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jason
22-03-2009, 22:29
After all the "hate" towards Daemons from overpoweredness, can they be a fun army to play against? I started to collect some Nurgle daemons back in the HOC days to run a mixed human/daemon mono-Nurgle list. Then out came the DOC book. Here is what I currently have:

GUO
Nurglings x 12

I bought both books (fantasy and 40K) and have my models on magnetized bases to play either game. However, I never did get around to buying any more models. In fantasy these would be about 1000 points. I would obviously need to fill out the core, and I am big on fluff. However, I am not a big fan of the uber-expensive metal plaguebearers. If plastic PB came out I would probably run a mono-Nurgle daemon army in a heartbeat. However, I would do it for fluff, not for WAAC-great wall of Nurgle tourny reasons (i.e. NO Epidemius/Nurgle heralds).

So I thought if I had to mix it up, why not throw in some Khorne? So if you took a Nurgle/Khorne list with one greater daemon (GUO) WITHOUT any other heralds, could you fill in the rest with say bloodletters and fleshhounds, and make it a fun list? I even thought of getting a thirster to fly in on turn 6 to attack my own GUO (much like Skarbrand attacking Father Necroth), just to add some variety to the game.

I can figure out from numerous posts what not to include in a "fun" list (flamers, thirster in obsidian armor, etc.). Can you suggest what a friendly daemons list would include (both in a general sense and to fill out my list above)? Thanks.

O&G'sRule
22-03-2009, 22:37
Yeah they're fine. Whether things are fun or not is more about how you play than your army imo. If you're having a laugh about things, not arguing about pointless rules there shouldn't be a problem, unless you play people only interested in winning. IMO the only really questionable thing is the blue scribes, I honestly read their rules with total shock. Though I have to admit I want to do a daemon army now with them in just to see how dirty they are

W0lf
22-03-2009, 22:43
Any daemons list purposely built to not be broken is fine.

Fun, it depends and is ofc subjective.

As a powergamer id be offended if someone fielded 3 unit of bearers without heralds.

Aurellis
22-03-2009, 22:54
My brother plays a mono-Slaneesh list which I don't find to be overpowered or broken. The whole list might have Mv 10 but this is balanced by quite a few weaknesses.

I find that Mono-God lists apart from Khorne tend to be quite fun to play against.

phoenixlaw
22-03-2009, 23:06
If you were looking to venture away from Nurgle then either bloodletters or daemonettes are ok as core. Theyre fine with a Herald too.

Screamers are ok as are beasts of Nurgle, as are bloodcrushers.

It is annoying though that you have to make a conscious decision to play a 'weaker' list. I barely play my daemons any more !

phoenixlaw
22-03-2009, 23:09
Things to avoid are, Plaguebearers with herald, multiple horror units, flamers, flesh hounds, Keeper of Secrets, Thirster, Khorne Herald on Juggernought with armour gifts, Stubborn banner or any of the special characters.

Then peopl really have no reason to moan.

MalusCalibur
23-03-2009, 00:56
Things to avoid are, Plaguebearers with herald, multiple horror units, flamers, flesh hounds, Keeper of Secrets, Thirster, Khorne Herald on Juggernought with armour gifts, Stubborn banner or any of the special characters.

Then peopl really have no reason to moan.

So basically, lets cut half the damn options from the book?

The special characters I'll give you, since they are broken as hell across most armies and should never be taken in any of them. But other than that, I see no reason not to take any of the choices listed there, if the OP wants to use them. What if he wants to do a mixed Slaanesh-Khorne army (like my own, incidentally)? Then both his GD's are out of the question, as is one of his best Hero choices and an entire Special choice.

The OP should use whatever units he likes, for whatever reason, so long as it is something a little more substantial than just winning. A handful of WaaC players who have gotten their grubby mitts on the DoC book should not ruin it for those of us who collect them because we think they're an awesome, colourful, and characterful army.

DoC arn't perfect, of course, and there ARE flaws with the list that perhaps should be fixed, but banning choices in the book is not the answer.


MalusCalibur

Marshal Sinclair
23-03-2009, 00:59
If he wants to do a Slaanesh/Khorne army he should be beaten with a stick anyway, for pure fluff reasons.

PopeAlexanderVI
23-03-2009, 01:38
So basically, lets cut half the damn options from the book?

The special characters I'll give you, since they are broken as hell across most armies and should never be taken in any of them. But other than that, I see no reason not to take any of the choices listed there, if the OP wants to use them. What if he wants to do a mixed Slaanesh-Khorne army (like my own, incidentally)? Then both his GD's are out of the question, as is one of his best Hero choices and an entire Special choice.

The OP should use whatever units he likes, for whatever reason, so long as it is something a little more substantial than just winning. A handful of WaaC players who have gotten their grubby mitts on the DoC book should not ruin it for those of us who collect them because we think they're an awesome, colourful, and characterful army.

DoC arn't perfect, of course, and there ARE flaws with the list that perhaps should be fixed, but banning choices in the book is not the answer.


MalusCalibur

Those flaws include entire units.

Like Flesh Hounds. I mean, seriously? All the advantages of Daemons (Immune to psych, 5+ ward, fear etc), 2 wounds, Str 5, M8 and MR3? For 35 points? The same points as Lizardmen Cold One Riders? They're "cav", but unlike most cav they can win grinding fights.

Flamers are just hands down the best unit in the game.

fubukii
23-03-2009, 01:47
Those flaws include entire units.

Like Flesh Hounds. I mean, seriously? All the advantages of Daemons (Immune to psych, 5+ ward, fear etc), 2 wounds, Str 5, M8 and MR3? For 35 points? The same points as Lizardmen Cold One Riders? They're "cav", but unlike most cav they can win grinding fights.

Flamers are just hands down the best unit in the game.

ill take a 40 pt chaos knight over a flesh hound anyday.

comparing flesh hounds to a underpowered unit of cav is just silly.

PopeAlexanderVI
23-03-2009, 01:55
Flesh Hounds are worse because of 2 wounds and MR3.

Chaos Knights are easy to deal with if you have war machines or can take the Lore of Metal.

fubukii
23-03-2009, 02:25
i fail to see how warmachines are bad vs flesh hounds, for that matter shooting like handguns and crossbows is much more effective vs hounds then chaos knights.

Chaos knights also get more attacks ( a unit with mok rocks 25 total attacks, 15 str 5 10 str 4, or 1o str 5 5 str 4 from a regular unit)

20 crossbow wounds - 13.2 unsaved = roughly 6-7 dead hounds
2o crossbow wounds vs chaos knights - 3.2 unsaved.
10 crossbow wounds - 6.6 unsaved - 3 dead hounds
vs knights - 1.6 dead,

Lord Dan
23-03-2009, 02:30
Any daemons list purposely built to not be broken is fine.


How ironic. With any other book you have to try to make a broken list. With daemons, you have to try to make a non-broken list.

Jind_Singh
23-03-2009, 03:11
lol, I love this thread! Read it today for the 1st time - I started collecting deamons back when Realms of Chaos first came out....take a character and build him a retinue, so I went all things deamony.
In those days it was a hard army to play with - uber expensive models that kicked ass.
These days not only do they kick ass, they also kick every other body parts that most kicks can't even reach, and points is very cheap!

Ways to 'unbreak' the deamon army lists

1) If you really want to, you could always take 20% less points in the list than the other general.
2) Play mono-chaos power lists as the new army really works well with a mix of the chaos gods.
3) Dont take any upgrades for either bannors or the deamonic gifts - keep the stats basic.

But having said all that, so long as you dont squeeze all the cheese out of the book the army is overall solid - not unbeatable.
But you got to admit, as a result of now owning a 8000 pt deamon horde I find that the challange has gone! So thats why my next army was the complete OPPOSITE to deamons - Orcs and Gobbos!!
I've yet to win a game with the buggers! (2 losses & 1 draw v's only 5- losses and millions of wins with chaos!)

phoenixlaw
23-03-2009, 07:58
So basically, lets cut half the damn options from the book?

The special characters I'll give you, since they are broken as hell across most armies and should never be taken in any of them. But other than that, I see no reason not to take any of the choices listed there, if the OP wants to use them. What if he wants to do a mixed Slaanesh-Khorne army (like my own, incidentally)? Then both his GD's are out of the question, as is one of his best Hero choices and an entire Special choice.

The OP should use whatever units he likes, for whatever reason, so long as it is something a little more substantial than just winning. A handful of WaaC players who have gotten their grubby mitts on the DoC book should not ruin it for those of us who collect them because we think they're an awesome, colourful, and characterful army.

DoC arn't perfect, of course, and there ARE flaws with the list that perhaps should be fixed, but banning choices in the book is not the answer.


MalusCalibur

Just to be clear on this... I wasn't saying we should ban anything. The OP was asking how to make a daemon army which isn't overpowered. I was just listing the either undercosted or broken units. Its possible to include some of them without making a broken list sure, but my point was - don't make a list just out of what I had written there. If you do just save it for tournaments as otherwise you'll run out of people to play.

Tokamak
23-03-2009, 08:24
I find that Mono-God lists apart from Khorne tend to be quite fun to play against.

Yeah, the book should have done more to promote such list instead of the cheesy combinations that are being made right now.

It just says allot about an army if you have to put effort in not making it too powerful to be fun...

Hvidponi
23-03-2009, 11:39
Just dont take trappings or balesword on your lord, and he is fine... Nurglings are great, and so is bloodletters... Beast of Nurgle are also fine considering thier massive point cost... Flesh hounds are not so nice but a unit of 5 wouldn't make it a broken list...

nosferatu1001
23-03-2009, 12:56
Suggestion from an alternative thread is to keep to sacred numbers, so 7 for nurgle, 8 for khorne etc, and multiples thereof.

For example have Fleshounds, but in units of 8 - hugely points inefficient. Similarly take PB but in units of 14, 21, 28 - similarly non optimised. By doing this you can reduce the effective points limit you have to work with, while still fielding quite a few models.

A friend of mine did this with her mono-khorne army - everything was a US multiple of 8, and the army was 2248 points (multiple of 8) - BT and heralds totalled US8, 24 bloodletters per units etc. At 2250 it is very competitive (thanks to 4th unit of letters) yet still fun to play as a strong magic phase can really hurt it.

Urgat
23-03-2009, 13:02
What if he wants to do a mixed Slaanesh-Khorne army (like my own, incidentally)?

He says he's big on fluff, so Slaanesh/Khorne is obviously out.

nosferatu1001
23-03-2009, 14:15
well according to current fluff Slaanesh / Khorne is allowed.....<ducks away>

Corrode
23-03-2009, 14:24
well according to current fluff Slaanesh / Khorne is allowed.....<ducks away>

The way that these mixed-God forces get described just makes me think of slash fiction. Khorne/Slaanesh m/m/forced/tentacles. :|

selone
23-03-2009, 14:25
Mono god demon armies would be fairly fun to play with and against wouldn't they? Mind you playing against an all nurgle army could be an exercise in frustration.

MalusCalibur
23-03-2009, 18:31
He says he's big on fluff, so Slaanesh/Khorne is obviously out.

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing that as well :S The fluff has never disallowed Khorne and Slaanesh mixing in a daemonic army-sure, they don't get along within the Realm of Chaos, but when Daemonic armies enter the mortal world for conquest, those differences are put aside. That is how it has always been, regardless of edition, and anyone accusing GW of 'messing with the fluff' when referring to the DoC book is finding things to complain about.

To the OP I'll reiterate my stance a little more clearly. Build an army you like, and put the effort into painting/converting it, to show any doubters where your focus lies. As was said, so long as you don't max out on every powerful choice in the book (and lets face it, almost all army books have broken builds in them), you're fine.


MalusCalibur

Urgat
23-03-2009, 18:49
Frankly, I'm sick of hearing that as well :S The fluff has never disallowed Khorne and Slaanesh mixing in a daemonic army-sure, they don't get along within the Realm of Chaos, but when Daemonic armies enter the mortal world for conquest, those differences are put aside.

Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other, and that used to be reflected ingame with the demonic animosity. Khorne and Nurgle or Slaanesh and Tzeench work, but the two other combinations are just not logical. I don't care much about the current state off dameons, but claiming taht before you could always mix all the chaos units freely is just as wrong, but peole tend to forget that.

Coram_Boy
23-03-2009, 18:49
i fail to see how warmachines are bad vs flesh hounds, for that matter shooting like handguns and crossbows is much more effective vs hounds then chaos knights.

Chaos knights also get more attacks ( a unit with mok rocks 25 total attacks, 15 str 5 10 str 4, or 1o str 5 5 str 4 from a regular unit)

20 crossbow wounds - 13.2 unsaved = roughly 6-7 dead hounds
2o crossbow wounds vs chaos knights - 3.2 unsaved.
10 crossbow wounds - 6.6 unsaved - 3 dead hounds
vs knights - 1.6 dead,
... That's assuming that you can get 20 crossbow wounds on a unit of hounds. Assuming that they're within half range, you would need to fire 40 crossbow shots to kill 6-7 hounds, if you were lucky. Do you have 40 crossbowmen in your army?
and how about, say, lore of metal? a spirit of the forge on a unit of knights will kill 6 on average. Against the fleshhounds, it only kills 0.7 hounds, if it gets through their magic resistance 3. or, perhaps some bolthrower shots to the side mabye, try comparing the damage done from that. See? I can choose my samples selectively too! Hounds are faster, can't be baited through frenzy, have more movement, Immune to Psychology, cause fear, cost 5 points less (even less if you buy a mark) and, very importantly, 2 wounds. Of course they aren't as good as chaos knights. I hate selective sampling - just because of the samples I chose, The whole result is often skewed. Incidentally, a 5+ ward is generally better than armor against warmachines, which generally ignore armor, if you hadn't noticed.

MSU
23-03-2009, 19:15
I read your post on the daemonic animosity and I dug out my old 4th edition book. It was something to the effect of if you had daemons from opposing gods within 12" at the start of one of your turns you had to roll a d6. With a 5-6 nothing happened, a 2-4 they couldn't move but would fight back normally, and a 1 they would actually run at each other and kill each other. Kind of a liability. I remember running bloodletters and a blood thirster on one half of the table and my flamers at least 30 inches away on the other side of the battle line so that this didn't happen.

The deamons have also come down on their stat line AND points cost too. A bloodthirster was a m8 (plus fly), WS10, S8, T7, 10W, 8I, 10A, and 10L monster that did d3 wounds for a whopping 800 points!

Other highlights included:
-magic weapons having NO effect on flesh hounds
-spells being auto dispelled on a flesh hound
-bloodletters doing d3 wounds
-all tzeentch wizards had a 4+ on a d6 auto dispel for any spell cast at them
-chaos warrior warhounds had 2 attacks each
-Lord of Change SC: Amon Chaki was a "Level 5 Wizard" (that is what was printed in the book)

One other thing, the flamers from 4th edition are almost the same now as they were then! I think it was now they have a few less movement and one less WS.

fubukii
24-03-2009, 00:27
... That's assuming that you can get 20 crossbow wounds on a unit of hounds. Assuming that they're within half range, you would need to fire 40 crossbow shots to kill 6-7 hounds, if you were lucky. Do you have 40 crossbowmen in your army?
and how about, say, lore of metal? a spirit of the forge on a unit of knights will kill 6 on average. Against the fleshhounds, it only kills 0.7 hounds, if it gets through their magic resistance 3. or, perhaps some bolthrower shots to the side mabye, try comparing the damage done from that. See? I can choose my samples selectively too! Hounds are faster, can't be baited through frenzy, have more movement, Immune to Psychology, cause fear, cost 5 points less (even less if you buy a mark) and, very importantly, 2 wounds. Of course they aren't as good as chaos knights. I hate selective sampling - just because of the samples I chose, The whole result is often skewed. Incidentally, a 5+ ward is generally better than armor against warmachines, which generally ignore armor, if you hadn't noticed.

true but if you look at the 10 crossbow wounds stats, killing 3 hounds basically cripples a normal unit of 5-6 hounds, while 1 or 2 dead chaos knights (especially if they mok) out of 5-6 isnt a big deal ( as 4 mok knights still rock out 12 str 5 and 8 str 4)


annd yes Obviously high str AP weapons will be better vs armor savesthen ward saves. What i was trying to say is that Normal weapons such as crossbows (which are core for most armies that can take them) are cheaper and more effective vs daemons, altho not as good vs high as models.

Voodoo Boyz
24-03-2009, 01:02
well according to current fluff Slaanesh / Khorne is allowed.....<ducks away>

Shhh!!!

We're supposed to ignore the current fluff for Daemons.

And the Fluff from waaaaaaaay back in the day when it was the same as now.

We're supposed to only count the fluff from a few years ago where certain Daemons hated each other.

And even then, while Khorne hated Slaanesh, really people still get mad if you allied him with Tzeench too, even though there's not fluff against that.

Lord Dan
24-03-2009, 01:30
Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other, and that used to be reflected ingame with the demonic animosity.

I'm glad someone finally brought that up.

Sarah S
24-03-2009, 01:38
Actually the Daemon animosity applied to any of the god combinations, so...

jason
24-03-2009, 01:48
Thanks for the replies. I think I will continue a holding pattern for now, as my Tomb Kings are going to be taking up my time. I just wanted to know how to "fill out" my list, and have it be as fun as possible. This whole post really stems from the fact that I have half an army on my shelf. Does anybody else out there have a half finished army? It makes me feel incomplete!

omgadinosaur
24-03-2009, 01:51
I just always thought it weird for a Lord of Change to lead a force of Plague Barres (sp) into Battle.



"I am the Lord of Change and i'm leading the troops of Stagnation to make the world BURN!"

Urgat
24-03-2009, 08:43
Shhh!!!

We're supposed to ignore the current fluff for Daemons.

And the Fluff from waaaaaaaay back in the day when it was the same as now.
We're supposed to only count the fluff from a few years ago where certain Daemons hated each other.
What fluff? Back then they didn't like each other anymore than they used to last edition. Just to be on the safe side, I just checked my Lost and the Damned copy:
I quote (about Slaanesh) "particular enemies are the followers of Khorne, whose belief in pain and death is completly opposed to Slaanesh's principle of a life of unrestricted pleasure."
And then, for Khorne: "the followers of Khorne treat Slaanesh worshippers as particular enemies. The two Powers personify entirely opposing concepts of the nature of Chaos".
So that's your fluff wayyyyyy back then (the first chaos armybook so to speak). Care to enlighten me as to how this is contrary to the belief that Khorne and Slaanesh troops don't work together?

Now I'm aware that fluff has changed massively since then, but still your point is very obviously wrong.

edit: I'll add that it was supported ingame too: there was that demon pact rule, and Khorne greater demons were not allowed to have Slaanesh demons as pact-allies, and vice-versa. The two others are fine though, but required tests to see if they even came (1-2 nobody came, 3-4 half the demons came, 5 all of them, 6 the greater demon came, with half again a chanec to have 50% of its troops coming).

O&G'sRule
24-03-2009, 11:29
Shhh!!!

We're supposed to ignore the current fluff for Daemons.

And the Fluff from waaaaaaaay back in the day when it was the same as now.

We're supposed to only count the fluff from a few years ago where certain Daemons hated each other.

And even then, while Khorne hated Slaanesh, really people still get mad if you allied him with Tzeench too, even though there's not fluff against that.

It does actually say in the current Slaanesh fluff that Khorne is the one god that doesn't like him(it)

theunwantedbeing
24-03-2009, 11:49
Dont take:
Special Characters (prettymucha given, not like they are manditory)
Plaguebearer BsB in a big unit of plaguebearers (bunker armies are boring)
Multiple units of Flesh hounds (1 is plenty)
Multiple small units of horrors (15+ powerdice is cool, as is 10+ dispel dice...but its not the most fun thing in the world to face)
Multiple big units of flamers (12d6 st4 shots a turn at you can be pretty horrific)
Multipel siren song gifts (just because...)

You can do whatever the hell you want so long as you dont do the above.
That does leave loads of scope, even for mono-god lists.

A daemon list is much more fun when you actually feel there's a chance you might beat it.
If you want a cripplingly weak list, take a mono-slaanesh army while sticking to the above.

W0lf
24-03-2009, 11:57
contrary topopular belief i actually think mono-god armies are the least fun to play/face.

mono-khorne is still highly abusive.
mono-nurgle while not broken is dullsvile and pts denial that makes WE cry
mono-Tz is ALWAYS a magical gunline... fun times
mono-slaanesh is ether incredibly weak or LD ****** to the pt of fustration.

They are all dull, fustrating, one-trick ponies. TBh the daemons book is just plain terrible.

Urgat
24-03-2009, 12:54
contrary topopular belief i actually think mono-god armies are the least fun to play/face.

mono-khorne is still highly abusive.
mono-nurgle while not broken is dullsvile and pts denial that makes WE cry
mono-Tz is ALWAYS a magical gunline... fun times
mono-slaanesh is ether incredibly weak or LD ****** to the pt of fustration.

They are all dull, fustrating, one-trick ponies. TBh the daemons book is just plain terrible.

I kind of agree, in fact. Problem is, non-monogods are just "let's pick the best unit of each god" (so lots of plague bearers, flesh hounds and flamers, usually). Someone show me an army with a core unit of each god, then one special of each god and whatever's left in rare? To be honest I've never seen that, and yet I kind of doubt it would not be efficient. But surely it's not the most efficient demon army, heh, so why bother.

W0lf
24-03-2009, 13:36
There at 2 or 3 thread i can remember about having 4x herald and 4x unit each from a diffrent God, use the search function.

Those lists are ofc fine/fun (not that ive seen one fielded ever) but i still cant shake of the fact i consider it 'wrong' to have all the Gods combined.

I guess im abit annoyed that Tzeentch daemons are such a terrible army for both player and opponent. Theres simply no fun in a magical gunline.