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Akuma
21-03-2009, 15:47
State your oppinions - with short explanations.

1. Ogryns Suck ?

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?

3. Rough Riders Suck ?

4. Everything is to expensive ?

vladsimpaler
21-03-2009, 15:57
Ogryns-They're 40 points. 'Nuff said. Unless hell freezes over, there is no good reason for them.

Had they not been so prohibitively expensive, perhaps they would have been a good second line, to charge that Ork squad. Not anymore.

Stormtroopers- 16 points for T3 4+ with Str 3 rapid fire weapons? Yeah...no.

Rough Riders-They're not PW's anymore. 'Nuff said.

Guardsmen are STILL overpriced.

erus04
21-03-2009, 16:06
So much anger about these rumors... This is my opinion on the matter:

Ogrn's are expensive, both point and model wise. Hence I have never used them. Do I think that they could have their uses...? Yes, but I'm not sure what they are.

Storm troopers would be great if they were scoring units. You might as well take veterans, thats what I am going to do. That being said, I also think that they could be usefull in certain situations.

And rough riders, the only one of these units that I actually use. Yes they got nerfed(3 pts more a model without power weapons). However, they are still going to be no more expensive then a unit of space marine scouts when you have ten of them. I think that they can still be used as diversions, countercharge(just for the added attacks into the combat), and for cannon fodder. I don't think that guardsmen are overpriced, I think that they come out fine. And as far as everything else getting more expensive, it is just to even out everything.

so I am happy with the new rumours and look forward to the codex.

Walls
21-03-2009, 17:44
I will continue to take Ogryns. No matter what!

Besides, the T5? No more autokills, better tarpit, do more damage, and they are rumored to have furious charge. Hello, mama!

souljaking09
21-03-2009, 17:47
Ogryns-They're 40 points. 'Nuff said. Unless hell freezes over, there is no good reason for them.

Had they not been so prohibitively expensive, perhaps they would have been a good second line, to charge that Ork squad. Not anymore.

Stormtroopers- 16 points for T3 4+ with Str 3 rapid fire weapons? Yeah...no.

Rough Riders-They're not PW's anymore. 'Nuff said.

Guardsmen are STILL overpriced.

Who gives a **** about points costs man. Just put whatever you want in your army and have fun. Chances are if it is balanced, it will be fairly competitive anyway. Why does everyone have to whine so much about points costs? Especially when they make so little difference in the final outcome of the game. 50 extra points on ogryns are not going to kill your army. So, what do you like about the new codex.:wtf:

souljaking09
21-03-2009, 17:48
I will continue to take Ogryns. No matter what!

Besides, the T5? No more autokills, better tarpit, do more damage, and they are rumored to have furious charge. Hello, mama!

OH YEAH! I am working on some ogre kingdom bull conversions and they are sweet. Haters can just back off. Ogryns will be in my army forever.

vladsimpaler
21-03-2009, 17:57
Who gives a **** about points costs man. Just put whatever you want in your army and have fun.

I care about point costs. Because, I want to fit in several squads of stormtroopers, and Ogryns into my army. But I can't. Guess why? Oh yeah, they're TOO $%@^@#ING EXPENSIVE!



Chances are if it is balanced, it will be fairly competitive anyway. Why does everyone have to whine so much about points costs? Especially when they make so little difference in the final outcome of the game. 50 extra points on ogryns are not going to kill your army. So, what do you like about the new codex.:wtf:

Okay, if point costs mean so little, then I'll use my 20 point Baneblade against your 100 point Grots. That's going to be a fun game. :rolleyes:

They can't be balanced if they're overcosted.

What I like about the new codex? I'm trying to think. Probably the uber Executioner just because it's fun to use, and probably Valkyries, even though they're a bit on the expensive side points wise. Oh, and Sly Marbo.

Raxmei
21-03-2009, 18:02
Upon careful scrutiny, ogryn appear to be slightly better than before. The problem is ogryn were pretty darn worthless before, and a slight improvement still leaves them a poor choice.

If the rumor that Rough Riders lose the power weapons is true, then they are now slightly better than the same cost in Guardsmen in close combat on their first charge.

Stormtroopers are a very expensive unit with a very narrow niche. The usefulness of this niche and whether the troops are even any good at it are both questionable.

The Griffon is a cheap, accurate ordnance barrage weapon with solid capabilities against infantry and light vehicles. Squadrons are likely to be horrific. Gripes include their inability to fire directly and lack of Ap3.


Points cost is part of balance. If you're showing up to 2000 point battles with an army that's only worth 1800 you're playing at a handicap. If your 2000 point army is filled with overcosted units that should only cost 1800, it's the same thing.

Shield of Freedom
21-03-2009, 18:14
I'm just the opposite of some people. I like where Stormtroopers are going and there is still the rumor that there is a way to get them as a Troops choice, and therefore a scoring unit.

I DON'T liket the new tank that everyone is talking about. The one with Strength 5 Heavy 20. Everyone keeps forgetting that it's only BS3.

20 shots from the main gun = 10 hits = 3-4 wounds on MEQ.
9 shots fromt the hull and sponson heavy bolters = 4-5 hits =2-3 wounds on MEQ
5-7 wounds with 3+ save means 2-3 kills on MEQ.

Whoopdi-*******-doo.

I can kill more with a Battle Cannon. Some of you might say "but they get a cover save most of the time now." Sure, but every weapon on that new tank allows the Marines to get thier normal 3+ save anyway, which is better.

I'm actually a Guard player that WON'T be taking that tank. I WILL be taking Storm Troopers.

souljaking09
21-03-2009, 18:15
I care about point costs. Because, I want to fit in several squads of stormtroopers, and Ogryns into my army. But I can't. Guess why? Oh yeah, they're TOO $%@^@#ING EXPENSIVE!



Okay, if point costs mean so little, then I'll use my 20 point Baneblade against your 100 point Grots. That's going to be a fun game. :rolleyes:

They can't be balanced if they're overcosted.

What I like about the new codex? I'm trying to think. Probably the uber Executioner just because it's fun to use, and probably Valkyries, even though they're a bit on the expensive side points wise. Oh, and Sly Marbo.

If everything sucks so bad, then why don't you just quit the game.

Faolain
21-03-2009, 18:22
What I like about the new codex? I'm trying to think. Probably the uber Executioner just because it's fun to use, and probably Valkyries, even though they're a bit on the expensive side points wise. Oh, and Sly Marbo.

Why do you think Valkyries are overpriced? They're cheaper and just as fast as a Wave Serpent, and can drop their troops off on the move.

MrBims
21-03-2009, 18:36
If everything sucks so bad, then why don't you just quit the game.

If you have no way of countering him, then why don't you just quit the thread.


Yeah, Ogryns, Rough Riders and Stormtroopers all got the shaft. This is pretty undeniable; without intentionally rigging situations in favor of IG, it is difficult to find a way for the three units to be able to make up their points cost in kills or support. Thankfully, the codex still makes elite armies viable with Hardened Veterans becoming Troop choices, and horde armies seem to be capable of putting up a fight, with the [slightly] reduced costs, orders system, and fixed KPs. I'd love to know for sure whether or not giving merged squads FNP is possible, because that would really tip the scales in favor of infantry hordes.

However, IG will probably now be forced to take special characters in order to be able to keep up with SM and CSM; that's something we're not used to doing at all, but GW seems to be forcing all armies in that direction. The SM codex doesn't look all that hot until you factor in the craziness that Lysander, Kantor, Vulkan, etc. can bring to specialized chapters. We'll need to start bringing Creed more often.

Poseidal
21-03-2009, 18:45
Why do you think Valkyries are overpriced? They're cheaper and just as fast as a Wave Serpent, and can drop their troops off on the move.

Actually, this is a good point. They're also just as tough and have an equal if not a better amount of armaments.

decker_cky
21-03-2009, 18:50
Rough riders having flamers makes up for a lot of the loss in power weapons. In a lot of situations, the grenades make them better (they can deal with vehicles, they can deal with units in cover, etc..).

They aren't the same autokill to any open unit anymore, but they aren't the single charge glass cannons that can't deal with cover either. You need a bit of support, so should have a supporting unit shooting with their charge. In a single charge against marines supported by a unit of guardsmen with a plasma gun:

8 laspistol shots cause .4444 wounds.
Let's make the flamers hit 3 times each (conservative estimate IMO, but you'll often be shooting from decently far out).
6 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saved.

Another unit of guardsmen lends some shots to support the charge.
2 plasma shots, 1 hits, causing .833 wounds
17 las-shots cause .9444 wounds (9.888 if the lasguns triple tap because of an order, but I won't include that).

Total pre-combat wounds: 3.222 so let's make it 3.

Charge in and have 21 attacks at S5 I5.This causes 7 wounds with 2.3333 being unsaved (decent chance of killing the sergeant too, but we'll ignore that).

4 marines attack back, and cause 1.18 unsaved wounds. Sergeant with fist adds another 1.11 wounds to make the combat a draw.

If the sergeant in the rough riders uses a power weapon, you cause another .333 wounds. The total average wounds caused is 5.88889, meaning the marines were pretty much crippled in the turn.

kultz
21-03-2009, 19:01
Souljaking, let people have their opinions. Stop hatin' the haters. =]
What is the purpose of this place, if it is not for anonymous folks to vent opinions.

1. Ogryns Suck ?
Don't think so. Not awesome. Not "MUST TAKE TO GO TO TOURNAMENTS AND BE COMPETITIVE". Definitely powerfist-proof. T5 solves the greates problem ogryns have.
Ogryns are not assault terminators. Same reason the avatar is not a wave serpent. The same reason the multi-melta is not a heavy bolter. Just because it looks the same size, costs similar, does not mean it does the same thing.
Context, folks.

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?
Previously, stormtroopers had basically lasguns. The only save ap5 denies are the saves that are useless anyways.
At ap3 they pose a decent threat to most infantry even in small numbers, allowing the units to function as actual elite strikeforce and not "A HORDE OF GUARDSMEN WITH CARAPACE, WE NEED MOAR LASERS".
Potentially undercosted, but only if it is too easily spammable.

3. Rough Riders Suck ?
No longer "SPACE ARABIC CAVALRY WITH MONSTROUS CREATURES STRAPPED TO STICKS"
Charge effect toned down. No longer "super killy,one squad, one use only", now is "not bad, move fast, nice charge, need a group of them". Deliberately moving towards "mass cavalry charges" instead of "suicide bombers".

4. Everything is to expensive ?
Context. Most of the power seems to come from the synergy of the army.
Let's say you have a hypothetical unit that only kills tanks, and a unit that only kills infantry. Is it logical to say "THEY HAVE GLARING WEAKNESSES AND SHOULD BE COSTED VERY LOW", then have an army of the two units working together?

noobzilla
21-03-2009, 19:01
I care about point costs. Because, I want to fit in several squads of stormtroopers, and Ogryns into my army. But I can't. Guess why? Oh yeah, they're TOO $%@^@#ING EXPENSIVE!



Okay, if point costs mean so little, then I'll use my 20 point Baneblade against your 100 point Grots. That's going to be a fun game. :rolleyes:

They can't be balanced if they're overcosted.

What I like about the new codex? I'm trying to think. Probably the uber Executioner just because it's fun to use, and probably Valkyries, even though they're a bit on the expensive side points wise. Oh, and Sly Marbo.


If you are really this upset over a points hike, stop playing Imperial Guard, its that simple. Sell your army and start over. Unless you were one of the people hoping to hop on the "Guard Bandwagon" Get off it now.

Stop complaining, if you want to have more of your specialized guys, then take less regular guys, its a simple as that.

Hulksmash
21-03-2009, 19:02
Guardsmen are not overpriced. Not counting frag grenades then each squad is 16 points cheaper than before. The only weapon that got more expensive was plasma guns. Everything else dropped or stayed the same so you are saving points.

As for stormtroopers i'm going to have to wait and see based on playing with them. There is normally a place for an elite unit in a army. You just won't be able to make an army of them. Though you could still have carapace armored vets to "count as" the old style stormtroopers.


Ogryns, again i'll reserve judgement until I see what's in the book overall to see if there is a place for them though based on the information heard so far I probably won't be fielding them.

Roughriders are still very useful especially since they can now tote special weapons and 2 ccw's. Hopefully they are still power weapons on the charge but if not we'll see. at 11 points I think they might still be useful but competing for FA slots against Valk's, Vend's, Sentinel's, and Hellhound Variants will probably mean that you rarely see them.

Overall I love the guard codex. Fielding a standard guard army i'm actually getting around an extra 150pts due to price drops so I definitely can't complain. I think the codex is a great step forward. It's built for 5th edition and based on what I've seen Guard will have at least a few competative builds that are capable of winning tournies.

blackroyal
21-03-2009, 19:05
Total pre-combat wounds: 3.222 so let's make it 3.

Charge in and have 21 attacks at S5 I5.This causes 7 wounds with 2.3333 being unsaved (decent chance of killing the sergeant too, but we'll ignore that).

The problem is that most marines have the option to fall back if you kill 3 of them so you then loose these 21 attacks. Shooting marines before the charge is not always the best option.

Kurisu313
21-03-2009, 19:05
1) I use Ogryns currently, because I love 'em. I hate the price hike, but until I can try them out, I'm not gonna complain, the additional point of toughness and FNP are helluva nice.

2) Stormtroopers are hard to say. The proposed points value sounds high, but again, I'lll wait until I try them to judge them.

3) If the loss of the hunting lance ability to ignore armour is true, well that sucks. I really hope it's not true.

4) Everything is too expensive? 5 point guardsmen with frags sounds fine to me.

All in all, I'm not judging each rumour induvidually. I am going to wait until I can try the army as a whole.

Hulksmash
21-03-2009, 19:13
If you have no way of countering him, then why don't you just quit the thread.


Yeah, Ogryns, Rough Riders and Stormtroopers all got the shaft. This is pretty undeniable; without intentionally rigging situations in favor of IG, it is difficult to find a way for the three units to be able to make up their points cost in kills or support. Thankfully, the codex still makes elite armies viable with Hardened Veterans becoming Troop choices, and horde armies seem to be capable of putting up a fight, with the [slightly] reduced costs, orders system, and fixed KPs. I'd love to know for sure whether or not giving merged squads FNP is possible, because that would really tip the scales in favor of infantry hordes.

However, IG will probably now be forced to take special characters in order to be able to keep up with SM and CSM; that's something we're not used to doing at all, but GW seems to be forcing all armies in that direction. The SM codex doesn't look all that hot until you factor in the craziness that Lysander, Kantor, Vulkan, etc. can bring to specialized chapters. We'll need to start bringing Creed more often.

I would like to point out that guard went down around 24% in points cost. That's before you count the addition of frag grenades. Marines didn't drop at all and only orks can claim a drop like that in cost recently (25% for shootas and 33% for sluggas). If you count the addition of grenades then it's a 34% drop.

With the addition of valks we can make situations favorable to use units like Stormtroopers. Not a lot of them but maybe a unit of them.

I don't think special characters will be required. And they certainly aren't required right now to be competative for SM's. There are some neat options that I'll probably experiment with but most likely i'll use a bog standard command. The only ones I'm really tempted by is Marbo (already got a killer conversion for my cadians made) and Straken just cause he's so dang tough! But realistically i'll be running standard commands in tournies.

Just some more thoughts

kultz
21-03-2009, 19:16
The problem is that most marines have the option to fall back if you kill 3 of them so you then loose these 21 attacks. Shooting marines before the charge is not always the best option.

12 inch charge. Marines need to run pretty darn far. Dare I say, far enough to take another round of shooting?

noobzilla
21-03-2009, 19:18
I would like to point out that guard went down around 24% in points cost. That's before you count the addition of frag grenades. Marines didn't drop at all and only orks can claim a drop like that in cost recently (25% for shootas and 33% for sluggas). If you count the addition of grenades then it's a 34% drop.

With the addition of valks we can make situations favorable to use units like Stormtroopers. Not a lot of them but maybe a unit of them.

I don't think special characters will be required. And they certainly aren't required right now to be competative for SM's. There are some neat options that I'll probably experiment with but most likely i'll use a bog standard command. The only ones I'm really tempted by is Marbo (already got a killer conversion for my cadians made) and Straken just cause he's so dang tough! But realistically i'll be running standard commands in tournies.

Just some more thoughts

Thats a great way to put it all into correct perception. :D

decker_cky
21-03-2009, 19:21
The problem is that most marines have the option to fall back if you kill 3 of them so you then loose these 21 attacks. Shooting marines before the charge is not always the best option.

Well....if you can get decently close, there's a good chance to get the charge in even if they fall back (in this case, you'll likely get 4-5 hits with each flamer), so the marine unit will likely be close to completely killed if they don't flee from charge range.

If they're further and they fall back, there's a pretty good chance those marines won't have a good shot in the next turn. For example, they're 10-12 inches away and flee 8+ inches, they won't be able to get in good shots and you'll have an extra round of shooting against them. If you have a unit that keeps enemy models away for an extra turn with guard, then that unit's done it's job.

Damocles8
21-03-2009, 19:22
The problem is that most marines have the option to fall back if you kill 3 of them so you then loose these 21 attacks. Shooting marines before the charge is not always the best option.

Use that wonderful speed to get 'round behind them....

decker_cky
21-03-2009, 19:29
Also, if they're far out in your charge range, you should be able to fleet forward while shooting the marines with 2 line squads pretty easily. If you're within 4-5 inches of the marines, fleeing likely won't do too much (and you likely have a good chance of hitting something else when you're in that range).

djinn8
21-03-2009, 19:32
The last game I played my russ did jack ****, my rough riders were an epic fail in combat, my inquisitor and ret did noting the whole game and my hellhound let off one shot that killed a single plague marine. That's quite a lot of points wasted there, somewhere in the area of 500 points. But you know what I still won the game because I played everything else right and pulled it back. Now lets look at these supposed "over costed" units from the new dex - how many more points am I going to be spending on them? 20? 50? 100? Am I going to lose the game over 100 points? No. I'm going to lose because my dice rolls were bad, my tactics sucked and my opponant pulls out a perfect game.

Treadhead_1st
21-03-2009, 19:35
The Ogryn thing annoys me as I was hoping to include some into my army when the Infantry drops in points.

Rough Riders - seem interesting now - I like that they are more than a single-use unit, before you'd charge a unit, decimate it, then have faster-charging Guardsmen (something not all that useful without major points upgrades like meltaguns and meltabombs).

I don't think Special Characters will be that important to the Guard codex. In the Marine book, you can get people like Vulkan (with scalable abilities, as the game gets bigger they simply give more bonuses) for the cost of a 10-man Tactical (or upgraded Scouts). If a Character costs 100+ (likely, Yarrick used to be in the 200pt range) then we can get a Battle Tank, or an Infantry Squad and a Heavy Weapon Squad, or a squadron of Griffons, or several Plasma Cannon-armed Sentinels. Normal officers still provide "Orders", so many characters only buff that/add an extra order to a unit that otherwise couldn't. This is a situational-at-best upgrade IMO, and (with perhaps the exception of Straken) you are investing a lot of points into one killy-but-easily-killable guy, points that would be very useful elsewhere in the army.

I will be sticking to my current army (90-odd Guardsmen and 3 Tanks) and shoe-horning in either more Infantry, some more anti-Tank teams and a Hydra (or some combination thereof).

The only thing that has me more miffed than the Ogryn is the downgrade to the Vanquisher - it looks like it's now a single-shot weapon (not large-template), and not even Ordnance (for re-rolls on damage table). I'm still going to take one, as an anti-tank tank will look good and be the head of my "squadron", but I'll loose a template (something I might make up for with the Hydra). I'll probably squeeze my Veterans back into the army too, now that they're scoring.

I essentially free up around 150 points with my army. By loosing 2 Sentinels I currently field I have 230ish points (and after 30 go into bumping Basilisk to Vanqusher), that's 200-odd points, not too shabby!

Lord Solar Plexus
21-03-2009, 20:44
So much anger about these rumors...


...and just as much apologetic rhetoric...seems a wash at the end of the day, doesn't it?


Who gives a **** about points costs man. Just put whatever you want in your army and have fun. Chances are if it is balanced, it will be fairly competitive anyway.

You mean as competetive as the current codex? Because that isn't even approaching a third tier army.

Everyone cares about points. They guarantee at least a semblance of a fair game. If people would not care about points, why do they play equal points values at all? I'm sorry but your remarks are so blatantly...well, I don't want to get banned but I strongly suggest that you think your posts through beforehand.


Upon careful scrutiny, ogryn appear to be slightly better than before. The problem is ogryn were pretty darn worthless before, and a slight improvement still leaves them a poor choice.


Ogryns have drastically improved, not slightly. Their stats or abilities are not the problem. They can actually fight in CC, a fight they needed to avoid at all costs before. Still, the price of them makes them the central unit in anyone's list, and that is not good.


Rough riders having flamers makes up for a lot of the loss in power weapons. In a lot of situations, the grenades make them better (they can deal with vehicles, they can deal with units in cover, etc..).


You don't believe that yourself for a second, do you? Because RR have to use their lances the first time they charge. S5 isn't epic fail against AV10 but grenades have nothing to do with it. Flamers? Since when do they ignore armour?

Anyways, the point is that this was a unit that did not need a change. It was decent enough. Not overpowered, not underwhelming, decent.



Context, folks.


40 points in the context of a 1,500 points list means not enough points left for At, or tanks, or scoring units. That's all there is to it.



Charge effect toned down. No longer "super killy,one squad, one use only", now is "not bad, move fast, nice charge, need a group of them". Deliberately moving towards "mass cavalry charges" instead of "suicide bombers".


Indeed. You need more of them. Why? Because they are drastically weaker. Thank-you for proving the point you were trying to defeat.



4. Everything is to expensive ?


Most everything is more expensive. In the context of a points limit, that is a huge problem. When scores of players on half a dozen different fora report that their current list is 1700 points instead of 1500 or similar, there must be some truth to it. Please note the problem is not that we have to adapt. We are willing to adapt. We expect to adapt and start afresh. If we must pull things from balanced lists to account for the rise before even adding new big boy toys, then something is awry.


If you are really this upset over a points hike, stop playing Imperial Guard, its that simple.

Simple solutions are for simple minds. You know what? Lay off that arrogant attitude of yours and stop asking us to put up with every nerf and weakness or change armies like underwear. We like the Guard. We like the game. We want to play. There are people who have lovingly painted up 200+ guardsmen,converted tanks, cavalry and scenery, and invested time and effort. All we ask for is a level playing field, something we did not have for a decade or so, and in the light of this, your suggestion is amphetamine parrot. Simple as that.


I would like to point out that guard went down around 24% in points cost.

How did you arrive at those percentages? A naked line squad before upgrades dropped by 16.67 %. A line squad with AC+PG is 8.5 % cheaper. Every tank except the Chimera is more expensive. Ogryns and H-Vets are more expensive.



Now lets look at these supposed "over costed" units from the new dex - how many more points am I going to be spending on them? 20? 50? 100? Am I going to lose the game over 100 points? No. I'm going to lose because my dice rolls were bad, my tactics sucked and my opponant pulls out a perfect game.

Hmm. I'm not sure whether anecdotal evidence is much to go by. I lost my last three games and all I needed was another squad. Who's right now?

Yes, your tactical acumen will play an important part in any game. However, as a benchmark for the codex or army it is irrelevant. You simply cannot assume that you will be the better player, yet still you do. That's assuming a best case scenario. For a sound analysis, one assumes players of equal skill and experience and average luck on both sides. In every other case, you're either relying on your opponent having a bad day or lucky rolls (or bad ones on your opponent's part).

Hulksmash
21-03-2009, 21:18
You left out the veteran sergeant. Sorry, maybe I should have pointed out I was including him. Making the old squad worth 66 points to the new ones 50. Hence 24%. Hardened vets before upgrades are actually 5 points cheaper than 10 w/a sergeant used to be.

souljaking09
21-03-2009, 21:24
Souljaking, let people have their opinions. Stop hatin' the haters. =]
What is the purpose of this place, if it is not for anonymous folks to vent opinions.

1. Ogryns Suck ?
Don't think so. Not awesome. Not "MUST TAKE TO GO TO TOURNAMENTS AND BE COMPETITIVE". Definitely powerfist-proof. T5 solves the greates problem ogryns have.
Ogryns are not assault terminators. Same reason the avatar is not a wave serpent. The same reason the multi-melta is not a heavy bolter. Just because it looks the same size, costs similar, does not mean it does the same thing.
Context, folks.

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?
Previously, stormtroopers had basically lasguns. The only save ap5 denies are the saves that are useless anyways.
At ap3 they pose a decent threat to most infantry even in small numbers, allowing the units to function as actual elite strikeforce and not "A HORDE OF GUARDSMEN WITH CARAPACE, WE NEED MOAR LASERS".
Potentially undercosted, but only if it is too easily spammable.

3. Rough Riders Suck ?
No longer "SPACE ARABIC CAVALRY WITH MONSTROUS CREATURES STRAPPED TO STICKS"
Charge effect toned down. No longer "super killy,one squad, one use only", now is "not bad, move fast, nice charge, need a group of them". Deliberately moving towards "mass cavalry charges" instead of "suicide bombers".

4. Everything is to expensive ?
Context. Most of the power seems to come from the synergy of the army.
Let's say you have a hypothetical unit that only kills tanks, and a unit that only kills infantry. Is it logical to say "THEY HAVE GLARING WEAKNESSES AND SHOULD BE COSTED VERY LOW", then have an army of the two units working together?

It's interesting because I have found all of these troops effective sometimes. And simply to have a characterful army, all of them will be included. AND I WILL WIN. If points costs become an issue, then I will play 3000 point battle.

I apologize if I offended any of the people that hate IG. Honestly though, just play another army. Go get some nob bikers if you want an easy win.

Arador
21-03-2009, 21:29
1) I use Ogryns currently, because I love 'em. I hate the price hike, but until I can try them out, I'm not gonna complain, the additional point of toughness and FNP are helluva nice.

There is no FNP.

Except for Nork Deddog. Because he rocks.

DarkMatter2
21-03-2009, 21:30
I absolutely agree with PRETTY damn much everything LSP just said.

The codex is a disappointment, and I think by and large for those who care about the Guard being respectively competitive it will be seen as such. Too much "Sternguard", not enough real meat. (For those whose response to the codex is, "VALKRYIES! WHOOOOO!" then more power to you :p)

I also agree with something someone said in one of the other roughly 90,000 threads on this topic going ATM that I would have preferred a more conservative codex.

The drop in Guardsmen cost is good (not as far as I would have liked, but fine.) That is about the only positive thing I have to say about this codex ATM.

Cruddace seems to have approached the codex in a truly bizarre way - as though it would somehow harm him to leave anything un-messed with.

What in the name of holy catshit made him think that taking away the PL of Rough Riders and then RAISING the price was a good idea? Without the PW aspect, RR are crap and I won't be taking them - which disappoints me because they were a unit that was fun to play with and reliable.

I would have preferred less shiny, useless options (TBH the current codex is long on those anyway) and more solid, low points cost moderate effectiveness units.

I mean...its like Cruddace literally SAW all the problems with the current Guard codex, decided to keep them in, and then went to the solid-to-good options and then decided to make it his personal mission to add upgrades so that he could overprice those solitary morsels of competitiveness into oblivion.

I'm not a hater - I am not going to stop playing Imperial Guard or 40k. I'm passionate about the hobby and the concept of the Imperial Guard was what got me into the setting and TT gaming alltogether. I'm just drastically underwhelmed, and part of the reason is that I had such high hopes that the Guard would get a respectable codex this time rather than a mere shuffling around of problems that remains at roughly the same power level.

Perfect Organism
21-03-2009, 21:40
Basic guardsmen and command squads are now a bit better for less. Tanks are a bit more expensive but a lot more effective, sentinels are now cheap enough to consider using and the new vehicles mostly look pretty powerful. Penal troopers, psykers and techpriests might be good depending on some specifics we haven't seen yet.

Everything else seems to be getting worse.

Veterans now have to pay a lot more to infiltrate, which was really their main purpose. Guard need infiltrators to deny enemy infiltrators a chance to set up in good positions at the start of the game (trying to sieze an objective inside an intact bunker which has a squad of eldar rangers in it is a bloody nasty experience), so I guess that leaves the job to ratlings, who are still a reasonable unit.

Stormtroopers look nasty against certain targets, useless againsts others. They will likely prove popular enough with people who only ever play against a couple of opponents, all of who field MEQ, but it would be foolish to take them to a tournament or other game where you could end up against an ork horde or something.

Rough Riders (assuming they really don't get to ignore armour with their lances) are rather useless. They aren't actually any faster than other units except for their long charge, so they can't really use most special weapons effectively. That means their only real role is intercepting assault units, but an equal number of points in conscripts, penal troopers or normal guardsmen would probably make a more effective human barricade.

Ogryns just don't look good enough to be worth the cost. An assault unit which can't move quickly and doesn't actually do all that well even when it gets there isn't much use.

I think the effective builds for this codex are going to be the gunline horde and the gunline with tanks (edit: or skimmers, if they work out better), with the latter being far more popular due to not having to paint so many damn models and actually having a bit of fun moving some units around.

Kalec
21-03-2009, 21:42
I don't understand why people think flamers are going to help rough riders so much. If they fleet, they aren't shooting. If they are taking full advantage of their 12" charge range, they aren't flaming either. Honestly, regular guardsmen use flamers just as well, and are far cheaper to boot. Why rough riders now cost more points, I don't know.

Stormies have their niche. Hardened vets, with their triple plasma and lower pricetag and being scoring units, aren't quite as good but are more cost-effective. I remain skeptical as to how good valks will be as transports, being about double the price of a chimera.

Ogryns got the stat-boost they needed, and the points boost they didn't. 6 ogryns, or 4 infantry squads with weapons, or a fully tricked-out executioner? I can't see myself picking the space ogres very often.

DarkMatter2
21-03-2009, 21:46
I think the effective builds for this codex are going to be the gunline horde and the gunline with tanks (edit: or skimmers, if they work out better), with the latter being far more popular due to not having to paint so many damn models and actually having a bit of fun moving some units around.

Gunline builds only work, in my experience, if you have Counterassault capabilities. Armies in 5th edition are FAST and will get to you quickly.

Now that RR are obsolete, we have no counterassault. I have NO IDEA how we are going to stop a rampaging mechanized assault marine force.

souljaking09
21-03-2009, 21:48
I don't understand why people think flamers are going to help rough riders so much. If they fleet, they aren't shooting. If they are taking full advantage of their 12" charge range, they aren't flaming either. Honestly, regular guardsmen use flamers just as well, and are far cheaper to boot. Why rough riders now cost more points, I don't know.

Stormies have their niche. Hardened vets, with their triple plasma and lower pricetag and being scoring units, aren't quite as good but are more cost-effective. I remain skeptical as to how good valks will be as transports, being about double the price of a chimera.

Ogryns got the stat-boost they needed, and the points boost they didn't. 6 ogryns, or 4 infantry squads with weapons, or a fully tricked-out executioner? I can't see myself picking the space ogres very often.

You know, guardsmen can only get you so far. If you are facing a tough CCW unit, they are going to be slaughtered. If you field straight guardsmen and vehicles, I think you will find yourself missing a piece to the puzzle.

Awilla the Hun
21-03-2009, 21:48
Rough Riders have no power hunting lances?

THEN WHY THE HELL DID I JUST SPEND DAYS AND WEEKS OF MY LIFE LOVINGLY CONVERTING A REGIMENT OF THEM OUT OF EMPIRE KNIGHTS, CADIANS, PISTOLIERS, AND INSANE AMOUNTS OF MONEY? WHY DID I SPEND ANOTHER CREATING A BATTERY OF HORSE ARTILLERY TO GO ALONG WITH THEM (well, at least that hasn't changed)? WHY DID I THEN ADD FLOCK TO THEIR BASES FOR A TOURNAMENT? WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DID THEY GET TAKEN AWAY, ONLY FOR THEM TO HAVE THEIR POINTS COSTS INCREASED?

It takes a lot to get Awilla angry and using caps spam, but this is one of them. I hear no one whinging (not even Ultramarine players, I believe) that "OMG, teh Rough Riders are soooo OP!" I hear people instead occasionally crying out for them to be better, but not so many people. Is this man Cruddace trying to lure us into buying infantry walls backed by overpriced tanks, rather than characterful, cool armies? Yes, without cavalry, armies look like they're engaged in modern warfare. So? Space Marines resemble knights with guns. Orks look like England football fans painting themselves green and going on a drinking spree. Eldar look like space elves in plastic armour. Why should the guard armies now look so damn dull?

Awilla the Hun
21-03-2009, 21:49
And I suppose that Officers can't go on horseback?

I approve or nod wearily at everything else they did, but this is beyond the pale.

souljaking09
21-03-2009, 21:49
Gunline builds only work, in my experience, if you have Counterassault capabilities. Armies in 5th edition are FAST and will get to you quickly.

Now that RR are obsolete, we have no counterassault. I have NO IDEA how we are going to stop a rampaging mechanized assault marine force.

Um, OGRYNS, STORMTROOPERS. Don't underestimate them.

DarkMatter2
21-03-2009, 21:50
THEN WHY THE HELL DID I JUST SPEND DAYS AND WEEKS OF MY LIFE LOVINGLY CONVERTING A REGIMENT OF THEM OUT OF EMPIRE KNIGHTS, CADIANS, PISTOLIERS, AND INSANE AMOUNTS OF MONEY? WHY DID I SPEND ANOTHER CREATING A BATTERY OF HORSE ARTILLERY TO GO ALONG WITH THEM (well, at least that hasn't changed)? WHY DID I THEN ADD FLOCK TO THEIR BASES FOR A TOURNAMENT? WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DID THEY GET TAKEN AWAY, ONLY FOR THEM TO HAVE THEIR POINTS COSTS INCREASED?


Wow. I really really feel for you especially.

Awilla the Hun
21-03-2009, 21:51
Oh well. If they get lasguns, I'll wave farewell to this lancers nonsense, and start painting up a 7th Cavalry style force. Or a force based on Uxbridge's men at Waterloo. Or both.

And this is from a player with only one regiment of horse in his army. Tallarn players (they exist, I believe) will probably be grabbing pitchforks and going to Lenton as we speak.

Walls
21-03-2009, 21:55
Ogryns have served me SO fantastically as counter assault. They've tarpitted terminators, Abaddon, Eldar Avatar... so many big scary things. Now with T5 they'll be even better for that. 6 in a Chimera will go in near every force I build.

Awilla the Hun
21-03-2009, 22:00
Tonight, those glorious, ill painted but beloved lancers of mine came close to killing Calgar, before drawing sabres and going for his assault terminators. The last charge of the Rough Riders. Long may it be remembered!

*Draws sabre* AT THE TROT!

At least someone's happy. Good on those Ogryns!

Lord Solar Plexus
21-03-2009, 22:06
I am more than happy for everyone who is happy with the changes, or the new models, or any other bits and pieces. Still, I'm huffy and grumpy, and that's coming from a usually quite positive person, and even when I manage not to let myself get dragged down by a beer and pretzels game (surely I must have spent at least as much money on beer and pretzels as on my dollies!) and not let it show, I'm still a tad disappointed. Why drop the lance rules? Why in heaven's name make heavy weapons T3 multi-wounders? (I promise you we will have more than one batrep where they die like flies.) Why did we have to lose the Ld bubble? Vet Sergeants in every squad? I'm sorry, but I don't think Guard players as a whole wanted to be more like SM.

Of course there are many nifty things. Psykers will be ace. Question: Did anyone of you Guard players really hope to get a Seer Council without fortune? I must confess this thought had never crossed my mind. ;)


I absolutely agree with PRETTY damn much everything LSP just said.


That's awfully nice of you! :)



I also agree with something someone said in one of the other roughly 90,000 threads on this topic going ATM that I would have preferred a more conservative codex.


Absolutely! I couldn't have expressed it any better.


Basic guardsmen and command squads are now a bit better for less.


Yes, they are better and cheaper. Still, all savings are eaten up rapidly if one wants to include anything else. This is a huge and IMO underestimated problem because despite good cover saves and all that we deperately need scoring units. We cannot simply spam tanks or skimmers without giving any thought to how we'll fare in objective missions. If someone does include multiple tanks - not Griffon squadrons, AV 14 MBT's -, the increased firepower will be nullified by less line squads.

Cane
21-03-2009, 22:07
As a third edition Guard player that started playing 5th, I am very excited about the new codex. Finally we have some much needed versatility through fast attack options and tanks that can move and shoot all their weapons.

The new codex makes the Guard a fun and capable army to play compared to its other incarnations just as long as the whole kill point/platoon thing is taken care of well which its been rumored to be. The old Guard dex punishes the player way too much for trying to use the movement phase which simply does not work well in missions that are dependent on mobility.

Fast attack skimmers, new Hellhound variants (Devil Dog, etc), cheap Chimera's, lumbering behemoth, advisors, special characters, cheaper and better equipped Guardsmen all sound good and fun to me.

The only downside I've seen? CC units like Ogryns and Rough Riders had changes to them and aside from the non PW lances the changes seem to balance out with their point cost. After all our weakness is supposed to be CC so it wouldn't be right for us not to pay a hefty amount of points for 'em. I do wonder if GW uses algorithms or some sort of science/math to justify points costs....Blizzard alluded they have some kind of mathematical system that helps them balance out the various player classes and it'd be great if GW did the same.

Awilla the Hun
21-03-2009, 22:13
No leadership bubble? *Gets kicked in teeth*

I already worked out that, in terms of size, my IG would be about the same (expensive tanks make up for cheap infantry.) So why did they bother to get a new edition? It will play virtually the same, except NO GODDAM CAVALRY!

All cavalry commanders, please report to my request in the Tactica Imperial thread.

Now I've said my peace, I will begin to watch in horror.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-03-2009, 22:15
As a third edition Guard player that started playing 5th, I am very excited about the new codex. Finally we have some much needed versatility through fast attack options and tanks that can move and shoot all their weapons.


We currently have two extremely nice FA options in the form of HH and RR. Both are getting weaker. The third will have more weapon options, sometimes better armour, and be somewhat cheaper but at the end of the day I don't see much reason for euphoria here.



After all our weakness is supposed to be CC so it wouldn't be right for us not to pay a hefty amount of points for 'em.

Tyranids - an army traditionally associated with assault - get dakkafexes. Orks - an army traditionally associated with assault - get Lootas. Chaos - an army traditionally associated with assault, even though admittedly to a lesser degree - gets Oblits. All of these are cheap or quite affordable.

Why again should we not get an affordable, capable CC unit?

Cane
21-03-2009, 22:16
All cavalry commanders, please report to my request in the Tactica Imperial thread.


As much as I love my converted Raptor-riding Rambo's, it makes some sense for horseback cavalry to take a step back behind REAL cavalry like the Valkrie and Devil Dog =D

Torga_DW
21-03-2009, 22:16
If guard get balanced anything near how blizzard balances their classes in wow, we're screwed. Otherwise i'm refraining on comment until i get the codex in my hands and see exactly whats what.

souljaking09
21-03-2009, 22:16
Rough Riders have no power hunting lances?

THEN WHY THE HELL DID I JUST SPEND DAYS AND WEEKS OF MY LIFE LOVINGLY CONVERTING A REGIMENT OF THEM OUT OF EMPIRE KNIGHTS, CADIANS, PISTOLIERS, AND INSANE AMOUNTS OF MONEY? WHY DID I SPEND ANOTHER CREATING A BATTERY OF HORSE ARTILLERY TO GO ALONG WITH THEM (well, at least that hasn't changed)? WHY DID I THEN ADD FLOCK TO THEIR BASES FOR A TOURNAMENT? WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DID THEY GET TAKEN AWAY, ONLY FOR THEM TO HAVE THEIR POINTS COSTS INCREASED?

It takes a lot to get Awilla angry and using caps spam, but this is one of them. I hear no one whinging (not even Ultramarine players, I believe) that "OMG, teh Rough Riders are soooo OP!" I hear people instead occasionally crying out for them to be better, but not so many people. Is this man Cruddace trying to lure us into buying infantry walls backed by overpriced tanks, rather than characterful, cool armies? Yes, without cavalry, armies look like they're engaged in modern warfare. So? Space Marines resemble knights with guns. Orks look like England football fans painting themselves green and going on a drinking spree. Eldar look like space elves in plastic armour. Why should the guard armies now look so damn dull?

Rough Riders are fine. Whiners are just biTching and moaning.

Nym
21-03-2009, 22:25
If the Ogryn Bone'Ead can buy a Power Weapon, they will probably have a place in my lists. Otherwise... I certainly don't want to spend 200pts for a tarpit.

Cane
21-03-2009, 22:25
We currently have two extremely nice FA options in the form of HH and RR. Both are getting weaker. The third will have more weapon options, sometimes better armour, and be somewhat cheaper but at the end of the day I don't see much reason for euphoria here.

The only downside I see is the lack of lances being PW's for RR. Thats it. The rest is incredibly awesome as our FA has been increased incredibly.

And I don't know if you guys realize this or not, but GW wants us to buy Valks and Vendettas since not only are they great points/rules wise but they are the new models =D



Tyranids - an army traditionally associated with assault - get dakkafexes. Orks - an army traditionally associated with assault - get Lootas. Chaos - an army traditionally associated with assault, even though admittedly to a lesser degree - gets Oblits. All of these are cheap or quite affordable.

Why again should we not get an affordable, capable CC unit?

We do. They're called Rough Riders, Sentinels, Conscripts, etc. I'm not sure what you want or had IG CC to be, but its always been subpar as its the nature of the army. No other force out there has the potential to field as many pie plates or effective ranged weaponry as the Guard (not saying that the Guard wins because of this though due to Kill Points but that should be changing too) and we still have quite a few options.

Johnnyfrej
21-03-2009, 22:27
I don't know about you all but I'm LOVING the sound of this new Codex! Now I can finally potentially field at least half of my beloved Basilisks (that's 9 for you slower nobz). I am especially excited about Orders.

40 points for T5, 3W, Stubborn and Furious Charge Ogryns that can take Orders? Yes Please! I know at least 6 are going to be fielded in any game I can squeeze.

Stormtroopers... I'll hold judgement. They might have a few tricks.

Rough Riders... converted a squad of 8 but never got around to using them. Now if they lose their PWs I will definately not use them but since they are competing with Hellhounds and Sentinels I doudt I would ever have room.

Manticores? Hydras? Griffons? Colossus? And I can take them in squads?! It's an Artilleryman's dream come true! :D

Lord Solar Plexus
21-03-2009, 22:28
Rough Riders are fine. There is just a lot of biTching and moaning going on.

You didn't mean to say sycophantic fanboidom by chance, did you? Because it appears to me that as soon as someone points out a flaw or weakness or aspects he doesn't like, he is accused of nerd rage, or whin(g)ing, moaning and bitching, and it is suggested he sells his models, plays a different race or commits suicide.

I really do not know where you take the legitimation and chuzpe from to throw out random personal offences while expecting all others to present neatly arranged arguments.


The only downside I see is the lack of lances being PW's for RR. Thats it. The rest is incredibly awesome as our FA has been increased incredibly.


That's a lot of incredibility, so I'm not sure how much of that I should believe. :)

Yes, of course they want to sell the skimmers, and that's fine with me. In the case of the Vendetta, it also relegates at least three other units (Vanquisher, AT-SS, LC-Sentinels) to second division. Why ever use any of these AT options when they're all worse for one reason or the other? I'm sorry but I really think it is a sign of a good codex when most units are equally useful.



We do. They're called Rough Riders, Sentinels, Conscripts, etc. I'm not sure what you want or had IG CC to be, but its always been subpar as its the nature of the army.

Rough Riders will lose against MEQ's and hordes. Don't deceive yourself. Sentinels are indeed a bit better now, credit where credit is due. They aren't even a mediocre CC unit though, AV 12 notwithstanding. I3, A1 will see to that. Conscirpts may be a nice tarpit with a commissar but if, as you assert, our firepower is so good, what do we need a tarpit for? They won't kill anything in CC that the same amount in point spent on guns wouldn't kill anyways.

"It's always been this way" simply isn't an argument, especially not when everything changes. Is it the nature of Orks to be good shots? If not, then why are they?


I don't know about you all


Why not? Didn't I make myself perfectly clear or are you simply ignoring certain POV's?



but I'm LOVING the sound of this new Codex! Now I can finally potentially field at least half of my beloved Basilisks (that's 9 for you slower nobz).


Explain that. I do not understand why anyone would love that. You'll have three open-topped, mainly AV10 squadrons (=targets) that are impossible to hide and will be able to shoot at three targets a turn, which is pretty much the definition of overkill, and cost 1125 points to boot (which may or may not be an issue).

Hulksmash
21-03-2009, 22:50
Wow, you took that pretty seriously and personally Plexus. I have to say that the general overtone of disgust and the amount of whining (and that is what it is for the most part) over something we haven't seen the whole picture of or played with that is here is mildly annoying. Are there somethings that might be sub par in the new dex? Probably. Are there something that might be great? Probably. But the major overtone gets very tiresome. If you don't like it you can say so. But everytime someone says they do like something or to possibly hold out judgement more people scream "oh no, the codex sucks!". If you don't like what your hearing then you are more than able to say so but let's keep it to saying you don't like something once, instead of the 100 times some people are saying things.

Note: this is not directed at you in particular Plexus

Cane
21-03-2009, 23:07
That's a lot of incredibility, so I'm not sure how much of that I should believe. :)

Hehe. I think the new FA options are incredibly incredible because coming from third edition the amount of options we have is simply outstanding now. If you told me the Guard would be getting great FA transport skimmers back in the third edition I'd call you crazy (but would secretly love the idea); same deal with the lumbering behemoth rule and having our tanks actually act like tanks than a glorified heavy weapons team.



Why ever use any of these AT options when they're all worse for one reason or the other? I'm sorry but I really think it is a sign of a good codex when most units are equally useful.

I see what you mean, but the different AT options all have their own unique characteristics that have their own impact on gameplay. We can now choose from a variety of AT: squishy Guardsmen squads, not as squishy special infantry squads, treaded and AV14 AT, walker AT that can also CC, and lastly the awesome skimmer AT.



Rough Riders will lose against MEQ's and hordes. Don't deceive yourself. Sentinels are indeed a bit better now, credit where credit is due. They aren't even a mediocre CC unit though, AV 12 notwithstanding. I3, A1 will see to that. Conscirpts may be a nice tarpit with a commissar but if, as you assert, our firepower is so good, what do we need a tarpit for?

I definitely agree that our CC is nothing to write home about and they always seemed to me as "buffer" units in the end - they engage CC to either finish off their opponent or hold the line so the other shooters or counter assaulters can get ready to rinse and repeat.



"It's always been this way" simply isn't an argument, especially not when everything changes. Is it the nature of Orks to be good shots? If not, then why are they?


I'm going to have to disagree strongly. The very nature of the IG army is centered around lots of guns, tanks, and infantry and always has been. Downside, they get owned in assault. Coming from third edition, not that much has changed since the core concept has remained more or less the same for armies across the board.

What I have noticed GW has done from third to fifth is that they've added a lot of versatility to all armies that have been updated and IG was one of them that really lacked in this respect all the while the general strengths/weaknesses have stayed the same.

I also think another reason for the seemingly unparalleled amount of options the IG can field is to allow us GW customers to field any kind of army we want. Air Cav, Armored Cav, horseback cav, deathworld veterans, etc - GW's IG army list has expanded to allow our wallets to meet our imaginations like never before.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-03-2009, 23:10
Wow, you took that pretty seriously and personally Plexus.


Not at all, smash, not at all. I never take a game of toy soldiers personally. I'm not here to say the codex sucks or to flame anyone. I will be the first to extend olive branches left, right and centre if it turns out I've been wildly exaggerating or whatever else.

That doesn't mean I will not speak my mind.



I have to say that the general overtone of disgust and the amount of whining (and that is what it is for the most part) over something we haven't seen the whole picture of or played with that is here is mildly annoying.


To be honest, the whole last week we got info from people who have seen the codex or even continued access to it. There will surely be some missing pieces but seeing how accurate the intel was on the other younger codices, I have little reason to doubt its accuracy.



But everytime someone says they do like something or to possibly hold out judgement more people scream "oh no, the codex sucks!".


Funny, I thought it was the other way around. Let's not beat each other over such minor differences in perception, shall we? :)



If you don't like what your hearing then you are more than able to say so but let's keep it to saying you don't like something once, instead of the 100 times some people are saying things.


Well, this is a discussion. Everyone simply stating his opinion once is a list. I'm afraid I must strongly disagree with your suggestion to compile a list of opinions. This thread especially is about what we expect/fear/hope from/for the new 'dex.

Treadhead_1st
21-03-2009, 23:13
I'm liking this 'Dex.

I've done some work based on the rumoured points costs, and I am freeing up 217pts. That means I can take 2x Russ, a Vanquisher and a Hydra (or a Fast Tank if I don't want to squadron the two single Russes) and still have over 100 infantry of which 85 at least are scoring (mins HQ and 2x Mortar Squads). Heck, I could easily go over 125 infantry and keep my 3x AV14 battle tanks (two of which have pie-plates, the other an anti-tank cannon), or load up on some Plasma Cannon Sentinels (to make up for the loss of pie-plate). Not that I need too many pie-plates, with 14 blast weapons scattered through the army.

How is any of that bad - 4 tanks and 100 infantry, all of whom can recieve orders (from 3 Lieutenants and a Company Commander).

At 1500 points.

If you can't guess, I'm a happy, happy man.

Ok, I'm not going to touch Storm Troopers (unless a small unit is relatively cheap, to screen my Russes as they move), and I probably now won't take Ogryn (so I can squeeze in the Hydra - that'll be pretty good at keeping infantry away from the tanks, even if not in assault like Infantry/Sentinels can) as they're slightly too expensive compared to how many points will be freed up by the changes. I'm determined to not take any Imperial Navy units - I'd want to go full on AirCav and I simply cannot afford it (We Were Soldiers is one of my favourite films) with the price of the Valkyrie kit, and the cost of army transports to lug them around in. Everything else is looking shiny though - the Vanquisher is a little cheaper than the FW variant to make up for the loss of Blast (155 with HB vs 180 with HB) which means it can just about slip into my army (I'm running it with hull HB and a Stubber for looks, sod the fact the Lascannon is better, my Russes have LCs for anti-Monster work) for less cost than my other MBTs (and the HB/Stubber is still entertaining against light-vehicle squadrons like War Walkers if you've no better targets, especially if you can afford the Tank Commander blokey to get +1AP vs Vehicles).

I never fielded RR before so I'm not upset about that, it'll be interesting to see if they are still useful (they still wound Marines and Orks on 3s - might be handy against Ork nobz even if those guys get thier saves [since you can't stop them reaching your lines every time]). But perhaps our "counter-charge" now has to come from Demo-Charge guardsmen, who we seem to be able to take in larger quantities.

The Tanks are +5 basic cost (if you took Hull Heavy Bolter beforehand) for Behemoth and +1AV Side. My LAscannon/Stubber/Smoke tanks are only 5pts more than they used to cost (thanks to cheapening of upgrades), so I'm liking that (and can easily afford it).

My Vox Network will be useful again (all my units have a Vox, and I'm hoping to use "Bring It Down!" with my 3x Melta/Power Fist Veteran Squad - should be entertaining), and it means that single squads can get lashed/fall back/split by terrain/anything else and still benefit from some sort of order (how useful this will be I don't know, but it's a fun concept nonetheless - and useful for keeping remnants of squads in the fight even if they've run near to the board edge.

Aegius
21-03-2009, 23:16
I only play 2 armies atm, although I do have some painted guard models that I may add to when the new models come out. 1 of my armies is meq(marines) the other is geq(eldar). So I'm going to compare the guard units that people are complaining about to my geq army.

Ogryns: For me to field ogryns, the closest unit that I have are Wraithlords, (you could argue Wraithguard, but they are not multi wound models.) These cost at least 100pts each and come with T8 and 3W, but take up a valuable heavy support slot. I actually think that both these units can fulfill a similar CC role, so..........ogryns= made of win. (that is unless you think that wraithlords need a boost.)

Stormtroopers: I'm really looking at Howling banshees to fill the same gap here. An elites slot with T3, S3, a 4+ save and ignores a marines armour save. I have to pay 16pts for these girls and they cant even infiltrate. You could argue that firedragons are a better choice, but as our only viable anti-tank choice, you aren't going to be taking out the marines with these guys, but the predators, vindicators and landraiders.

valkerie: I'd kill for something that costs this little and floats around in my eldar codex. yes, it does cost more than a chimera! But it is a million billion times better than a chimera.

Guardsmen: I get to pay almost twice the price of your basic troop. What do I get? +1I. Wow +1I that works really well for my guardian defenders. If I want to put them in a transport, I have to pay at least 100pts. guardsmen are getting a MASSIVE boost as far as I am concerned.

eeeeeeep! I almost missed out

Rough riders: Did someone say they are going up to 11pts each and they are getting furious charge? I pay 35pts for anything even close to this,(shining spears) but if I charge someone in cover, not only am I striking last, but I have to take a dangerous terrain test for every model that charged. I'm going to add that my maximum unit size is 5 and each model(other than the exarch upgrade) only has 1 attack per model or 2 on the charge. Yes they do have a s6 power weapon ON THE CHARGE. but they sure as hell pay a lot more than rough riders for it.

After all that I've written, I'd like to point out that I'm not moaning about the Eldar, in fact, I'm using a majority of the models described in my highly successful all comers list(especially the wraithlords). I just wanted to point out that there is an angle that is not just OMGMARINESAREWHATWESHOULDCOMPAREOURARMIESTOZOR!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

If we compare marine costs to the eldar, then shining spears should be 25-30pts. More in line with marine bikers.

captainramoz
21-03-2009, 23:31
Ogryns-They're 40 points. 'Nuff said. Unless hell freezes over, there is no good reason for them.

Had they not been so prohibitively expensive, perhaps they would have been a good second line, to charge that Ork squad. Not anymore.

Stormtroopers- 16 points for T3 4+ with Str 3 rapid fire weapons? Yeah...no.

Rough Riders-They're not PW's anymore. 'Nuff said.

Guardsmen are STILL overpriced.
What are u okay the entire guardsman squad is only 50 points are u okay 50 point for 10 guards and orgryns have 3 attacks and strenght an resistance 5:mad::mad::mad:

Lord Solar Plexus
21-03-2009, 23:41
Hehe. I think the new FA options are incredibly incredible because coming from third edition the amount of options we have is simply outstanding now. If you told me the Guard would be getting great FA transport skimmers back in the third edition I'd call you crazy (but would secretly love the idea); same deal with the lumbering behemoth rule and having our tanks actually act like tanks than a glorified heavy weapons team.


Lots of goodies, eh? :) If it turns out that RR keep their PW and Hellhounds don't lose half their range, then I immediately retract every negative statement I've ever made.



We can now choose from a variety of AT: squishy Guardsmen squads, not as squishy special infantry squads, treaded and AV14 AT, walker AT that can also CC, and lastly the awesome skimmer AT.


We do have variety, yes. Do you know what happens to variety in a competetive environment (I really shouldn't care that much seeing as I play only with friends but it does irk me)? It goes down the drain; people use the strongest/most cost-efficient unit.



I'm going to have to disagree strongly. The very nature of the IG army is centered around lots of guns, tanks, and infantry and always has been. Coming from third edition, not that much has changed since the core concept has remained more or less the same for armies across the board.


I've been playing Guard since 2nd edition, and I completely agree that this IS the basic concept. On the other hand, there have always been Ogryns and the like, and they've always been intended for CC. If they aren't any good at it, why are they in the codex, and why should anyone use them? Note that I think that they will be quite good but I don't like the idea of having one unit on whose success my whole army depends upon. Still, when you look at the Ork codex, there isn't a single unusable unit with one single exception.



I also think another reason for the seemingly unparalleled amount of options the IG can field is to allow us GW customers to field any kind of army we want.

Then they better make them work. Not many people are going to buy the usual suspects (we've mentioned them a few times by now).


I'm liking this 'Dex.

I've done some work based on the rumoured points costs, and I am freeing up 217pts.

I'm intrigued. Can you elucidate a little on where those savings come from and how they add up?



Ogryns: For me to field ogryns, the closest unit that I have are Wraithlords, (you could argue Wraithguard, but they are not multi wound models.) These cost at least 100pts each


Uh...T8, MC, S10 powerweapon makes Ogryns flinch. Not as much as a commissar but still. Wraithlords also have some nifty long-range guns, so the comparison is really skewed.



Stormtroopers: I'm really looking at Howling banshees to fill the same gap here. An elites slot with T3, S3, a 4+ save and ignores a marines armour save. I have to pay 16pts for these girls and they cant even infiltrate.


ST's cannot infiltrate either. They also cannot be fortuned, or guided, and their target cannot be doomed. I don't think these comparisons lead anywhere; they're completely different.



Guardsmen: I get to pay almost twice the price of your basic troop. What do I get?


Move-and-fire weapons!



Rough riders: Did someone say they are going up to 11pts each and they are getting furious charge? I pay 35pts for anything even close to this,(shining spears)

Shining Spears have afaik better armour, higher I and can fight with the same stats all game long. RR are so cheap because they're an extremely fragile one-shot glasscannon. They also do not go up in points - they're 11 with lances right now but lose the PW characteristic. Or they are 8 points without powerweapons (not that aynone ever takes these), then they go up. Not both at the same time.

souljaking09
21-03-2009, 23:47
You didn't mean to say sycophantic fanboidom by chance, did you? Because it appears to me that as soon as someone points out a flaw or weakness or aspects he doesn't like, he is accused of nerd rage, or whin(g)ing, moaning and bitching, and it is suggested he sells his models, plays a different race or commits suicide.

I really do not know where you take the legitimation and chuzpe from to throw out random personal offences while expecting all others to present neatly arranged arguments.



That's a lot of incredibility, so I'm not sure how much of that I should believe. :)

Yes, of course they want to sell the skimmers, and that's fine with me. In the case of the Vendetta, it also relegates at least three other units (Vanquisher, AT-SS, LC-Sentinels) to second division. Why ever use any of these AT options when they're all worse for one reason or the other? I'm sorry but I really think it is a sign of a good codex when most units are equally useful.



Rough Riders will lose against MEQ's and hordes. Don't deceive yourself. Sentinels are indeed a bit better now, credit where credit is due. They aren't even a mediocre CC unit though, AV 12 notwithstanding. I3, A1 will see to that. Conscirpts may be a nice tarpit with a commissar but if, as you assert, our firepower is so good, what do we need a tarpit for? They won't kill anything in CC that the same amount in point spent on guns wouldn't kill anyways.

"It's always been this way" simply isn't an argument, especially not when everything changes. Is it the nature of Orks to be good shots? If not, then why are they?



Why not? Didn't I make myself perfectly clear or are you simply ignoring certain POV's?



Explain that. I do not understand why anyone would love that. You'll have three open-topped, mainly AV10 squadrons (=targets) that are impossible to hide and will be able to shoot at three targets a turn, which is pretty much the definition of overkill, and cost 1125 points to boot (which may or may not be an issue).

I have no problem pointing out stuff that could be problems. But previous posts have just flat out said the codex sucks. I think it is impossible to judge until we see all of it's capabilities. Such as ogryns. How do you know, they will not have better weapons or upgrades. Same with storm troopers and rough riders. How can one possibly know how effective something will be if they have never even attempted those tactics in battle. All I am asking for is for the entire forums' hopes not to be crushed by haters.

I really do think any extreme opinions are premature. Including positive ones. Think about how many points you save with the regular guardsmen. Use those for ogryns or whatever other excellent options you consider too expensive.

djinn8
21-03-2009, 23:51
I really don't think that Rough Riders are as bad as a lot of people are thinking. I'm going to remove valks from the equation since they are both expensive -wise and bulky to transport, making them a little unavailable for a lot of people, which leaves HH and RR. A ten man squad of RR and a HH are comparable in points, and while admitadly the HH is the more powerful option, it can't preform the role that the RR can provide - getting extra bodies to hotspots on the board and tying up units in CC. While RR might not be as survivable as conscripts (???mathhammer needed???) or the more expensive option of ogryns, they're a damn sight more mobile than either. Remember we have Kamhir as an upgrade for a little extra punch as well - not sure on his points however, may be a luxuary?

ED: Forgot about Sentinals :(

ED2: *face palm* seems this post is irrelevent as RR have PW after all.

Lame Duck
22-03-2009, 00:15
State your oppinions - with short explanations.

1. Ogryns Suck ?

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?

3. Rough Riders Suck ?

4. Everything is to expensive ?

1. I won't be taking them. They are overcosted and basically a tarpit unit.

2. They havn't gone in the direction I would have liked them to, are no longer a viable troop choice and are also slightly overcosted. However, with their special rules I've come round to the idea of actually using them. Party due to fluff but also due to the possibility of pinning on the first turn.

3. They aren't overcosted, they are just no longer useful. ONE tepid charge backed up by hardly any staying power isn't going to get you anywhere.
I still might take a squad as a detterent (try making them look as intimidating as possible) then with any luck a dedicated cc squad will overkill my RR so I can open up with everything, and wipe them out, leaving my troops unharmed.

4. No, Boyz are undercosted.

Besides, I'm glad this codex is turning out more like SM and less like orks.

All I really wanted was to be able to field an elite infantry force, so I'm more than happy wth the vets anyway.

Aegius
22-03-2009, 00:22
Lots of goodies, eh? :)
Uh...T8, MC, S10 powerweapon makes Ogryns flinch. Not as much as a commissar but still. Wraithlords also have some nifty long-range guns, so the comparison is really skewed.

Uh not really, Wraithlords have 2 options, long range overpriced tank killers, or close range 3A cc monsters. These can only cause 1 wound on an ogryn, even though they are S10. At last, the guard have a unit that can keep WRAITHLORDS AT BAY! ask any army if they would like that and I can assure you that they are going to be jealous of 40pt wraithlord/avatar speedbumps.




The reason I've bought these things up are that these are Eldar specialities. Why do you think that guard should be good at the same thing as Eldar, who are an elite army?




ST's cannot infiltrate either. They also cannot be fortuned, or guided, and their target cannot be doomed. I don't think these comparisons lead anywhere; they're completely different.

ummm, so, instead of comparing it to something that is an equal number of points, (such as I have) you've added a 100pt+HQ model to the unit and for the record, guide does nothing for banshees and, well, yes, doom is really good, but we are talking about a CC unit. Your guys kill marines at up to 24" range, I've GOT TO buy a waveserpent (at 100pts, which is added to the 100pts for the doomseer.) to do the same thing as your stormtroopers. While we are adding things that make my squad better, why don't we just add Jain Zarr for another 190pts. That is 390pts to make 10 of my banshees better than 10 of your stormtroopers. You may go OMGXORYOUCANTKEEPADDINGHQSTOYOURELDARSXOR, but I wasn't the one that started adding force multipliers to the example squads.




Move-and-fire weapons!

This made me LOL! In 5th edition, you need units to hold your home objective, static gunline squads are awesome at this. Let me just say that guard are better at this than guardians, due to their low points cost. If you want then you can go on the offensive with grenade launchers, plasma guns and flamers. All of this coupled with a basic weapon that fires 24" as opposed to the guardians 12". These factors give you much better tactical flexibility. You get a guardian defender + storm guardian squad all together for less points. poor you!




Shining Spears have afaik better armour, higher I and can fight with the same stats all game long.

Better armour: check 3+ save or 3+ cover save if they turbo boost
higher initiative: check, but this is ignored as soon as their target is in cover
same stats all game long: NO! shining spears get s6 pw attacks ON THE CHARGE. in other rounds of cc, they count as having s3 normal attacks.

They pay THIRTY FIVE POINTS for this. I can't believe that you think an 11pt unit that does a VERY SIMILAR THING is being nerfed. If you were paying 2-3 times as many points, I would probably agree to you. But I'm afraid I can't with the points being what they are.

For the record, many Eldar players do not feel that shining spears are worth their points, so don't field them. An acceptable points value for such a unit would be 25-30 points, but that aint happening any time soon. I just can't feel for rough riders at all.

vman
22-03-2009, 00:27
yeh a few things *might* suck, but in place of those few things i get some extra nice things

3 x Basilisk
3 x Leman Russ
3 x Hellhound
3 x Sentinal

chuck in that a couple of valks, a bucket load of troops, some chimaeras and thats alot of template weapon blastyness

i think the new dex is awesome

4th ed my stratergy was hiding with basilisk and mortar teams to harass the enemy... now in 5th ed, i can bring so much firepower that given i deployed lots and got first turn, i have the potential to do massive damage from a big distance

Treadhead_1st
22-03-2009, 00:27
I'm intrigued. Can you elucidate a little on where those savings come from and how they add up?

Oops, it's not 217, it's 176, I dropped a Sentinel that I currently run (taking me to over 200pts). It kinda helps my force is the "standard Guard force" ie lots of Infantry and a few Tanks for support.

Basically, my army is (you'll be shocked at how bad it is on-paper but it does quite well for itself, even in tournaments. I can't understand it either, I'm not even a great player)...

CHQ(master vox and some meltaguns - Full Vox Network throughout army.)
2x Mortar Squads

Hardened Vets with 3xMelta and Frags [sometimes run a Hellhound instead of these guys]

2x Platoons of 2x GL squads, GL & Medic in Command
1x Platoon of ACs, AC & Medic in command

Lascannon Sentinel

2x Russ

That's 1500 points for 102 Infantry and 3 Vehicles/92 Infantry and 4 Vehicles (depending on Veterans or Hellhound chosen).

I get an extra (sticking with the Veterans):

5pts for Company Commander, 20pts per Mortar Squad, 15pts on the Veterans (loose Infiltrate though), 13pts per Infantry squad in 2 Platoons (squad price down to 50 and Grenade Launchers down to 5) 15pts in the other Platoon (squad price down and AC down to 10), Platoon Commands down to 30 base.

Russes are up 5pts each (base more expensive, Lascannon same, Stubber cheaper, Smokes free)

=179 points free (it's late so my math might be a little off, but I think it looks about right). Naturally all depends on how many of the rumoured poinst costs/unit upgrades are correct, but it's a rough figure to go by. Now - my army isn't a very competative Guard one, I'm sure you can see that, but it's fun to play and I like it. And it's getting cheaper enough to field that Vanquisher I want, and the other gubbins I've rabbited on about elsewhere.

I do not know how much the Medics are going to increase by (I imagine a fair bit if the Platoon Merger is true), nor how much Officer Weapons are (each Lieutenant has a Storm Bolter and the CO has a Power Sword) - I might get some extra points if the Officers can take Shotguns/some sort of Assault-based weapon (but not Storm Bolters, I have a feeling those might go walkabout).

Basically, I'm looking at taking a Vanquisher and a Hydra (have to slim a little to fit both, dropping the LC Sentinel will help) or some extra Infantry (whichever I feel in the mood for protecting my armour's flanks with - 2xTL/4x Hydra Autocannon should make approaching the tanks painful at best). May get even more points if the Vox network is cheaper/Master Vox decreasese a little. In which case I might be looking towards Special Weapon Squads to back up the 2 Platoons, as they need some Flamer-units to clear objectives of the enemy.

I'm pondering whether a minimal-sized unit of Ogryn might be helpful for protecting the Tanks (in place of the Hydra naturally). They're quite tough, and slightly cheaper than a Hellhound, and should be able to hold most assaulters up long enough for the tanks to get into a good enfilading position on the would-be attackers. And helpful for pushing the tanks out of ditches after the battle ;)

decker_cky
22-03-2009, 00:30
If lances remain as power weapons then wow...

They were already a bargain in the last book, then they add grenades (removing their greatest weakness) and give them extra attacks in subsequent rounds, then let them take assault weapons? Looks like I'll be using 2-3 units in most lists.

They're really handy in kill points missions as they tend to finish units off in a single round. I basically consider them +1 KP. Sometimes they come in from reserve early and get shot up, and sometimes they'll flub an attack (WS3 makes them prone to that), but in general they're awesome.

Raxmei
22-03-2009, 00:36
Against Ogryn a Wraithlord will inflict instant death with no save on a roll to wound of 2+. An Ogryn will wound a Wraithlord on a 6+ and allow a 3+ armor save.

The eldar jetbike is a far more useful platform than a horse. It moves 12", can always move 6" in the assault phase, gives T4 and 3+ armor and whatever. The horse gives fleet and a 12" charge range. The hunting lance can only be used once per game. Shining spears get their bonus any time they charge and has better S and I than the hunting lance. If rough riders get to keep their power weapons they're probably still better within their army than shining spears are in theirs.

MrBims
22-03-2009, 00:38
Uh not really, Wraithlords have 2 options, long range overpriced tank killers, or close range 3A cc monsters. These can only cause 1 wound on an ogryn, even though they are S10. At last, the guard have a unit that can keep WRAITHLORDS AT BAY! ask any army if they would like that and I can assure you that they are going to be jealous of 40pt wraithlord/avatar speedbumps.

Someone failed mathematics, and majored in hyperbole. 10 is 5 multiplied by 2; since Ogryns are T5, one Ogryn will die for every wound caused. 2 attacks base, +1 on the charge, with a Wraithsword for rerolls, means that 2.25 attacks will hit, and 1.8675 wounds will be caused. That is an average of 2 Ogryns dead on the charge. The Ogryns will then get their 13 retaliatory attacks, with 6.5 hits and 1 wound on the Wraithlord. The Wraithlord can shake it off with 3+ save.

For combat resolution, the Wraithlord causes 6 wounds (2 x 3), the Ogryns do .33. The Ogryns are going to be making a morale check, and even with Stubborn, they're going to run on almost half the morale checks they make. But then, this is probably a good thing, because only a complete ***** would put Ogryns in cc with a Wraithlord.

Bunnahabhain
22-03-2009, 00:38
Uh not really, Wraithlords have 2 options, long range overpriced tank killers, or close range 3A cc monsters. These can only cause 1 wound on an ogryn, even though they are S10. At last, the guard have a unit that can keep WRAITHLORDS AT BAY! ask any army if they would like that and I can assure you that they are going to be jealous of 40pt wraithlord/avatar speedbumps.
.

Eh??
Ogryns don't have eternal warrior ( eternally hungry mayby....) or any other way of ignoring ID. At T5, any S10, like that wraithlord, will ID one no problem.

We've never had a problem keeping wraithlords at bay. Massed special and heavy weapons fire....

Aegius
22-03-2009, 00:44
Someone failed mathematics, and majored in hyperbole. 10 is 5 multiplied by 2; since Ogryns are T5, one Ogryn will die for every wound caused. 2 attacks base, +1 on the charge, with a Wraithsword for rerolls, means that 2.25 attacks will hit, and 1.8675 wounds will be caused. That is an average of 2 Ogryns dead on the charge. The Ogryns will then get their 13 retaliatory attacks, with 6.5 hits and 1 wound on the Wraithlord. The Wraithlord can shake it off with 3+ save.

For combat resolution, the Wraithlord causes 6 wounds (2 x 3), the Ogryns do .33. The Ogryns are going to be making a morale check, and even with Stubborn, they're going to run on almost half the morale checks they make. But then, this is probably a good thing, because only a complete ***** would put Ogryns in cc with a Wraithlord.


Eh??
Ogryns don't have eternal warrior ( eternally hungry mayby....) or any other way of ignoring ID. At T5, any S10, like that wraithlord, will ID one no problem.

We've never had a problem keeping wraithlords at bay. Massed special and heavy weapons fire....

oops! on this, I do lose the internets, but the rest of my points do still remain. I'm trying to compare the guard to another army that isn't just marines and show where it is stronger than the aggrieved may feel that they are. I do apologise for my shoddy mathmanship here, I'm just trying to stretch brains in a different direction.

As for the poster that pointed out the shining spears plus points. I'm well aware of them, I love shining spears, but if I was paying 20pts less than I am for them, then I wouldn't be complaining about them losing power weapon status.

Marneus Calgar
22-03-2009, 00:55
As for the poster that pointed out the shining spears plus points. I'm well aware of them, I love shining spears, but if I was paying 20pts less than I am for them, then I wouldn't be complaining about them losing power weapon status.

Who would complain about them losing their power weapon status if they dropped 20 points? You are essentially paying 15 points for a T4, I5, LD9, 3+ Armor which can be converted to a 3+ cover save if need be. This model also rides on a bike which can *always* move 6 inches in the assault phase. When Shining Spears charge they are Str6. The correct comparison would be Shining Spears staying at 35 points and they lose their power weapon status when they charge? I really see no comparison to a model which rides on a horse, has a 5+ armor save, has lower LD, and is Str5 on a charge (is it still once per game?). :eyebrows:

Aegius
22-03-2009, 01:08
Who would complain about them losing their power weapon status if they dropped 20 points? You are essentially paying 15 points for a T4, I5, LD9, 3+ Armor which can be converted to a 3+ cover save if need be. This model also rides on a bike which can *always* move 6 inches in the assault phase. When Shining Spears charge they are Str6. The correct comparison would be Shining Spears staying at 35 points and they lose their power weapon status when they charge? I really see no comparison to a model which rides on a horse, has a 5+ armor save, has lower LD, and is Str5 on a charge (is it still once per game?). :eyebrows:

ok, lets change 'dropped 20 pts' to 'dropped 15 pts' I use this as a points value as assault marines, who have similar stats are 18 pts each.

and

I can't remember the last time I moved 6" in the assault phase with this assault unit when I wasn't charging, so this is just a leftover from guardian jetbikes.

and

I5 in an assault unit is great, as long as it isn't going to die as soon as it charges something in cover.(dangerous terrain test + striking last in combat due to lack of grenades.) Lets face it, most of the units that are going to be charged are going to be in cover, so the I5 thing is really not relevant.

and

I can't take special weapons, except for on the exarch, but that will cost me a minimum of 27 pts for 1 model in my 5 man unit and its only a shuriken cannon.

I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between the 2 units. Moreso to point out that for the points, rough riders are actually really quite good.

Marneus Calgar
22-03-2009, 02:34
ok, lets change 'dropped 20 pts' to 'dropped 15 pts' I use this as a points value as assault marines, who have similar stats are 18 pts each.

and

I can't remember the last time I moved 6" in the assault phase with this assault unit when I wasn't charging, so this is just a leftover from guardian jetbikes.

and

I5 in an assault unit is great, as long as it isn't going to die as soon as it charges something in cover.(dangerous terrain test + striking last in combat due to lack of grenades.) Lets face it, most of the units that are going to be charged are going to be in cover, so the I5 thing is really not relevant.

and

I can't take special weapons, except for on the exarch, but that will cost me a minimum of 27 pts for 1 model in my 5 man unit and its only a shuriken cannon.

I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between the 2 units. Moreso to point out that for the points, rough riders are actually really quite good.

True, Shining Spears have the option to turbo boost, giving them a cover save, so the movement in assault is not as a big deal. Here is the kicker, Rough Riders are not dropping in points, yet apparently they are still losing their power weapon charge. That is the true argument.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-03-2009, 09:49
How do you know, they will not have better weapons or upgrades.


Someone would have reported that by now I presume. People are looking at the codex when answering questions at this time. I readily admit that sometimes some things get messed up and vanish in nothing but hot air (like the excitement over RR) but 99 % of what we hear at this stage appears to be the real thing. I'm sorry if I appeared to overreact.



Same with storm troopers and rough riders. How can one possibly know how effective something will be if they have never even attempted those tactics in battle.


Because we're in the game for years. It doesn't take extensive field studies to find out what charging with an extra attack or a power weapon or whatnot will achieve, and the same goes for other aspects, even though the workings of the whole codex must be tested on the table top.



I really do think any extreme opinions are premature. Including positive ones. Think about how many points you save with the regular guardsmen.

I am 26 points over in my current list...of course I'm going back to square one and start working on a new one but using it as a benchmark, I don't see much room for anything else! ;)



Neither CC not firepower are an Eldar specialty. Mobility, to some extent, is. See, we now get a weaker Seer Council, and we get fast skimmers. Guard will already be as good if not better than Eldar at certain things.

Anyways, I agree with the general sentiment that the big brutes have been discussed sufficiently. More power to everyone who can make them work in his metagame.


yeh a few things *might* suck, but in place of those few things i get some extra nice things

3 x Basilisk
3 x Leman Russ
3 x Hellhound
3 x Sentinal

chuck in that a couple of valks, a bucket load of troops, some chimaeras and thats alot of template weapon blastyness


The above is already some 1,300 points. A couple of Valkyries is another 300-400, some Chimeras 100-200, then add in a HQ (~100 points). In what kind of normal 40k game do you get "a bucketload of troops" on top of that?

Awilla the Hun
22-03-2009, 10:20
Still, at least we have:

Cheaper Chimeras
Cheaper Infantry
More mobile tanks

I think I'll start a "Mounted Rifles" Army: three big loads of rough riders, lots of tank mounted squads, all heavy weapons being towed by horses. It's not all doom and gloom. Well, not quite.

Plastic Parody
22-03-2009, 11:08
There is a huge amount of negative sentiment floating about for what amount to the Elite choices in the army. As an infantry horde Guard player I feel like I have escaped it! This dex looks awesome and I cant wait for it to come out. The points reduction, orders and improved tanks will make the mainstay of the army much more viable now. To throw in my 2cents on the Elite Choices:

Ogryns. Didnt use them much as they were usually ID'd by hidden powerfists or rokkits etc. The T5 makes them somewhat more viable now IMHO but they are expensive, suppose some games will tell if they are worth it.

Storm Troopers. I always used around 2 10 man squads to provide a little more staying power than my regular bunch. The price hike has put paid to that SO, it seems this mantle will now go to veterans who can get the SV4+, BS4, can get 3 special weapons and are troops for the loss if infiltrate or DS and the hell gun. All in all an improvement for me and I can use the same models I suppose.

On another note I can see some potential for the Storm Troopers to get rid of Crisis suits, Aspect warriors and obviously marines. Its just ashame they are so overpriced against hordes; so I wouldnt expect to see them in a tournament.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-03-2009, 11:48
Oops, it's not 217, it's 176,

That's still quite cool, thanks a lot for elucidating! :)


Still, at least we have:

Cheaper Chimeras
Cheaper Infantry
More mobile tanks


Oh yes, and that is something I'm perfectly happy with. I'm sure people will come up with excellent ideas for a few powerful builds based on this soon.

laudarkul
22-03-2009, 13:15
Still, at least we have:
Cheaper Chimeras
Cheaper Infantry
More mobile tanks

Defintely so...Now I have the reason to buy more Chimera's and to finish my SL models as a Mechanized infantry supported by Sentinels and some light tanks.

Johnnyfrej
22-03-2009, 14:45
Explain that. I do not understand why anyone would love that. You'll have three open-topped, mainly AV10 squadrons (=targets) that are impossible to hide and will be able to shoot at three targets a turn, which is pretty much the definition of overkill, and cost 1125 points to boot (which may or may not be an issue).
Umm I think I pretty much said why I (and therefore someone), would love to field 9 Basilisks. But since it seemed you were only focusing on what I said that you don't personally agree with, I'll rewrite my explainion, yes?

Like I said before, it's the potential to field 9 Basilisks that entices me. Would I actually use 9 in a real game? Possibly, probably if it was just a fun game to waste time and have fun. If you want to be that guy who waits for someone to have an idea just to say how much you dislike it, that is fine. You are entitled to your own opinions, Plexus. Would your opinions stop me from fielding a 3 Basilisk, 3 Manticore, 3 Colossus army? Definatly not.

bc99
22-03-2009, 17:20
Wow I'm surprised at the negativity on this thread. Wait, no, let me rephrase. I understand people's concerns for a hobby and their favorite army. We all want to be competitive, we all want that balanced and fair codex that allows us options.

Well, I'm not sure I understand the gripe about Ogryns and, to a lesser extent, Rough Riders. I understand all of the complaints and concerns being brought up, I just don't know why it's even a concern. In the dozens of armies I've played, and the scores of lists I've read online, Ogryns and RRs were never , EVER, an intrinsic part of what made the army work. In fact, I rarely if ever even see those models on the table (and they're great imho).

So now we're complaining about them?

Again I understand the frustration that those who actually use and incorporate the models are experiencing. It just seems people are complaining about things that never were that big of a factor in the first place. Most armies have been static gun line, tank swarm, or drop troops.

I'm more interested in the options that the new codex opens up. Maybe I'll get to take and use a priest, or psychers, or commissars. There's options for new HQ models (ordnance master, etc) new tanks, new flying thingies! Oh my.

Anyway, I also love the IG. They're my favorite army, the nameless ground pounder and simple tech (lasgun) and all that. I'm ready for the new codex...

Bloodknight
22-03-2009, 18:01
In the dozens of armies I've played, and the scores of lists I've read online, Ogryns and RRs were never , EVER, an intrinsic part of what made the army work. In fact, I rarely if ever even see those models on the table (and they're great imho).

So now we're complaining about them?

Ogryns cost a lot of money and have been crap ruleswise for 10 years (actually even longer. Their history is one of being overpriced, sometimes performing mediocrily, mostly badly. In 2nd edition they were expensive, crappy in CC, but decent shooting units. In 3rd edition rulebook list, they were expensive, crappy in combat and overpriced. In 3rd edition codex 1 they were uber-expensive, crappy CC units that usually didn't feature shooting at all because people switched their ripper guns for additional CCW so they would be able to do something. In 3rd edition codex 2 they were cheaper, had mediocre shooting, good assault capabilities, but were not tough enough to make use of the CC stuff. And the new codex makes them uberpricy again), that's why you don't see them on the table, and if you do, they're unlikely to do something worthwhile.

The new codex would have had a chance of changing that, but that ball was dropped, they're still crap.
They got a bit better on the defense (T5), slightly worse on the offense (due to the 60% point increase - you get 10 old Ogryns for 6 new, ie more attacks), but not good enough to warrant that increase. Point for point they still lose vs most assault troops even if they get the charge (I did some math proving that they could actually pull off victories vs Khorne Berzerkers if they charge, but that was based on 35 pt models with a 115 starting cost. By now, it's been made clear that they are 130+40, and at that point, they aren't good enough anymore pt for pt and struggle vs Space Marines...). Also, they were seemingly supposed to be better tarpits now because they lose combat by fewer points on average than before, but this bonus was eaten up by a severe drop in LD. As soon as they lose (not unlikely), they are 40:60 to run. When the Bonehead is dead, this changes to 60:40, not exactly a reliable tarpit unit.

Rough Riders used to be one of the best assault units in the game, even as one-shotters. The new ones could still be, but that depends on which rumour is true: power weapons or not. If not, they suck. They lose against MEqs that way, and most non-MEqs that you want to have or need assault units against use assault troops that strike at least simultaneously to the RRs. The perceived buff for them for later rounds is there, but only if there are second rounds to be had. Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Genestealers, Wyches, even Dark Eldar Warriors etc. will just kill the RRs, and these are the guys you'd want to use RRs against. Running over a few Eldar Guardians won't do much, and they lack the number of attacks to put a dent into slower assault units like Kroot or Orks because these come in huge mobs and will strike back with a ridiculous number of attacks after removing casualties.



1. Ogryns Suck ?

See above.

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?

Possibly. They are IMHO far too situational for an all-comers-list. Unlike the Space Marine Sternguard that makes the army around them suffer if they are taken in greater numbers due to their pricing, Stormtroopers are also only good vs one type of opponent.

3. Rough Riders Suck ?

See above. It depends. Power weapons: good. No power weapons: pretty useless.

4. Everything is to expensive ?

Depends.
Guardsmen look good depending on how the order system pans out, ie if that is a force multiplier as good as the Eldar psychic powers.
Veterans seem to be too expensive with upgrades.
Elites choices don't look good except for the reasonably priced Ratlings.
FA: generally looks good although the Hellhound got a price hike and a nerf at the same time.
HS: some good buys and a lot of crap, IMO. I wonder what made them price some of the tanks the way they did...

electricblooz
22-03-2009, 18:26
As with other experienced IG players, I'm fairly disappointed with the treatment of Ogryns, ST's, and Rough Riders; however, that's mostly because the original rumors for these units had me thinking that they might justify using my Blood Axe Orks as "counts as." Now it sounds like if I do such, it'll just be for the coolness factor and not because running such units are a good idea.

The being said, the more rumors I hear the more I find myself thinking that GW has simply given up on making the IG a competitive 40k army and has willingly and knowingly shifted the IG to the purview of Apoc.

First, most of the most outstanding costing errors appear to be mitigated in the Apoc setting where points are less important. Second, the strength of this codex appears when using mass amounts (which doesn't work in 40k but obviously works in Apoc). Finally, the codex practically begs the player to follow the Apoc. squadron concept of force multipliers.

For instance, many players have been drooling over merged platoons with Medics and Commisars, etc. Obviously scuh units are pretty easy to deal with in a regular 40k game (because they represent an "eggs-in-one-basket strategy). The same unit piling out of a Gorgon or Stormlord(?) would be fairly useful...

Kurisu313
22-03-2009, 18:47
I have read the new 'dex!

I saw only a few things - limited time and all, but...

Rough Rider Lances ARE power weapons on the charge!

Let the good times roll! As a guard player with 10k points, I am now a very happy camper! :D

Hi_ex_lover
22-03-2009, 19:32
I have read the new 'dex!

I saw only a few things - limited time and all, but...

Rough Rider Lances ARE power weapons on the charge!



They'd darn well better be...

Lord Cook
22-03-2009, 20:13
1. Ogryns?

Speaking to people on the Who Loves Orks? thread, they are convinced that Ogryns are worth it at 40 points. Personally I think that's their perspective. Ogryns would be worth it in an Ork list where they are close to Warboss stats for less points. They aren't worth it in a Guard list where we can achieve the same things far more cheaply by just shooting the target unit to pieces.

I think Ogryns are genuinely a good combat unit, even at 40 points. But they have no synergy with the Guard list as a whole. Cheaper, weaker Ogryns wouldn't be a problem because they would act in a support role, but because these Ogryns cost so much we're forced to revolve our entire strategy around them, and that doesn't work.


2. Storm Troopers?

I agree. MEQ armies genuinely are starting to be less overwhelming in the overall metagame, especially with the release of Orks, and potentially Guard depending on how popular we end up being. If the rumour that they carry "hot-shot lasguns" is true then they might be able to benefit from the "Fire by ranks!" order, but even then, it smacks of a unit that will only ever be potentially worth it if you play a against an army with 3+ saves. Given that I don't tailor lists for each and every opponent, this makes them useless because they are too expensive to be wasted against a non-MEQ opponent. With meltaguns they might function as a mediocre anti-tank unit with Outflank, but that's dubious.


3. Rough Riders?

Several sources who claim to have seen the book say they still have power weapons, although I also heard that they've lost the +2 initiative bonus, which would make them just as useless. At this stage I've heard so many conflicting claims, I really need to wait and see for myself.

Having said that, if they still have hunting lances that grant +2S, +2I and power weapons, the fact that they've been given laspistol and ccw on top of that is a nice bonus, as you retain the 2 attacks into further rounds. Also, it seems as though you can add special weapons as well as hunting lances. Personally I'll probably stay specialised with all lances, but for those who fancied replacing one with something like a flamer, it's a nice option.


the Hellhound got a price hike and a nerf at the same time.

We don't know that yet. We haven't heard how the inferno cannon fires. If it's the same as now, then yes the hellhound has been quite severely nerfed. However if it fires as the Apoc ranged flamers do, just placing the narrow end within 12" and then placing the larger end anywhere further away than that, then that gives you almost the same range as before, except now it's on a Fast vehicle that can move 12" and still shoot.


I wonder what made them price some of the tanks the way they did...

The Leman Russ seems fine. I reckon the Vanquisher is a little too much considering the loss of HE shells, but on the whole there are enough vehicles about to make it viable, if hardly very competitive. The Eradicator seems rather good, and the Exterminator, while less so, does seem to make a nice light vehicle hunter. Executioner was always going to be costed to Timbuktu and back, but frankly I'd pay 210 points for one with three heavy bolters. I couldn't fit it in less than a 2k points game, but I still think it's worth it.

The only real disaster is the Punisher. But I'm looking at it with Knight Commander Pask and shooting at monstrous creatures. I'm not going to argue that it doesn't suck against anything else, whether it be infantry or tanks. But if Pask provides +1Bs and a re-roll to wound versus MCs, then for 250 points you get a tank that will kill an elite (T6 3+sv) carnifex or a daemon prince with one round of shooting. Compare that to the cost of 10 lascannon shots for killing the carnifex, assuming it lacks cover, or 14 lascannon shots for the daemon prince, again without a cover save.

As I see it, Pask is pretty much mandatory with the Punisher. The two of them combined have an extremely niche role. One that certainly isn't suitable for a take-all-comers army. But within the role of killing T5/6, 3+ armour monstrous creatures, it's definately worth it. Nidzilla anyone?

Imperius
22-03-2009, 20:15
1 Yes, they are too expensive money- and point-wise.

2 Yes, the Guard should not have Space Marines in it.

3 No, these guys are balanced but still strong.

4 Alot of it, but generally no. The Guard isn't usualyl a solid elite army, usually you see tanks and Guardsmen.

decker_cky
22-03-2009, 20:34
If rough riders get power weapons, +2 ST, +2 I and grenades for the basic 11 pts, these will be the first, second and third choice for a guard assault unit. Add in laspistol and close combat weapon and the ability to take flamers, and they'll be one of the most power units in the army. Grenades on them is the huge boost though.

Then you have to consider the orders. There's 2 special characters with orders that allow furious charge. If rough riders can use those orders....amazing. S6 I6 on that first charge. Then they can potentially outflank with captain al'rahem.

PapaDoc
22-03-2009, 21:14
What gaves me difficulties when playing against guards is many squads with many heavy and weapons and the rockhard vechicles.

What happens after I my berserkers charge out of their landraider? Well sure they eat up 10 guardsmen for lunch. But after that they are greated by 10-15 autocannons in the face and Khorne gets very upset.

Based on the rumours this type of thing will get cheaper and I don't like it.

What really makes me cry is the heavy support squad with 3 autocannons for like 75 points.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
22-03-2009, 21:30
But after that they are greated by 10-15 autocannons in the face and Khorne gets very upset.

Khorne dont care if they die, as long as blood will flow.

Sorry to upset you pal :(

back to the thread: guardsman look solid. if rr have pw, they might be quite good. ogryns sucks. stormtroopers seems to suck. it will be ok IMO.

decker_cky
22-03-2009, 21:33
What happens after I my berserkers charge out of their landraider? Well sure they eat up 10 guardsmen for lunch. But after that they are greated by 10-15 autocannons in the face and Khorne gets very upset.

Why would khorne be upset? Khorne isn't picky with which side spills the blood, so if his berzerkers die, it's just more blood for the blood god.

And yea...guard will be able to fit more shooting in the army, but I think most will agree that they need that. And you'll be able to shoot those heavy weapons teams and autokill them with S6+, so they don't get cheaper autocannons for free.

PapaDoc
22-03-2009, 21:49
Why would khorne be upset? Khorne isn't picky with which side spills the blood, so if his berzerkers die, it's just more blood for the blood god.

And yea...guard will be able to fit more shooting in the army, but I think most will agree that they need that. And you'll be able to shoot those heavy weapons teams and autokill them with S6+, so they don't get cheaper autocannons for free.

I know they will not be the end of the world. Still I run a transport heavy army and these guys combined with the autocannons in regular squads can give rhinos serious trouble.

I posted what I did because there is a strong THEY CHANGED IT SO IT SUCKS vibe in this topic.

By the way, if you like the rules for the current stormtroopers so much just hire in some from the inquisition. Problem solved.

decker_cky
22-03-2009, 22:02
People are more disappointed that flavour units were screwed up rather than the army overall being bad. It sounds like an improvement.

As a chaos player, it's analogous to your codex being really strong, but players wanting to use spawn and possessed getting really inefficient choices. Stormtroopers really gets some people because they previously had them as the bulk of their armies (though the comparable grenadier veteranns choice covers those players to an extent).

PapaDoc
22-03-2009, 22:36
Well if you want the flavour units then play bigger games.

At 2000 points you can have a unit of five possessed and some spawn without reducing the effectivness of your army. All armies (except Orks) have some units that suck big balls.

Does you have enough units to deal with different threats like horde and tanks? Do you have a way to deliver the pain to the enemy?

For me these ratios reach critical mass at around 1750 points. Then I got 250 points left for the ballsuckers.

Everything is going to be allright!!

IAMNOTHERE
22-03-2009, 22:37
As a player whose based his AdMeh themed Guard list around Ogryns, RR and Stormtroops, I await the new dex with baited breath.

Either way my list probably wont change much but I do expect it to play differently.

Killgore
22-03-2009, 22:47
State your oppinions - with short explanations.

1. Ogryns Suck ?

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?

3. Rough Riders Suck ?

4. Everything is to expensive ?

1. what a load of rubbish, Ogryns have always been an aquired taste, most of the people that bitch about them have never bought a Ogryn in their life

2. I fully intend on using a unit of Stormies, simplie for the fact they seem so cool and the ap3 helguns will really put the creeps into my foes

3. Cant comment, I only own 1 converted Cadian RR :P

4. all a matter of opinion, i intend to take all the cool stuff, like advisors, psyker squad, a few priests, basicaly everything with all the weird and wonderful expensive stuff that a WAAC gamer would never use


imho people that play for fun get more enjoyment from this hobby, so who cares if on paper some units look 'rubbish' if you like to use them go for it

Bloodknight
22-03-2009, 22:49
Personally I think that's their perspective. Ogryns would be worth it in an Ork list where they are close to Warboss stats for less points.

I agree. In a list where everybody runs forward and there's some shooting to back them up, they'd be a good choice for their cost. They'd probably also be able to slap a power klaw on the Bonehead, and they'd have a bosspole ;) LD7 is quite a drawback for a tarpit unit.
Lack of synergy in a Guard army is a good description.


Having said that, if they still have hunting lances that grant +2S, +2I and power weapons, the fact that they've been given laspistol and ccw on top of that is a nice bonus, as you retain the 2 attacks into further rounds. Also, it seems as though you can add special weapons as well as hunting lances. Personally I'll probably stay specialised with all lances, but for those who fancied replacing one with something like a flamer, it's a nice option.

I agree on this. If they retain their lances as they are now, there's absolutely no problem with that unit, and the inclusion of grenades and a CCW will make them an even better choice than before. That they can take special weapons in addition to their lances will be another bonus. I'd probably go for 1-2 meltaguns, ie run something over and then blast a tank or so because even with added CCWs I wouldn't trust a guard unit to win combat on their basic stats or hold ;). Flamers don't look like a good choice to me because RRs are there to hunt armoured stuff, and flamer range is shorter than their assault range.




1. what a load of rubbish, Ogryns have always been an aquired taste, most of the people that bitch about them have never bought a Ogryn in their life

Depends. This book could have been the chance to make them more than an "acquired taste". After all, GW would probably want to sell those expensive guys...but they somehow fail every time at making them more "mainstream" by giving them appealing stats. Personally, I own two squads of six that I have used in 5th edition to more or less good effect even with the current codex....avoiding enemy troops like the plague if possible, and bashing their tanks to death. Of course, this setup used to cost me 265 points per full Chimera (6 Ogryns including Bonehead with Medallion Crimson in Chimera with extra armour) => 530 points, and will now cost at least 620. I don't know if it will be worth it, and I wish they had given us the option for a power weapon on the bonehead...

decker_cky
22-03-2009, 22:55
Krak grenades make them pretty good against most vehicles.

Meltas would be fine as special weapon choices too, but flamers are better against all infantry except terminators, even outside cover. You won't always use them, but when you do, it'll be much more useful. Just because you have a 12" charge doesn't mean that your 6" move won't often take them within 7-8" of their opponents. And on the first charge, you want to hit something hard, but the flamers mean they can effectively deal with hordes during later charges.

captainramoz
22-03-2009, 23:39
The guarsdman point drop to fifty points per squad is mathematics(if points were even lesser for a guard then we would need more than 200 models to make a decent points worth army)

Gulbech
22-03-2009, 23:48
I have the Codex and Rough riders still have power weapons attack on the charge!!!

It is a false rumour they dont have that ability anymore. so still I 5, S 5 and power weapon on the charge. 10 point each

Raxmei
22-03-2009, 23:51
I have the Codex and Rough riders still have power weapons attack on the charge!!!

It is a false rumour they dont have that ability anymore. so still I 5, S 5 and power weapon on the charge. 10 point eachReally ten? That'd be a slight points drop when you factor in the lance.

Gulbech
22-03-2009, 23:59
Actually its 55 for 5 with sergent, and then 10 for additional ones. And they can now take different weapons like melta and flamers.

They also comes with Frag AND krak grenades. They are pretty good now.

decker_cky
23-03-2009, 00:11
They are pretty good know.

Understated much? They were pretty good before. Now they sound like an absolute steal.

noobzilla
23-03-2009, 00:12
I might be just too much of a Guard fanboy, but I absolutely LOVE the new way the Guard are going in this edition!

:D

Marshal Sinclair
23-03-2009, 00:16
Might be time to invest in some Death Riders then.

chinnfrequent
23-03-2009, 00:19
I am really looking forward to the potential havoc a squad of psykers zipping around in a chimera can cause with their leadership dropping power. Making squads run off the table first turn, prevent a unit from ever reaching your line or forcing them to run off an objective just sounds awesome.

Bloodknight
23-03-2009, 00:22
Understated much? They were pretty good before. Now they sound like an absolute steal.

Correct. The power weapon thing turns them from a very mediocre unit to a must-buy; after all they are a good unit in the current codex and get good stuff thrown in (frags! kraks, 2nd ccw) and a price drop of 6 points in the initial squad (5 guys plus sergeant upgrade for 55 instead of 61).

Ravenheart
23-03-2009, 00:26
If they only were a troops choice I'd build myself a cavalery army.

Still; a great choice. I'll definitly have quite some in my army.

Raxmei
23-03-2009, 00:27
I am really looking forward to the potential havoc a squad of psykers zipping around in a chimera can cause with their leadership dropping power. Making squads run off the table first turn, prevent a unit from ever reaching your line or forcing them to run off an objective just sounds awesome.
It does look promising, depending on exact rules and points costs. It's a great big wait and see for me.

Heh, if you really wanted to you could get 13 S9 large blast attacks in a single army. Three Basilisk squadrons, master of ordnance, and three full psyker squads. That adds up to around 1500 points and you certainly won't see me doing it, but wow.

souljaking09
23-03-2009, 00:34
I have the Codex and Rough riders still have power weapons attack on the charge!!!

It is a false rumour they dont have that ability anymore. so still I 5, S 5 and power weapon on the charge. 10 point each

Yeah, knock the hater rumours outta here man! what about ogryns. could you tell me all the differences from the last codex. and storm troopers. i want to know the truth.

Gulbech
23-03-2009, 01:02
The rumors about Ogryns and ST are true, they cost 40 and 16 point each.

Dont think there is much to add there.

Treadhead_1st
23-03-2009, 01:08
I just wrote a massive post on the B&C - folks over there are getting rather irate about the Guard having a unit that can deny saves, no matter the cost of the models. But it did get me thinking a little, and I've made some points about the strengths the Storm Troopers bring, and why most people are probably not going to take them:


I'm also a Guard player (Salamanders too, so I'm not just going to rag on Marine players in this post).

Hellguns have always been described as punching through armour. I like to view the Str3 as this kind of trade off: the Hellgun is very focused for blasting through armour. As such, it's shots are more needle-like than the bullet-like holes of a normal Lasgun (or rents of a bolter). So it easily goes through the armour a man is wearing but might miss him/anything vital entirely. In the Cain novels, when some Necron appear the normal Guardsmen are whupped badly. The Hellguns are the only things that can put them down (and keep them down).

To the comment that "but they should have less range, or greater AP (like AP4/5) - I'd take AP4/5 if Lascannons go down to AP-. By this theory, at 48" they should have no ability to penetrate armour at all - but I bet you (complaining Marine players) wouldn't like the nerf to anti-Monstrous Creature firepower. Marines are to Guard what Monstrous Creatures are to Marines (in terms of not a lot of guns that can put them down, and certainly not before they get into combat and all but sealing the fate of the game). The Hellguns give us a way to deal with the Marines in sufficient numbers (if you play right you can probably get 2 firing phases, but that means luring Marines into the 13-18" band in their turn, rather hard to do) so *potentially* kill a Squad, but it comes at such a cost the Guard player is missing out on something vital to another role (such as a Hellhound to deal with the high-numbers of Orks, etc).

At 16pts a pop I had ruled them out. Now I've realised I will have 190 points, I'm torn between 2 combinations: a Hydra and a Veteran Unit (who now loose Infiltrate) or two Storm Trooper units (one backing up Platoons, the other some Russes). Especially after reading this thread (I think they'll be handy for protecting the AV10 rears, and 72" battlecannons sort out the rediculous 18" range thing) - the guns struggle to hurt your Marines, and come on a platform that costs the same amount yet is significantly worse in almost every stat. Also, many complained (in exactly the same vein) about Vespids, but now they are reviled as one of the poorer choices in the Tau book.

What they are good for though is adding in a unit that is effective against both Marines and light-Monstrous Creatures. This is vital to players who don't want to take Tanks/overload on Plasma-spam. Also, though the Hellgun may ignore your armour (OMG we don't get saves against hellguns but you do against bolters!) every other model in the Guard army doesn't get a save against bolters, or virtually any other weapon (except Shotguns and Sniper Rifles assuming failed Rending roll). That bit about people not liking tanks is vital - some don't (a barmy few IMO as I'm a Treadhead) don't, and it's nice to see them get a (disputedly) viable counter to Marines without having to find a way to get in some Pie-Plates or Plasmaguns (allowing their Infantry Squads to target light infantry, things their Lasguns are OK at killing, such as Eldar or Gaunts).

What I think is going to be "nastiest" about this is using the ST to give a Platoon some teeth. My army has 2 Platoons of 25 men advancing on the enemy (they're armed with GLs). Whilst the GL can wound T6 Carnifex' and Marines with ease, nothing denies a save meaning most of my firepower is shrugged off. Add in a couple of Storm Troopers (6-8 seems optimal due to cost) packing a couple of Meltas, and I can finish off that Carnifex or Tactical Squad. I don't see how spending nearly 600 points to kill a 170point Tactical Squad or Carnifex is overpowered in the least.

Another small squad behind my russes to ward off Assault Marines and I'm set, I think (but Veterans will be better at taking out Monsters/Tanks and a Hydra provides an...amusing...way of keeping Infantry away from the back of your tanks). Also, since the Hellguns now allow the basic Troopers to do something (when previously STs were just Plasma/Melta delivery), things like Flamers might now be taken (since the Flamers make up for lost anti-Horde and the Hellguns still bring the pain against harder units, bringing more variety and tactical flexibility into the army. It also doesn't help that for their points they will be competing with other shock units such as Special Weapon Squads and Rough Riders - units with more options and tactical usage which might mean they get left by the wayside (60pt 6-man unit with Flamers/Demo Charge or 116pt 6-Storm Trooper unit with 2-Melta for charging objective? Hmm...I'll take 2 60pt teams please!)

The amount of variety in the IG list may kill off the Storm Troopers, thanks mostly due to their high cost (same problem with Ogryn). A lot of competition for points means that the more exotic units may not get to see much table-time, as they're "too niche" for most players.


Now that Rough Riders are confirmed to have Power Weapon Lances, I think my choices (mentioned above) have become harder. A unit of 5 for 55 is a steal, and very useful for protecting the rear armour of your tanks (with 2x Russ and a Vanquisher I can't afford another Platoon to guard them, on top of the 3 I already have) - things like Terminators and Assault Marines are going to rue getting close to them.

Perhaps that's a good combo - small RR units to protect Tanks, and Storm Trooper units to give our Platoons that little extra punch (they can hurt Elite-level Carnifexes too!). It means we can keep general costs down and spread the hurt out amongst our whole forces. If the enemy gets close they face RR charges and AP3 firepower, if they stay at range they face "First Rank...Second Rank" orders making thier life harder, and allowing the IG player the freedom to maneuver and dictate the pace of the game.

But choices are a good thing. Having to think "Do I want a Hydra or some Storm Troopers or some Rough Riders to protect my armour from Infantry?" is a good thing - each has it's upsides and downsides and not taking one, or the others, can potentially hamstring your army (it's not like of the 3 all are bad choices). It's the same for our line troops now - "Do I want upgraded Veterans for some sneaky Melta/Plasma work, or the already-expenisve Storm Troopers who are slightly more survivable but with a teency bit less firepower?", more so than in the current codex (where the ONLY real factor is how useful you feel Carapace will be, and whether to trade the extra Special for that option).

But mind you, Marine-level points is a little absurd to me, so I might not take them despite my above ponderings.

Many apologies for the long post, I hope it's brought some opinions and ideas to the thread.

fluffstalker
23-03-2009, 01:59
16 point stormies... wow. Where are those points coming from? Not JUST the ap 3? If it was 4th ed sure, but with so many cover saves, they're really not worth that much right now.

Owatanka
23-03-2009, 02:05
What is the required base size for rough riders? I have to convert them. They are quite a powerful unit in the new codex.

tuebor
23-03-2009, 02:07
What is the required base size for rough riders? I have to convert them. They are quite a powerful unit in the new codex.

My Attilan Rough Riders came with Fantasy-type cavalry bases.

decker_cky
23-03-2009, 02:16
Rough riders are on fantasy cavalry bases.

edit: Ninja'd

TheOverlord
23-03-2009, 03:15
If the rumor about the rapid fire weapons being able to fire an extra shot with the "first rank fire, second rank" order, that 16 points might be worth it.

chinnfrequent
23-03-2009, 03:17
If the rumor about the rapid fire weapons being able to fire an extra shot with the "first rank fire, second rank" order, that 16 points might be worth it.

That depends on whether 'all lasguns fire an extra shot' applies to their hot shot lasguns. If it does they're deadlier than thousand sons.

TheOverlord
23-03-2009, 07:14
Well the rumor mentions all rapid fire weapons, although I think it's mroe likely to be lasguns only, although not sure if hellguns might apply.

Not much more deadlier than Tsons, I think, but Tsons do pay through the nose for it.

Lord Cook
23-03-2009, 07:43
Well the rumor mentions all rapid fire weapons

It's been clarified to be lasguns only. Depending on the wording, hot-shot lasguns may or may not work.

Akuma
23-03-2009, 07:46
"That depends on whether 'all lasguns fire an extra shot' applies to their hot shot lasguns. If it does they're deadlier than thousand sons."

I think it's Las Gun only :)

Raxmei
23-03-2009, 07:59
Bladestorming Stormtroopers actually wouldn't be any killier than the same number of Thousand Sons within 12". Two shots wounding on a 4+ inflicts the same number of wounds as three shots wounding on 5+. Yes, I am aware that the two are completely different units in completely different armies with different points costs.

Bladestorm should push them ahead of Fire Dragons. Fire Dragons get one shot wounding on 2+. Two shots wounding on 5+ inflicts slightly fewer wounds than that and three shots would inflict slightly more. This is against a MEQ target; against T3 the comparison favors Stormtroopers even without bladestorm.

TheOverlord
23-03-2009, 09:00
Thats a damn shame, 16 points seem just a little over the tip on points cost, with the orders it could've been a really attractive unit.

Poseidal
23-03-2009, 09:37
Rough riders seem cool. Shining Spears for 1/3 of the cost. Combined with 'anvils' of Ogryns could be useful. Shame the bretonian peasants have one-piece torsos making my feudal world guard a bit tougher.

Solar_Eclipse
23-03-2009, 09:40
Rough riders seem cool. Shining Spears for 1/3 of the cost. Combined with 'anvils' of Ogryns could be useful. Shame the bretonian peasants have one-piece torsos making my feudal world guard a bit tougher.

...

Why dont you just use knights?

Lord Solar Plexus
23-03-2009, 09:50
Umm I think I pretty much said why I (and therefore someone), would love to field 9 Basilisks.


No, you said that you like the possibility, not why. Don't get me wrong, it's completely cool if you simply feel that way because of looks. I never meant to tell you what you could do or not and apologize for coming across as needlessly argumentative. No hostility intended!


Well if you want the flavour units then play bigger games.


I'm a dad. I have a full-time job. I have two cats. Many of my friends are dads, have cats, or a full-time job, or any combination thereof.

We cannot simply play anywhere, anytime, as long as we like. :cries:

Poseidal
23-03-2009, 09:54
...

Why dont you just use knights?

Sorry, I wasn't really clear on the issue here.

Knights are fine for Rough Riders.

But I need the peasants for my regular regiments and conscripts.

Solar_Eclipse
23-03-2009, 10:01
Sorry, I wasn't really clear on the issue here.

Knights are fine for Rough Riders.

But I need the peasants for my regular regiments and conscripts.

Using the Peasant bodies and heads with Cadian Lasguns actually work out really well.

Poseidal
23-03-2009, 10:09
Are the arms attached to the peasant bodies? I heard they were which could be a problem requiring a lot of cutting?

Khornies & milk
23-03-2009, 10:17
State your oppinions - with short explanations.

1. Ogryns Suck ?

well I won't be using them now because of the points cost.

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?

I've been using them in my Armoured Battlegroup list, so I'm happy to do the same in my new IG list regardless of the extra cost.

3. Rough Riders Suck ?

Well with the PW issue now been sorted I would use them but only when the new plastics come out, because I don't like the current models.

4. Everything is to expensive ?

I'm happy that I'll be able to field a mainstream IG list so could care less really. I have pretty much all the models I require, minus the Valkyries and the new Tanks (Russes and Hellhound varients). Seen as my group usually plays 2250+ I'll have plenty of room for some of the 'fun' stuff:D

Hakkapelli
23-03-2009, 10:30
Could someone who have looked through the codex please confirm wether heavy platoons have been removed from the codex. I know that inf platoons can now take heavy weapon squads but I'd still like to be able to field the pure heavy platoon for fluff reasons. And is it true that the Vanquisher is now only a extreamly long range meltagun :cries:.

Likes the artillery chap. Being able to call in artillery from off table is much better then having it on table and the rough riders will see even more use now then they did in the old codex. The orders system sounds awesome and fluffy. Right now it seems that 40k is the game that gets well made and fluffy rules while WHFB gets quick and easy changes with half assed fluff justifications.

decker_cky
23-03-2009, 13:59
Just attached heavy weapons, but each infantry platoon can take 5 heavy weapon squads, which is a heavy weapon platoon right there.

Kalec
23-03-2009, 14:03
And is it true that the Vanquisher is now only a extreamly long range meltagun :cries:.


Cheer up, that isn't true at all! A meltagun has AP1, the vanquisher cannon only has AP2.

Owatanka
23-03-2009, 14:06
Could someone who have looked through the codex please confirm wether heavy platoons have been removed from the codex. I know that inf platoons can now take heavy weapon squads but I'd still like to be able to field the pure heavy platoon for fluff reasons. And is it true that the Vanquisher is now only a extreamly long range meltagun :cries:.

Likes the artillery chap. Being able to call in artillery from off table is much better then having it on table and the rough riders will see even more use now then they did in the old codex. The orders system sounds awesome and fluffy. Right now it seems that 40k is the game that gets well made and fluffy rules while WHFB gets quick and easy changes with half assed fluff justifications.

That makes no sense at all. You can take heavy weapon teams in your troops section (not that you should want to, they give up a lot of killpoints and are outclassed by vendettas). They are just like the old teams, differing only in the FOC and being cheaper.

tuebor
23-03-2009, 14:10
That makes no sense at all. You can take heavy weapon teams in your troops section (not that you should want to, they give up a lot of killpoints and are outclassed by vendettas). They are just like the old teams, differing only in the FOC and being cheaper.

The only HW teams I'm taking are mortars. They're going to be rather cheap and if I can keep them hidden away they shouldn't die all that much.

Raverrn
23-03-2009, 15:16
One very important question remains:

Can you put Rough Riders into Valkyries?

I'm not getting my hopes up, but it sounds like the type of thing GW would overlook.

Poseidal
23-03-2009, 15:25
If they are beast or cavalry units then no, as per the main rulebook.

decker_cky
23-03-2009, 15:29
One very important question remains:

Can you put Rough Riders into Valkyries?

I'm not getting my hopes up, but it sounds like the type of thing GW would overlook.

Don't have my rulebook here, but can cavalry even use transports? My instincts say it could be an infantry only thing.

CKO
23-03-2009, 15:46
Think of elites this way you have to pay taxes with them. They may be worth a certain amount but because of how different/unique they are you pay more. This applies to all codexes so yes the stormtrooper actually may be worth 13/14 points but because of their unique abilities you pay 2 more points. You may not like it or disagree with it but it is just a fact. So get over the point cost and accept the facts and start the learning curve for our brand new codex.

Crp.Zoega
23-03-2009, 15:53
Think of elites this way you have to pay taxes with them. They may be worth a certain amount but because of how different/unique they are you pay more. This applies to all codexes so yes the stormtrooper actually may be worth 13/14 points but because of their unique abilities you pay 2 more points. You may not like it or disagree with it but it is just a fact. So get over the point cost and accept the facts and start the learning curve for our brand new codex.

QFT!

In my current armylist the only things that kill meqs are plasmas, meltas etc.
With the new codex I will be able to use Epic deploying elites that have ap3.
And now for point cost justification, In a normal army I use two regular plutooons.
Pricedrop for them all=100 points. In my old list I included 10 stormtroopers i.e 100 points aprox. 100+100 is 200 and even with specials and sargestuff the new stormies are about 200 pts. Voila! Same stuff, same points, huge increase in killyness!

Viva ze new STs!

Crp.Zoega

Owatanka
23-03-2009, 16:00
Think of elites this way you have to pay taxes with them. They may be worth a certain amount but because of how different/unique they are you pay more. This applies to all codexes so yes the stormtrooper actually may be worth 13/14 points but because of their unique abilities you pay 2 more points. You may not like it or disagree with it but it is just a fact. So get over the point cost and accept the facts and start the learning curve for our brand new codex.

Yes but when you balance in that way people will just take the more efficient option, they will take only infantry squads. It is flawed game design. People aren't going to take a good unit and a bad unit, they will instead take two of the good unit and never use the bad unit.

HraTaika
23-03-2009, 16:22
I'm pretty much in love with the new codex.

Have never played guard in my life, but the idea of a fast, mechanized
recon army sounds quite good, specially with a number of sentinels now
that they have a little bit more options.

Then again, the reason why I'll be starting the IG will be the Valkyrie, it
looks cool, has wonderful stats and weaponry, and most importantly, the
whole idea just ******** ROCKS! A number of veterans with a good mix
of melta's and plasma's, in addition to 4-5 valkyries/vendettas in 1000pts
looks soo juicy!


So whine all you like dammit, I'm sold with the new codex! Muahahaa!

Lord Solar Plexus
23-03-2009, 16:24
The only HW teams I'm taking are mortars. They're going to be rather cheap and if I can keep them hidden away they shouldn't die all that much.

Why not go the whole hog and take Griffons? They're apparently not much more expensive but putting out stronger and larger blasts. I'm thinking of taking one squadron of two.

LordofWar1986
23-03-2009, 16:35
1. I have never used Ogryns in my IG before, but it seems despite the point hike they are going to be nice to use. I think having 3W's+T5+FNP(>)1W+T4+AS:2+3++ SM termie, but we will see.
2. Stormtroopers are meh...I guess...dunno yet about them until the book is actually in my hands. I will probably be using plasma/melta to fill their role.
3. Roughriders not having a PW lance would certainly be a swift kick in the horse's AND the riders nuts.

PapaDoc
23-03-2009, 18:32
We cannot simply play anywhere, anytime, as long as we like. :cries:

Well dad :D what I meant was that at smaller games Warhammer 40 000 becomes increasingly rock, paper & scissors.

If you wish to remain somewhat competative (not Ard Boyz competative. Just enough so you can play the next guy at the store/ club with only the stuff you brought and have a reasonable chance of winning) then there won't be room much flavour in games below 1750.

Guard are not the only army this applies to.

If you like playing smaller games with friends you can just agree on beforehand that you are going to take more flavoured lists and everybody will be happy.

Lord Cook
23-03-2009, 18:42
Why not go the whole hog and take Griffons?

Because mortar heavy weapon teams are Scoring?


3W's+T5+FNP

Ogryns do not have FNP.

SPYDER68
23-03-2009, 20:11
I saw the new Hardened veteran squads and i am now very happy, they are better then old stormtrooper squads with everything except ap5 lasguns and targeters, which is.. oh wel.. when you can have 3x special weapons.. heavy weapon and a plasma pistol.

now i just gota pick wasy to model carapice armor now.

For one after seeing this... i am very happy since this is how i wanted my army to be.

Lord Cook
23-03-2009, 20:15
they are better then old stormtrooper squads with everything except ap5 lasguns and targeters

Well, getting both frag and krak grenades is a lot better than defensive grenades y'know...

SPYDER68
23-03-2009, 20:27
Im willing to have that trade off thou.

i dont see myself charging anything with my plasma gun squads..

70 pt for 10 guys..
30 pts for 3x plasma..

100 pt squad for BS4 3x plasma guns makes me happy

then 30 pts for the upgrade choice...

Currently.. Hardened vets.. 133 pts for 3x special weapons ? i think..

with infiltrate only.. and not scoring.

Lame Duck
23-03-2009, 20:54
Im willing to have that trade off thou.

i dont see myself charging anything with my plasma gun squads..

70 pt for 10 guys..
30 pts for 3x plasma..

100 pt squad for BS4 3x plasma guns makes me happy

then 30 pts for the upgrade choice...

Currently.. Hardened vets.. 133 pts for 3x special weapons ? i think..

with infiltrate only.. and not scoring.

But they are scoring.

SPYDER68
23-03-2009, 20:58
But they are scoring.

Current ones aren't scoring.. new ones will be.

between hardened vets at least..

who cares about the new ST's now with this squad :P

Lame Duck
23-03-2009, 21:00
Oh, misunderstood you.

Vaktathi
23-03-2009, 21:10
I saw the new Hardened veteran squads and i am now very happy, they are better then old stormtrooper squads with everything except ap5 lasguns and targeters, which is.. oh wel.. when you can have 3x special weapons.. heavy weapon and a plasma pistol. Huh? They are identical in every way except cost 1pt more, don't have targeters, Krak Grenades (a big one with the new vehicle assault rules), lose AP5 (lol), and can take an additional special weapon.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-03-2009, 21:10
...Ogryns...FNP

Not.


Well dad :D what I meant was that at smaller games Warhammer 40 000 becomes increasingly rock, paper & scissors.


Hey Papa! :) You will find me completely in agreeance. I find it incredibly hard to build a solid take-all-comers list under the aegis of the new 'dex. Something, be it AT, AI, AMC, ARM, CAV, scoring units, mobility always seems to be missing. And here I was expecting to free up enough points with a price drop to shoehorn another squad and some goodies in. Darn.

Now of course I could jump on the bandwagon and do what every good company wants - buy their stuff in the form of vendettas and valks, and perhaps one day I will but simply with the collection at hand...especially since, I'm sorry to have to use the term, heavy weapon squads have been hit so hard with the nerf stick. Mutants aside, this multiwounder thingie is what irks me most. They give up easy KP, have even less stamina as before (who'd thought that would've been possible?!?), cannot take voxes...it's unbelievable.


Because mortar heavy weapon teams are Scoring?


No, definitively not. I mean, yes, they are scoring but that wouldn't be a good enough reason to take them. I believe that the Griffons are that much better, offensively speaking to more than make up for it. A multiple ordnance barrage? Yes please!



70 pt for 10 guys..
30 pts for 3x plasma..

100 pt squad for BS4 3x plasma guns makes me happy

then 30 pts for the upgrade choice...

Currently.. Hardened vets.. 133 pts for 3x special weapons ? i think..


Current H-Vets (10, 3 PG, infiltrate) are 115, future will be 145* + scoring. Dunno, what are you going to leave out of your list to include them? Surely not a scoring unit?

*Fixed an error.

Aegius
23-03-2009, 22:50
Rough riders seem cool. Shining Spears for 1/3 of the cost. Combined with 'anvils' of Ogryns could be useful. Shame the bretonian peasants have one-piece torsos making my feudal world guard a bit tougher.

BETTER than shining spears in my opinion. They can actually charge into cover! Shining spears are purely situational. These guys have waaaaaaaay more options.

Akuma
23-03-2009, 22:52
"BETTER than shining spears in my opinion. They can actually charge into cover! Shining spears are purely situational. These guys have waaaaaaaay more options."

Like Flamers and meltas :D ?

Maine
23-03-2009, 23:00
Then again, the reason why I'll be starting the IG will be the Valkyrie, it
looks cool, has wonderful stats and weaponry, and most importantly, the
whole idea just ******** ROCKS! A number of veterans with a good mix
of melta's and plasma's, in addition to 4-5 valkyries/vendettas in 1000pts
looks soo juicy!

Before you get too excited and go pre-ordering a bunch, the "1-3 Valkyries/Vendettas" Fast Attack slot are a squadron, which means they must maintain coherency and shoot at the same targets.

Lord Cook
24-03-2009, 00:58
heavy weapon squads have been hit so hard with the nerf stick

I understand your concerns about the heavy weapons teams, but have you also considered that they will get hit significantly less by blast weapons? A frag missile can only score about two hits now (assuming you didn't deploy in a triangle) as opposed to more like three or four before. If you get shot at with something S6+, you can go to ground for a 3+ cover save (you would of course have them in cover already). Besides, how often do you seriously face war walker squadrons or masses of assault cannons, especially after the latter was made so much more expensive?

Now I agree it isn't ideal but we also got a price cut on everything, particularly autocannons and mortars, and they were already worth the old cost. I don't think it's worth as much angst as you seem to think.


I find it incredibly hard to build a solid take-all-comers list under the aegis of the new 'dex.

I must say I'm finding it easier. With cost reductions and/or improvements on our core units, there's a lot more room for maneuver. I also think the discount on chimeras is very significant, as that goes a long way towards giving us that desperately needed mobility. Speaking purely for my own armies, shifting heavy weapon teams into troops also gave me a lot more scoring units for holding my home objectives.

See what you think of this. I've not included any vox yet because I don't know how much it will cost for the network, or how useful it will be. Same thing with standard bearers.

50 - Company Commander
10 - 4 Guard w/ 2xFlamers

30 - Platoon Commander
10 - 4 Guard w/ 2xFlamers
60 - 10 Guard w/ Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun
60 - 10 Guard w/ Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun
60 - 10 Guard w/ Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun
75 - 3 Heavy Weapons Teams w/ 3xAutocannons
105 - 3 Heavy Weapons Teams w/ 3xLascannons

80 - Overseer w/ 6 Sanctioned Psykers

85 - 8 Rough Riders w/ Veteran Sergeant

130 - 10 Veterans w/ 3xPlasma guns
55 - Chimera w/ Multilaser, Heavy flamer

115 - 10 Veterans w/ 3xMeltaguns
55 - Chimera w/ Heavy flamer, Heavy bolter

170 - Leman Russ w/ 3xHeavy bolters

170 - Leman Russ w/ 3xHeavy bolters

160 - Manticore w/ Heavy bolter
_____
1480


Eight scoring units, five pie plates a turn, plenty of flamers and meltas at close range and enough troops and tanks for durability. Biggest weakness I would say would be monstrous creatures. Reasonably competitive while still keeping in cool and characterful stuff.

Treadhead_1st
24-03-2009, 01:35
This is what my army will be looking like...well, when I can find a combination of units I like for 200pts (I want some Storm Troopers to back up my Platoon but they are very, very expensive which means I can't have anything supporting the Tanks):

note: I've left Vox and Medic costs as they are now, I know medics are going up but hope Voxes go down, in Commands at least.

50 - Company Commander (Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon)
45 - 4 men w/ 2x Meltagun, Vox

30 - Platoon Commander
26 - 4 men w/ Autocannon, Vox, Medic
65 - 10 Men w/ Autocannon, Vox
60 - 10 Men w/Autocannon, Vox
60 - Mortar Squad
60 - Mortar Squad

30 - Platoon Commander
26 - 4 men w/ 2x Grenade Launcher, Vox & Medic
60 - 10 men w/ Grenade Launcher, Vox
60 - 10 men w/ Grenade Launcher, Vox

30 - Platoon Commander
26 - 4 men w/ 2x Grenade Launcher, Vox & Medic
60 - 10 men w/ Grenade Launcher, Vox
60 - 10 men w/ Grenade Launcher, Vox

175 - Leman Russ w/ Lascannon & Pintle
175 - Leman Russ w/ Lascannon & Pintle
165 - Vanquisher w/ Heavy Bolter & Pintle

1268

That's without the cost of Medics, wargear for the Officers and so on (theoretically 1303 with current costs for Vox and Medics and some wargear like Storm Bolters and Power Weapons). Gives me a nice firebase, maneuvering element and some tank power. Plus 11 Scoring Units (5 on home objective, 6 going after enemy ones).

So roughly 200 points to spend all-told (though likely less if I still take Medics when the points increase...which I'm no longer sure about, at 30pts a pop for FNP on 5 T3, 5+ guys - a FNP which I'm guessing goes when the Medic is killed, all to easy to do without a large unit to screen him). Might just add one into the CHQ and leave the Platoons without (so should be roughly the same cost as now).

What I take next depends on the Officer options (probably will be taking Power Fists instead of Storm Bolters on the Platoon Commanders), the actual costings of the various support units and so on. If I really cannot shoe-horn in the Storm Troopers (180pts a unit :O) then I'll be looking into Veterans (3x Melta, Power Fist and Vox for "Bring It Down!" fun) depending on what the "upgrades" actually fully offer.

I'm not too worried about the new weakness of my Mortar Squads (being 3x 2W models). They're only 60pts and put out a heck of a lot of firepower, safely hidden behind friendly units or out of LOS. If the enemy sends some Outflankers after them...I'm loosing 120pts, and most Outflank units cost at least that. A fair trade for a turn or three (since they won't be near the board edges) of bombarding the enemy with 6 blast markers a turn. The more "valuable" weapons, such as my Autocannons for targetting Transports and my Lascannons are on more durable platforms (10-man squads and AV14 tanks), making them harder to eliminate before their target role is achieved.

I really think that it is evident the weakness of our army is points limits! 1500 barely gets you an Infantry/Tank force that can soak up a bit of damage - I only have room for 1 "fun" option with what I have left (I'd want some Light Tanks too, but there is no way I can get them in there along with some extra muscle for the Platoons, and perhaps Advisors for a bit of a "grimmdark" feel etc). 1750pt games, or 2,000+ are where our power is really going to lie in future, as it means we can take well over 100 Guardsmen and 5 Battle Tanks and still have room for things like Ogryn, Storm Troopers, Valkyrie Wings, Psyker Mobs and Assassin support etc etc

Serg. Lynchbox
24-03-2009, 03:04
Isn't troop choice going to be a lot cheaper? So you make the points up by that. I would say it still turns out to be equally balanced anyways. Although I rather have more guardsmen then some special Units like Storm troopers and rough riders.

bremmer925
24-03-2009, 05:28
Not alot cheaper, just marginally so. And the prices of almost everything else went up.

souljaking09
24-03-2009, 05:47
QFT!

In my current armylist the only things that kill meqs are plasmas, meltas etc.
With the new codex I will be able to use Epic deploying elites that have ap3.
And now for point cost justification, In a normal army I use two regular plutooons.
Pricedrop for them all=100 points. In my old list I included 10 stormtroopers i.e 100 points aprox. 100+100 is 200 and even with specials and sargestuff the new stormies are about 200 pts. Voila! Same stuff, same points, huge increase in killyness!

Viva ze new STs!

Crp.Zoega

alright, I love stormtroopers just like you, but why did you add another 100 points. I guess I don't understand your calculations. stormtroopers would be 166 for a squad of 10 plus your special weapons.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-03-2009, 07:48
I understand your concerns about the heavy weapons teams, but have you also considered that they will get hit significantly less by blast weapons?


No, actually I had not! :) I tend to face assault cannon or scatter laser or that warp spider thingie more often than frag or plasma missiles.



See what you think of this.


The basic structure is sound, and ironically comes very close to what I was pondering. Especially the psykers sound like a fun unit to use. Have you considered seating them in an APC as well for some added protection?

I see a problem with your long-range AT. Perhaps it doesn't matter in your metagame but a single ATSS could easily see all your lascannon go down in one fell swoop. I personally prefer to put them into as many places as possible, so I field LC+HB Russes. With lumbering behemoth, it will be possible to shoot a battle- and a lascannon at armour.

I have also considered infiltrate for any Vets I use. Outflanking them in a vehicle could mean some nifty objective grabbers. Of course it's a bit random so I understand that it isn't for everyone. They'd the be prime contenders for voxes IMO.

With regard to MC's, it might just be enough to order your men to take them down. Perhaps.


This is what my army will be looking like...

Wow. You guys apparently don't face many tanks, do you? In the past, I've usually included at least 5-6 lascannon at 1,500, and barely scraped by. Since the heavy Fexes, Broadsides, Termis, and Land Raiders won't go away simply because LSP gets a new codex, I'm not sure any less will be a good idea.

Don't you think swapping a few GL's for other specials would be a good idea?


Isn't troop choice going to be a lot cheaper? So you make the points up by that. I would say it still turns out to be equally balanced anyways.

In many cases, it will of course be a wash, in others not so much. Line squads are going down by 5-10 points but tanks go up by 5-40.

Col.Gravis
24-03-2009, 11:48
As a 'standard' all comers tourny list I'm going from this,


DOCTURINES
Iron Discipline, Die-hards, Close Order Drill, Roughriders

HQ

Command Platoon
Junior Officer inc. Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Iron Discipline
Command Section inc. Veteran with Company Standard, Autocannon, Die-hards @76pts
Anti-Tank Squad inc. 3x Lascannon, Die-hards @115pts
Fire Support Squad inc. 3x Heavy Bolters, Die-hards @85pts
Fire Support Squad inc. 3x Heavy Bolters, Die-hards @85pts
Mortar Squad inc. Die-hards @85pts

TROOPS

Infantry Platoon
Junior Officer inc. Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Iron Discipline
Command Section inc. Autocannon, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @65pts
Infantry Squad inc. Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @100pts
Infantry Squad inc. Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @100pts
Infantry Squad inc. Grenade Launcher, Lascannon, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @98pts
Infantry Squad inc. Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @88pts

Infantry Platoon
Junior Officer inc. Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Iron Discipline
Command Section inc. 3x Grenade Launchers, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @74pts
Infantry Squad inc. Plasma Gun, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @75pts
Infantry Squad inc. Plasma Gun, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @75pts
Infantry Squad inc. Grenade Launcher, Die-hards, Close Order Drill @73pts

FAST ATTACK

Roughrider Squadon inc. Veteran Sergeant, 4 Roughriders, Hunting Lances, Laspistols, Die-hards @66pts

Roughrider Squadron inc. Veteran Sergeant, 4 Roughriders, Laspistol & Close Combat Weapons, Meltabombs, Die-hards @71pts

HEAVY SUPPORT

Leman Russ inc. Hull Heavy Bolter, Sponson Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber, Searchlight @168pts

1499pts

to this...


Company Commander @ ~80pts

Infantry Platoon
Company Commander (Autocannon?) @ ~60pts
Infantry Squad inc. Lascannon, Plasma Gun @ ~95pts
Infantry Squad inc. Lascannon, Plasma Gun @ ~95pts
Infantry Squad inc. Lascannon, Plasma Gun @ ~95pts

Lascannon Anti-Tank Squad @ ~105pts
Lascannon Anti-Tank Squad @ ~105pts
Heavy Bolter Fire Support Squad @ ~75pts

Infantry Platoon
Company Commander (Autocannon?) @ ~60pts
Infantry Squad inc. Grenade Launcher @ ~55pts
Infantry Squad inc. Grenade Launcher @ ~55pts
Infantry Squad inc. Grenade Launcher @ ~55pts

Roughrider Squadron inc. 5 Roughriders @ ~55pts

Hydra Flak Tank @ ~75pts

Leman Russ inc. 3x Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber @ ~180pts

Demolisher inc. 3x Heavy Bolters @ ~185pts

@ ~1430pts

I'm down on Infantry (though I've still a good few points to spend so I could reduce that difference), but have gained in firepower with an extra Leman Russ (Demolisher) and additional Anti-Tank with a second AT Squad.

Also I've switched a Heavy Bolter Squad for a Hydra, averages the same number of hits a turn (Lasgun's aside), but those hits are of greater strength and benefit from the Hydra's special rules - though of course it's not a scoring unit. Mobility wise I've still got a firebase Platoon and a mobile Platoon for taking objectives which served me fairly well.

Owatanka
24-03-2009, 12:56
HQ Command Squad
Platoon Command Squad
Platoon Command Squad
Two Merged Infantry Squads: 20 Guardsmen: Vox
Two Merged Infantry Squads: 20 Guardsmen: Vox
Three Merged Infantry Squads: 30 Guardsmen: Vox

Vendetta Squadron: 2 Vendettas, 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters
Vendetta Squadron: 2 Vendettas, 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters

Leman Russ Squadron: 2 Leman Russes: Battlecannon, 3 Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade
Leman Russ Squadron: 2 Leman Russes: Battlecannon, 3 Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade

85 infantry, 4 tanks, 4 skimmers

SPYDER68
24-03-2009, 13:34
Huh? They are identical in every way except cost 1pt more, don't have targeters, Krak Grenades (a big one with the new vehicle assault rules), lose AP5 (lol), and can take an additional special weapon.


Umm.. Current Rumors of 70 pts for 10 guys is the same cost not 1 pt more..
Then 30 pts for carapice armor = 100 pts

2x plasma guns = 20 pts..

120 pts.. 10 guys 4+ Save... 2x special weapons..

With room for another weapon...

Current St's 10x = 100 pts.. + 2x Plasma Guns = 20 pts.. = 120...


Pretty much the same...

the only thing you lose is AP5 for Scoring and better weapon options..

Targeters is meh.. who cares not much of a loss, if you cant tell if something is within 24" range then you need to start learning how far that is :P
Its more of a luxury of being lazy over a necessity.

... Krak Gernades is Crap for them

Ive used 30 ish Stormtroopers a game solid and never once found it even close to a benefit to charge something with them to use them..

btw i run them with plasma guns.. so rapid fire plasma.. or charge.. easy decision there.

SPYDER68
24-03-2009, 13:41
HQ Command Squad
Platoon Command Squad
Platoon Command Squad
Two Merged Infantry Squads: 20 Guardsmen: Vox
Two Merged Infantry Squads: 20 Guardsmen: Vox
Three Merged Infantry Squads: 30 Guardsmen: Vox

Vendetta Squadron: 2 Vendettas, 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters
Vendetta Squadron: 2 Vendettas, 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters

Leman Russ Squadron: 2 Leman Russes: Battlecannon, 3 Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade
Leman Russ Squadron: 2 Leman Russes: Battlecannon, 3 Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade

85 infantry, 4 tanks, 4 skimmers


Whats the point of taking all the russes in squads ? :P

You make them less effective and less survivable in squads..

3x Leman Russ's in single slots.. take the points from the 4th and put it into something else

2x squads of russes = 2 targets a turn, destroyed on a failed difficult terrain test or immobilized result..

3x Russes = 3 diff targets.. Lives throu immobilized.

This is more so ok for the Vendetta's due to they are most likely going to be tank hunting.. and are usually going to be destroyed on a immobilized anyway (unless im thinking of new skimmer rules wrong)

I would take 1 squads of 2x vendetta.. then 2 squads of 1.. take only 3 tanks.. and then put a squad in one of the vendetta's for a mobile scoring unit.. Like a Tri / quad plasma hardened vet squads with vox...

Owatanka
24-03-2009, 13:46
Yeah you're probably right about the Leman Russes. I could take 3 single Leman Russes and give them plasmacannon sponsons for 30 points less than the 2 tank squadrons I was using. I have to use at least one vendetta squadron though as I need at least 4 of them, because I am relying on them so much for anti-tank. If I only had three I don't think that would be enough.

SPYDER68
24-03-2009, 14:00
Yeah you're probably right about the Leman Russes. I could take 3 single Leman Russes and give them plasmacannon sponsons for 30 points less than the 2 tank squadrons I was using. I have to use at least one vendetta squadron though as I need at least 4 of them, because I am relying on them so much for anti-tank. If I only had three I don't think that would be enough.

You can have your 4x Vendetta's..

Squad 1. 2x Vendetta's

Then 2x Single slot Vendetta's and spread the anti tank around more even.

Crp.Zoega
24-03-2009, 16:39
Souljaking. The 100 points are from my old list where stormtroopers are 100 for 10 excluding sarge and weapons. The other 100 points are the savings of my plutoons, I was justifying my inclusion of the new STs to the naysayers.

Crp.Zoega

decker_cky
24-03-2009, 19:02
I don't like the comparisons "how many points is my old list?" I understand for those who have a limited collection and don't want to have to rebuy their lists for sure, but for people who just want to play the same army, you have to realise that it's a new list and things change.

HraTaika
25-03-2009, 13:15
Hmm..
don't know about you guys, but I've already decided the
core of my new IG army, wasn't too hard to build it up.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189992

Discussed with a local Ig player, he said he's list is quite
the same, but relatively cheaper as the infantry platoons
he has went down in price.

Lord Cook
25-03-2009, 13:26
I don't like the comparisons "how many points is my old list?" I understand for those who have a limited collection and don't want to have to rebuy their lists for sure, but for people who just want to play the same army, you have to realise that it's a new list and things change.

I agree. I scrapped all my old lists completely and built fresh new ones entirely for the new codex. They're similar of course, but it avoids getting too hung up with old prejudices.

Captain Micha
25-03-2009, 13:28
Scrapping my old lists and building back from the ground up.

There's a ton of new units in the codex so trying to retool an old list who's pts costs have changed dramatically is too difficult.

I'm debating between going Full Tread Head or going Air Cav right now. Tread Head would be abit cheaper... either way though at least I don't need any more infantry... (I bought the Infantry Company Apocalypse Splash)

It appears though that I'll be running a Veterans list either way though. I do like Bs4.... alot.

I ran a Tanith first and only style army (but didn't use the Tanith doctrine package just parts of it) and threw on some tanks.

Treadhead_1st
25-03-2009, 14:53
I'm not scrapping my force, but adapting it.

My current army was 1 platoon firebase, 2 platoons advancing, couple of tanks.

This (seems to be) the list the Codex was designed to help, all my points-costs have dropped and I've a lot of room to play with various stuff.

So, since I had a relatively "basic" force to begin with, nothing has actually got worse. I still don't take many Lascannons (prefering Autocannons and Vehicles), but have more Infantry/Meltaguns and better tanks as a part of the deal. Ie, my force is very simple so there's not a lot I *can* change about it.

What I AM looking forwards to is far more fun when I expand the force. With a basic 1500pt core of 100+ Infantry and 3 Battletanks, I can go to 2000 points by adding the "luxury" items such as Valkyries, Storm Troopers, Light Tank Squadrons, Ogryn, Mechanised Platoons the works (though naturally not all at the same time).

Mind you, my army has *always* been limited by the fluff. I field a Cadian force, so my Heavies are Autocannons and my Specials Grenade Launchers. All my force is from one single Company (so no Storm Troopers, Ratlings or Ogryn), obviously apart from the Armour, which is all from the same Armoured Company (so no Artillery). It's not necessarily an effective force (it tends to win through sheer weight of numbers/poor-quality fire) but it's thematicly done and I've worked on coverting it (so don't want to scrap certain models).

But I might, just *might* pull out my Blitzkrieg Armageddon Steel Legion force. I'm not sure I can afford it yet since I'll be starting University again this year, but cheaper troops + chimeras means I should have a lot of fun with that army too. Construct that one from the ground up, since there are far more "battle tanks" to support the army now.

SPYDER68
25-03-2009, 17:22
Ill scrap and do new lists from scratch when i have the codex in hand..

until then all i can do is compare for idea's from what works atm in my army.

Once the codex is released... i will have everything i can have except the Valk's which ill buy on release day if not sold out around here.

Till then.. compare away.

I still dunno what a vox caster even costs in units to know if i want them..

Blinder
25-03-2009, 19:27
Old list = scrapped because I ran a couple armored fist squads and the "sentinals attached to platoons" rumors seem to have died out so I dunno if I can still do 3x individual sentinals + a hellhound... have to decide on if I want to slap a platoon command on the AF's for a mech platoon or slap some extra weapons in them for transported vets, and the FA slots just turned into FFA slots- soo many tasty options to put in those 3 little buckets! (a pity roughriders weren't slipped over into the "elites" section, while I like ratlings I don't ever expect to field 30 of them as it sounds like you might be able to do. Well, maybe if I can get ahold of enough of the current models once I see the new codex for myself...).

Right now (RR's still have +2/+2 PW on first charge seeming "confirmed") my only complaint is no carapace for them... apart from model re-use (gogo fantasy knights!) I really did find the 4+ save useful for surviving attacks-back. Frags are a nice add (kraks not so much, since they'd be unusable until the second charge on account of the lance), but I still have this nagging feeling I'd trade them for the 4+ in case they bounce off on the charge (gogo 1's to wound! aww... crap). On the other hand, 4+ isn't *too* hard to get from *most* of the enemy force on the approach, and not having to give up the extra attack to have the lance in the first place means if there is a second round/charge you get the same number of attacks from half the survivors...

All in all, I like what I see, though I *still* see no way I can justify buying Ogryns (I've wanted 'em for a while, but I'd want to be able to field at least 3x6 and that's an even more insane number of points than it ever was regardless of the game size, and at roughly $20 a pop 7 ogryns gets me 4 squads, or even food for most of the month ^^ ). I can see some uses for them, but at 130+40 (or even 115+40) not enough for people to use them if they're not already in the collection.

ST's... on the fence. 16 points is pretty costly and they're very MEQ-oriented (granted there's a lot of that running around these days), but there's a lot of interop (I've sat through too many corporate meetings to use the 'S' word) potential that I really think will take a bunch of "reports from the front" to really draw a conclusion... valks + storms might work well enough in practice to justify what looks to be an overcost on paper (though it'd be unfortunate if it really does take a specific combo for them to seem "worth it"). Or they might prove to really be too expensive.

Tank prices- weird me out, more than anything. Vanquisher price is crazy without the HE round unless you have a lot of AV13/14 (anyone remember if the AP shell keeps the extra D6 against monoliths? I want to say 'no' but I also vaguely remember it getting FAQ'd at one point before codex almost-4th took our vanqs away), in which case it becomes reasonable (since it'll spend the whole game shooting up armor), Demolisher is paying out the wazoo for 1 point of armor difference (granted, an important difference in the new vehicle assault rules) compared to the now-14/13/10 LRBT (stronger gun, much shorter range, and no longer has "can get plasma/melta sponsons" to justify bumping the points), and while lumbering means a fully-loaded Demolisher really will live up to its name (and hence explain the points cost) it also makes me wish I could just take a hull-mounted plasma cannon and no sponsons (since the range will have me wanting to keep it moving a lot). Meanwhile the new/returning artillery sounds in some cases possibly undercosted (if the hydra really is 2xtwin-linked heavy 2 + ignores speed-based saves, 75 points? I can see those easily being points-efficient *without* skimmers to shoot at, simply because of the number of hits you can get on MCs and transports).

So, IMO lots to be excited about but I can certainly empathize with people sitting on a bunch of ogryn and ST models (or just wanting to use an elite other than Ratlings but don't like/trust the psykers), both of those units rumored stats/costs reinforce the whole "guard don't scale down terribly well" phenomenon- they're pricey for a big game, and break the bank in a smaller (1500, mind, not talking 500 point lunch-break games) game, becoming a very expensive basket of eggs.

Khornies & milk
25-03-2009, 20:38
I have an 'outline'of my standard IG army done, but where I'm having trouble is deciding on what FA model/configurations to take. I'm also a bit perplexed by the HWT discussions going on, so don't know whether or not to take them in 3's or put them in Infantry Squads

I have plenty of Tanks (14), Sentinels (9), 60 Cadians, 32 Kasrkins (Vets with Carapace), and 5 Chimeras.
I'll wait until I see the Codex myself plus take advice from the IG Tactica before finalizing my list. I do have the luxury of only playing larger - sized games, 2250+, so I can use a lot of my minis regularly.

I'm buying 3 Valkyries (which will become Vendettas) and 3 Company Command boxes, which should be all I need.

Bring on May!

boogle
25-03-2009, 20:50
Main problem here is that a lot of the mathammer is people are taking each unit in a 1-on-1 situation, much like they have done with Sternguard and Vespids in the past, rather than looking how each unit would fit in with their army and offer benefits to their force.

RR maintinaing their lance bonuses make them still a very good choice and very cheap too, ST and Ogryns, well i'll play with them and see exactly how good they are becfore adding more comments

Marshal Sinclair
25-03-2009, 21:17
I have never really put much thought into my Guard armies before, merely collecting vast amounts of models which never really saw the table. I have begun thinking about how to structure my Guard armies though with the new book looming. My Cadians are going to have a Armoured Fist platoon (I've been buying up Chimeras and going at them with a saw all week) and a fire base platoon, backed up with 9 Sentinals (just one more to buy) and 3 Russ variants.

My Krieg have always been intended to be a Siege regiment, and so have lots of heavy guns (3 Heavy Mortars, 3 Thudd Guns, 2 Bombards, a Basilisk, and 6 Mortars (need more! mortars!), but I will still need to use IA for a lot of this stuff, so the new book doesn't matter too much.

I am not sure what I will do with my Tallarns, as I want them to be some sort of light infantry force. Currently I have 2 platoons equiped with a plasma gun in every squad and attached anti-tank (missile launchers) squads, along with 2 Basilisks and 6 Sentinels. I guess they can stay pretty similar, although I would like them to be more mobile, so maybe these will be my airborn army (every Guard player will have to have one now!).

As for my Vostroyans... I am not even sure I will be able to take troop choice carapace armoured squads anymore (can anybody confirm if I can or not?) so I don't know what to do with them yet. I am sure something will come up!

Imperius
25-03-2009, 23:56
Why shouldn't your Vostroyans get Carapace? They are still Guardsmen, and their *bling* armour already looks good without green putty.

Marshal Sinclair
26-03-2009, 00:17
Green putty? huh? They already have Carapace modelled. I was asking whether or not I can take Infantry Platoons with Carapace still! :p

Blinder
26-03-2009, 00:20
Platoons apparently not, but 6x carapace-choice veteran squads yes. So, depending on how many you have, you might not be able to field them all (of course, can probably get creative with other unit and count-as), but the army as a whole should still be "viable."

Marshal Sinclair
26-03-2009, 00:32
So I wont be able to take both platoons? They are GWs newest model range (I don't think there is any whole range newer) and they are already invalidating them as an army? I am excited about the new book of course, but that just put a downer on it...

Bunnahabhain
26-03-2009, 00:44
There doesn't appear to be any way to take standard platoons with carapace. However, with the premium being charged for it, that's not a bad thing....

Either accept their dress armour isn't effective enough to warrant a 4+ save ( bad batch , maybe?), take them as veterans, or house rule it , at a sensible cost, with your friends.

Don't get pissed off about GWs shortcomings, when it won't do any good, just try and find sensible solutions.

GIKvack
27-03-2009, 15:57
I have to say as a whole... i'm entirly on the fence with the new Dex. I will have to learn somethings first!

I play my army as a Drop Troopers army, I have no heavy weapons in my infantry. This is looking to be a dead strategy now, which makes me sad. I've gotten a little famous for deploying nothing at the beginning of the game, also it was alot of fun. Is this option totally gone now? Or severly pulled back (just as bad for me).

Also side question about the Deathstrike, is the D3+3" blast rolling for the Diameter, or the radius? If its a diameter... i'll pass, but a radius, i'm now very curious. 8"-12" blast template would be apocolypse brought to the small scale!

I have to comment that the earlier eldar vs IG comparisons were horrible. The only one even close was the shinning spears to RR.

As for the questions at the beginning of the thread:

Ogryns at now... sadly, still not going to be used in my army. I've had a ogryn squad + some cool stand ins (the trollkin from Warmachine) sitting on my shelves for more than a decade waiting for GW to make me want to use them. I guess I have longer to wait.

The Storm troopers were to expensive for what they did in the current codex, now i'm definently not going to use them. And way for GW to keep showing thier creative spirit!
+++ Lets make people want to use Thousand suns, give them AP 3!++
+++ Lets make people want to use Tzeetch Deamons, give them AP 3!++
+++ Lets make people want to use Stern Guard, give them AP 3!++
+++ Lets make people want to use Storm Troopers, give them AP 3!++
I bet when the Necrons come out, pariahs are made "good" with AP3 weapons...

RR I never used them, but thats because I couldn't deep strike them, But if I can't deep strike my army anymore, I might think about them... although I've never liked thier look.

O My! Work is over... i'll finish this later!

Captain Micha
27-03-2009, 16:08
the Vox nerf I'm not liking at all. Ogryn still are pants, but that's nothing new to me anyway.

I'm liking almost everything else though.

Perfect Organism
27-03-2009, 16:30
Do people think that an 'armoured company' style list with few infantry and lots of tanks will be a viable option? The general opinion of 5th edition seems to be that scoring units are so important you need to make them the main focus of your army, but to be honest, I'm more interested in building and painting tanks than infantry and I'd rather focus on that unless it's absolute suicide to do so.

Captain Micha
27-03-2009, 16:31
Actually I predict that for Kp that will be the -only- option so to speak thanks to Bad Vox rules.

Marshal Sinclair
27-03-2009, 19:01
What do you mean when you say the Vox rules have been nerfed? That they don't confer the Offrs Ld anymore? This looks to be more than made up for by the new Orders system which can be sent through the Vox. In all fairness I didn't use a Vox net before (although all my squads have one in there), so it's nothing lost to me.

DerNetteErich
27-03-2009, 19:15
BEHOLD ! ;)
i found the solution for our "problem" of a squad of 3 LR(BT) having to fire at the same target and therefore providing overkills. This squad of 3 LR(BT) will most likely draw most or all of the enemys anti-tank weapon arsenal and most likely shake/stun/weapon-/destroy more or less of the squadrons tanks, so less to fire back .... there problem solved no overkill anymore :D
You may now praise me and thank me and hail me :P
(If such a joke was already posted or ur not finding this post funny, let me apologise for wasting ur time reading this and feel free to ignore my post, thank you)

RichBlake
27-03-2009, 19:33
So I wont be able to take both platoons? They are GWs newest model range (I don't think there is any whole range newer) and they are already invalidating them as an army? I am excited about the new book of course, but that just put a downer on it...


I don't see how they are "invalid" any more. Thats like saying Cadians aren't "valid" because I can no longer take doctrines to represent them (i.e sharpshooters, iron discipline, grenediers, sanctioned psykers, stormtroopers, special weapon squads and Conscript platoons) yet anyone arguing Cadians have been "invalidated" would be dismissed.

Seriously, those guys may not have a 4+ save but the army itself is still valid, its just different.

Torga_DW
27-03-2009, 19:47
What do you mean when you say the Vox rules have been nerfed? That they don't confer the Offrs Ld anymore? This looks to be more than made up for by the new Orders system which can be sent through the Vox. In all fairness I didn't use a Vox net before (although all my squads have one in there), so it's nothing lost to me.

I was just reading in the rumours section, and as far as i can tell, orders don't get sent via vox either. 6" range for platoon command squads, and 12" range for company command squads. Which leaves me wondering just what exactly voxes do in the new codex. :(

Hicks
27-03-2009, 19:50
I'm really not happy with what I've seen so far (I even changed my IG avatar because IG doesn't appeal to me nearly as much now). There are so many nerfs and price hikes it's ridiculous.

Nobody has I4 now, was that really so cheezy to have commissars and lieutenants that might have a chance at killing one marine before dying horribly with the rest of his command squad?

Ogryns are terrible at that price I think. I'll gladly pay 6pts more and take GKTs instead. They can't even be bought in squads of 10 anymore... so yeah 3 models I won't be able to use anymore.

Storm troopers... now that's 70 more models I'm not ever touching again. 16pts... then I look at fire dragons and all I can think of is :wtf:.

Plasma is even more expensive, but it still won't hit half the time and gets hot will continue to kill guardsmen in droves.

Instead of adjusting the current point costs and giving a little boost to units who needed it GW just overhauled everything and slapped huge point costs on everything that's not a lowly guardsmen. When I field an IG army I want to have more models than my opponent, not flashier rules.

Marshal Sinclair
27-03-2009, 19:54
So Guardsmen got a price drop, and got the ability to destroy tanks in melee (frags are Str 4 in combat against tanks), and you're complaining that you can't tank as many of them as you'd like? :wtf: Even with the funky special rules you'll be fielding more infantry models.

Hicks
27-03-2009, 20:02
I would only be fielding more models if I went for a pure lasgun force and quite frankly I don't see why being able to blow tanks in CC is supposed to make me happy... you know with all the AT guns at our disposal I find it wasn't really needed at all.

Marshal Sinclair
27-03-2009, 20:20
In all fairness they were probably fed up with seeing battle lines full of nothing but Plasma / Lascannon squads.

DerNetteErich
27-03-2009, 20:28
well then now that is getting exchanged with grenadelauncher/lascannon squads?

Torga_DW
27-03-2009, 20:35
Yeah i got to admit, its looking like the new rules encourage nothing but las/plas spam. After all, they're the most efficient troops now.

Walls
27-03-2009, 21:23
Wait... how did Vox get nerfed worse then it already is?

DerNetteErich
27-03-2009, 21:33
just take a look at the rumor thread (ok its hard taging along), anyway it was stated that ALL a vox does in this codex is, letting u re-roll the ld-test u make when testing for an order, not giving u unlimited order-range, not giving u the ld of ur officer, nothing else

Marneus Calgar
27-03-2009, 21:35
So Guardsmen got a price drop, and got the ability to destroy tanks in melee (frags are Str 4 in combat against tanks), and you're complaining that you can't tank as many of them as you'd like? :wtf: Even with the funky special rules you'll be fielding more infantry models.

Right, because of the hundreds of points that I spend on range anti tank weaponry, I drop all my guns just so I charge and punch some tanks in close combat. :eyebrows:

A pathetic upgrade. If given the option, I would have rather taken 40 point guardsmen and have frag grenades as an option (making them 50 points).

Cheaper guardsmen are offset by the increase in price of just about everything else.

Walls
27-03-2009, 21:37
Ahhh...

I bet it does more then allow rerolls on orders. I am guessing it's a combination of 4th and 5th.

As always, I am definitely taking a "Not real until I see it" stance.

Blinder
27-03-2009, 21:39
Vox *apparently* now:

Allows a re-roll for orders. It does *not* however allow you to use the officer's leadership for that re-roll nor does it allow you to give orders to a squad outside the officer's orders bubble. It also no longer allows you to use the officer's leadership for any other tests, as apparently the Leadership rule (and thus bubble) is gone (except possibly for a 6" bubble around the Lord Commissar and I think I also read Yarrick).

So, voxes don't do any of the things they currently do, and a lot of people aren't too keen on 5 points for the one thing they do allow you to do.

That is, *if* the current rumors are correct and there isn't information shoved in some inane part of the codex... which from the admittedly few looks I've had through other recent codices is not something I'll be willing to rule out until I've been able to get one for myself and read it. And again. 5 times.

MMM... ninjas...

DerNetteErich
27-03-2009, 21:42
well we're guardsmen so we have to take everything we possibly get, what else is there between us and mankind ... marines? well .... then .... dunno ... just .. let's play as we did the last codex and pretend nothing happened, ok? :p
i mean hey at least we didnt get (much) worse than before, i wasnt expecting anything to begin with :) so i'm happy i was not disappointed ;)

djinn8
27-03-2009, 22:11
I don't really get this whole doom and gloom Storm Trooper talk. For the same price as an Eversor Assassin you can get 5 Stormies with a Plasma. That seems right to me.

Marneus Calgar
27-03-2009, 22:39
I don't really get this whole doom and gloom Storm Trooper talk. For the same price as an Eversor Assassin you can get 5 Stormies with a Plasma. That seems right to me.

For that same 5 Stormtroopers, with a single plasma, I can nearly get 2 full squads of guardsmen.

Fact is that Stormtroopers went up 63% in points. In an age where volume of fire is of greater need than AP, they finally begin to give us AP weapons. Stormtroopers just got a whole lot worse against anything which has an armor save of 5+. They are still a one time suicide unit.

Sarah S
27-03-2009, 22:47
Who would be dumb enough to use Conscripts now? Since they're only 1 point less than regular troopers, but with worse everything, what the hell's the point?

Killgore
27-03-2009, 23:00
Who would be dumb enough to use Conscripts now? Since they're only 1 point less than regular troopers, but with worse everything, what the hell's the point?

depends what ya gunna use them for

my intended IG army is going to be a mad assortment of Conscripts, Penal legions, Psyker units with as many Commisars and Priests that i can cram in lol

my conscripts are going to be crazed close combat tarpits and 4+ save shield, shooting isnt really a required function for these boys!

djinn8
27-03-2009, 23:08
For that same 5 Stormtroopers, with a single plasma, I can nearly get 2 full squads of guardsmen.

Yes but for those points you get two full squads of guardsmen without heavy or special weapons. So four times the men, but none of the extra rules, none of the firepower and a worse stat line.

DerNetteErich
27-03-2009, 23:19
Who would be dumb enough to use Conscripts now? Since they're only 1 point less than regular troopers, but with worse everything, what the hell's the point?
Well what did u expect, normal guardsmen getting cheaper, what pts cost should conscripts get (assuming they dont get a special rule) 3pts? cant be compared to gretchins they're still by far better, so u only can let them cost 4 pts. (again without some kinda spec. rule)

Sarah S
28-03-2009, 00:03
Yeah, but with the new cost of the standard trooper, and the ability to combine the guard Infantry units, you end up with 30 regular troopers, 3 special and 3 heavy weapons in a single infantry unit OR 50 Conscripts with nothing for about the same points cost.

It just seems stupid that anyone would be willing to give up special weapons AND heavy weapons AND frag grenades AND trade BS3 for BS2 AND trade WS3 for WS2 AND trade Ld7 for Ld5 for a single point per model.

That's a really bad trade!

DerNetteErich
28-03-2009, 00:11
yep atm i too think i wouldnt make that trade, but hey i'm still waiting for some kind of "Operation Human Shield" for them :p ... "protect our tanks too"

Treadhead_1st
28-03-2009, 00:25
For that same 5 Stormtroopers, with a single plasma, I can nearly get 2 full squads of guardsmen.

Fact is that Stormtroopers went up 63% in points. In an age where volume of fire is of greater need than AP, they finally begin to give us AP weapons. Stormtroopers just got a whole lot worse against anything which has an armor save of 5+. They are still a one time suicide unit.

I'm gonna take Storm Troopers (since I've got to try them out, just because the models are fairly nice) with Flamers to off-set the weakness versus weaker enemies. Since their basic guns can take down most enemies (Tyrants, Deamon Princes, Elite-level Carnifex) that my boys struggle with, I don't see such need for powerful Special Weapons, and the Flamer makes them lovely and multi-role. Sure, you aren't using the BS you're paying for, but I see things like Plasma Guns and Meltaguns less necessary now our Hellguns can deny the save of big monsters and the Krak Grenades can eliminate most enemy vehicles with ease.

That, or chuck them in a Valkyrie/Vendetta with Rocket Pods/Hellfury Missiles to make up for the weakness against lighter troops.


Speaking of which, is anyone looking into taking a Vendetta/Valkyrie as a pure gunship (with the Transport function as a secondary bonus rather than primary function)? With door gunners and blast-weapons they should be rather useful at sweeping down on the enemy (12") and unleashing a ton of firepower.

Sounds kinda nifty to me. I wouldn't like to load up on them, but I feel that one or two could be really helpful.


In other news, if the Vox is as bad as the Rumour thread currently states (ie, only lets you re-roll Orders, but doesn't allow you to extend the Orders radius), then I probably won't bother with the network, opting for a Standard in the HQ instead (as supposedly the one available in Company Command Squads functions just like the current one). It's a shame, as I was hoping to "modernise" my Guard (ie, use Voxes), but the change in the rumours makes me doubtful of the usefulness.

Mainly because I wanted to extend the distance orders can be cast, as although a 6/12" radius sounds good, terrain and damaged vehicles can easily split your squads up, rendering them out of range (particularly a problem for Platoons trying to get through cover).

Marneus Calgar
28-03-2009, 00:27
Yes but for those points you get two full squads of guardsmen without heavy or special weapons. So four times the men, but none of the extra rules, none of the firepower and a worse stat line.

Right, but their firepower is nearly equivalent against Space Marines, even without special weapons. Yet against Orks, guardsmen kill about twice as much as a stormtrooper would.

DerNetteErich
28-03-2009, 00:52
well i think if i should field real ST (not vet. with grenadiers) i will try to use them against special squads to which my enemy is relying (at best when they're isolated), lets say for example eldars aspect warriors, khaindar would be a good target, though why should an eldar take them against guard u could ask ... well maybe in an allied game with a space marine player on my side :)
or against devastor/havoc squads or maybe tau ghosts (will certainly see through their "nightvisiontesting" if i have to be in 18" anyway)
but fielding them as a "main-force" against other "main-forces" of necrons/csm/sm, only because they have the ap3, i think isnt recommended


Another idea, maybe the "new" lined gunfire guard could be deployed like this:
first rank opposing the enemy line = guardsmen (maybe even conscripts?)
second rank chimeras behind those line infanrty (which should provide enough cover that they get themself a cover-save), deployed so that the side is facing the enemy (so that the third line behind them get more cover :) )
and then as third line behind them either LR or Sentinels, maybe with camo-nettings?

hmm that would be, .. lets say 2-3 squads of infantry, 2 chimeras and the third line, whatever that may be ... hmm maybe a bit too costly for those cover saves ... maybe some chimeras would be enough (hoping that they remain as wrecks on the field)

Treadhead_1st
28-03-2009, 01:19
well i think if i should field real ST (not vet. with grenadiers) i will try to use them against special squads to which my enemy is relying (at best when they're isolated), lets say for example eldars aspect warriors, khaindar would be a good target, though why should an eldar take them against guard u could ask ... well maybe in an allied game with a space marine player on my side :)
or against devastor/havoc squads or maybe tau ghosts (will certainly see through their "nightvisiontesting" if i have to be in 18" anyway)
but fielding them as a "main-force" against other "main-forces" of necrons/csm/sm, only because they have the ap3, i think isnt recommended

That's exactly how I intend to use them - except "dug into" my main line to respond to things like Assault Marines the enemy sends my way. Yes, a turn's firing will not kill the whole squad, but it will (especially if the enemy charge too) weaken it to a point where the next rounds' rapid-firing Lasguns can finish them off.

Add on that Flyer for repositioning and you can go and hunt down enemy units, putting some initial hurt on them before they can retaliate against the rest of the army (where you can then whittle them down further with long-ranged heavy weapon fire), potentially eliminating enemy key units before they can have any influence in the battle.

Yes, the ST may die in such a mission, but if it saves my (now increadibly "green") Guardsmen from coming under attack, and subsequently dieing/fleeing, then it's a worthy sacrifice. And well worth the points cost.

DerNetteErich
28-03-2009, 01:30
For this "respond to things like assault marines" i would rather use, for that purpose, a banewolf hidden behind some terrain/chimera or some roughriders, or even if all that isnt an option a squad of penal legionaires / guardsmen squad with commissar, so that this stubborn counterassault-unit charges the enemy first (taking the enemys furios charge if given) and hopefully hold them off until the end of the opponents cc-phase.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-03-2009, 01:30
Ironic that a few weeks ago IG players were talking about being the abused puppies of GW, but now finally somebody had given them hope etc...

Lets hope it doesn't turn out like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Adam583/lul.jpg

DerNetteErich
28-03-2009, 01:33
Lets hope it doesn't turn out like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Adam583/lul.jpg

quite funny indeed ;)

Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 01:45
As a long term guard player, I'm overall quite pleased by the new shape of the codex.

I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that a lot of the glaring flaws in the previous guard list have been addressed; for example, officers being targetable, the massive overstock of killpoints any guard army (from both officers and platoons), the crowding of heavy support with individual tanks.

As for the points costs, invalidation of certain units (e.g. Vostroyan armies) and so on, I think we really have to wait for the codex. For example, as a Steel Legion player, I'm still waiting anxiously to find out if mechanised platoons are still available, and whether my Chimera's can "merge for the kill" if they're part of a platoon.

Ultimately, I think regardless of the fate of assorted special units, the vast improvement in the feasibility of basic infantry, the huge variety and improvement in tank variants add to the core feel of the army. if I had to choose between improvement of the core units of the army (always a weakness in guard) and improvements to special units, I'd come down on the side of the core, every time.

Of course, it's a shame it has to be that way. It would be nice if everything in the army was good, but I'm not sure that's ever happened in a codex yet. Even the excellent Marine and Ork codices have clunkers like the Thunderfire cannon. (Before you ask, it's Artillery which means it's an armour ten vehicle that dies to any glance or penetrate. And it's not indrect fire. And it has one crewman, with one wound.)

I was going to post this at the end of this GIANT discussion thread, but realised it's ten thousand pages long, and no-one would read my ahem, wisdom. Also, that thread is mostly about Ogryns and Stormtroopers, but i'd like to broaden the discussion of all the units... I think I'll start a new post for that.

Lord Cook
28-03-2009, 03:41
Who would be dumb enough to use Conscripts now? Since they're only 1 point less than regular troopers, but with worse everything, what the hell's the point?

If you wanted a 50-man mob of troops and you intended to add a commissar and priest, conscripts would be the better deal. Lower leadership is irrelevant because you have a commissar. Ws2 makes no difference at all versus Ws4, and you won't be fighting anything with less than Ws4 in combat anyway. As for Bs2 and no weapon options, that wouldn't be the point of the unit. Charge with 50 conscripts and a priest for re-rolls to hit and you can dominate combat, especially if they have an order for furious charge. Guardsmen would be 50 points more expensive in that situation, and for what benefit? Just so you could spend more points to add weapons you'll probably never use? And depending on how much he costs, Chenkov can recycle conscript platoons indefinitely.

Who would make blanket statements without thinking before they type?

Dogface
28-03-2009, 07:47
State your oppinions - with short explanations.

1. Ogryns Suck ?

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?

3. Rough Riders Suck ?

4. Everything is to expensive ?


1. Always have, always will for me. Too expensive (real life and in game wise), the models are *****, and I hate the fluff.

2. Love the old vacuum-suits, and I don't mind the newer Kasrkins. I'll probably have a unit painted up for show case but that's about it.

3. Never liked Rough Riders either, I've always felt that Ogryns, Ratlings, and Rough Riders were throwbacks that the Imperial Guard codices don't need anymore.

4. Well, sure, in real life :P

Frostea
28-03-2009, 08:05
Don't think this has been mentioned yet, but if you take a psyker battle squad (or whatever it's called), used the psychic power that drops the Ld of enemies in 24" radius, then used a Callidus Assassin's Neural Flamer, I think that could potentially destroy practically any unit there are. Goodbye, Nobs of every kind!

DerNetteErich
28-03-2009, 12:25
well this had not been mentioned, however there was a discussion of another assassin (the anti-psyker one) Culexus(?), which possesses a pistol whose shots is (S5 Ap2) Pistol 2 + the number of psykers within 12" or something like that, so keeping the psyker battle squads within its reach would be funny.

Pyriel
28-03-2009, 12:44
It seems Robbin Cruddace is going for the following theme with IG:
-get 80-100 troops with next-to-no upgrades, just as scoring units(about 600 pts).
-get 2 chimeras,2 banewolves/devil dogs and 2 vanquishers.
-dont want to field a mixed force but an infantry-heavy or one with weird units like stormies/commissars/ogryns for fluff?suck it up, lolz, i dont care!

thats what he's trying to say. It sounds harsh but it has a point-I mean, like other armies need to field some "fixed" stuff to win(fire dragons on falcon, drop pod/rhino tacsquads/sternguards, etc.). It isnt very fluffy/customizable but it might work play-wise.

Frostea
28-03-2009, 12:53
well this had not been mentioned, however there was a discussion of another assassin (the anti-psyker one) Culexus(?), which possesses a pistol whose shots is (S5 Ap2) Pistol 2 + the number of psykers within 12" or something like that, so keeping the psyker battle squads within its reach would be funny.

That's the Animus Speculum, a S5 AP1 Assault 2+number of psykers within 12". While the psyker battle squad could bring it up to 11 shots, they would be affected by the Culexus Assassin's "Souless" special rule, which brings down the entire unit to Ld7, including friendlies. This would mean the psyker squad themselves would barely be able to use their psyker skills, which would suck compared to the neural flamer insta-gibbing anything hit by it on a 2+.

DerNetteErich
28-03-2009, 13:19
well with 3 psyker squads this pistol would shot 32 S5 Ap1 shots which isnt that bad too (BS5 i assume)
and ld dropping from 8-9 to 7 doesnt mean they cant use a power anymore, the chances sunk but its still their, and i dunno if its already clearified how the psykers ld-dropping ability works, but until now i assumed its a passiv ability, but that may be too strong?

Sarah S
28-03-2009, 15:13
If you wanted a 50-man mob of troops and you intended to add a commissar and priest, conscripts would be the better deal. Lower leadership is irrelevant because you have a commissar. Ws2 makes no difference at all versus Ws4, and you won't be fighting anything with less than Ws4 in combat anyway. As for Bs2 and no weapon options, that wouldn't be the point of the unit. Charge with 50 conscripts and a priest for re-rolls to hit and you can dominate combat, especially if they have an order for furious charge.

Want to bet whether anyone actually does that?

That's a lot of points invested into a unit with a huge footprint. I do believe it would require a very fortuitous and unlikely set of circumstances to actually be able to assault anything with such a unit.

My bet would be that any such unit would instead get assaulted in the opponents turn, lose combat by 10-20 and vanish before getting to swing.


And depending on how much he costs, Chenkov can recycle conscript platoons indefinitely.
He's expensive.
The upgrade is for the conscript unit is stupidly expensive.
They enter from a table edge.

Not a great deal for your "assault" unit of doom.

DerNetteErich
28-03-2009, 16:49
My bet would be that any such unit would instead get assaulted in the opponents turn, lose combat by 10-20 and vanish before getting to swing.
Assuming a commissar can join them and gives them stubborn and ld9, last shouldnt happen that often.

IAMNOTHERE
28-03-2009, 21:12
Lord Cook alreeady has somthing similar to that. As well as being a pain in the hoop it also provides all of his squads behind it with a 4+ cover save.

It really is a pain.

Poseidal
28-03-2009, 21:54
well with 3 psyker squads this pistol would shot 32 S5 Ap1 shots which isnt that bad too (BS5 i assume)
and ld dropping from 8-9 to 7 doesnt mean they cant use a power anymore, the chances sunk but its still their, and i dunno if its already clearified how the psykers ld-dropping ability works, but until now i assumed its a passiv ability, but that may be too strong?

Only two squads are allowed. The Culexus will take an Elites slot himself, and they are apparently elites.

You can add the (compulsory) Inqusitor Lord as a psyker though.

Marshal Sinclair
28-03-2009, 21:56
With his three bound psychers for more shots.

izandral
29-03-2009, 02:39
don't know if it was said somewhere but what is the advantage of a colossus compared to a medusa appart from a longer (uselessly long) range ??

chinnfrequent
29-03-2009, 02:52
don't know if it was said somewhere but what is the advantage of a colossus compared to a medusa appart from a longer (uselessly long) range ??

The colossus I believe ignores cover.

Lord Cook
29-03-2009, 05:33
That's a lot of points invested into a unit with a huge footprint. I do believe it would require a very fortuitous and unlikely set of circumstances to actually be able to assault anything with such a unit.

You're deploying defensively in front of your army. Not only can you cover a large area, but if your opponent refuses to advance within 12" of it, that alone gives you an advantage. You're rendering a large portion of your army very difficult to assault unless he has units with fleet which are generally small like Aspect Warriors who will be overwhelmed, or unpopular and rarely used like hormagaunts. Ork mobs would have to call a Waagh in order to make a charge on it. And of course the conscripts can still shoot, albeit not particularly well, but a single fire by ranks order would spit out 100 shots at 24".

This is not some kind of amazing tactic. I have no idea how well it will work, but at least give it a bit more thought into the potential possibilities than just "Who would be dumb enough to use Conscripts now?"


He's expensive.
The upgrade is for the conscript unit is stupidly expensive.
They enter from a table edge.
Not a great deal for your "assault" unit of doom.

True, but Chenkov is taken instead of your platoon commander right, and can do other things? So his cost can hardly be added on to the conscript unit, unless you intend to hide him behind a rock and do nothing with him all game. And while they won't be able to assault anything after being recycled, what if you've put an objective near the board edge? I don't know yet whether or not this will be effective, given that I haven't seen the rules or costs for Chenkov.

AllisterCaine
29-03-2009, 08:17
You guys really need to take orders more seriously. Like Cook said, get creative with it. +1 shot to all lasguns on a conscript squad will yield upwards of 100/150 shots a turn (roughly 33/50 hits). If you need them to survive, give them the "Incoming" order, which apparently doesn't prevent you from charging. With a commissar and a priest in that unit, you have a huge block of infantry that wont be running away and will be able to hold their ground in combat, if needed. If you use Creed, furious charge can potentially yield 100 S4 reroll to hit attacks.

If you merge your normal infantry squads together, your orders will apply to all of them as well. Also imagine a 10 man ratling unit shooting at MCs while benefiting from the TL order. Or special weapon teams with demo charges benefiting from the reroll cover saves order.

Give the reroll successful cover saves from shooting order and +1 lasgun shot to Stormtroopers and you have a squad that can pump out 30 S3 Ap3 shots which also forces the opponent to reroll successful cover saves. Dont even get me started on the stormtroopers themselves, in my opinion they're more than worth their points.

And this is all just off the top of my head. Take the time to analyze things a bit more before you cry yourself a river of tears. And for the last time, show some respect to the person who's writing the damn book.

DarkMatter2
29-03-2009, 09:08
My track of following this codex has been:

Suspicious--->Ecstatic---->Deeply Disappointed--->Hopeful

TheOverlord
29-03-2009, 09:31
The orders for the extra fire doesn't apply to Stormtroopers, does it? It mentions 'lasgun only', not sure if that applies to the hellgun.

But conscripts only dropping one point less than a guardsmen seems like a lesson in futility, even if you buy 50 of them you only save 50 extra points than if you bought normal guardsmen instead, which would buy you what, one extra chimera, but a large tarpit unit like that is nothing to sniff at with proper leadership. It won't be useless, but I don't see it being really all that popular with armies, unless you enjoy using conscript armies then power to you.

Marshal Sinclair
29-03-2009, 09:57
Stick a 35 point Commisar in there and it's a conscript unit that isn't going to run away and is going to provide a cover save to your entire army.

Steel Legion for Life
29-03-2009, 10:08
And the entire enemy army as well, of course, as the platoon drill rule didn't materialise:) Still, thing have cover saves 95% of the time these days (ever played intermingled Orks?), so yeah, you will get your screen if you want one.

The depth of footprint of conscripts is misleading; I have run with units of 20, and use ordnance template sized as movement trays for those units (yeah, I use movement trays for guard; Close Order drill even made it good in the game), which are surprisingly easy to maneuver. Equally, the sheer number lets you BLOCK line of sight with them, which is quite hard to do with regular troops.

The footprint of a 40 man unit is 5x8; I frequently see regular guard squads dispersed filling that sort of space. Put two CDs infront of you; that's the bases of 40 models, condensed.

Often, 12 year olds ask me why I use conscripts, because they have "the worst stats in the game". They're also the cheapest unit guard have, just as resilient as basic troops, and basic infantry pay ten points for a Ld increase which is just as worthless in CC. In fact, in some ways they're more resilient, as the unit size means they're less likely to take panic tests from long range fire, like optimistic heavy bolters.

Guard players, file all the "why would you ever use these" under "people who play space marines who won't like anything without BS4". Think a bit. They are useful troops. Maybe less useful without leadership bubbles, but meh, they were a bit good at Ld9/10 (HSO+Close Order), switching to Ld 5 when you wanted them to run. And they couldn't screen things.

I use conscripts at the moment, and I agree with 95% of the positive things mentioned so far.

The Chenkov order is good for one thing, ensuring your baseline objective is always contested, as anyone who's played against Without Number termagants will attest. It's about the same cost as the without number on a per model basis; cheaper if you have 30+ conscripts. Also, Chenkov makes them stubborn, for what it's worth.

I won't be using Chenkov, because he's a Valhallan!

RE: stormtroopers - FAQ time - They have "Hot-shot Lasguns"; are they eligible for the Lasgun fire order? Thoughts?

Count de Monet
29-03-2009, 13:42
RE: stormtroopers - FAQ time - They have "Hot-shot Lasguns"; are they eligible for the Lasgun fire order? Thoughts?

I would imagine not. Things with similar names don't benefit from special rules for a specific weapon type - different name/stats is a different weapon type. Hot-shot lasguns aren't lasguns for lasgun-specific rules anymore than storm bolters are bolters for Sternguard special rules.

Admiral Halsey
29-03-2009, 14:42
Allthough it is worth considering that GW intentionally renamed hellguns back to hotshot lasguns.

Could this be intentionally to allow them to work with this order?

It could of cource be for fluff reasons, but since GW re-writes the fluff with every new codex, this seems unlikely.

Edit -
It's also worth noting that under the current Codex you can't use Close Order drill to get conscripts to leadership 10.
HSO + Commissar does equal leadership 10. But Close Order Drill + HSO = 9, because it states under Close Order that units may only benifit when using -their own- leadership, and not the leadership of a nearby officer.

(But Close Order + HSO + Commissar does make the command Squad the mythical leadership 11. :P Not that you can take advantage of that of cource.)

Marshal Sinclair
29-03-2009, 14:50
Or could you? If you had the Ld 11 you'd still be testing on a 10, but as with negative armour saves in WFB perhaps it matters when you start modifying it? So a Ld 11 with -2 modifier would test on 9, instead of 10? Just musing...

Lord_Crull
29-03-2009, 14:56
I won't be using Chenkov, because he's a Valhallan!



Why not rename him and remodel him? Marines can do it with thier named characters.

Marshal Sinclair
29-03-2009, 15:04
Why not rename him and remodel him? Marines can do it with thier named characters.

Because the IG is about playing with hordes of men, not taking the most "uber powerful" characters. We'll leave that to the Marines and Eldar.

eldaran
29-03-2009, 15:35
Gunline builds only work, in my experience, if you have Counterassault capabilities. Armies in 5th edition are FAST and will get to you quickly.

Now that RR are obsolete, we have no counterassault. I have NO IDEA how we are going to stop a rampaging mechanized assault marine force.

Use your cheaper autocannons to blow the tanks up, maybe? you can get a platoon with three lascannons, three autocannons and a heavy bolter for under 400 points. That means that you can easily buy two of those with points left over for toys that can have a good go at 4 different troop transports (and you can't take that many transports in 1500 points...)

Personally, i think that the Guard codex is rock hard! Having seen it and spent several hours working out the various builds you could get, i don't really see why people are criticising the codexi so much. Granted, i'm not a guard player, but i can see lists that can shove serious numbers of ordnance templates in, which hurt (valkyries), and the Leman Russes are very good for their costs - being able to move 6" and shoot an ordnance template and another weapon (which sounds pretty good to me)

just my thoughts...

victorpofa
29-03-2009, 15:52
State your oppinions - with short explanations.

1. Ogryns Suck ?

2. Storm Troopers Suck ?

3. Rough Riders Suck ?

4. Everything is to expensive ?

1. Yes. I have not seen the new codex yet, but at $20 each for the models they would have to be very effective to be worth the money. From what I hear they are not. If they come out with plastics (unlikely due to the recently redone metals) I will put a squad in irregardless of effectiveness.

2. Yes. They are more expensive, and did not fix the most critical weakness in them. The Hellgun is still Rapid Fire and not Assault. I care not about AP3. It is all about the move and shoot. 18" Assault 1 would be better than Rapid Fire AP3 IMHO.

3. No idea. I plan on making a squad based off Scout Bikes, but if they are worse than current I may drop that project.

4. No idea as I have not seen the book. Just read comments by those who have.

I will not be happy if the new codex makes IG Heavy Weapon delivery systems, and hope Heavy Weapon Teams are not subject to instant death thanks to the two wound system rumored. I do look forward to seeing the book int he near future, and the new models.

AllisterCaine
29-03-2009, 17:11
Regarding the hellguns, I believe they were renamed for a reason. The term "hotshot" refers to the type of ammo used by the gun; the gun is a still a lasgun. This is completely different than a storm bolter to a bolter- they are different weapons, whereas the lasgun and the lasgun firing hotshot rounds are the same.

Uber powerful characters? I wasn't aware we had any. Guard officers are meant to be good in the support sense, ie leadership and other special abilities. Im glad that this is the way it is now, with maybe Iron Hand as the only exception.

Autocannons are better vs tanks now. Give them the order and you'll have 2 S8 shots per gun. This will probably even be better than heavier weapons when you're shooting at light vehicles or squadrons.