special weapons, rather than heavy weapons. Note that you may not mix heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the same Heavy Weapon squad.
-------------------

You see what I mean about wanting the Doctrines to become a bit more wide-ranging? I was also thinking about removing access to vehicles apart from Sentinels, but whist more fluffy that might be a little harsh. Any comments welcome.

Tim

IncubiLord
13-12-2005, 19:13
Alternatively an upgrade for conscripts?
I wanted to avoid needing the Inf. Platoon to take them. Hive gangers shouldn't be a limited troops choice.


How about a limited list from each codex, nothing from nids or crons, unit could be required to have the Xenos Hunter Doctrine.
Could work. I just have ongoing discussions with a local Guard player about how stupid the arny is to not pick up the obviously better alien gear after a battle.


Silly to add another vehicle like this, better to allow Senties to be taken as elites
Add a Power weapon attachment option similar to the Hard. Vet. CCW and I'm sold. Senties are the toughest thing Guard has in CC and I actually envisioned majorly altered Senties as the "Dreads."


Is this because you want veteran sergeants with powerweapons?
Yes. And a Bone 'Ead with Power Fist would be scary.


Why add in a sentinel?
MUST PROOF-READ! Replace that with chimera. Good point. I typed these pretty fast...


I would say a "ferals" regiment would not be able to take any Stormtroopers/grenadiers, the tech would be beyond them.
Nice restriction. I wanted the Kanak close-to-Ogryn feel here.


Eww, apart from giving you a reason to use leadbelchers in 40K there is no reason for this.
Imagine tables where the tanks can't get around. If I was on such a world, this seems the only way to keep my best guns. Maybe tie it to a batlezone doctrine?


Optional straight line 6" move, difficult terrain test.
I could live with that.


this is open to way too much abuse.
Probably. I thought of limiting both sets to 2 or 3 Doctrines. Might not be do-able though.


Field Artilliery
I like Field Arty. Very Guard-like.


Penal Legions.
This seriously changes the Guard flavor, but looks amusing enough to make it.

Additional: I don't even play the IG! Just talk a lot with somebody that does.

Helicon_One
13-12-2005, 21:17
Quick question for those who have the current IG Codex (I really need to get a copy one of these days...), are the Regimental Organisation doctrines mutually exclusive?

I know that's a question for the 40K rules forum (although they'd probably just, and rightly, tell me to RTFM...), but it does tie into an idea I have for re-structuring the doctrines.

Tim

IncubiLord
13-12-2005, 21:54
<steals another player's IG 'Dex and leafs through back>
Nope, you can take them together.

Helicon_One
13-12-2005, 22:43
Thanks, that's what I thought.

In that case, I'll suggest that the Regimental Organisation Doctrines should be mutually exclusive and more extensive modifications than they are currently.

So when building a Guard army, you can pick 0-1 RO Doctrine which defines the overall theme of your force (although if you want to remain fairly vanilla, you don't have to pick any RO). Then, with the 4 DPs you have remaining you can pick from the equipment, skills and drills, etc to give more minor tweaks to your army.

My suggestions for Regimental Organisations:

Penal Legion (see TWBs post above)
Light Infantry (see my post above, probably needs a bit more though)
Drop Troopers (more akin to the 3rd Ed Elysian list from CA)
Mechanised (including more IA stuff)
Stormtrooper Strike Force (Grenadiers with knobs on)
Primitive Regiment
Skitarii (lots of Servitors, unusual tank variants, multilasers and plasma cannons as squad options)

The other doctrines should remain fairly minor tweaks, as now, but there should be more of them. Also, rather than having to buy back particular units as you do now, your choice of Regimental Organisation would also lock out certain options and doctrines from the list (mostly common sense stuff.... e.g. no Leman Russes or Ogryns or Warrior Weapons in a Drop Troopers army, no Stormtroopers or Plasmaguns or Bionics in a Primitive Regiment army). Actually, I'm thinking that perhaps the RO Doctrines should cost 2 DPs if they're going to be more extensive, but that's something to work out later.

Hmm, I kind of feel as though I've hijacked this thread now, is anybody else up for taking things in the direction I'm suggesting?

Tim

boogle
14-12-2005, 01:30
it's certainly something to think about, but i'm looking more at working on the most popluar individual doctrine and working on them rather than branching out of Regimental Doctrines

IncubiLord
14-12-2005, 01:44
I think having some big, double-cost, doctrines would be all right, and the idea of such doctrines being mutually exclusive is good, but I think that should be a different category.

I see it as the SM traits system. We have Minor Divergence, and you're talking about Major Divergence.

I would also consider something like sub-doctrines for these "Divergent Forces Doctrines". Make them a little less extreme and require them in order to take certain others. The Penal Legion Doctrine above is a good example. You don't have to have the redeemed sinners choice to play a penal legion.

mfv
14-12-2005, 02:07
Something like this was in the other doctrine thread:
Instead of just jungle fighters
how about terrain specialisation
you can pick tundra or mountain or desert just to name a few.

NorthernMike
14-12-2005, 05:24
I really like the snipers doctrine, however I would adjust the current Light Infantry so the sniper can be "left behind" or "detach" from the unit it was attached to. Then you might see some players acutally use light infantry for the sniper weapons. Individual snipers that work like the old cityfight or deathworld snipers would be nice as well though.

others:
Artillery Support Doctrine: Units that have a vox com may purchase this doctrine for +10 points in exchange for a heavy weapon team. The artillery support works like a mortar except that the target must be seen by at least one squad also with a vox. If there is a master vox, then all units with this option may fire in "barrage" effect. Also it can only be fired if the unit does not use its vox com for a ld based test.

"In the thick of it" Doctrine: Platoon officers do not have a command squad, instead must join a squad from the platoon. These platoons may have 0-1 fire support squads attached.

Specialist company Doctrine: This doctrine allows 1 extra Fast attack or Elite slot for each Heavy support slot left open.

Frontliners Doctrine: Armoured Fist and Infantry squads may purchase 2 special weapons but are not allowed Heavy weapons except in Command platoons and Heavy weapon platoons.

Valor and courage: Units must charge into combats that are taking place within 6" of they unit, with re-rollable attacks for that turn.


We are invincible! Doctrine: All units that are outnumbering the attackers do not have to take moral tests for losing combat. +5pts per squad.

ok so that last one was a bit of a joke. I wish GW would have a doctrine contest and they would make a small number of them chapter approved. That would really bring back the feeling that they care about our imput. Plus I bet we would get some killer doctrines.

IncubiLord
14-12-2005, 05:32
I'd like to see shooting into CC as a doctrine.
The idea that you leave your men to be eaten by a Hive Tyrant or Greater Daemon is pretty harsh.
In the Real World, I would shoot at the monstrous creature.
My men are already dead, they just haven't stopped moving.

Easy E
14-12-2005, 06:05
Rhinos- Units eligible for a chimera may replace that choice with a rhino. It will not benefit from the repair ability and have a BS of 3. The points cost is 40. Otherwise everything else is the same.

NorthernMike
14-12-2005, 06:10
As morbid as that is, that is actually a realistic IG doctrine IncuviLord.

I also just though of another

Power-shortage: The army has no access to las type weapons like lasguns (autoguns sub fine here), lascannons, or multilasers. And plasma and melta (slightly different) are limited to command and vets/stormies. This goes for tanks too! The bonus is that all balistic style weapons are 2 points cheaper.

or the inverse,
Ballistic supply shortage: This army may not purchase grenadelaunchers, bolters of any kind, autocannons, missile launchers, or mortars. Battle tanks my be replaced with LR Laserdestroyers (tankhunter one). Lascannons are reduced my 5 points thoughout the army.

IncubiLord
14-12-2005, 06:20
As morbid as that is, that is actually a realistic IG doctrine

Morbid? This tactic was the most disturbing part of facing the guard in 2ed. Everybody else likes to take their chances, but the guard didn't have a chance and they would happily blast apart a squad of their own to kill a big bad assault character.
It led to a much lower mortality rate for guard assaulted by anything, because sometimes they didn't kill all the guard!

Helicon_One
14-12-2005, 10:05
Allowing shooting into HTH plays hell with game balance though. The thing with Guard is that their shooting is ungodly powerful, but once you get into HTH you're fighting mediocre troops, AND you're safe from all those battlecannons and heavy bolters. If the whole army can carry on shooting you even when you get into combat.... that's a HUGE bonus to the army.

Tim

boogle
14-12-2005, 11:42
anyway, should i put a poll up of the top ten favourites and work from there?

Helicon_One
14-12-2005, 18:07
Out of the new suggestions, you mean? Sure, go for it. I think I'm going to do some work on the Regimental Organisations though and see what I come up with....

Tim

IncubiLord
14-12-2005, 19:33
Allowing shooting into HTH plays hell with game balance though.

I wouldn't mind seeing it limited to CC with a Monstrous Creature or Walker, and/or one unit shooting in/only units within 6." Self-preservation is important.
Plus, I don't want to see the IG unload tons of lasguns into those of my gaunts that actually make it to CC.
Remember, I'm helping the enemy here. :evilgrin:

Helicon_One
14-12-2005, 22:43
You then have the seperate problem that IG are getting exclusive access to the ability, though. You can make an argument that shooting into combat should be an option in 40K generally (I don't personally agree, but its not a grossly unreasonable opinion), but I don't see how you can justify IG doing it whilst armies such as Orks or Lost And The Damned or Tyranids, which are more likely to accept such unpleasantness, cannot.

Tim

Helicon_One
16-12-2005, 18:45
Thought of a new one....

----------------
Hotshots: this regiment includes a number of soldiers posessing some technical knowledge, allowing them to customise their lasguns to 'hotshot' models, sacrificing reliability and rate of fire for a greater punch.

Any Infantry Squad, Armoured Fist Squad, Hardened Veteran Squad or Special Weapon Squad may choose to give up any or all of its special weapon options and instead equip up to 2 Guardsmen with hotshot lasguns at a cost of 3pts per model (ie, Infantry and Armoured Fist squads have one special weapon option and so may take up to 2 hotshot lasguns. Hardened Veterans and Special weapon squads have 3 special weapon options and so may take up to 6 hotshot lasguns). Note that models in a Command squad may not take hotshot lasguns (the modifications are unsanctioned by the Adeptus Mechanicus and whilst most officers will turn a blind eye, they cannot be seen to tolerate any such infringements amongst their own staff)

A Hotshot Lasgun has a Strength of 4, an AP of 4, but may never rapid fire. Hotshot modifications should be represented on the model, for example a longer and/or wider gun barrel, or oversized ammo cell.
----------------

Tim

boogle
16-12-2005, 18:51
I like that, that's similar to an idea i had fro the Elysians (as in the Taros book, their guns are a single shot with a higher than normal strength)

Helicon_One
16-12-2005, 19:39
Really? The EDT lasguns aren't just standard issue? Didn't realise that (but then, as the book is shrinked wrapped on the shelf and sold out after about a week locally, sadly I've not been able to even get a sneaky peek at their new list).

Tim

Chaos and Evil
16-12-2005, 20:14
Really? The EDT lasguns aren't just standard issue? Didn't realise that (but then, as the book is shrinked wrapped on the shelf and sold out after about a week locally, sadly I've not been able to even get a sneaky peek at their new list).

Tim

No that's just an idea Boogle had, EDT lasguns have the same stats as a normal IG lasgun.

Well, except the one with the krak grenade slung under the barrel :)

boogle
16-12-2005, 23:26
yeah they are exactly the same, however, the background piece, states that most Bulpup lasguns were set to single shot only and had a lsightly higher power setting than normal lasguns, i was going to try out S4 AP5 Assault1 (and may still do the same)

Chaos and Evil
17-12-2005, 00:11
yeah they are exactly the same, however, the background piece, states that most Bulpup lasguns were set to single shot only and had a lsightly higher power setting than normal lasguns, i was going to try out S4 AP5 Assault1 (and may still do the same)


True I did notice that bit of background.

Mind you if I was an Elysian the first thing I'd do is find a helpful tech servitor and get it to set my lasgun back to rapid fire aka 'useful mode' :)

boogle
17-12-2005, 00:51
well they really need something as i've now been tonked by Tau and Smashed by Space Marines (although i gave him a bloody nose even without my heavy weapons squads and my unti of Vets with Melta Guns i forgot about)

Eduard
17-12-2005, 16:44
Well, except the one with the krak grenade slung under the barrel :)

How I wish that was something that would be available for regular guard, Such a cool piece of equipent:evilgrin:

Helicon_One
18-12-2005, 00:15
well they really need something as i've now been tonked by Tau and Smashed by Space Marines (although i gave him a bloody nose even without my heavy weapons squads and my unti of Vets with Melta Guns i forgot about)

If you liked the old style Elysian list from a few years back, I think you'll like the Drop Troopers Regimental Organisation doctrine I've written up. They're nearly done, I'm just trying to get the Skitarii RO finished (that's going to be a biggie). I'll probably post them in a few days.

Tim

IncubiLord
20-12-2005, 00:17
You might be able to get away with a combi-grenade launcher doctrine (las/autogun attached). The grenades aren't that powerful, and allowing certain units (maybe the stormtroopers and characters) to fire a grenade launcher once per game shouldn't get too out of hand.
It would be possible to play armies equipped this way via the grenadiers doctrine, but they would lose the numbers advantage that guard have against many races.
I might cut the range of such an attachment to 12", as it's not a full gun, but this could make it almost impossible to use.
Models with autoguns and underslung launchers would have a Colonial Marines feel like those from Aliens. Yeah, they're still dead meat, but they at least tried to be prepared for a nasty enemy.

boogle
20-12-2005, 00:33
the Elysians have those as they work fine (when they hit), my only gripe is they only fire a Krak Grenade, i would prefer the choice

Helicon_One
20-12-2005, 14:29
the Elysians have those as they work fine (when they hit), my only gripe is they only fire a Krak Grenade, i would prefer the choice

Presumably the launcher comes pre-loaded, and it does make sense that it would have a krak for the extra punch against heavy targets, giving the guardsman extra flexibility.

I can easily see a Grenade Tube doctrine for stormtrooper squads (they get all the fancy kit).

Tim

TWB
22-12-2005, 22:33
I wanted to avoid needing the Inf. Platoon to take them. Hive gangers shouldn't be a limited troops choice.
An entire guard formation derived from gangs would most likely adopt some kind of military structure. I suppose you could include a caveat that X amount of gangers counts as a platoon for FOC purposes, but 5-50 (or whatever) guys leaves a little too much flexibility.


Could work. I just have ongoing discussions with a local Guard player about how stupid the arny is to not pick up the obviously better alien gear after a battle.

Assuming he can work the damn things . . . .


Add a Power weapon attachment option similar to the Hard. Vet. CCW and I'm sold. Senties are the toughest thing Guard has in CC and I actually envisioned majorly altered Senties as the "Dreads."
I'm not a fan of inventing things to plug perceived gaps, the character of an army is as much to do with the absence of certain things as it is about the presence of others



Yes. And a Bone 'Ead with Power Fist would be scary.
Unfortunately, this still doesn't make it a good idea ;)


MUST PROOF-READ! Replace that with chimera. Good point. I typed these pretty fast...
Chimera is optional to a command squad anyway . . . .



Nice restriction. I wanted the Kanak close-to-Ogryn feel here.possibly drop a point in Initiative or Ld then?



Imagine tables where the tanks can't get around. If I was on such a world, this seems the only way to keep my best guns. Maybe tie it to a batlezone doctrine?
On such a table you make do ;) like in real life :p


appologies for my absence I'm back now.

Auxiliary Grenade launchers are wargear really, not doctrine.

IncubiLord
22-12-2005, 22:58
X amount of gangers counts as a platoon for FOC purposes
Also reasonable. Maybe make any taken as a mandatory choice have a larger min. unit size?


Assuming he can work the damn things . . . .
He'll grudgingly grant that any other aliens may be too advanced, SM would come to collect their stuff, and Chaos is just evil, but the Orks are DUMB! If they can make/use those guns, he thinks the guard can.


Chimera is optional to a command squad anyway . . . .
Once squads in the Inf. Platoon are 5-10 men, there's little point in having a seperate entry for the Armored Fist.


possibly drop a point in Initiative or Ld then?
I'd go with Initiative. It fits a high-G world theme and has precedence in the Salamnders SM Army


Auxiliary Grenade launchers are wargear really, not doctrine.
If given to characters, yes. If given to units, I'd make it a Special Equipment doctrine.

Easy E
23-12-2005, 03:59
Yes, please post a poll so we can focus on the most popular doctrine.

Kensai X
23-12-2005, 04:16
Laslock Doctrine:

Add +1 point per soldier to give the lasgun the stats of:

30" Range Str 3 Ap5

How's that sound? Perhaps Ap 6 and Str 4???

Helicon_One
23-12-2005, 18:02
Isn't the laslock a Chaos weapon, though?

Tim

IncubiLord
26-12-2005, 03:33
R30, S3, AP5, Rapid Fire = Extended-range hellgun.
R30, S4, AP6, Rapid Fire = Extended-range Ork shoota.

A hellguns/looted shootas SE doctrine wouldn't be bad.
I considered making an "Ork Looters" SE Doctrine, where each unit could replace up to 2 (maybe 3) weapons with Ork ones. It would use a conversion list, with lasgun-shoota@?pts, flamer-burna@?pts, ...
EDIT: Alternatively, it could be certain units may replace any/all weapons.

Eduard
26-12-2005, 10:53
Isn't the laslock a Chaos weapon, though?

Tim
I think The las-lock is just a single shot (kinda like bolt action) lasgun. I don't think it would have any beter stats.Actuallu, I would replace the rapid fire aswell, although I wouldn't know what toreplace it with,Heavy seems a bit to harsh I think.

Consider having to load an Duracel AA baterry after everyshot.::rolleyes:

edit: I suppose it's just the kind of weapon Imperial farmers would have to protect there houses.

TWB
26-12-2005, 11:48
There are two kinds of doctrines I've seen players "create" since the IG codex was released,
The first are the good type, the character doctrines, these are less concerned with making the regiment powerful and concentrate on giving the regiment a little flavour OR are aimed at representing a particular kind of force.
The second kind are the power gamer type doctrines, the type which have no real justification in a guard army other than the fact that it'd make an army particularly good at something (The classic example of this is the "shotgun" doctrine, which was conceived solely because people belived the ellysian drop troops should be exclusively equipped with shotguns).

We want to concentrate on making the first kind of doctrine, ones which add flavour but don't unballance an army.

Here are a couple I have as examples;
Common Soldiery
The officers of this regiment are drawn from the regiment itself, they understand their men better than an outsider appointed by the administratum ever could and fight alongside their kin.
Each officer joins an infantry squad instead of having a command squad (displacing a trooper), Senior officers (heroic or otherwise) can be platoon leaders by joining an Infantry squad in this way. Squads containing officers may take all usual options available to it, the commander may upgrade his squad to include a master vox and standard bearer, any officer may include a medic in his squad. Officers must join a squad in their own platoon.

Heroic Tradition
The regiment has a long and proud tradition of valour, performing beyond the call of duty time and time again, even amongst this number are exceptional individuals who exemplify the true qualities of a soldier of the imperium.
The army can take one additional honorifica imperialis per 1000 points of the army, these additional awards must be given to members of the Imperial Guard, not Sanctioned Psykers or Enginseers.

I hope these two illustrate the "character" aspect of the doctrine system over the "effect" aspect.

Easy E
28-12-2005, 05:44
Common Soldiery
The officers of this regiment are drawn from the regiment itself, they understand their men better than an outsider appointed by the administratum ever could and fight alongside their kin.
Each officer joins an infantry squad instead of having a command squad (displacing a trooper), Senior officers (heroic or otherwise) can be platoon leaders by joining an Infantry squad in this way. Squads containing officers may take all usual options available to it, the commander may upgrade his squad to include a master vox and standard bearer, any officer may include a medic in his squad. Officers must join a squad in their own platoon.

Codex: Catachan has a similar rule for their officers. All though I do not believe they replace a trooper, they are just independent characters. It sets a precedent for other Imperial Guard armies to follow. I think this would be a good doctrine.

In addition, I don't think the Shotgun doctrine would be so overpowering now in a rapid-fire world. Maybe it could be excluded from Drop Troop armies.

boogle
28-12-2005, 10:46
the shotgun is a good weapon for drop troops however

Helicon_One
28-12-2005, 13:08
I'd say that weapon swap doctrines such as Warrior Weapons, Shotguns, Hellguns, whatever else, should be optional on a squad by squad basis, rather than compulsary for the whole army. As a low cost option (5pts per squad, say), a shotgun doctrine is a reaonable choice, but forcing the whole army to swap makes them too narrow focus for my liking. Drop Trooper armies should be prime candidates for a shotgun doctrine considering their in-your-face battlefield role, but giving them to the whole army is pushing things.

Tim

Zark the Damned
28-12-2005, 15:30
One Doctrine I'd like to see tested is:

Field Medics (yes, I know it's been mentioned on other threads)
The regiment has a larger than normal medical corps, and as a result it's field medics are better trained and better supplied.
Up to one trooper in each infantry squad may be upgraded to a Field Medic at +5pts. A Field Medic gains a Medikit. Field Medics may not be Comm Operators, Heavy Weapon Crew or bear Special Weapons.

Helicon_One
28-12-2005, 17:30
My Regimental Organisations system is up now, if anyone is interested in taking a look:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20303

Tim