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LKHERO
22-03-2009, 19:04
I'm having a hard time imagining what a really overpowered VC list would look like.

The guys that I play with don't run VC, but they do run DE and Daemons for the most part.

I wonder what makes VC insanely hard (ranked 2 here on the forums) in terms of sheer power. Is it their magic phase? Their close combat phase? What is it exactly?

Sample lists would be great (especially of recent tournaments and GTs) so I can familiarize myself with VC before I play against them. I'm supposed to be pairing up against some beardy VC players in my next local tourney and I'm extremely curious to what I should expect.

Thanks.

Insert: As for what armies I play; I either play a Magic Heavy Teclis list w/ White Lions + Caradryan + 3x RBTs, a Star Dragon list with BSB w/ Battle Banner + DPs + Chariots + 4x RBT, or my Dwarf Lord list with 3x Cannons, 2x BTs, 2x Organ Guns. (we're a pretty competitive bunch of guys)

Seville
22-03-2009, 19:15
As with just about any intarwebz forum discussion, I think there is a lot of hyperbole and exaggeration going on in regards to the Vampire Counts. They're pretty tough, but I personally have not had too much of a problem beating them.

Sorry I'm not exactly answering your question. I guess I am saying I think they are overrated. Now, Demons, on the other hand... :)

EvC
22-03-2009, 19:50
It's the magic phase. Raising troops is more points efficient than simply buying them in the first place, thus the stronger the magic phase, the stronger the army. Look at some of Malorian's battle reports for an idea, it's especially notable that when he changed from a 15 power dice summonhorde to a 9 power dice combat list, he had trouble. Combined with very nice magic movement spell that can be guaranteed on multiple casters and recast and you have a lot of potential.

You can also make the most potent and unkillable regenerating deathstars but every army has the odd really silly build.

Monsterzonk
22-03-2009, 20:07
VCs are pretty hard in the magic phase. They can raise troops and replenish wounds with low complexity spells they can cast over and over again in the same magic phase using one PD for each try. Ouch.

Their characters are also pretty hard in combat, with very high WS and I and above average S, T and A.

Now if you play HE, you shouldn't have too many problems dealing with them. Teclis is awesome countering their magic and getting through some spells himself thanks to his special rules. The one HE spell that REALLY hurts VC is Drain Magic. Cast it once, maybe twice, and off goes their ability to cast effective spells with one PD only. Priceless!
I once used a HE force led by an Archmage with the Vortex Shard. VC hate that. Wait until their forces are in place to be propelled into combat in the magic phase using Vanhels Danse Macabre (affected unit may move/charge 8", may be cast more than once per magic phase), and then simply end their magic phase before they can get their troops into combat. Then countercharge with Lions or Sword Masters.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Monsterzonk :skull:

Rubicon
22-03-2009, 20:55
I'm increasingly coming to think that VC aren't overpowered in the slightest. It's an eggs in basket army, that basket being the General.

Kill the general when you are facing VC and you win.

Now, that general could be hidden behind hordes of Zombies, or be Ethereal or surrounded by regenerating blood knight, but it's only only one model with 3 wounds, and if you can take them all off in one turn, then you are half way there.

wizuriel
22-03-2009, 21:55
their magic phase is brutal. With recasting spells they are pretty much guaranteed to get that charge off or replenish their troops. ALso having things like regen working against crumbling wounds makes them very hard to get rid of. Their magic is also pretty cheap for their cost since I see alot of people max out on it than skimp on core units (than use magic to create the core units they need).

Kahadras
22-03-2009, 22:04
I agree with what's been said about the VC magic phase. It's OK if you're prepared for it but going up against a well setup VC army can be a nightmare if you don't see it comming. The main problem is spam casting which holds no real risk to the caster and can make units pretty big pretty quickly. Amies that get access to a decent magic defence such as Dwaves or High Elves can give them a hard time but otherwise you can quickly find yourself in trouble.

Kahadras

Chainaxe07
22-03-2009, 22:07
I find it quite odd that VCs are considered a powerful army.
Their characters lack endurance and bite (pun intended), and almost every army has access to one or more means to kill their general in a couple turns (spells, characters, monsters, war engines and simple combat resolution), and when you kill him you got the game in the bag.
Round here, after a very brief burst of exitement when the book was released, nobody seems to play VCs anymore. Demons are by far the most popular army, gun heavy dwarves a close second and lizardmen are rapidly rising to the top.

swarmofseals
22-03-2009, 22:14
The most powerful thing about the VC is their magic. It's possible for a VC player to get 18 power dice in a 2k point game, maybe more. Unless you yourself have a TON of magic to dispel that with (or use high elves + book of hoeth to cast some drain magic), the VC player is going to be able to put a lot of new models on the table each turn.

He'll tarpit your units with hordes of easily replenished zombies and then smash you with his hard hitting units -- black knights, blood knights, varghulf etc.

Vanhel's will allow his units to charge much further than you might expect, and gives bonuses in close combat on top of that.

Yes, you can get to his general... but that is awfully hard when he's buried in a large bunker of grave guard who regenerate thanks to the drakenhoff banner. Good luck killing them quickly enough to get to the general, especially given that they'll be raised back every turn. In order to even get to that deathstar you will have to first chew through a ton of zombies who are surrounding the grave guard on all sides.

VCs can catch you off guard with how effective some of their units can be in CC too -- vanhels'd ghouls will be striking first with 2 poisoned attacks, rerolling misses. Alternately, his units might be striking at WS7 thanks to the helm of command.

Multiple Corpse Carts with balefire can really shut down enemy magic too, giving you -2 or worse to all of your casting rolls.

EDIT: Characters lack endurance and bite? 7WS, 5T, 1+AS, 4+ Ward, regeneration, possibly immune to killing blow and poison lacks endurance? Infinite Hatred (reroll misses in every round of combat), Red Fury (extra attack for every unsaved wound), and Beguile (reroll failed wounds unless target passes ld test with -3 modifier) + Dreadlance (lance, autohits, obviously wouldn't use with infinite hatred) or Frostblade (unsaved wound = dead model) or Blood Drinker (successful wounds restore wounds to bearer or bearer's unit), or even Balefire spike (flaming attacks) ... striking with 4 base attacks at S7... that lacks bite? I mean, sure it's not the killyest or most defensive character in the game, but I'd hardly say it lacks endurance and bite!

Chainaxe07
22-03-2009, 22:43
EDIT: Characters lack endurance and bite? 7WS, 5T, 1+AS, 4+ Ward, regeneration, possibly immune to killing blow and poison lacks endurance? Infinite Hatred (reroll misses in every round of combat), Red Fury (extra attack for every unsaved wound), and Beguile (reroll failed wounds unless target passes ld test with -3 modifier) + Dreadlance (lance, autohits, obviously wouldn't use with infinite hatred) or Frostblade (unsaved wound = dead model) or Blood Drinker (successful wounds restore wounds to bearer or bearer's unit), or even Balefire spike (flaming attacks) ... striking with 4 base attacks at S7... that lacks bite? I mean, sure it's not the killyest or most defensive character in the game, but I'd hardly say it lacks endurance and bite!
No magic item or power confers regeneration, except maybe a banner that he cant take by himself(!!!).A 3w character with "just" a 4+ward save, compared to most other armies out there (yes, even most of those considered "underpowered") means he lacks endurance.
As for bite, well he can kill better than a human general, but every hight elf, tomb king, ogre, black orc, dwarf lord, chaos mortal, greater demon and lizardmen lord will chop him to bits without breaking a sweat.
So, in short, yes: they lack endurance and bite.

Kalec
22-03-2009, 22:47
Vamps can get 3 pd per hero, 6 for their lord, 1 from a magic item, and 2 base for 18 max I believe, along with bonuses to cast from bloodline powers and the skull staff, though only the lord has access to these and MotBA and dark acolyte. Add in the scepter of noirot for more zombies and corpse carts for more productive IoN spamming, and you have a lot of summoning power. However, it is more effective to run with a few less pd so your hero vamps can raise your foot troops over their max unit size.

swarmofseals
22-03-2009, 23:00
No magic item or power confers regeneration, except maybe a banner that he cant take by himself(!!!).A 3w character with "just" a 4+ward save, compared to most other armies out there (yes, even most of those considered "underpowered") means he lacks endurance.
As for bite, well he can kill better than a human general, but every hight elf, tomb king, ogre, black orc, dwarf lord, chaos mortal, greater demon and lizardmen lord will chop him to bits without breaking a sweat.
So, in short, yes: they lack endurance and bite.

Yes, I am assuming you are putting your general in a grave guard bunker with the drakenhoff banner here.

As to the rest, unless you want to suggest some specific builds that you are referring to I'm going to go ahead and assume you are using hyperbole. Like I said, I know that other lords out there are more killy and tougher to kill -- but the difference isn't that huge, and a lot of those lords aren't level 3/4 mages to boot.

Darkangeldentist
22-03-2009, 23:11
For me the most overpowered thing about Vampires is that you can bring stuff back. The magic phase can be turned to focus solely on making sure any damage done to the army is healed and ignored. If the vampires don't have to heal stuff back to starting strength it can still be turned to more straightforward aid.

In the past Vampires had a problem because the elite units were just like everybody elses. If they died that was that. Now if even 1 member of the unit surivives it can be raised back to full strength. VC also now has a number of elite units that can kill stuff effectively without character support. So they no longer have to risk those all important characters if they want to deal out any damage either.

The combination of raising, healing and more straightforward magic alongside a good variety of units whose uses range from tarpitting to deathstar destruction makes them very scary. Particularly when you finally take fear and terror into consideration.

In the end though it's that fact that unless it's properly dead and gone, you've no guarrentee it won't come back just as strong and deadly as when it was deployed. (If not bigger too.)

Chainaxe07
22-03-2009, 23:23
Yes, I am assuming you are putting your general in a grave guard bunker with the drakenhoff banner here.

As to the rest, unless you want to suggest some specific builds that you are referring to I'm going to go ahead and assume you are using hyperbole. Like I said, I know that other lords out there are more killy and tougher to kill -- but the difference isn't that huge, and a lot of those lords aren't level 3/4 mages to boot.


That the difference is not that huge is...well a point of view.
As good as mine, of course.
That he is a lvel 3/4 magic user wont help him much in terms of endurance and killyness.
All the guys in my group quit vampires as they got their generals sistematically killed early on, pretty much losing the battle.
I have to say, however, that they all went for fairly combat oriented armies, and actually committed their generals (a tactical error if you ask me when you suffer from the "undead" rule) if they thought they could pull it out (most times they did not).
I suppose the problem is that most players in my group like killy armies, rather than magic heavy tarpits.
The new book no longer fits the bill for that kind of play, that's why they got left behind, mostly in favour of WoC and Demons.

theunwantedbeing
22-03-2009, 23:39
A vampire counts army doesnt "need" the ability to heal.
That's why they are considered to be so good.

swarmofseals
23-03-2009, 00:07
That the difference is not that huge is...well a point of view.
As good as mine, of course.
That he is a lvel 3/4 magic user wont help him much in terms of endurance and killyness.
All the guys in my group quit vampires as they got their generals sistematically killed early on, pretty much losing the battle.
I have to say, however, that they all went for fairly combat oriented armies, and actually committed their generals (a tactical error if you ask me when you suffer from the "undead" rule) if they thought they could pull it out (most times they did not).
I suppose the problem is that most players in my group like killy armies, rather than magic heavy tarpits.
The new book no longer fits the bill for that kind of play, that's why they got left behind, mostly in favour of WoC and Demons.

I see what you are saying here. Yeah, if the VC player uses his general offensively and runs out trying to kill enemy combat characters, he's probably not going to do that well. Honestly, the most powerful way to play your vampire lord is to stick him in a grave guard bunker along with a champion and at least one other character. That way, any unit that actually manages to cut through the zombies and charge your grave guard will have a tough time actually getting to your lord. If it's an individual mounted character or greater demon attacking, you either accept the challenge with the unit champ or challenge with your unit champ. If an enemy unit with its own champ attacks you, you might have to throw your second character under the bus for a turn until you can start forcing his killy character to fight your champion. Remember, you raise that champion from the dead every turn =)

phoenixlaw
23-03-2009, 00:11
Recasting Vanhels is powerful. Wraiths are also powerful, but it is the magic phase that puts them over the top.

LKHERO
23-03-2009, 02:41
I heard something about the Drakenhoff banner in a group of Black Knights (KB, Move through cover) w/ a BSB Wight King to be really deadly? Is that some form of staple unit or something for VC?

Baron Von Rotten
23-03-2009, 03:08
Yes, Invocation is a powerful thing. But let us put it in perspective. You are raising up d6 models with a "goblins" Stat line. Most models that are brought back are WS2 skellies or ghouls, both of which are str 3. Whoa, thats not too scary.

All the heavy-hitters/ killers are brought back one wound at a time.

Kulgur
23-03-2009, 03:20
Yes, Invocation is a powerful thing. But let us put it in perspective. You are raising up d6 models with a "goblins" Stat line. Most models that are brought back are WS2 skellies or ghouls, both of which are str 3. Whoa, thats not too scary.

All the heavy-hitters/ killers are brought back one wound at a time.

Unlike Goblins they never break and cause fear, remember what happens if you lose combat to a fear causing enemy that outnumbers. Also if the unit is large enough it can lose combat repeatedly and suffer nothing more then casualties which can be recouped with ease next magic phase.

Baron Von Rotten
23-03-2009, 03:58
Yes, these are all valid points.

I was merely trying to state that the raised units were not going to win combat by doing a tremendous amount of wounds to their opponent........

In fact if they do A wound, it should be considered a minor miracle!!

rocdocta
23-03-2009, 04:09
VC are so powerful, as they can not only heal the damage, and claim table quarters with 4 raise zombies spells, they can just stop your plan.

they charge in and now they are exposed to a terrible flank attack@! no. they just spam raise zombies to safely divert you away.

zombvies are the key to winning with VC. example: i saw 4 juggernaughts hugging an impassable terrain piece. when they were about to clear it, i raised 6 zombies on their flank and he let it thru. i magic moved them into the flank of the juggers. he laughed and thought it would be an easy 50 VPs. i then spammed inoke at them till they were now 26 strong! those juggers never moved again and held his whole battle line up. this allowed my lord on a dragon to assault at will.

disruption wins battle for me. make the enemy do what i want them to. ihave lost count how many fanatics that i have drawn out with a raise dead. or frenzied cav/minotaur unit lured into a forest. i dont use the helm, regen, or other cheesy things. in fact i only use 7 power dice. for a laugh i took a 4 power dice list (2250 points) and came first out of 20 players.

the_under_empire_clan
23-03-2009, 04:14
ill agree for the most part vc, arent that good yet im a skaven player so they can get quite bothersome. no ones thinks that vc, is the best army just a tough one to break,specially for skaven

Darkspear
23-03-2009, 05:23
Personally, the thing about VC is not just that they can heal but they heal far more easily now.

With the silly one dice spam (which in my opinion should be banned), VC armies can easily replenished all their lost troops in one turn (unless the unit was completely destroy previously...which is rare for stuff like wrights and vampire knights).

To make things worse, they have pretty tough vampires (some of the best fighters of the game), crazy troops like spirit hosts and wraiths that are immune to all non-magical attacks yet and damn hard hitting.

In my opinion, VC armies are worst than gunlines, it is even more luck based (casting a healing spell requires a 4+ which is 50% for 1 die). In my gaming group, no one bothers to kill VC troops anymore, we just go for the general. If the general manage to survive whatever we throw at it...the non-VC player loses. Simple as that.

VC army in my opinion: Boring for both players. The only way to improve the quality of gameplay is to stop casting healing spells with 1 die...a temptation few VC players can resist.

fubukii
23-03-2009, 05:54
i would like to add that graveguard are not goblin statlines are are rather good in cc, and raise d6 at a time :)

Volker the Mad Fiddler
23-03-2009, 07:53
The answer is this- Vampires live and die by the magic phase. In a tournament setting they are very strong because the majority of the armies cannot handle their magic phase [and combat advantages it brings] without special preparation. In campaigns, one off battles with known opponents, etc. [basically anytime an opponent can tailor an army list to face them] they are significantly weaker.

In short, Vampires fight best when building a list to take advantage of their strengths, while to fight effectively against them, most opponents have to build a list which will negate the VCs strengths rather than building to their own.

Raverrn
23-03-2009, 15:26
Vampiric Powers. Sure, why not let Heroes take 100 points of gear? It'll be fun!
The ability to restore damages units and make new ones.
Units never flee. Combine this with above and you can tie up almost any unit for an entire game.
Vanhel's - Combined with above, you can tie up any unit your opponent plays, for the entire game, for only a few power dice
Ethereal units - again, combined with above it just becomes stupid.
The entire army causes fear. Seriously, the whole army.
A large amount of Killing Blow.


The amount of board control a VC army has is absolutely immense and anyone who claims they're not head and shoulders above everyone else (with the exception of daemons, maybe) is either dumb or looking at the old codex.

EvC
23-03-2009, 15:26
Yes, Invocation is a powerful thing. But let us put it in perspective. You are raising up d6 models with a "goblins" Stat line. Most models that are brought back are WS2 skellies or ghouls, both of which are str 3. Whoa, thats not too scary.

It's only worth putting into perspective if you can be objective about it. Skellies have the stats of Goblins pretty much (except for the massive advantage of not running away), whilst Ghouls are pretty much identical to an Orc with two choppas (except they have poison rather than +1S in first round of combat). Raising up a bunch of Orcs with double choppas... sounds a bit more tasty when you put it that way, doesn't it?

...and this isn't even getting started on Grave Guard, as fubukii mentions. Of course, if you only consider the weak parts of the VC list, then it won't seem overly strong. If people play combat lists, with Skeletons rather than Ghouls, not many power dice, no regenerating blocks of Wights, it's actually rather balanced (Still damn strong, but not in a whiny way).

Rydmend
23-03-2009, 16:10
I agree they are pretty hard but as alot of others have said it is heavily dependand on them having a good magic phase. This leaves them open to certain armies with good magic defense and a heck of a lot of despell dice.

My lizardmen list I use against my friends VC list has 9 dispell dice and 2 Dscrolls along with becalming cogitation so I can throw out his generals 6's. Considering he has 15 PD spells still get through but on a much more managable scale. (I realize that not all armies have the ability to take 9 DD buT taking as many as you can is the best bet)

Fear or terror causeing units are also key to fighting VC, if you deny them the ability to fear you to death with outnumbering you're one step ahead. I usually take stegadons and Cold one riders to minimize the amount of fear tests I'm taking.

Voodoo Boyz
23-03-2009, 17:47
Fubukii and EVC put it right.

Skellies are WS2, 4+ Armor, S3...except when the Helm of Commandment is nearby, then they're WS7, 4+ armor, and are bringing a static res of 5 or more.

They march 8" and have reliable, recastable magic movement to charge another 8" - moving as fast as good heavy cavalry.

This is of course, just Skellies, which hardly anyone takes instead of Ghouls, who are WS3, S3, 2A, with Poison.

And as far as "all eggs in one basket" or "kill the Lord", clearly you people aren't playing against players that put their super-casty VC Lord in the unit behind the large block (of regenerating grave guard, or just a big block in general) so it's near impossible to get to the actual lord?

BTW, was it mentioned that none of the spells require LOS to cast? Nor do you need LOS to use the Helm? You don't even need a Ward save on your general when he's never going to be engaged in the first place.

CaliforniaGamer
23-03-2009, 18:28
Vampiric Powers. Sure, why not let Heroes take 100 points of gear? It'll be fun!
The ability to restore damages units and make new ones.
Units never flee. Combine this with above and you can tie up almost any unit for an entire game.
Vanhel's - Combined with above, you can tie up any unit your opponent plays, for the entire game, for only a few power dice
Ethereal units - again, combined with above it just becomes stupid.
The entire army causes fear. Seriously, the whole army.
A large amount of Killing Blow.


The amount of board control a VC army has is absolutely immense and anyone who claims they're not head and shoulders above everyone else (with the exception of daemons, maybe) is either dumb or looking at the old codex.

Daemons are VASTLY VASTLY superior in raw power to the counts. I would also argue DEs are better due to nastly undercosted items and units.

Just comparing crumble vs. "daemonic stability" you can see how OTT DoC is.

Most armies if the general is solid and the list is strong can give the counts a challenge. Most armies will get utterly steamrolled by daemons.

Arguleon-veq
23-03-2009, 18:32
Vamp Lords are Vulnerable and dont hit hard? they get stuffed by any Orc/High Elf/Tomb King Lord? Are you serious?

Even if you throw your Vamp Lord at rock hard characters and units you can make him plenty hard enough to pull it off.

2+ Save, 4+ Ward and T5. PLUS the ability to heal, you wont find many characters more durable than that.

4 Autohitting S7 attacks, with extra attacks that also autohit at S7 for 6 Kills on almost any unit in the game even if it is WS5, T4 with a 3+ Save! I dont know if you will find ANY Lord that hits harder than that. [that is better than a Blood Thirster by the way]

Plus he can still be a Lvl3 Mage with +1 to cast his most important spell!

Vamp Lords are very much up there with the hardest hitting and most durable Lord builds but you can get BOTH in ONE build and still be a Lord level caster!

Raising T4 2S3 WS3 Poisoned attack models on a 3+ [at D6 a time] which can be EASILY boosted to -

2 S3 Poisoned Attacks
WS 6/7
Re Rolling Misses
ASF

At D6 +1 a time!

The fact that their Heros are both great casters with a great lore that they can spam AND great in combat.

They have one of the best units in the game in Wraiths, who can be healed and only really suffer against magic, which is mitigated by the fact you will probably have 7 Dispel Dice even if your not going magic heavy. Even characters with magic weapons arent a huge threat unless they do multiple wounds as they Wraiths will still smash units.

Cav that can move through Terrain.

Missile fire is next to useless against them.

Vampires are without a doubt one of the best armies out there right now, you have to take a pretty bad Vamp Lord build for him to be easily killed or be a bad player.

Malorian
23-03-2009, 18:44
I've found my vampires having a harder and harder time. Tihs is because of three main things:

-My wraiths are in danger from all the magical attacks people are taking now
-My characters are in danger from all the character killers people are taking now
-My spells aren't going off as they used to as people have learned which are the important ones to stop

I said this when they came out, eventually people will learn what makes the vampires tick and will learn their tricks. This has happened now and it is rare that you run up against an army that doesn't already have a plan on how to kill your ethereal units, don't know that IoN is no where as important as vanhels to stop, and most also have dedicated character killers.

It's not like it makes vampires weak or anything, but a vampire player just can't walk out and smash his opponents aside like he used to.

Voodoo Boyz
23-03-2009, 19:17
I've found my vampires having a harder and harder time. Tihs is because of three main things:

-My wraiths are in danger from all the magical attacks people are taking now
-My characters are in danger from all the character killers people are taking now
-My spells aren't going off as they used to as people have learned which are the important ones to stop

I said this when they came out, eventually people will learn what makes the vampires tick and will learn their tricks. This has happened now and it is rare that you run up against an army that doesn't already have a plan on how to kill your ethereal units, don't know that IoN is no where as important as vanhels to stop, and most also have dedicated character killers.

It's not like it makes vampires weak or anything, but a vampire player just can't walk out and smash his opponents aside like he used to.

Knowing that stopping Dance is much more important to stopping Invoke doesn't really matter when your lord can cast it 3-4 times reliably in a single phase if he wants (just not in turn 1)...and then you have the book.

And it's great to know that your Wraiths are much more afraid of magical attacks....that people can get on Chaos Knights, or one HE unit where the Champ/Character takes the one item to give them magic attacks, or....the regular stuff they were always vulnerable to.

About the only thing that holds true is that to beat Vamps you have to just kill their Hero's - since generally that's the only place you'll get points out of the army when it's built to win. That or whatever they took in Rare.

Oh and you generally want to make sure when you do that, you use things cheaper than they are so you can actually get a points disparity.

nick_robinsonchia
23-03-2009, 19:18
Thanks for all the summarys returning back to the game from a long break - good to read.

fubukii
23-03-2009, 19:21
i find that daemonic instability and crumbling both have thier ups and downs

For example
Daemons lose by 1 (ld6) can lose up to 6 models, or none
Vc Will lose 1 model regardless.
So the vc way is more predictable which helps him plan better.
But the advantages of instabilty are, Rerollable with bsb, and a possiblity to lose no models ( offset by the chance to lose ALOT of models though.) The main thing that makes instabilty slightly better is the reroll the bsb grants.

YTY
23-03-2009, 19:34
Vampires are not too good in lower point games.

For example, we with our friends play usually 1250 point games. At that limit, the VC player has a tough choice to made. He can't usually afford taking 3 vampires, because then he wouldnt have anything else. Hero vampires are not too good for their poits costs. Also, spamming nehek isn't so good with only 7 PD against the opponent's 3DD and scroll or 2. Vanhels is not very common when you have to throw 2 dice and hope for a 2 - so you can't rely on it either. If you manage to get vanhels with 1 of the vamps you can cast it once a turn - the opponent has usually spared his DD for this.

Against High elves, chaos and demons the core skeletons and ghouls are rubbish. They are easily wiped out leaving the vampires to crumble. To speak about crumbling, the hero vamp is easy to kill and then the whole army crumbles. Black knights don't pack enough punch without a wight king or a vampire, which you can't afford. Raising zombies with your few powerdice is a joke.

So the power of the vampires lies with the uber lords and VERY powerful magic. But in lower point games, you cant get a lord and you can't afford powerful magic. So they are just mediocre.

Malorian
23-03-2009, 19:41
Knowing that stopping Dance is much more important to stopping Invoke doesn't really matter when your lord can cast it 3-4 times reliably in a single phase if he wants (just not in turn 1)...and then you have the book.

How the hell can you say a lord can cast it 3-4 times reliably a turn plus the book?

At best your lord has 7 PD if he is a lvl 4 w/ master of the black arts and the black peript. Vanhels is a 8+ to cast so with 2 dice that's only 42% change to cast and given you only have 7 dice you could only cast it 3 times and even then it's not reliable.

Or are you loading up on powerstones?

Either way, look at the cost of that lord and then look at the cost of 4 dispel scrolls! When that critical turn comes when you need that spell to go off you can bet that your opponent is waiting for it and is prepared.

StarFyre
23-03-2009, 20:07
Just to comment, my lizardmen lords have problems facing vampire lords in combat. They hit us on 3s, wound on 2s, 3s or 4s depending on the weapon, and now we no longer have a 4+ ward save item in the new book :( the safer bet is on the vampire lord....

Sanjay

Voodoo Boyz
23-03-2009, 20:19
How the hell can you say a lord can cast it 3-4 times reliably a turn plus the book?

At best your lord has 7 PD if he is a lvl 4 w/ master of the black arts and the black peript. Vanhels is a 8+ to cast so with 2 dice that's only 42% change to cast and given you only have 7 dice you could only cast it 3 times and even then it's not reliable.

Or are you loading up on powerstones?

Either way, look at the cost of that lord and then look at the cost of 4 dispel scrolls! When that critical turn comes when you need that spell to go off you can bet that your opponent is waiting for it and is prepared.

The Vamp I'm used to playing against has:

Level 3, Forbidden Lore (Know all Spells), +2 PD power, and the Skull Staff (plus raise ghouls, other stuff, etc). Another Vamp has the Perapit, another has the Book.

3 Dice Base, +2 from the Power, +2 from the Pool, +1 from the Perapit = 8 Dice. He has +1 to cast.

And thanks to the latest round of Power Creep, Dance is cast on a 7+, not an 8+. So with the Skull Staff he casts it on a roll of a 6.

8 Dice = 4 Attempts to cast an effectively 6+ spell with two dice, and he can do this every game.

He sits in a unit, directly behind another unit, sitting and casting all game.

Voodoo Boyz
23-03-2009, 20:23
And FYI, 4 Scrolls can stop that for a turn, dice at the book. Yay that's great, he can do this EVERY TURN except the first. I also spent two of my character slots on mages now, and their entire magic item allowance on scrolls...to buy me one turn. Given that will add up to probably around 300 points or so (more if I upgrade them to be level 2's to get some utility out of that heavy points & character investment) and the VC lord should be around 400-450 or so points, and all I've done is get a piddly offense and solid defense for a turn.

Malorian
23-03-2009, 20:28
Sorry, got the cast level mixed up with gaze.

But like I said, on the turn where it actually matters you just make sure to stop those spells and then all of a sudden you are in combat with him (so who cares if he casts it after that). 4 scrolls is a LOT less expensive that that lord, and a build like that falls under the other issue of character assassination.

I think it's safe to say you play orcs Voodoo Boyz, so just put your warboss on a wyvern and give him the screaming sword. Two scroll caddies and that lord's a dead man (meaning you'll win every game).

LKHERO
23-03-2009, 20:50
Sorry, got the cast level mixed up with gaze.

But like I said, on the turn where it actually matters you just make sure to stop those spells and then all of a sudden you are in combat with him (so who cares if he casts it after that). 4 scrolls is a LOT less expensive that that lord, and a build like that falls under the other issue of character assassination.

I think it's safe to say you play orcs Voodoo Boyz, so just put your warboss on a wyvern and give him the screaming sword. Two scroll caddies and that lord's a dead man (meaning you'll win every game).

So you're basically saying that against VC, you must have a min of 2 Mages to dispel + 4x scrolls or die?

That sounds very exciting :confused:

Voodoo Boyz
23-03-2009, 20:52
Sorry, got the cast level mixed up with gaze.

But like I said, on the turn where it actually matters you just make sure to stop those spells and then all of a sudden you are in combat with him (so who cares if he casts it after that). 4 scrolls is a LOT less expensive that that lord, and a build like that falls under the other issue of character assassination.

I think it's safe to say you play orcs Voodoo Boyz, so just put your warboss on a wyvern and give him the screaming sword. Two scroll caddies and that lord's a dead man (meaning you'll win every game).


No, I play Orks in 40k (or did, when I used to play 40k). In WHFB I have Ogres & DE, and soon to have Daemons (for tourney play, see the sig).

Stopping it for one turn isn't a big deal if the VC player is smart. He can just pick off different units, or cause dances in specific areas where it can be a bad thing (Wraiths are awesome at this) - where he can put things out there that force you to stop dances without risking the whole army.

You're also ignoring the fact that you aren't assassinating this guy (as I stated previously).

He's in a unit, directly behind another unit. Both of them get nicely raised up to full strength in the first turn. You can not engage this guy to the front (to actually get B2B with the caster), only on the flanks (not actually touching the character for assassination), and honestly good luck getting there.

Malorian
23-03-2009, 21:10
LKHERO, no what I said is that people have learned that IoN means little compared to spells like vanhels. So instead of before where you'd have people blow all their dice stopping IoN, now they know to save their dice to stop vanhels. The 4 scrolls has to do with Voodoo's worry about a caster that is setup to be a vanhels spammer.


Voodoo, thus the large target flier that can see over units. Advance it with the line (so he can't just tie it up with zombies) and then zip over that unit into his bunker. With DE this means your lord on a dragon and for deamons it will mean a greater deamon.

Now the VC player can try the trick of putting the bunker right up against that unit in front thus giving no room for the dragon/greater deamon to land and thus not charge. If this is the case then this is the time that you fly to their flank, use those scrolls to shut down his vanhels, and charge him next turn.


Edit: IF you really want some fun try playing a larger game. Vampire players basically crap themselves when they are up against a dragon.... against two?... heart attack... against three?... they will pay you to be allowed to give up before the game ;)

VC Billy
23-03-2009, 23:07
Personally I think playing a 15 power dice list is cheesy, and as someone mentioned before really turns the game into kill the general or get bogged down in a war of attrition you cant hope to win. Unless you have a big flier (dragon, bloodthirster, etc). In that case the whole game turns into chase the Vamp. Lame.

So with the exception of a maxed out magic list I think the army balances it's strengths with liabilities. If the lord dies the game is over so anytime you cast a spell with two dice the game could be over. Plus, you can't ever flee, ever. This may not seem so bad when the other side of the coin is you can't ever break, but I find it hinders my ability to manipulate space on the table. It also leads to overrun issues at times. Anytime a unit can't hope to win it has no choice but to stand and be destroyed. This is made even easier with the way VC lose combat. I find this to be most problematic with wraiths and other small units without much static resolution. Heroes and lords (unless on a dragon... sometimes) can't really fight anything on their own or they die very quickly. Even fighting something like a unit of terradons with a hybrid lord can be risky given the results if you lose a couple wounds or even just get tied up there. Other lords can charge into combat without too much worry of breaking if they only lose by 1 or 2, but for a vampire lord that is disastrous.

Plus using zombies is a liability all on it's own for two reasons. First, you can't ever really use zombies to combo charge or to bring in a combat to assist as they really just give the opponent more combat resolution. This is disastrous as those crumble wounds are applied to each unit in combat. Plus each summoned unit is worth 50 points regardless of size. I think the latter is easily out weighed by the table quarters benefit, but if you find your power dice otherwise occupied on turn 6 it could come back to haunt you.

The magic phase for VC can be strong, but as all other magic it is not certain to work. This makes planning more difficult. Plus as I have covered, it can kill the lord. Also, has anyone mentioned a complete lack of shooting? And please don't mention tomb banshees as we all know that's not real shooting. Also, VC as an army is below average in cc, but I concede causing fear makes them that much better. Although, against some armies (high elves) they get owned in combat consistantly.

Protecting the lord can also be an issue. In order to give a lord a basic save you can take items or skills, but to do so limits their offense or magic capabilities. And the 4+ ward save can only be gained along with stupidity. On it's own that item has cost me more games than any other factor. It takes away an entire magic phase and usually limits the forward progress of your whole army as nothing can march unless within 6" of a vampire and the range of Van hels is only 12". 18" for invocation. I personally give mine flight (in order to avoid combat), a 3+ ward from shooting, and a 2+ basic. No matter how you do it it's a balancing act with the main goal to be not to let him die under any circumstance. Not to mention he costs around 450.

All that being said, I would agree that when played correctly VC is probably the fourth strongest list behind Daemons, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen. They also have a lot of issues with High Elves, Warriors of Chaos, Gun Lines, Deathstar armies, and anything with a lord on a flying mount. Most of what I've thrown out are just my opinions, so I know people will disagree. But hey, isn't that why we all read these threads. :)

Sorry if I seem all over the place, I've been typing this throughout the day off and on.

fubukii
23-03-2009, 23:24
oh how i love the vc general in the middle of a unit of skels behind a unit with regeneration :(

Voodoo Boyz
23-03-2009, 23:51
Voodoo, thus the large target flier that can see over units. Advance it with the line (so he can't just tie it up with zombies) and then zip over that unit into his bunker. With DE this means your lord on a dragon and for deamons it will mean a greater deamon.

Now the VC player can try the trick of putting the bunker right up against that unit in front thus giving no room for the dragon/greater deamon to land and thus not charge. If this is the case then this is the time that you fly to their flank, use those scrolls to shut down his vanhels, and charge him next turn.


Edit: IF you really want some fun try playing a larger game. Vampire players basically crap themselves when they are up against a dragon.... against two?... heart attack... against three?... they will pay you to be allowed to give up before the game ;)

Yeah, basically what I've been trying to say is that the VC player is pulling that trick where it's right up behind against the unit in front (basically that's what I've been trying to say all along, but the power of the internets isn't letting me communicate effectively, sorry. :) ).

In terms of Large Fliers, yes VC have that as an issue. However it's not nearly as much of a problem as you make it out to be - and the VC player has counters.

#1) He can set it up so that he can raise zombies and then dance them into your monster, while re-orienting himself and the blocks such that you aren't getting a flank (ie. play defensive)

#2) He can just raise a unit of Zombies on the flank for you to try and get through.

#3) He can take the proactive approach and take "Thirster Pits" which I've described in "VC Are Broken Threads" before: 7 Dire Wolves w/ Doom Wolf. Dire Wolves Charge, or move 18" and then Dance into Combat. Doom Wolf Challenges. Super Monster of Doom eats said Doom Wolf, Wolves lose combat by a maximum of 5 (6 CR from Challenge, -1 for Outnumber), so one Wolf remains tying up the big monster. That wolf dies the next turn, but you've essentially locked down the big nasty for an entire turn, when the next Thirster Pit unit can come out or preferably he's maneuvered a unit of Zombies over to tie the big nasty down for the rest of the game.

Basically that last one (#3) was developed by the VC players after the DoC book came out and Obsidian Armor Thirsters were running around like there was a Factory of the Blood God pumping them out.

Now to be honest, I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat kind of argument over this, but suffice it to say, I think I've made quite a good argument over how VC are an exceptionally powerful army, probably on the level of Daemons, or really just a rung below it. I've seen the above kind of list described take out all sorts of abomination DoC builds fairly easily, using much of the aforementioned tactics.

Even without that, just the fact that they can re-cast spells and tool out their characters to such a degree...coupled with the fact that they don't have to actually buy their ******* troops and can reliably raise them up at astonishing levels - they are a power army.

Heck just being all fear-causing-unbreakable-ItP troops with access to Magical Movement is good enough to put them over a large proportion of the WHFB playing field. And that's not counting the fact that they have pretty damn hitty units to support their supposed weak troops, and even then that's not counting broken ass items like the Drakhenoff Banner, the Helm of Commandment, or even just the REALLY GOOD items like the Periapit, Tailismen of Lycinci, or the Book.

To put it bluntly here's my point:

VC are a power army, probably the best in the game. No this is not a case of "oh wait 6 months and people will have ways to beat them". Much like Daemons, it has not been the case. It's not a case of "new army on the block", the only reason you hear less complaints about VC is because people are too busy complaining about Daemons. At least power VC armies look like normal Warhammer armies...from about the end of the VC players first magic phase anyway. ;)

fubukii
24-03-2009, 01:18
i personally think vc are equally as bad as daemons, but people just complain about daemons because more people play them.

YTY
24-03-2009, 14:41
Voodoo boyz: Did you notice that vanhels has a casting range of 12"? The vamp player can't move all of his units as much as he wants.

Also, did anyone read my other comments to the issue? Thoughts about them?

fubukii
24-03-2009, 15:11
your right YTY he can only move units within 12 inches of one of his vanhels casters. Which im sure its 4 mages, with at least 1 vanhels lord, maybe 1 hero with it and the book. granted now all the important units are near the lord and thats when the counter charge happens but sure i guess some remote units far away from the lord that are probably fast and have the vampire rule, may be unable to vanhels the majority of his army ( the 4 chars and his pricey units and his bunkers) are all gonna be near the lord so he can keep them alive. If not your playing a iffy vc player.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 15:27
Since when did I say that the lord doesn't march halfway up the board, just staying directly behind the block in front of him?

Really, as it's been pointed out, the only thing he's very afraid of are flying large targets - where the VC player has ways that they can be dealt with as well.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 15:31
The other new threat is the new armies with lots of attacks. Both spear saurus and chaos warriors can kill faster than you can raise.

Basically when faced with these armies raising VC armies have to hold back unless they want to be slaughtered.


So add this to my initial list:

-My wraiths are in danger from all the magical attacks people are taking now
-My characters are in danger from all the character killers people are taking now
-My spells aren't going off as they used to as people have learned which are the important ones to stop
-My ghouls are now being killed off faster than I can raise them by the new 'killy' armies

(Again just to be clear, I'm not saying VC is weak, I'm just saying they aren't overpowered.)

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 15:41
The other new threat is the new armies with lots of attacks. Both spear saurus and chaos warriors can kill faster than you can raise.

Basically when faced with these armies raising VC armies have to hold back unless they want to be slaughtered.


So add this to my initial list:

-My wraiths are in danger from all the magical attacks people are taking now
-My characters are in danger from all the character killers people are taking now
-My spells aren't going off as they used to as people have learned which are the important ones to stop
-My ghouls are now being killed off faster than I can raise them by the new 'killy' armies

(Again just to be clear, I'm not saying VC is weak, I'm just saying they aren't overpowered.)

You mean those blocks of M4 infantry that have lots of attacks?

Since when is any VC player letting those things get into combat with anything substantial, in the front no less?

And in the case of LM - all it takes is a flank charge (from your blocks that can march 8, and then dance 8) and there goes a massive amount of points.

If you're playing against a WoC list that is taking a mega unit of Warriors (or likely, Chosen) and using Warshrines to buff them to insane levels - you just carefully divert the block away from you and not fight it/kill the rest of the army.

Really if you want to talk about a weakness VC have against WoC, it's because their magic items are so good, there are rarely scrolls in the list - which means they have a hard time stopping a WoC list built around getting Infernal Gateway off.

In terms of VC not being overpowered, I couldn't disagree more.

This is like me trying to say that Daemons aren't overpowered since they're weak against good shooting.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 16:04
It's not like you alway can just avoid something and when it's infantry heavy it also usually means their flanks are covered.

Lets take this list as an example:

Scarvet w/ piranha blade, light armor, shield, bane head
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
10 skirmishing skinks
10 skirmishing skinks
10 skirmishing skinks

This is less than 2K, has 7 spear blocks and a character that will see your wraiths disappear in a second (or one of your characters if it's left in the front).

Now a vampire player might at fist go "What?!?! No magic defense?!?!? Man I'm goign to kill this idiot." Then he gets into combat....

With a line like that you are not getting around him and even though your blocks might be bumped up to the max by the time he gets to you, once he gets to you it's a different story.

A spear unit fighting a ghoul unit, lets says the ghouls have ASF. They get 11 attacks and from that kill 1.25 saurus. In return the spears have 18 attacks and from that kill 4.5 ghouls, and depending on how that .5 goes more ghouls crumble.

Now keep in mind that you are now engaged across the board and you have these losses to heal from ALL your units. So on the VC turn he heals and then has to go through TWO combats before he can heal again. AND if the lizardmen opponent can find a way to link those combats then it gets even worse as your crumbling basically doubles.

Now that list I put up is extreme, but if you make it more realistic and drop it to 3-4 units and add supporting units and magic defense it just gets worse for the vampire player.

Phazael
24-03-2009, 16:08
The VC power boils down to three things:

1) Spammable one die spell that creates troops-
Without a doubt, the most ridiculously powerful thing in the book, as it requires a specific magical defense to even remotely counter. It also facilitates army builds that begin the game with half the troops they end it with. Toss in the fact that they can raise their unit champs every turn, and the casters are stupidly well protected.

2) Undercosted movement spell-
Every other spell that allows movement requires at LEAST 9+ to cast, while Van Hels goes off on a 7+, complete with a secondary effect. Its also spamable and available in bound form. This is the single worst facet of the list, as you basically have to assume you will be flanked at every turn, at least by zombies.

3) Helm of Comandment-
Chewing through a regenerating GG unit with the Banner of Barrows wouldn't be quite so ridiculous if they were not also WS7. This unit can get bricked in on all sides and lose barely two Invocations worth of troops, thanks to this item. That is just one of its many uses. In an army where you have every incentive to keep the general out of combat and low statline is supposed to be the drawback, this one item is just plain too good. On regenerating GG or wraith spam, its outright broken.

I maintain that a well build VC list is superior to the other two power armies (DoC and DE), but most people simply do not run the two main builds. Really, before Infernal Gateway delivery systems started winning some tournaments, VC were dominating the battle point ratings in rescent GTs, especially Baltimore.

Mireadur
24-03-2009, 16:18
Now if you play HE, you shouldn't have too many problems dealing with them. Teclis is awesome countering their magic and getting through some spells himself thanks to his special rules. The one HE spell that REALLY hurts VC is Drain Magic. Cast it once, maybe twice, and off goes their ability to cast effective spells with one PD only. Priceless!
I once used a HE force led by an Archmage with the Vortex Shard. VC hate that. Wait until their forces are in place to be propelled into combat in the magic phase using Vanhels Danse Macabre (affected unit may move/charge 8", may be cast more than once per magic phase), and then simply end their magic phase before they can get their troops into combat. Then countercharge with Lions or Sword Masters.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Monsterzonk :skull:

This statement is funny, you mean as HE shouldnt have trouble always that you load up on wizards and dirty item tricks?

Do you realize VC somehow forces you to play that way? It appears most dont notice (or dont want to) this.

For the OP: that is the real reason VC is overpowered, it forces you to play with very specific lists to face them. (spam raise, magic items, v. powers and undercosted units here and there are the specifical).

Malorian
24-03-2009, 16:24
I wouldn't say it forces you to play with specific lists, just that it forces you to change your idea of an all comers list.

Before you''re chances of playing VC in a tournament were fairly low so you didn't need to worry about and and thus your all comers list could concentrate on ways to stop things liks stanks, dragons, and SAD armies.

Now that VC is mroe common you just need to change your list to have magic weapons and a character killer. (The rest depends on your army.)

The list will still be good against all other armies, it just has been changed to reflect the increased number of VC armies.

For example in my orc army I changed it up to have a unit of savage orc boyz with spears to slice away a VC horde and changed a hero to be ready to deal with ethereal units. That's it... 90% of the list didn't change at all.

Mireadur
24-03-2009, 16:50
Malorian, your explanation is just supporting what im saying, i never negated the lists that vc forces you to play with are bad, just said it forces you to use them.

You forgot to mention loading up on magic defence anyway. Not easy to beat vc (unless their player really really suck) if hes spamming IoN freely.

edit: an all comers list, by my definition, is any kind of list you feel like playing that evening :p. Should not be something set in stone either.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 16:57
Well I'm just trying to be clear that it's not like you have to design every single element of your army to be anti-VC. You just need to make sure that certain elements are there (like how you take warmachines to ward off dragons and stanks) as part of your all comers check list.

And you don't need magic defense to spot IoN spamming. Anyone trying to get enough dice to stop 14+ worth of one dice IoN spamming is a fool. Either go the cost effective way and take the staff of sorcery, or better yet just take more troops.

Ghouls and skeletons are still outclassed by other infantry in combat (you can only helm one unit) and all the VC opponent has to do is try to engage as much of the VC army at once so that the casters can't keep up with the raising.

Mireadur
24-03-2009, 17:12
I actually was thinking in only 7-9PD IoN spam. Theres no need to cast it over 2 times a turn once CC begins.

I guess the kind of CC you consider are just mega killy units which can take 6-10 skeletons down a turn?... Certainly the 2 newest armies are the only ones able to do and maintain this over the CC turns.

I must differ with you in 1 thing though: Ghouls are outclassed by very few things in game when you add IoN, van hells and corpse carts to their already insane stats and abilities.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 17:22
I actually was thinking in only 7-9PD IoN spam. Theres no need to cast it over 2 times a turn once CC begins.

I guess the kind of CC you consider are just mega killy units which can take 6-10 skeletons down a turn?... Certainly the 2 newest armies are the only ones able to do and maintain this over the CC turns.

I must differ with you in 1 thing though: Ghouls are outclassed by very few things in game when you add IoN, van hells and corpse carts to their already insane stats and abilities.

If the VC player stopped casting IoN once in combat then something has gone wrong.

In combat either you will have the killy units that can kill a good number of your ghouls, or you will have the cheaper units that can afford to have more units than you and flank.

Add to this that your opponents characters can safely join the fight and add to the killing toll while your caster have to hide or get killed.

Once in combat your opponent will know to stop those carts and stop vanhels and ignore IoN unless it's an easy stop or in a critical combat.

YTY
24-03-2009, 17:24
Yes, you may need to modify your list against A INVOSPAM+VANHELSSPAM VAMPIRE LIST, but did you notice that if the vampire player is not trying to spam invocation and vanhels you can easily use an all-comers -list. So you don't have to tune like that against vampires in general but against vampires spamming those 2 spells with insane amount of PD.

Now we come to the second point. You are not saying that every vampire list is built like that but that's what I can read from your posts. So you are saying that you must make a strong counterlist which uses units mentioned before to win any vampire list. That is like saying that HE in general are overpowered because you can't win games against a two dragon list without tailoring you own list heavily. Every vampire list does not have a 6PD generating lord, three vampires and a long list of bound spells.

"But every vamp list in tourney has them." OK, that's a valid point. But in tourneys everyone should already know that all the vampire lists are like that. And take a list that does well against them. If you know that most of your opponents in a local tourney are using Bretts, Dwarfs, Ogres, Orcs, Empire and Wood elves, you of course are not going to take a lot of magic defense.

I still say, and nobody has commented anything against this, that vampires are certainly NOT overpowered in below than 2k games. In 2k or larger games they are powerful if you use the boring spamlist. Think it this way: Your opponent is using a same old cheesy list in every game. That does not make the army he uses overpowered. You have two different things to do:
1. Talk to him and ask him to make a more friendly list.
2. Tailor you own list against him and use it until he wants to change his list.

Mireadur
24-03-2009, 18:19
Yes, you may need to modify your list against A INVOSPAM+VANHELSSPAM VAMPIRE LIST, but did you notice that if the vampire player is not trying to spam invocation and vanhels you can easily use an all-comers -list. So you don't have to tune like that against vampires in general but against vampires spamming those 2 spells with insane amount of PD.

No, dont get me wrong buddy, im always talking of just 7-9pd lists. I would never consider including more than that as i tend to find magic really unfunny and unstrategical (maybe the fact i tend to miscast 2-5 times a game has also something to do with it :p)

I had written a long ass post with responses but its just pointless, this has been debated way too many times :p

However ill always find amazing how reflective players (looking at malorian) still argue about VC's balance :)

YTY
24-03-2009, 18:30
The point here is that even if most players in tourneys use the cheese list it does not make the whole army OP.

Nuff said from me to this topic.

PS. I'm not a vampire player.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 18:32
However ill always find amazing how reflective players (looking at malorian) still argue about VC's balance :)

They are a strong army but I refuse to class them as overpowered.

I said from the very beginning that VC would start off tough but then people would figure out the tricks and it wouldn't be so bad, and it has come true.

I think many players that complain about VC would do well to try a couple games out on the VC side and:

-Feel like their lord is a prisoner forced to hide from character killers and run like a girl from dragons.
-Watch as their hammers are shot to pieces before you can raise them and then basically have to sit there and raise as your opponent beats on you.
-Watch your 350 point unit of wraiths get torn apart by one cheap hero.

People have learned the weaknesses of VC and a vampire general can no longer go into games assuming he can pull the wool over his opponent's eyes for an easy win.

O&G'sRule
24-03-2009, 18:53
The other new threat is the new armies with lots of attacks. Both spear saurus and chaos warriors can kill faster than you can raise.

Basically when faced with these armies raising VC armies have to hold back unless they want to be slaughtered.


So add this to my initial list:

-My wraiths are in danger from all the magical attacks people are taking now
-My characters are in danger from all the character killers people are taking now
-My spells aren't going off as they used to as people have learned which are the important ones to stop
-My ghouls are now being killed off faster than I can raise them by the new 'killy' armies

(Again just to be clear, I'm not saying VC is weak, I'm just saying they aren't overpowered.)

I played a VC army recently with a WoC army and by the end of turn 2 his army was 4 times the size of what he started with. You can certainly raise faster than theyre killed

Malorian
24-03-2009, 18:58
I played a VC army recently with a WoC army and by the end of turn 2 his army was 4 times the size of what he started with. You can certainly raise faster than theyre killed

Yes, when they are not in combat :rolleyes:

Once you get those units in combat with your warriors/knights it's a totally different story.

Ghouls and skeletons have almost no chance against WS5 T4 and a 2+ save. They just don't have the punch to do anything and will keep getting cut down.

O&G'sRule
24-03-2009, 19:13
Well he had the regenerate banner on one unit of skeles(that was about 40 strong at that point) and the vampire had made them WS6, Blood knights are better than chaos knights, so, although we were carving through them, it wasn't really fast enough to get any victory points. Throgg with his unit of 9 trolls spent the whole game running into one zombie unit after another, so couldn't lend their weight to the real battle and obviously thats a chunk of my army.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 19:40
Yeah... you know those 30 point units of hounds?... blood knights aren't all that great when they are hit in the flank by chaos knights...

Regenerate banner can be a pain, and if he's going total deathstar then I give you permission to slap him ;) Or give your lord the hellfire sword and go BSB hunting :D

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 19:42
It's not like you alway can just avoid something and when it's infantry heavy it also usually means their flanks are covered.

Lets take this list as an example:

Scarvet w/ piranha blade, light armor, shield, bane head
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
10 skirmishing skinks
10 skirmishing skinks
10 skirmishing skinks

This is less than 2K, has 7 spear blocks and a character that will see your wraiths disappear in a second (or one of your characters if it's left in the front).

Now a vampire player might at fist go "What?!?! No magic defense?!?!? Man I'm goign to kill this idiot." Then he gets into combat....

With a line like that you are not getting around him and even though your blocks might be bumped up to the max by the time he gets to you, once he gets to you it's a different story.

A spear unit fighting a ghoul unit, lets says the ghouls have ASF. They get 11 attacks and from that kill 1.25 saurus. In return the spears have 18 attacks and from that kill 4.5 ghouls, and depending on how that .5 goes more ghouls crumble.

Now keep in mind that you are now engaged across the board and you have these losses to heal from ALL your units. So on the VC turn he heals and then has to go through TWO combats before he can heal again. AND if the lizardmen opponent can find a way to link those combats then it gets even worse as your crumbling basically doubles.

Now that list I put up is extreme, but if you make it more realistic and drop it to 3-4 units and add supporting units and magic defense it just gets worse for the vampire player.

Wow, something with seven units of Saurus blocks. Because that's something you'll absolutely see and will be able to deal with VC and all the other overpowered lists you will see in the game.

You have one M4 character that can hurt Wraiths.
Wraiths Skirmish
Wraiths March 12 and then another 8" with dance.
Banshee screams completely screw units as well.

Wraiths can break through a single unit easily off on a flank.

Once the Saurus get close a single block can smash through your line thanks to the Helm of Commandment (Saurus hit on 5's). All they need to do is win by 1 and you auto-break.

I still don't see exactly how you're seeing this as some kind of In fact, lets look at your own example:



A spear unit fighting a ghoul unit, lets says the ghouls have ASF. They get 11 attacks and from that kill 1.25 saurus. In return the spears have 18 attacks and from that kill 4.5 ghouls, and depending on how that .5 goes more ghouls crumble.

First off, you're charging? Congrats, you get 12 attacks, not 24. Spears only fight from the second rank in the subsequent rounds of combat or when charged.

Lets not even assume the VC player is using the Helm in this example.

Ghouls ASF - kill 1.5 Saurus. Lets Round Down, and say they kill one. 5 Saurus attack back:

10 Attacks * Half Hit * Half Wound = 2.5 Dead Ghouls

Ghouls have 3 Ranks + Outnumber + 1 Kill = 5 CR
Saurus have 2 Ranks + Std + 2.5 Dead Ghouls = 5.5 CR

Best case scenario you win by 1 or two, Ghouls lose 1-2 models. How exactly is this not manageable or easily replenishable losses?

If the VC player uses the Helm of Commandment, the Saurus will not only lose the combat, but auto-break from Fear/Outnumber.

Seriously you have to be kidding me with this kind of list.

All it takes is ONE unit of Zombies at an odd angle raised in front of a few blocks and your whole "line" is in disarray or a block is about to get flanked and you're out 200+ points and another 100 for the banner.

Heaven help you if the VC player is using the Regen/GG bunker.

He has ZERO reason to charge you, and can just sit back and cast at you, throw the Wraiths around away from your general who will subsequently never catch them. If he has Bats mixed in it's even worse because then you're being march blocked.

And this is a completely non-realistic army that would be fielded; especially at a tourney. The minute you take the "realistic" 3 Blocks (which even then is probably not very realistic), they become even easier to maneuver around, march block, and eventually flank with Magic Movement.

Phazael
24-03-2009, 19:58
The invospamming is a problem, even in moderate lists. Consider an 8 PD list (fairly moderate by VC standards) against a typical moderate magic defense of 6 DD (thats a lord level caster and two pukes) with the relatively normal items and gifts involved. The VC player is going to have +1 to cast with the pukes and + 2 to cast with their lord (Staff, Gift, say he has the Lore, and PD abilities). The magic phase will go something like this:

Lord casts invocation 7 times, using up the pool and his own dice. Assuming average rolls (and that natural 1s and 2s fail) five of those are going off, all at a casting value of five or higher. Lets assume an average spread of two 5s, two 6s, and one 7. This essentially obligates the defending player to toss two dice at each one, with a good chance of failure still. The VC player now casts three times with his secondary vampire (PD and summon gift), who will get two of the three spells off (natural 2 still fails) at an average casting value of 5 or 6. The defender now has to burn two scrolls to stop this. Even in an army with two scroll caddies, the shutdown only lasts two turns, tops. This is a single Vampire Lord and one hero Vamp against what is a strong magic army. The defending player is also rolling lucky to stop three casts of invocation, while the VC player merely rolls average. Now add in a Book of Archon. Then a couple Corpse Carts. Then a third Vampire. Thats a typical vampire magic phase. Then add a fourth vampire, and you have a tournament vampire list. Any amount of summon spam completely crushes comperable magic defense, unless the magic defense is expressly tooled for VC (eg HE with the Dispel Staff and Shard), which is essentially playing with a huge handicap against a low magic list.

Saying that VC are ok because fighting vampires suck is a cop out, because no one runs more than one token fighting vampire, unless they are running the Doggie Deathstar, and even that list has four casting vampires. Summon spam is a game breaker and its made a lot of people just plain give up on running magic of their own, especially when you toss a corpse cart or two into the mix. This basically means that you need to vaporize a unit in entirety to get rid of it, which people are cranking up their lists to accomplish. Even if you do, you are only collecting the points for the 10 skeletons the unit began with, not the 80 you killed on the way to destroying it.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 20:00
Here's my question:

When was the last time you saw a competitive WoC army that had blocks of Warriors in them? Or units bigger than 10-15 guys max?

And when you did, and lets say those 1-2 units of Warriors/Chosen were in there with the things that protect them from Fear (MoS, Banner of Rage, or Rapturous Standard), did those units ACTUALLY fight anything? Not just get march blocked, redirected, and then ignored all game?

Like most WoC armies, the Knights cause most of the problems for the VC player, more than anything.

fubukii
24-03-2009, 20:03
Wow, something with seven units of Saurus blocks. Because that's something you'll absolutely see and will be able to deal with VC and all the other overpowered lists you will see in the game.

You have one M4 character that can hurt Wraiths.
Wraiths Skirmish
Wraiths March 12 and then another 8" with dance.
Banshee screams completely screw units as well.

Wraiths can break through a single unit easily off on a flank.

Once the Saurus get close a single block can smash through your line thanks to the Helm of Commandment (Saurus hit on 5's). All they need to do is win by 1 and you auto-break.

I still don't see exactly how you're seeing this as some kind of In fact, lets look at your own example:



First off, you're charging? Congrats, you get 12 attacks, not 24. Spears only fight from the second rank in the subsequent rounds of combat or when charged.

Lets not even assume the VC player is using the Helm in this example.

Ghouls ASF - kill 1.5 Saurus. Lets Round Down, and say they kill one. 5 Saurus attack back:

10 Attacks * Half Hit * Half Wound = 2.5 Dead Ghouls

Ghouls have 3 Ranks + Outnumber + 1 Kill = 5 CR
Saurus have 2 Ranks + Std + 2.5 Dead Ghouls = 5.5 CR

Best case scenario you win by 1 or two, Ghouls lose 1-2 models. How exactly is this not manageable or easily replenishable losses?

If the VC player uses the Helm of Commandment, the Saurus will not only lose the combat, but auto-break from Fear/Outnumber.

Seriously you have to be kidding me with this kind of list.

All it takes is ONE unit of Zombies at an odd angle raised in front of a few blocks and your whole "line" is in disarray or a block is about to get flanked and you're out 200+ points and another 100 for the banner.

Heaven help you if the VC player is using the Regen/GG bunker.

He has ZERO reason to charge you, and can just sit back and cast at you, throw the Wraiths around away from your general who will subsequently never catch them. If he has Bats mixed in it's even worse because then you're being march blocked.

And this is a completely non-realistic army that would be fielded; especially at a tourney. The minute you take the "realistic" 3 Blocks (which even then is probably not very realistic), they become even easier to maneuver around, march block, and eventually flank with Magic Movement.

agreed, imagnie if he had 1 unit of blood knights or something else as well, he could even use offensive magic to kill saurus (curse, winds of undeath) and even gain a good flanking unit out of it.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 20:06
Put the scarvet on a coldone... done. Now what silly wraiths? (thought I already had him on it in the original list.)

If you want a realistic list then here you go. This is MY 2250 tournament list:

Scarvet w/ piranha blade, light armor, shield, bane head
Skink chief w/ extra hand weapon, light armor, shield, cloak of feathers
Skink priest w/ diadem of power, scroll

18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
10 skinks
10 skinks
10 skinks
10 skinks
Jungle swarm

3 terradons
7 cold one cav
7 cold one cav
6 chameleon skinks

3 razordons
Salamander

Total: 2245


Three blocks of spear saurus flanked by two large units of saurus cav (deployed in single rank) with enough support elements to cause you a headache.

I WILL have more unit than the VC player so I can place that scarvet across from the wraiths (and oh look he's on a coldone). I WILL control the center AND the flanks and you will NOT be able to sneak around.

I don't NEED to charge with my spear saurus because I have saurus cav going around the flanks. So either you come and engage me or you're about to be in a LOT of trouble.


My tournament vampire list is:

Lvl 3 vampire lord w/ master of black arts, summon ghouls, ghoulkin, sword of might, crown of the damned
Vampire w/ master of black arts, helm of commandment
Vampire w/ master of black arts, book of arkhan
Necromancer w/ scepre of noirot, dispel scroll
16 crypt ghouls w/ ghast
16 crypt ghouls w/ ghast
10 crypt ghouls
Corpse cart w/ unholy load stone
Corpse cart w/ balefire
20 graveguard w/ FC, warbanner
6 Cairn wraiths
7 Black knights w/ barding, banner, banner of undead legion

Total 2249


I have NO doubt that if I was to face off against myself with these lists that the vampire list would be crushed unless it turtled up and waited for a tie.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 20:08
Glad to see you agree as I really respect your opinion. I'm just trying to avoid the kind of "tit-for-tat" argument.

Any kind of OP army like VC instinctively has units to counter any specific army build if you're tailoring.

Right now I'm arguing from the perspective of a summoning/horde VC list. The kind that takes Ghouls, Dire Wolves (including 1-2 thirster pits), Wraiths, probably Bats and then Characters (w/ the aforementioned "I'm guaranteed to screw you" lord build).

There are also Fighty VC lists which do all sorts of nasty things to most armies, but people don't see them nearly as much because they almost all auto-lose to Bloothirster Daemon armies. :D

Malorian
24-03-2009, 20:12
Don't even get me started on all the draw backs of blood knights... :rolleyes:


Edit: Actually I think blood knights is the perfect example of what I'm trying to say. When blood knights came out everyone was going 'oh no! 5 attacks per model? Str 7? I'm doomed!!!'. People got smacked around by the bloodknights for a while and then they started thinking 'wait a second... there is an extremely easy and effective way to counter these guys!' (no to mention bloodthirster showed up) and now I think most people would LOVE to be up against a vampire list with blood knights.

Phazael
24-03-2009, 20:15
And the typical knight unit we are talking about here is the Nurgle with frenzy banner. Assuming no Helm (and there is always a helm), the knights (say 6 wide) will spank 11 skeletons, with another 7 crumbling away to combat res. Guess what, there are probably skeletons left and they will all be back full strength next turn. Meanwhile you will be flanked by zombies and probably rapidly aging to death, as well. This assumes the VC player even lets you hit his blocks and does not divert you off the track with some crappy zombie unit at an odd angle. Or that he doesn't dance a regenerating GG deathstar into them.

Really, in my experience, the two things WoC have going for them are the Tongue/Puppet combo and Infernal Gateway/Buboes Spam. The first can be mitigated by a savvy VC player, just by always using two dice to cast Invo with his lord vamp. The second is a pure crapshoot, both in terms of getting it off and rolling the magic 11 or 12. The VC player really does not need to save dispell dice for anything but those two spells (and can even heal back damage when Buboes does get through) and the Chaos caster lord has to get close enough to not get bricked in by zombies.

As for the Warrior argument, clever use of the WS7 helm pretty much sinks that one, to say nothing of getting a nice fat block of static CR5 pushed into your flank, which a warrior heavy army is essentially powerless to stop. The skeletons do not have to kill anything, or even win combat. Banshees and Curse of Years can do all the wear down needed. This is all assuming, as Voodoo pointed out, that the VC player even feels like engaging you.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 20:19
Warriors are best used as MSU (as they had been in the last book).

160 points per unit... repeat... add knights... attack.

Good luck trying to control the movement phase against that...

Phazael
24-03-2009, 20:21
Don't even get me started on all the draw backs of blood knights... :rolleyes:


Edit: Actually I think blood knights is the perfect example of what I'm trying to say. When blood knights came out everyone was going 'oh no! 5 attacks per model? Str 7? I'm doomed!!!'. People got smacked around by the bloodknights for a while and then they started thinking 'wait a second... there is an extremely easy and effective way to counter these guys!' (no to mention bloodthirster showed up) and now I think most people would LOVE to be up against a vampire list with blood knights.

I agree totally with you here. People who field blood knights are ******, even in a fighty list. However, a Thister is hardly an autowin for the DoC player against this (or any) vamp list. The only other Vamp character I consider worth taking over the Staff/helm combo is the casty mounted guy with a Frostblade. This guy scares the crap out of most greater daemons, especially with a corpse cart around. The average DoC army is not going to be able to shut down all of the bounds (and dances) and with them, this guy destroys just about any character he faces, short of the DE Last Son of Krypton invincible lord guy. The Keeper of Secrets is really the only GD that is even remotely a threat to this guy and even then, he will probably still come out on top.

Phazael
24-03-2009, 20:22
Warriors are best used as MSU (as they had been in the last book).

160 points per unit... repeat... add knights... attack.

Good luck trying to control the movement phase against that...

Evidently the whole concept of Zombie speed bumps is a new one to you.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 20:23
Put the scarvet on a coldone... done. Now what silly wraiths? (thought I already had him on it in the original list.)

If you want a realistic list then here you go. This is MY 2250 tournament list:

Scarvet w/ piranha blade, light armor, shield, bane head
Skink chief w/ extra hand weapon, light armor, shield, cloak of feathers
Skink priest w/ diadem of power, scroll

18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
10 skinks
10 skinks
10 skinks
10 skinks
Jungle swarm

3 terradons
7 cold one cav
7 cold one cav
6 chameleon skinks

3 razordons
Salamander

Total: 2245


Three blocks of spear saurus flanked by two large units of saurus cav (deployed in single rank) with enough support elements to cause you a headache.

I WILL have more unit than the VC player so I can place that scarvet across from the wraiths (and oh look he's on a coldone). I WILL control the center AND the flanks and you will NOT be able to sneak around.

I don't NEED to charge with my spear saurus because I have saurus cav going around the flanks. So either you come and engage me or you're about to be in a LOT of trouble.


My tournament vampire list is:

Lvl 3 vampire lord w/ master of black arts, summon ghouls, ghoulkin, sword of might, crown of the damned
Vampire w/ master of black arts, helm of commandment
Vampire w/ master of black arts, book of arkhan
Necromancer w/ scepre of noirot, dispel scroll
16 crypt ghouls w/ ghast
16 crypt ghouls w/ ghast
10 crypt ghouls
Corpse cart w/ unholy load stone
Corpse cart w/ balefire
20 graveguard w/ FC, warbanner
6 Cairn wraiths
7 Black knights w/ barding, banner, banner of undead legion

Total 2249


I have NO doubt that if I was to face off against myself with these lists that the vampire list would be crushed unless it turtled up and waited for a tie.

#1) Even if he's on the cold one, the Wraiths will still get around him, unless you're talking about having him out on his own, which would be a very bad idea for reasons I'm sure you'd realize.

Getting to your examples:

Your VC list is good, but wholly un-optimized. In that matchup, I'd probably still rather have the VC list, though the Lizzies would stand a better shot than most against it.

It comes down to "did the VC player roll Dance, and how many times" and then "how many Stupidity tests did the LM player fail?". Oh and I forgot, "did the VC Lord ever go stupid?".

Still, I wouldn't call your list a-typical.

You don't have the Helm of Commandment on the Lord.
You don't have an easy place to hide your lord so he won't get character hunted...actually I missed the GG, so you could if you wanted to, though it's not as efficient due to.....
You're actually paying for core troops over the minimum + command.
No Banshee in the Wraiths.
No summoning bloodline power on hero Vamps
You took a Necro instead of a 4th Vamp.
Your lord can go stupid (in a list that lacks the redundancy to keep going if it happens).

Basically you're close to having the nasty stuff, but not quite there - with a number of obvious flaws in the list (noted above).

It's like a DoC player taking Blocks of Bloodletters, or Khorne Heralds without a Juggernaut & Armor of Khorne, or a Bloodthirster without Re-Rolls.

Sure if you build a Sub-Par DoC list, it's merely "strong" or will have only a few inherant advantages over other armies at a tournament and will not be in the "overpowered" bracket. Same with VC.

EvC
24-03-2009, 20:28
If you want a realistic list then here you go. This is MY 2250 tournament list:

Scarvet w/ piranha blade, light armor, shield, bane head
Skink chief w/ extra hand weapon, light armor, shield, cloak of feathers
Skink priest w/ diadem of power, scroll

18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
18 spear saurus w/ banner, musician
10 skinks
10 skinks
10 skinks
10 skinks
Jungle swarm

3 terradons
7 cold one cav
7 cold one cav
6 chameleon skinks

3 razordons
Salamander

Total: 2245


Three blocks of spear saurus flanked by two large units of saurus cav (deployed in single rank) with enough support elements to cause you a headache.

I WILL have more unit than the VC player so I can place that scarvet across from the wraiths (and oh look he's on a coldone). I WILL control the center AND the flanks and you will NOT be able to sneak around.

I don't NEED to charge with my spear saurus because I have saurus cav going around the flanks. So either you come and engage me or you're about to be in a LOT of trouble.


My tournament vampire list is:

Lvl 3 vampire lord w/ master of black arts, summon ghouls, ghoulkin, sword of might, crown of the damned
Vampire w/ master of black arts, helm of commandment
Vampire w/ master of black arts, book of arkhan
Necromancer w/ scepre of noirot, dispel scroll
16 crypt ghouls w/ ghast
16 crypt ghouls w/ ghast
10 crypt ghouls
Corpse cart w/ unholy load stone
Corpse cart w/ balefire
20 graveguard w/ FC, warbanner
6 Cairn wraiths
7 Black knights w/ barding, banner, banner of undead legion

Total 2249


I have NO doubt that if I was to face off against myself with these lists that the vampire list would be crushed unless it turtled up and waited for a tie.

I would bet on the VC list every single time, ever. Even playing aggressively. New Lizardmen are good (And well done for not including the really nasty stuff like multiple Terradon units or an Engine), but 5DD vs your 15 and bounds? No chance. The Wraiths alone would annihilate half the Lizardmen army.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 20:28
@Malorian: Agreed. Blood Knights have tons of drawbacks. Most "fighty" lists from VC will take them and a ton of Dire Wolves (to mitigate the downsides) and will always have guaranteed dances to come around in those lists to ensure combats.

But Warriors in small units? I charge them with a standard unit of Ghouls and they autobreak unless they have the Mark of Slaanesh.

@Phazael: You won't see mounted VC Lords w/ the Frostblade. Obsidian Thirsters pretty much made that combo disappear from any competitive list. Still, I'd probably take the Thirster + Friends DOC list against any fighty VC army.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 20:34
Evidently the whole concept of Zombie speed bumps is a new one to you.

Zombie speed bumps can only do so much and if you use them too much you are just giving away victory points.


Voodoo, how the hell are the wraiths going to get around him? And how many turns to you plan on wasting having that 300 point unit hide in the trees hoping for an opening?


You don't have the Helm of Commandment on the Lord. (Nope, it would be a waste to not get that lord in combat when it's safe. In those cases the helm would be useless, and being that WS6 isn't that much worse than WS6 it's simply more reliable tactics wise.)

You don't have an easy place to hide your lord so he won't get character hunted...actually I missed the GG, so you could if you wanted to, though it's not as efficient due to..... (You see that 10 man bunker?)

You're actually paying for core troops over the minimum + command. (VC players that take them at 10 are asking to have them wiped out before they have a chance to raise them from first turn shooting/magic/and the evil vortex shard.)

No Banshee in the Wraiths. (Haven't found it worth it and would rather have the better attacks to actually stand a chance against blocks.)

No summoning bloodline power on hero Vamps (Not needed.)

You took a Necro instead of a 4th Vamp. (saves points on a dedicated zombie raiser)

Your lord can go stupid (Worth the risk)


I am no new vampire player and I have won a tournament with my vampires. It is from this experience that I have watched my vampires go from all powerful to merely strong for all the reasons I have listed before.

Vampire might have been overpowered back when other players weren't ready for them, but now the counters are known and the golden days are gone.

Mireadur
24-03-2009, 20:43
They are a strong army but I refuse to class them as overpowered.

I said from the very beginning that VC would start off tough but then people would figure out the tricks and it wouldn't be so bad, and it has come true.

I think many players that complain about VC would do well to try a couple games out on the VC side and:

-Feel like their lord is a prisoner forced to hide from character killers and run like a girl from dragons.
-Watch as their hammers are shot to pieces before you can raise them and then basically have to sit there and raise as your opponent beats on you.
-Watch your 350 point unit of wraiths get torn apart by one cheap hero.



You are making very biased points, nearly like a child who doesnt want to lose an argue, and makes me feel sad about it. In what respects to me theres nothing more to discuss here.
Allow me to retire that of ''reflective'' too, i was wrong. :eyebrows:

Phazael
24-03-2009, 20:44
@Phazael: You won't see mounted VC Lords w/ the Frostblade. Obsidian Thirsters pretty much made that combo disappear from any competitive list. Still, I'd probably take the Thirster + Friends DOC list against any fighty VC army.

The FSB, Obsidian Armor, Fury setup is a suckfest against High Elves, which comprise a major chunk of tournament play (at least they do at GTs). Baltimore had two top ten lists with the Frostblade in them and most thisters I saw run there had my prefered setup (S10 and Fury) because it is more versitile. I think the Blade of Realities may make people rethink that, however, so you might be right on that point. But even the non Frostblade guy (the one with the 4+ ward) has a solid shot againt the BT (he takes two wounds on average), especially if he is in a regen deathstar and the BT does not have the FSB. Granted, you have three rounds to punk him to combat resolution before your lord dies, but considering you can generate rear attacking troops from thin air, its not too difficult to do (and a BT losing by 6 every round of combat tends to die pretty fast).

But you are absolutely correct in that I would much rather (as a DoC player) face a fighty VC list, as opposed to the casty one. Its the damn helm that causes me the most problems and the casty guy being impossible to ever catch, while remaining fully effective. To be fair, my DoC army tends to be more combat res intensive than the "30 horrors, dog spam, lolz" armies people tend to bitch about.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 20:49
I'm doing my best to show you guys the point of view of the vampire player.

When ever I come across any 'boo hoo I can't beat this, it's overpowered' I'm always the first in there to prove them wrong.

With vampires all people look at it the IoN, vanhels, helm, wraiths, and blood knights and sob a river complaining about how vampires are overpowered and not fair.

Well maybe if people took the time to look at it from the other side they would learn the weaknesses, and you know what? A lot of people have!

It's a smaller and smaller handful of people that think vampires are overpowered and unfair and unfortunately threads like this are great for pulling them together.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 20:49
Voodoo, how the hell are the wraiths going to get around him? And how many turns to you plan on wasting having that 300 point unit hide in the trees hoping for an opening?

March 12, Dance another 8 if you need it, go Horizontal.

Wraiths job is to use the 20" move to project force against parts of your opponents army that can't deal with them.



(Nope, it would be a waste to not get that lord in combat when it's safe. In those cases the helm would be useless, and being that WS6 isn't that much worse than WS6 it's simply more reliable tactics wise.)

I think it's more of a waste to risk the Vamp at all. He's not needed to do combat duties.


You don't have an easy place to hide your lord so he won't get character hunted...actually I missed the GG, so you could if you wanted to, though it's not as efficient due to..... (You see that 10 man bunker?)

Yeah, I saw it - kind of why I corrected myself but left it as a point because you're not being efficient.


(VC players that take them at 10 are asking to have them wiped out before they have a chance to raise them from first turn shooting/magic/and the evil vortex shard.)

Minimal Risk. Against Gun lines you can deploy differently to mitigate the risk. There are very few armies that can throw out enough firepower on turn 1 to really wipe out 10 T4 models. And the Vortex Shard is one hell of an uncommon counter. It'd be more prevalent sure if I VC were still top dog and Daemons weren't running around - but other things in the metagame make a Level 4 HE Lord a poor choice now.


No Banshee in the Wraiths. (Haven't found it worth it and would rather have the better attacks to actually stand a chance against blocks.)

Fair enough, though I've seen the banshee do enough damage (especially from stand and shoot reactions) and challenge out nasty characters who can actually hurt the wraiths. It gets even better if the Lord is close enough to give the unit WS7.


No summoning bloodline power on hero Vamps (Not needed.)

I disagree, but OK.


You took a Necro instead of a 4th Vamp. (saves points on a dedicated zombie raiser)

Not that many points, and given efficiencies you could make up with elsewhere in the list by optimizing it's easily affordable.


Your lord can go stupid (Worth the risk)

I disagree, but you try to get your dude into combat, which I'd never do if I played competitive VC.



I am no new vampire player and I have won a tournament with my vampires. It is from this experience that I have watched my vampires go from all powerful to merely strong for all the reasons I have listed before.

That's still a hell of a powerful list, though not as nasty as it could be for sure. A lot is based on what you roll for spells. Dice could completely screw you. The point of OTT VC lists is that you can effectively not care about dice because you can guarantee so much and limit your opponent.


Vampire might have been overpowered back when other players weren't ready for them, but now the counters are known and the golden days are gone.

Absolutely disagree. Sure people can learn to counter lists such as yours. In fact I'd say you could even have bad matchups against standard power-build DoC lists, but it's still got WAY too many advantages over the vast majority of Warhammer to be anything but overpowered.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 20:56
The FSB, Obsidian Armor, Fury setup is a suckfest against High Elves, which comprise a major chunk of tournament play (at least they do at GTs). Baltimore had two top ten lists with the Frostblade in them and most thisters I saw run there had my prefered setup (S10 and Fury) because it is more versitile. I think the Blade of Realities may make people rethink that, however, so you might be right on that point. But even the non Frostblade guy (the one with the 4+ ward) has a solid shot againt the BT (he takes two wounds on average), especially if he is in a regen deathstar and the BT does not have the FSB. Granted, you have three rounds to punk him to combat resolution before your lord dies, but considering you can generate rear attacking troops from thin air, its not too difficult to do (and a BT losing by 6 every round of combat tends to die pretty fast).

I agree that High Elves (particularly Star Dragon/Dragon Prince heavy) builds will limit Thirsters with the FSB, but really IMO the FSB isn't necessary all the time (though it's awesome against so many other things) but Obsidian Armor certainly is.

Being able to ensure that "my thirster hits combat, he wins, you can't stop him" is the kind of thing that makes him so ridiculously good.

Still I haven't been playing my Daemons this year, I'm holding off on using them till after the next GT I go to, then I'll probably focus on them. I haven't made the decision to go with the FSB or not in my build. :)

Phazael
24-03-2009, 21:14
You (Malorian) are making a anecdotal argument. You are putting up what would be considered by most tournament players a weak VC army list and using this as the basis for saying that VC are not a powerful army. It would be a lot like me putting a list out with a bunch of bloodletters being led by a single khorne herald on foot and claiming that DoC was a weak army list. The fact is, most (if not all) tournament VC lists are comming in the following two varieties:

Invospam-
Casty Lord, 2 Casty Hero Vamps, Wight w Regen Banner, GG deathstar, couple skeleton (or ghoul) blocks, couple corpse carts (or perhaps black knights).

Doggie Deathstar-
Fighty Lord w 3 fighty buddies (including the regen BSB and some casty gifts) running around in a giant unit of dire wolves, some extra random core, some wraiths, some other random stuff to march block.

Both armies match up very well against most power builds, but certainly have a couple bad metagame matchups. Both also have an extra army's worth of troops sitting in the case waiting to be summoned in that do not cough up, at most, five models worth of VP when killed. Both also sport more magic than most armies they will ever face in a tournament, other than other VC lists.

EvC
24-03-2009, 23:28
The main reason why Malorian and others' VC lists aint so good any more is simply that Daemons were released. There was a bit of a catch-up period where people didn't think they would have to bring lots of magic attacks to stand a chance, but by then Daemons were out, making massive units of Wraiths a little less common. Vampires are still generally amazing and have the single strongest possible list out there (Invospam as described by Phazael), which draws/ beats a Bloodthirster build simply cos the Thirster should never, ever reach the Vampire Lord.

It's not like combat Vampire armies are especially weak though- they're simply more at risk of dodgy dice ending the game early. Last night I wiped out every last model in my opponent's Ogre army, using 7-8 power dice a turn and mostly being charged. Ogres aren't a strong army of course, but to annihilate them without breaking a sweat using such a weak VC army was a bit of a shame. If he'd had another 500 points I think we might've been near even.

Caine Mangakahia
24-03-2009, 23:48
I'm with Malorian on this one. As a dedicated VC player, I've had my head handed to me plenty of times by DoC, an even amount of Losses Wins and Draws to DE and HE, draws vs Dwarves , and massacred the one time I played LM.
Our gaming group plays 1500-2500 point battles and is filled with some of the meanest and most ruthless players you'll find (which is the way we like it).
To see the point of veiw from the other side, I tried playing with Empire vs VC, as a VC player I was able to exploit the VC weaknesses ruthlessly and won soundly. Our DE player (Yo Sulla wassup!) can usually exploit VC weaknesses ,regarless of how often he complains about the VC, when he does lose its usually due to abysmal luck more than anything else.
VC are very strong, no disagreement, but so are many of the new armies in their own way, overpoewred is an overstatement :)

fubukii
24-03-2009, 23:48
evc is correct the invo spam build is rediculous to fight against even for daemon players. if you can manage to kill some heroes it drops, but if they hidden in a unit behind a unit in the middle of said unit its tough. One way is to punch through the unit they are hiding behind but it requires alot of power to do so. ( im talking thrister , hounds, khorne herald and maybe even some flamers.)

LKHERO
25-03-2009, 01:25
Do you guys see CC heavy VC lists work?

Looking over a quick glance, I can see a Vamp Lord with Dreadlance and Red Fury being extremely deadly. What about those Knights that can move through terrain? Should those be something I should be worried about?

fubukii
25-03-2009, 03:47
they work fine, just bloodthristers and other large monsters give them some trouble.

Phazael
25-03-2009, 15:34
they work fine, just bloodthristers and other large monsters give them some trouble.
This, plus there simply is no reason to risk the Lord in this manner. One off hero vamps? Absolutely. But the lord vamp is simply too critical to the army to risk having dice death on. And honestly, the Wight King is pretty damn beefy as fighting characters go, anyhow.

EvC
25-03-2009, 16:00
Do you guys see CC heavy VC lists work?

Looking over a quick glance, I can see a Vamp Lord with Dreadlance and Red Fury being extremely deadly. What about those Knights that can move through terrain? Should those be something I should be worried about?

I've done well at tournaments with my CC heavy VC lists, but I am extremely experienced with the army. I don't bother with Dreadlance though, it doesn't work against the Bloodthirsters that most people use in tournaments that I've played in, and takes up far too much magic items allowance. You can just pay 25 points for hatred so you hit 90% of the time (If only it was Dark Elf 100% hitrate hatred :D ) and then combine with lance or whatever, and then still have points for Book of Arkhan etc.

If you put a Dreadlance Vamp Lord in a unit of Black Knights they can no longer go through terrain, so that's not usually an issue at the same time. Although most Dreadlance lists see the big guy on a Dragon or multiple units of knights in the first place.

VC Billy
25-03-2009, 18:49
Now we come to the second point. You are not saying that every vampire list is built like that but that's what I can read from your posts. So you are saying that you must make a strong counterlist which uses units mentioned before to win any vampire list. That is like saying that HE in general are overpowered because you can't win games against a two dragon list without tailoring you own list heavily. Every vampire list does not have a 6PD generating lord, three vampires and a long list of bound spells.


Well said. :)

Krom The Eternal
26-03-2009, 03:54
tzeentch magic and some luck could make you say VC arent that impressive lol

TheDean04
26-03-2009, 05:20
True. A friend of mine would run a TZ flying circus against my VC, man those were not fun games. I don't mind losing but I do enjoy a good game.

Krom The Eternal
26-03-2009, 05:53
haha the flying circus is always fun to watch not as fun to play but you gotta admit is ingenious lol

Kerill
26-03-2009, 06:55
To me overpowered is a build that the majority of normal armies have almost no hope of beating or requires a great deal of list tailoring to have a chance.

Having said that, I think the only problems with VC is that invocation of nehek should be a 5+ spell and vanhels an 8+ or 9+ spell. Army fixed, please move along.
Invocation spam with power at current means only 1/3 will fail so a list with 12 invocations cast gets 9 of them. At 5+ that's only 6. If they all go for double power dice ability instead (like malorians lists) they fail 2/3 of the time instead of 1/2, again putting a big dent in the invocations. 9 successful invocations +3 bounds spells is almost impossible to stop, 6 and 3 bound spells means you can stop enough to be in with a chance of winning. At that point only the helm seems overpowered to me.

Dungeon_Lawyer
26-03-2009, 10:03
Yes, Invocation is a powerful thing. But let us put it in perspective. You are raising up d6 models with a "goblins" Stat line. Most models that are brought back are WS2 skellies or ghouls, both of which are str 3. Whoa, thats not too scary.

All the heavy-hitters/ killers are brought back one wound at a time.

what you say is true, but it fails to take into account the helm of commandment: with the helm in play those skellies/ghouls are not "goblins" anymore, they are more like "orc warbosses"!

YTY
26-03-2009, 13:53
what you say is true, but it fails to take into account the helm of commandment: with the helm in play those skellies/ghouls are not "goblins" anymore, they are more like "orc warbosses"!

Laugh of the day :D

Seriously, that warboss thing was the worst argument i've ever seen.

Dungeon_Lawyer
26-03-2009, 21:57
Laugh of the day :D

Seriously, that warboss thing was the worst argument i've ever seen.

:wtf:

dam dude, chillax.

Its not even meant to be an argument, merely a comparison based on the difference in ws the helm affords a unit of skellies....
Since the post I was responding to equated skellies to goblins for a ws comparison, I merely extended the comparison to another o&g unit(ie the orc warboss) for what happens to skellies who enjoy the benefits of the helm.

Read the thread since your last post, the helm looms large in the what was a civil discussion(that is until you showed up again to post drivel that does nothing to further said polite discussion)

And why am I even wasting my time responding to your rude ass post.?..oh yeah ,cause I had not yet found the ignore button....there we go......

TheZombieSquig
27-03-2009, 01:51
I wouldn't say there'd overpowered at all. They are a different playstyle and require a different set of tactics to counter. If you approach them with the same tactics as you would use against other armies, you'll probably lose.

Kahadras
27-03-2009, 02:46
what you say is true, but it fails to take into account the helm of commandment

IMHO the ability is damn scary even without the helm. A couple of those going off a turn can pretty much tarpit all but the most offencive units. So what if a Skeleton has poor stats? You don't buy basic undead infantry for their killing power but the other things that they bring to the table. The one player I really don't like facing at my club is the one with the magic heavy VC list.

Kahadras

YTY
27-03-2009, 12:34
I'm not being rude. It really was silly.

popisdead
09-04-2009, 23:46
The problem is people overdo the magic. any army with max magic is lame.

it's easy to make a balanced army that makes sense.

As for raising-dead,..that's what they do?!?! People complained the WE army shot really well when it first came out,.. now it's normal.

speedygogo
10-04-2009, 07:07
The VC are particularly cheap in the magic phase reuiring 1 dice to cast and being able to cast the same spell with every one of their 12-15 power dice is cheap. To make matters worse a unit can fight with a vampires WS via the helm of command and regenerate with the drackhoff banner. The chees is at its worst on a large unit of black knights that move 16 inches and through forest without penalty. Evry wound caused by a unit like that is healed and eventually you lose combat. The flanking support units which should be weak are too good, making it difficult to get by them. Ghouls are a bargin for the points and do just fine holding flanks, as do wraiths.

VC lists are easy to abuse and player do just that. I've played vc for years and stopped playing them as a result of the new book. It is a challenge to make a balanced list with them and all 20 games I played with the new book we not fun.

Sure I won some like 18 games but it wasn't because I was a better general, far from that. I won because the lists are far too good. The same it true with daemons. My Daemon army is 12-1-1 with the lone loss coming against a list specifically built to beat mine. I am a competant genernal but not a great one, when I easily beat a nationally ranked player who clearly outplayed me it is crap. I feel if I am out played, I should lose. A properly equiped thirster or unit of black knight can fly head on into most units and outright crush them. To worsen matters, elite units a can charge in the rear or flank and still lose combat.

knightime98
10-04-2009, 08:19
I generally agree with the previous posters above starting at post #103.

Generically speaking - the problem lies in 3 factors. One, the VC have become much more sustainable in combat. Two, the magic is ridiculous. And Third, their gimmicks trump the rest meaning units (Wraiths - in some armies you need a character specifically to deal with them.. i.e. Empire.. YOU MUST have a character to deal damage to them), Vargulf (Terror, Vampire), Spirit Hosts (need a character again to deal with especially if it is wind of undeath that makes it.. i've seen a game where 42 wounds of a spirit host were created <--- YES and it was irresistible to boot.. ), T4 units (Ghouls, GG) that get to be healed if not regenerated, what in the empire, bretonnian, orc and goblin, high elf, dark elf, dwarves, or any other army that has T4 w/regen and can heal itself ??? NO ONE!, Corpse Cart (I don't have a problem with this, I thought it was a nice addition to the army), and so on...

The basic problem is that they wanted to boost the army but they WAY over did it! GW has two ways of dealing with armies .. Either putting them WAY over the top OR Pegging them so far down that they are screwed... i.e. Orcs and Goblins - first 7th ed army that now sucks until 8th edition.

Lastly, I play two friends of mine who have VC.. Simply put if they bring more than about 10 PD to the table - I don't play.. IT IS NOT FUN.. It's just that simple! Really..
I played one of my friends in the first time with VC and he had 17 PD with 2 bound items each turn.. He had over 200 models by turn 2.. Was just stupid... REALLY stupid. I had like 6 DD or so but really.. What are you going to do.. One last point of contention.. How on earth are you going to kill even zombies with one attack per model units.. You can not do enough wounds to make them crumble.. If you hit AND wound with your 5 wide unit w/ champion, you have 6 wounds.. Really only 6? that's it. He has 20 zombies.. and lost by 6..ok he only has 8 zombies left.. His turn. raise, raise, raise, etc.. until he has 30 or so in the unit. Enough to last his turn and your turn until raising on his turn again. Rinse and repeat..

Well, all from me on this one.

Devil Tree
10-04-2009, 21:33
I always wondered why the army book writers felt the need to give VC such an over the top boost and why GW allowed it. Itís not like they really needed it, 6th edition VC always seemed to be an upper tier army. When I played with them I didnít win all the time but I had a pretty good win/loss record. Now though, I donít bother taking them out of their cases.

Mireadur
10-04-2009, 22:33
Originally Posted by Baron Von Rotten View Post
Yes, Invocation is a powerful thing. But let us put it in perspective. You are raising up d6 models with a "goblins" Stat line. Most models that are brought back are WS2 skellies or ghouls, both of which are str 3. Whoa, thats not too scary.

All the heavy-hitters/ killers are brought back one wound at a time.


And all of those ''goblins'' have 1 'T3 AS4+' wound (but that's just when they are goblins instead ghouls or grave guards!)

Finnigan2004
11-04-2009, 01:17
And all of those ''goblins'' have 1 'T3 AS4+' wound (but that's just when they are goblins instead ghouls or grave guards!)

... and technically they are scary-- being as they cause fear. This is their huge advantage over goblins.