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hockeyhammer
23-03-2009, 11:04
when i started playing in 3rd ed. I remember facing some ridiculous and obscure forces, like the speed freaks with fighta bomma raids, and alaitoc pathfinder armies that could send half your army into reserve before the start of the game. I'm interested to hear about older and more ridiculous armies that existed before my time. feel free to post any ridiculous old special rules or army lists.

kaptin_blacksquigg
23-03-2009, 11:07
Kroot mercs with 100+ guys that could charge you turn 1 was fairly ridiculous.

Fay_Redd
23-03-2009, 11:10
Well. theres the Space Wolves with there OTT battle leaders, one of my regular opponents has his with frost axe (S5 power weapon) Cyclone Missile Launcher AND Assault Cannon.

Also there is the wolf charm or whatever it is that allows a re-roll of a failed save. now that might not sound like much but he has it on his wolf guard terminator units. Damned near invulnerable.

Last thing, wolf tooth necklace, always hits on 3+. This is on a unit of wolf guard all with power weapons.

the space wolves are just horribly out-of-date compared to what todays army lists are like.

hockeyhammer
23-03-2009, 11:14
Kroot mercs with 100+ guys that could charge you turn 1 was fairly ridiculous.

was that from one of the chapter approved books?

Doppleskanger
23-03-2009, 11:22
My favourite, possibly of all time, was the experimental Harlequin Codex. You had open topped skimmers made out of DE raiders and then big squads of Harlequins who assulted with the force of a huricane. The characters were great. The solitaire could carge 12 inches, but for every inch less than 12 that he charged he got an extra attack! It was great army to play with, and to play against, suprisingly. At 1500 pts it was less than 20 models and there was very little chance of actually winning. But this tiny little force would turn up and just start causing carnage, then slowly one by one,it would get smaller and smaller, untill there would just be one guy left in the middle of a mob of enenmy who would grind him into the dirt. Trully epic wargamming!

Grimtuff
23-03-2009, 11:23
Well. theres the Space Wolves with there OTT battle leaders, one of my regular opponents has his with frost axe (S5 power weapon) Cyclone Missile Launcher AND Assault Cannon.

Also there is the wolf charm or whatever it is that allows a re-roll of a failed save. now that might not sound like much but he has it on his wolf guard terminator units. Damned near invulnerable.

Last thing, wolf tooth necklace, always hits on 3+. This is on a unit of wolf guard all with power weapons.


First is illegal
Second is too (re-rolling the invulnerable save), although it makes no sense (see the FAQ). FWIW it is also once per battle.
Third is somewhat expensive, seeing as a WTN costs half as much as the WG wearing it.


My favourite, possibly of all time, was the experimental Harlequin Codex. You had open topped skimmers made out of DE raiders and then big squads of Harlequins who assulted with the force of a huricane. The characters were great. The solitaire could carge 12 inches, but for every inch less than 12 that he charged he got an extra attack! It was great army to play with, and to play against, suprisingly. At 1500 pts it was less than 20 models and there was very little chance of actually winning. But this tiny little force would turn up and just start causing carnage, then slowly one by one,it would get smaller and smaller, untill there would just be one guy left in the middle of a mob of enenmy who would grind him into the dirt. Trully epic wargamming!

So the 4+ invulnerable save Wraithlords had no part in their power then? Made even worse by the fact they were Elites and could be allied to a standard CWE army, 6 Wraithlords FTW!

carldooley
23-03-2009, 11:27
old lists old rules


when I first saw the old harlequin rules I bought a Solitaire on account that i could run it with any of my armies. I paid a lot of money for a model that looked wonderful... and then six months later the new eldar codex came out and I couldn't use it.

Gen.Steiner
23-03-2009, 11:29
They aren't ridiculous, but they are obscure...

Genestealer Cults
Lost and the Damned
Imperial Guard Garrisons
Chaos Cults

Raxmei
23-03-2009, 11:36
Craftworld Eldar was great for this. Iyanden had a funny trick. They could upgrade their warlocks to be spirit seers, basically paying five points to become independent characters. Then people noticed that that allowed you to put warlocks in squads that ordinarily aren't allowed to have warlocks and hilarity ensued. Then GW errata-ed that out and you could choose to spend five points for no benefit whatsoever.

The old Sisters of Battle codex had some funny bits. The all-male Sisters of Battle army was entirely possible, and actually not all that bad. If you go back in time to when Codex: Witchhunters came out you might see some people grumbling about losing Redemptionists.

Latro_
23-03-2009, 12:01
Iron Warriors
9 obilterators, vindicators etc...
Chaos lords with infiltrate + daemonic speed (first turn charges of doom).

The Clairvoyant
23-03-2009, 12:35
2nd ed: Shokk Attack Gun and give the mekboy Seeking Ammo so he hits on a 2+ instead of rolling the scatter dice. It was rather a loophole...

Land raiders - Use the vehicle conversion tables in Dark Millennium and remove the 2 twin-linked lascannons (-180pts), the twin-linked heavy bolters (-30ps) and the targeters (-6pts) and you get a tank for 4pts. Great as mobile terrain and for ramming or running over your opponents army :D

xinsanityx
23-03-2009, 12:48
Land raiders - Use the vehicle conversion tables in Dark Millennium and remove the 2 twin-linked lascannons (-180pts), the twin-linked heavy bolters (-30ps) and the targeters (-6pts) and you get a tank for 4pts. Great as mobile terrain and for ramming or running over your opponents army :D

Now that's ridiculously stupid, incredibly irritating to opponents, and just not a very well thought out idea. Vintage GW! :)

Mutantdale
23-03-2009, 13:12
Back in the early days with the dark millenium expansion.... Orks with Ogryn Heroes that carried a vortex grenade. Range was based on strength back then so they could throw it 12 inches.
I remember taking out a chimera with an inquisitor lord (over 400pts on his own) and a full heavy weapons team inside it.
Also having Abbadon and 6 terminator friends teleport in and charge and destroy 5 lemun russes in 1 turn... that was a laugh too.
Allies were fun..

We still chuckle about it..

Fixer
23-03-2009, 13:13
Orks in Rogue trader.
The ability of Orky weapons were rolled for on a table and then written on your army list before you even came to the fight. So obviously every Ork army list contained the best possible weapon you could get with minimal drawbacks.

2nd edition. Stuff in here was just too unbalanced to mention.
Virus grenades, Vortex grenades, Wolf guard terminators, Bloodthirster, the Eldar in general.

3rd edition.
The Eldar again. Imagine a gunline of Starcannons that can kill everything of worth in a Marine army (in 3rd edition this was marines in powered armor and Rhinos). Then, should you make it to the other side of the table you had Wraithlords who were unkillable by normal marines and unit sergeants could be picked out by it's 3 DCCW attacks so your powerfist would never get to strike, assuming that your powerfist was not mindwarred by a Farseer before it even got there.

The rhino rush armies of the day. You had regular marines who due to the old rapid fire rules were basically assault marines with one less attack in close combat. Black Templars came out, made all space marines fearless, charge towards you if hurt, hit on 3s and hid the powerfists on special weapons troopers. Also, your sweeping advances meant that you could smash through one unit into another and battles against shooty forces could end in one giant complicated melee.

Kal Taron
23-03-2009, 13:15
IIRC Codex CSM in 2nd had standard troops that were 3-20 and could take 3 heavy weapons. Guess where that leads us to...:wtf:

djinn8
23-03-2009, 13:27
Any 2nd Ed Chaos army that had a deamon prince was pretty ridiculous.

The Clairvoyant
23-03-2009, 13:28
IIRC Codex CSM in 2nd had standard troops that were 3-20 and could take 3 heavy weapons. Guess where that leads us to...:wtf:

yep, i remember my friend taking lots of squads of 3 heavy weapons. Backfired on him when he took a single casualty as suddenly and now had to make a break test as they'd taken 25% casualties! :D

Arbedark
23-03-2009, 13:29
Any 2nd Ed army was pretty ridiculous.

Fixed your post for you. :rolleyes:

Roachcoach
23-03-2009, 13:34
1st Ed rogue trader, spirit seers as 4th level psykers absuing temporal distort.

for anyone not that old imagine an unholy marrige of tigerus, njal stormcaller, bjron the fel handed, a furiso dread


and you're not even near how dangerous they were.

Sceleris
23-03-2009, 13:39
The daemon world list at the back of the 2nd Ed Chaos Codex was lethal - uber daemon princes (I think the nurgle one had 20 or so wounds and could regen), CSMs, old style lesser daemons, greater daemons the works. In comparison the other varient list was no-where near as powerful but more fun (traitors, beastmen, spawn etc - what evolved into the LatD list).

As mentioned above the Harlequin list was nasty, as were the old versions of the Grey Knights (squad of 5 inc libby was about 1000pts)

Doppleskanger
23-03-2009, 13:40
So the 4+ invulnerable save Wraithlords had no part in their power then? Made even worse by the fact they were Elites and could be allied to a standard CWE army, 6 Wraithlords FTW!

Not sure if we're talking the same list here. I mean Gav Thorpes experimental Harlequin Codex (Version 3.2 apparently). Dated June 2000.
Yes this could be used as elite choices in CWE, DE and Exodite armies, and any other army except chaos could take one unit as an elite choice. I never did though! Pure Harlequins and trying to shoot down tanks with just a couple of Death jesters was near impossible, I know I never managed it!

Not really very similar to the original pre 2nd ed list at all. less wargear and no war walkers, mini grenade launchers or digital weapons. And you couldn't stick the Kiss through a vehicles window and blend the occupants! Taking it as allies for a standard Eldar list would have been way over the top though.

Just checked and the Solitaire could have up to twelve I8, WS 8, S4 attacks, which could be variously power weapons, poisoned weapons with instant death on a roll to wound of a 6, or power weapons with instand death on a roll to wound of a 6. For around 120pts. Gulp!

Saying all that I played the list about 7 or 8 times, scored one very minor victory and lost every other game severely.

Kaelarr
23-03-2009, 13:44
Doombreed, N'Kari, Foulspawn and the other one. They were all rude.

The 2nd ed IG tank army led by old Solar Mac, all started off the board, all fired before 1st turn, then rolled on on thier 1st turn. Rude.

Also the wolf terminator army of doom. All had cyclones, all had assault cannons and then N'Jal to make em go first. Bah!

Jerrus
23-03-2009, 13:44
Back in 2ed a friend of mine liked to field a Gretchin Standard Bearer with Mega Armour and a Multi Melta, just for laughs :)

Rirekon
23-03-2009, 13:44
Old school Plague Marines with those stupid persistent Blight Grenades, they'd spam them all over the objective and laugh as they wandered through totally immune while you would have to pass a dozen rolls (each turn!) or die.

Count de Monet
23-03-2009, 13:59
My favourite, possibly of all time, was the experimental Harlequin Codex. You had open topped skimmers made out of DE raiders and then big squads of Harlequins who assulted with the force of a huricane. The characters were great. The solitaire could carge 12 inches, but for every inch less than 12 that he charged he got an extra attack! It was great army to play with, and to play against, suprisingly. At 1500 pts it was less than 20 models and there was very little chance of actually winning. But this tiny little force would turn up and just start causing carnage, then slowly one by one,it would get smaller and smaller, untill there would just be one guy left in the middle of a mob of enenmy who would grind him into the dirt. Trully epic wargamming!

I had a friend who made an 'army' of those, had tons of fun fighting the super-elite mini force with my horde of guardsmen. :)

baphomael
23-03-2009, 14:11
Any 2nd Ed Chaos army that had a deamon prince was pretty ridiculous.

What, the Daemon World armylists? Hehehe, it let me use my fantasy chaos army in 40k :D

Though yes, those daemon princes were wrong in many ways. 20 wound foulspawn that regenerated wounds when it eats the enemy?


Though I think the Eldar win for sick and wrong 2nd ed armies.

Sleazy
23-03-2009, 14:44
The Gav Thorpe harlies were loadsa fun, rock hard too! I remember using them Vs Catachans with jungle fight rules, not many others capable of wiping out 'chans in those circumstances.

Chem-Dog
23-03-2009, 15:44
Orks in Rogue trader.
The ability of Orky weapons were rolled for on a table and then written on your army list before you even came to the fight. So obviously every Ork army list contained the best possible weapon you could get with minimal drawbacks.

I knew somebody who'd rolled really well on the Eldar Avatar's random stats (yes, it did!) and ran with those forevermore.


Any 2nd Ed Chaos army that had a deamon prince was pretty ridiculous.

If ever there was an Auto Win Button.....
They stopped short of saying "make it up as you go along" for self written DP's....


1st Ed rogue trader, spirit seers as 4th level psykers absuing temporal distort.

for anyone not that old imagine an unholy marrige of tigerus, njal stormcaller, bjron the fel handed, a furiso dread

Yeah Temporal Distort AKA "Enjoy your shooting phase? Wanna do it again?"

In 2nd ed, a Blood Angels army was pretty nasty, especially if you're playing about 1500 and insist (as I often did) on bringing all 295 points of Mephiston with you, I actually hoped my buddy would bring Abbadon: Mephiston + Prescience + Hatred = OUCH

Lord Damocles
23-03-2009, 15:50
Not sure if we're talking the same list here. I mean Gav Thorpes experimental Harlequin Codex (Version 3.2 apparently). Dated June 2000.
The experimental Harlequin list was updated a month or two after it was first published in Citadel Journal: adding Harlequin Wraithlords, Mime Troupes, and more Death Jeaster weapon options.

I think that the Wraithlords actually had a 4+ cover save, but still, for what, 80pts? they were totally sick.


EDIT: Yep, Citadel Journal 44, pg.36-39.
The Wraithlord was 95pts base (didn't have to take ranged weapon upgrade) and got a 4+ cover save, halved the opponant's weapons skill in close combat, and had a Mask of Fear (as per 'normal' harlequins).

IAMNOTHERE
23-03-2009, 15:52
I remember those temporal distort days, my Genestealer cult list had 4 L4 psychers all with this. Those stealers could go 48" in a single turn, often the first one.

sliganian
23-03-2009, 16:06
Chaos Cultists list from WD back in 3rd edition.

Great! Now my CSM's have a plentiful "One-Way-Mirror" unit to shoot through!

Remember how BAD the rules used to be on some things? Yeah....

Roachcoach
23-03-2009, 16:08
Telekineses was great too.

Fixer
23-03-2009, 16:14
Ahh yes, the one way mirror.

You cannot shoot at the hive tyrant as it is behind my warriors.
You cannot shoot my warriors because they are behind my genestealers.
You cannot shoot my genestealers because they are behind my gaunts.
You cannot shoot my gaunts because they are behind my rippers.

Yes, an entire army of Tyranids hidden behind tiny little cat sized hoppy things with teeth.

Nym
23-03-2009, 16:19
Any vehicle heavy list in 2nd edition.

When you managed to damage a vehicle, you had to roll on a crazy table to see what was broken. For the Wraithlord for example, if you rolled a 2 for a damage to the legs, the thing moved 1d3x1" in a random direction, tank-shocking anything it made contact with. There were at least 4 or 5 different results for each body part (for Dreadnoughts it usually meant Legs, Left arm, Right arm, Head, and for Walkers Legs, Weapons or Pilot / Engine).

Oh, and Jetbikes also had such a table... See where it brings us ?

Because of this, any game against a Vehicle heavy army usually took 3 days to complete, so it was better to just resign at the beginning...

"I move toward your Bloodthirster and smash it."
"You can't, I broke your left turn signal so it would be illegal to turn left !"
"Ok so I charge your Rhino."
"Ok, but remember you only have 3 attacks left because I broke your middle finger with my lascannon."

IJW
23-03-2009, 16:24
Yeah Temporal Distort AKA "Enjoy your shooting phase? Wanna do it again?"
The most extreme version of that was a huge game with one side consisting of two units of 5 Grey Knight Terminators and a GK Captain - all level 4 Psykers, with enough Temporal Distorts rolled between them that the Genestealer Cult army on the other side never got a movement phase, shooting phase or psychic phase. :eek:

Doppleskanger
23-03-2009, 16:33
@Lord Damocles
WOW never saw that! Yeah that would pretty much break the list I'd guess.

The funniest bit with the version I had was that you could kill tanks in close combat quite easily but they then exploded and killed half of the squad!
Adding effective anti-tank would be a step too far.
(Of course now i need a copy of that list)

Bookwrak
23-03-2009, 16:46
Ahh yes, the one way mirror.

You cannot shoot at the hive tyrant as it is behind my warriors.
You cannot shoot my warriors because they are behind my genestealers.
You cannot shoot my genestealers because they are behind my gaunts.
You cannot shoot my gaunts because they are behind my rippers.

Yes, an entire army of Tyranids hidden behind tiny little cat sized hoppy things with teeth.

Ah yes, the dread conga line of doom. Rather amusing to reminisce about now that it's dead and gone.

Sceleris
23-03-2009, 17:02
Anyone remember the robot design system where you could both create a stat line for a robot and make order systems for them.

Friend made T10 mansized robots with lascannons, 2+ save, disguised and with massively complex seek and destroy orders. Cost a couple of hundred points each but were practically untouchable.

Bookwrak
23-03-2009, 17:21
I actually have the WD Rules compendium with those rules in it on my bookshelf. If I remember correctly, the robots actually had a flowchart you had to follow to determine their actions.

Also, it states how both the the Loyalist and Traitor forces made heavy use of robots during the Horus Heresy in order to minimize casualties. :p

Grazzy
23-03-2009, 17:28
The eldar have had the most ridiculous armies in my time. 60 man seer councils, harlequin solitaires and starcannon spam were all scary.

Iron Warriors were simply ridiculous - 9 oblits and 4 tanks was just about undefeatable. I remember being told about one UK GT final where at one point the top 10 tables were 19 Iron warrior/seer councils and 1 other army!!

Alfonzo
23-03-2009, 17:55
They guy who got me into 40k (3rd edition) did the conga line thing with a unit of fortuned guardians as the front line. If they managed to die it was the large fortuned seer council that stepped forward.

Oh, and for Mind War, you could still activate it in close combat back then. :rolleyes:

sliganian
23-03-2009, 18:26
Ahh yes, the one way mirror.

You cannot shoot at the hive tyrant as it is behind my warriors.
You cannot shoot my warriors because they are behind my genestealers.
You cannot shoot my genestealers because they are behind my gaunts.
You cannot shoot my gaunts because they are behind my rippers.

Yes, an entire army of Tyranids hidden behind tiny little cat sized hoppy things with teeth.

On fun thing from 3rd edition that would be still neat to have IF you could consolidate into Combat in 5th:
Sweeping Advance Fire.

sukigod
23-03-2009, 19:14
2nd ed: Shokk Attack Gun and give the mekboy Seeking Ammo so he hits on a 2+ instead of rolling the scatter dice. It was rather a loophole...



Gotta give him Telly-skopik Legs too! Hide him behind a bush, popup attack!

That and 10 squigg katapults lobbing persistant squigg bombs all over the board. Took more time to move all my squggs than the rest of the army.

PapaDoc
23-03-2009, 19:44
Third edition Blood Angels in rhinos anybody?

sliganian
23-03-2009, 20:18
Gotta give him Telly-skopik Legs too! Hide him behind a bush, popup attack!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

You just reminded me about the old 'Crystal Targetting Matrix' tricks of the Eldar Falcons / Vypers. :cheese:

I'm going to go somewhere and rock back-and-forth in the fetal position and think about removing my models from the table and being unable to do anything about it. :mad:

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
23-03-2009, 20:36
So, basically, Chaos and Eldar have been top tier in most every edition? Scary.

AndrewGPaul
23-03-2009, 22:52
Ahhh, 2nd edition. :)

I'll have a squad of 20 Wolf Guard Terminators each with Assault Cannon, Storm Shields and Cyclone Missile Launchers. :)

Or perhaps you leave your Wolf Guard in power armour - then they can all get heavy weapons, with a BS of 5 and a targeter. - that means they still hit you on a 2+ even if you're behind a hedge.

Ragnar Blackmane was fun, too. Despite his wargear being a ripoff (paying 20 points for what was effectively a boltpistol and chainsword), he prodded **** in melee. And he had a 4+ invulnerable dodge save against shooting.

In Rogue Trader, it wasn't just Orks who got random equipment tables - Everyone did. Problem was, half the results were crap - Pay 10 points for your Marine Captain to roll on the Special Weapon table - Oh look; a musket. :(

And then there were the Eldar Exarch powers. Every Exarch got two random special abilities. I played against one Banshee Exarch whose abilities allowed her to follow up 4" if she killed all her opponents in melee, and another power that let her fight another melee instantly. That one model butchered almost all of my army - left me with a actical combat squad against 2,000 points of Eldar

The Clairvoyant
24-03-2009, 00:01
Gotta give him Telly-skopik Legs too! Hide him behind a bush, popup attack!

I always gave the telescopic legz to nazdreg carrying a lascannon. BS of 6, targeter and telescopic legz was the downfall of many an opponent :D
[/QUOTE]

My chaos-playing friend would also take a Terminator Lord with all 4 marks (2+ save on 2D6 with reroll from an ability i forget the name of), Level 4 Psyker, immune to psychology and T6 with Daemon weapon (+2WS), frenzon (hatred) and Stormshield (4+ unmodified save) and a powerfield (2+ unmod against shooting)

He was so ridiculous in combat he never needed to take any saves and shooting him was basically a waste of time!

The_Outsider
24-03-2009, 00:30
So, basically, Chaos and Eldar have been top tier in most every edition? Scary.

Is it then a coincidence most of the whining has come from those two groups?

I think not.

As for stupid armies: the original 3rd ed IG gunline - virtually untouchable.

Raxmei
24-03-2009, 00:56
Ah, 3rd ed screening rules. So many shenanigans.

Dangersaurus
24-03-2009, 01:04
Ahh yes, the one way mirror.

You cannot shoot at the hive tyrant as it is behind my warriors.
You cannot shoot my warriors because they are behind my genestealers.
You cannot shoot my genestealers because they are behind my gaunts.
You cannot shoot my gaunts because they are behind my rippers.

Yes, an entire army of Tyranids hidden behind tiny little cat sized hoppy things with teeth.

To be fair: in 2nd edition.... (and here Dangersaurus goes blah blah blah blah for a bit)


EDIT: Durr. Pretty much my whole comprehension of your post was wrong. I thought it was about 2nd, but it was about 3rd. Sorry!

Nym
24-03-2009, 01:12
EDIT: Durr. Pretty much my whole comprehension of your post was wrong. I thought it was about 2nd, but it was about 3rd. Sorry!

It's strange though, because 3rd edition Tyranids had "Shoot the big ones" which allowed you to pick basically any target.

Xynok
24-03-2009, 01:21
The good old days of thrown grenades... hahaha back when the only thing you could do to an ork to make it stand differently was to move the arm with the slugga

tristessa
24-03-2009, 12:15
It's strange though, because 3rd edition Tyranids had "Shoot the big ones" which allowed you to pick basically any target.

Only after the codex got released.

Doppleskanger
24-03-2009, 12:43
So kind of to get back on topic...
Apart from the present set of codexes, and the missing Chaos legions, what armies have there been over time?
I'll start with
Harlequins
Kroot Mercenaries
Genestealer Cults
Relictors
Black Dragons (?)
Ork/Genestealer Hybrids (not sure if this was just a unit or a full list)
Lost and Damned

What's missing?

The Clairvoyant
24-03-2009, 13:03
Squats (MIA since 2nd edition)
Slann (MIA since Rogue Trader) - frogmen with lasguns
Jokaero (MIA since Rogue Trader) - orangutans who pretty much invented digital weapons. i can't remember if they had a full set of rules or not

Korras
24-03-2009, 13:19
Squats (MIA since 2nd edition)
Slann (MIA since Rogue Trader) - frogmen with lasguns
Jokaero (MIA since Rogue Trader) - orangutans who pretty much invented digital weapons. i can't remember if they had a full set of rules or not

jokaero still exist in the fluff, IIRC. they can't really be captured: they always build things to escape. :wtf:

Doppleskanger
24-03-2009, 13:28
I think I remember them having stats, but they definitely didn't have an army list. The RT book had quite a lot of different animals and sub-species in it that can't be considered to have been armies.

Also

Iron hands
Assasins (2nd ed codex, no idea how it's used to make an army)

Corrode
24-03-2009, 13:34
I believe Codex: Assassins was a Marine Chapter style supplement - 'use this Codex to take Assassins in your Imperial army'.

The Clairvoyant
24-03-2009, 13:36
2nd ed Assassins codex (i think) just replaced the standard assassin entry in the Imperial Agents army list from the black codex.

Of course the Imperial agents list was then split al over the place and most of it i suspect is still in current rules, though i haven't read the witchhunter/daemonhunters/sisters of battle lists.

Agents included assassins, inquisitors, adeptus psykers (can't remember the name they were given), grey knights, adeptus arbites, adeptus sororitas (sisters of battle), colonels and confessors (thats all i can remember. I haven't looked at that booklet in a very long time!)

Though agents could be used as an army in its own right, it was more commonly used as allies for guard or marine lists.

Roachcoach
24-03-2009, 13:40
Ahhh, 2nd edition. :)

I'll have a squad of 20 Wolf Guard Terminators each with Assault Cannon, Storm Shields and Cyclone Missile Launchers. :)

Or perhaps you leave your Wolf Guard in power armour - then they can all get heavy weapons, with a BS of 5 and a targeter. - that means they still hit you on a 2+ even if you're behind a hedge.

My personal preference was terminator armour and lightning claws. Those things on the charge were the equal to genestealers in melee. Except they had terminator armour and S8 :cheese:






Edit:

Suprised its not been mentioned yet but: Any use of virus weapons whatsoever vs orcs or anything else not in power armour (or a tyranid).

tsutek
24-03-2009, 13:42
Reading all this makes me realize that the biggest downfall of 2nd ed 40k was caused by dropping the GM. Those army lists just had way too many holes in them..

No wonder that the lists and rules are what they are ATM.

The Clairvoyant
24-03-2009, 13:43
Except every ork player worth his salt took a painboy with vaxxine squig (68points) to make them immune to virus grenades and the virus outbreak strategy card. It didn't take long for GW to realise their mistake with the virus outbreak card. i think the ork codex came out about 3 months after Dark Millennium

edward3h
24-03-2009, 13:43
So kind of to get back on topic...

Ork/Genestealer Hybrids (not sure if this was just a unit or a full list)

Ork/Genestealer Hybrids were one of many Freebootaz units for the Orks list in Rogue Trader.


What's missing?

I remember a Citadel Journal with a 'Space Pirates' codex for 2nd Ed. Very bad - it was all peg legs and eyepatches and parrots... In Space!

Adeptus Arbites have been done in various ways over the years.

Arbedark
24-03-2009, 13:47
So kind of to get back on topic...
Apart from the present set of codexes, and the missing Chaos legions, what armies have there been over time?
I'll start with
Harlequins
Kroot Mercenaries
Genestealer Cults
Relictors
Black Dragons (?)
Ork/Genestealer Hybrids (not sure if this was just a unit or a full list)
Lost and Damned

What's missing?

There was a Black Dragons list?

PaddyF
24-03-2009, 13:57
2nd Ed Eldar
Warp Spider Exarch with Quick Shot and two Vortex Grenades. Turn 1 teleport next to enemy throw one grenade at biggest tank, the other one at the generals unit.

Chaos
Terminators with Mark of Khorne (2+ armour save on 2d6) also with the Mark of Slaneesh so he can use a Blastmaster (D6+4 str 2" radius blast marker). The Chaos codex was great with all the fluff and what not but was so open to abuse.

3rd Edition Space Wolves
Wolf Guard with Master Crafted Plasma Cannons

All that comes to mind atm.

Bookwrak
24-03-2009, 14:15
I'm pretty sure you mean a '3+ save on 2d6.' Snake eyes was the only way to fail, and god damn them if they had a reroll.

Doppleskanger
24-03-2009, 14:16
Well, i can't quite remember what the story was with the Black dragons is, hence the question mark. I think there was a chapter approved article, which replaced some of the unit options from the marine codex with rules for the Black dragons and their bony elbows. It would have been similar to the Iron Hands list in that way, but I'm not so sure about it.

Also
13th company had a list in codex eye of terror. Not sure if that list is still considered legal or not.

Korras
24-03-2009, 14:17
3rd Edition Space Wolves
Wolf Guard with Master Crafted Plasma Cannons

All that comes to mind atm.
and people still say that Wolves are underpowered. :p

PaddyF
24-03-2009, 14:18
I'm pretty sure you mean a '3+ save on 2d6.' Snake eyes was the only way to fail, and god damn them if they had a reroll.

Mark of Khorne improved the save by 1 so terminators with the Mark of Khorne had 2+ on 2D6 armour save.

NotMyIfurita
24-03-2009, 14:28
Of course, 2nd ed had armor save mods, so 2+ on 2D6 was not always 2+

MasterDecoy
24-03-2009, 15:18
Of course, 2nd ed had armor save mods, so 2+ on 2D6 was not always 2+

almost never in fact?

sliganian
24-03-2009, 16:01
Well, i can't quite remember what the story was with the Black dragons is, hence the question mark. I think there was a chapter approved article, which replaced some of the unit options from the marine codex with rules for the Black dragons and their bony elbows. It would have been similar to the Iron Hands list in that way, but I'm not so sure about it.

Also
13th company had a list in codex eye of terror. Not sure if that list is still considered legal or not.


Yeah, there was a WD article ages ago about "The Cursed Founding". It had Relictors, Black Dragon, Flame Falcons (iirc), possibly 'Minotaurs' as well. None of it would be legal now anyways.

As for 13th Co., I don't know what their status would be. Technically, they might still be valid (as Space Wolves are still valid).

itcamefromthedeep
24-03-2009, 16:48
almost never in fact?
Even flashlights had a save modifier.

The Clairvoyant
24-03-2009, 17:05
Autoguns didn't though.

Thats about the only thing i can think of that was commonly used (albeit by gretchin) that had no save mod

The_Outsider
24-03-2009, 21:43
The 13th co list is technically legal (though no GT would allow it), but then again, GW have enver truly defined what is legal and what isn't.

lantzkev
24-03-2009, 23:41
not sure if its been mmentioned but ork catapults and as many as you can carrying squig gernades... nothing like forty templates roaming the field eatting everything but orks and tyranids!

AntiPaladin
26-03-2009, 05:14
Let's see, most broken stuff ever?

2nd ed -

As somebody mentioned, 20 wolfguard all with assault cannons (which could get up to 9 shots each back then) storm shields, and cyclones. But wait, it gets worse. You can keep all those in reserve and teleport them into battle. Now, you take a Captain, give him a teleport homer, and put nothing else on the board. When you decide it's time, you drop the teleport homer, bring in all your termies, and unload. Your opponent now has 1, I repeat, 1 turn to counter-attack, because during your next movement phase you teleport all of the termies out. Since they didn't die, your opponent gets no VPs. So the only thing for them to shoot at is the lowly Captain you spent less than 100 points on. And if you kill the Captain before he drops the homer, oh well, your termies will now scatter d6 inches.

This is rivaled only by the Squat (not IG) gunline. Thunderers count as troops, come in 5-20 models, and EVERY SINGLE ONE GETS A HEAVY WEAPON! Stick them behind cover with a Great Ancestor and they all now get a 4++ save as well.

3rd ed, nothing will ever be as broken as BBB Eldar. "Hi, I'm playing Iyanden. Thus, Wraithlords count as Troops and Heavy, and I don't have to take anything else."

Filthy O'Bedlam
26-03-2009, 06:01
Anyone remember the robot design system where you could both create a stat line for a robot and make order systems for them.

Friend made T10 mansized robots with lascannons, 2+ save, disguised and with massively complex seek and destroy orders. Cost a couple of hundred points each but were practically untouchable.

Yeah, I have the old old WD that those rules are in. They are a whole lotta fun

Steel Legion for Life
06-04-2009, 09:49
The other thing people are forgetting about the old school cyclones is you could fire all the missiles at once. Each missile gave you a 1/2 inch blast radius, so the full 12 missile salvo was about the size of an apocalypse blast template, at strength 8 with a -4 save modifier.

Equally, the Assault cannon of the day was strength 8 as well.

I think the most heinous lists were the Gav Thorpe era Blood Angels.

You got in your overcharged rhino, and drove 18". Then your driver got angry and engaged "Black Rage" gear for an extra 6" move. Then you disembark the full 2", and then assault 6" - so that's a 32" assault move.

You could then sweeping advance 12", meaning a total possible move of 44" inches - being angry made you twice as fast as a speeding skimmer! The most offensive thing was all other armies couldn't disembark from transports moving over 12", but Mr.Thorpe explained this away by saying that Blood Angels practice rolling out of moving transports all day. That's the best kind of Fluff; the kind created to explain stupid rules decisions.

At this point, Death Company were free, and the only things in the game with feel no pain. Oh, did I say Feel No Pain - It's a better version of it.

Basically, the way the rules worked, you bought a chaplain for 180 points, who gave you the chaplain and three assault marines with jumppacks or a free rhino. Now, the chaplain and jump-pack/rhino would have been about 130 points, so 50 points got you three free assault marines. Pretty good deal with standard assault marines at 25 pts each?

Oh, wait, these are feel no pain assault marines. With more movement. And more attacks. Oh, and it's not 3 marines, it's 3 marines + D3 extra marines. So at least 4.

And, every squad rolled for death company, with a 50% chance of becoming death company. Bad for terminators (as if any Blood Angel player ever took them), good for scouts. Also, if a veteran sergeant joined the death company, he got a free powerfist. An untargettable powerfist.

So, the power gamers would take their troops allocation as 6 5-man scout squads with veteran sergeants, at 70 points each. These had a 50/50 chance of furnishing you with an assault marine sergeant with Feel no pain and a power fist and extra movement.

A model which would have cost 50 points if you bought him in an assault squad. So, basically, you paid 15 points for 4 scouts! Also, if you rolled a "1" on your death company roll, you rolled again, and thus got to exchange scouts for Feel no pain extra move assault marines.

Of course, this was such a bargain people didn't just want one chaplain. They usually had two. Forming one huge assault squad. And want to know the best thing of all? The Death Company weren't worth any Victory points AT ALL. (Fluff justification - "The Death Company are dead to the blood angels now")

You bought the chaplain. Everything else was free. So, no matter how many Death company you killed, they were worth nothing. You had to kill the chaplains, and that only happened after you'd killed 6+2d3+3 (on average) assault marines with 3+ saves, 4+ feel no pain saves.

Just to compare the cost to normal assault marines and chaplains at the time, which are much worse, with less attacks and less movement:-

Ten Assault marines = 250
Two Chaplains = 140
Vet Assault Sergeant with a Powerfist =50
Total =430

Two Death Company Chaplains with 6+2D3 Death Company = 360

Pretty silly eh?

On top of that, on average of three Scout Sergeants become death company with untargetable powerfists, And one Scout becomes Death company.

What was even better was when they let Matt Sprange (Game Design experience - zero) write a WD list for his own army, the Fleshtearers, which could have been subtitled "IA Fleshtearers - Blood Angels, but better in every way". They basically were blood angels, who black raged twice as often, got more Death Company, and cost less points.

I think the "limitation" was you had to use Matt Sprange's Ham-Fisted, retard-dancing-in-a-paint-shop colour scheme, which basically involved painting all your marines the colour of cheap ham.

shin'keiro
06-04-2009, 10:13
Harlequins with land raiders in their army... (rogue trader edition):)

Fixer
06-04-2009, 10:28
I think the most heinous lists were the Gav Thorpe era Blood Angels.

There were a lot of stupid balance decisions back in that era. I think giving Gav Thorpe access to any kind of army book project was a bad idea. Let me repost what I said when Gav Thorpe left the company:




Personally I will not be sad to see Gav go. As a Dark Elves fantasy player you can easilly understand why.

Dark Elves army book! Before the minor alterations that made them just barely competetive by swarming the fields with downpriced warriors.
He made Cold one knights slower because the models looked slow. Made them stupid in an elite glass cannon army so they would have to be babysit by a noble so that they could be relied on to do something more than 2/3rds of the time. Despite apparently basing model stats on appearance he put Dark Elf executioners in light armor despite the fact they were clad from head to toe in elven plate and chain. Giving us a T3 special unit with weapons striking last and next to no save so they would be ripped to shreds by almost any basic infantry after a charge.

Monsters that moved faster than their handlers so that if they charged the handlers were left behind.

Terrible magical weapons options.

An overpriced and relatively useless assassin, that despite being the most deadly warrior in flff, in game terms is worse than a rat with a bad attitude.

A beastmaster that basically worked out to be a hat for a monster whos only saving grace was that his pets didn't run off when he inevitably died.

The Dark Lord Of Naggaroth with an awesome 2+ ward save, which just happens to be bypassed by every single magical weapon or attack in the game meaning that a hideously expensive model was in dire threat of being killed by a goblin with a biting blade.

Yeah, I wont be missing Gav Thorpe's gaming insight anytime soon :S

but as bad as the stupid random balance of Blood Angels was, they were ultimately trumped by Black Templars. Always hit on 3s? Fearless? Charge forward when shot? Every unit has an untargetable power fist? Drawback? You lose access to some of the worst options in the army!

Steel Legion for Life
06-04-2009, 10:51
Indeed;

I recall a burly ex-con regular, on losing to Blood Angels due to a first turn assault, swearing that if he ever saw Thorpe at Games Day, he'd,

"Smack 'im the marf, shoutin' BLACK RAGE THIS, THORPE!"

IJW
06-04-2009, 11:17
He made Cold one knights slower because the models looked slow. Made them stupid in an elite glass cannon army so they would have to be babysit by a noble so that they could be relied on to do something more than 2/3rds of the time.
[...]
Monsters that moved faster than their handlers so that if they charged the handlers were left behind.
In his defence (on these points only), Cold Ones and anyone riding a Cold One had been subject to Stupidity in pretty well every previous edition of the game. Saying that Gav made them stupid is rather misleading.

The same goes for monsters and beasts with a higher movement than their handlers leaving them trailing on the charge, such as Wood Elf Beastmasters with anything but bears, and even Skaven Rat Ogre handlers.

Skyrir
07-04-2009, 03:46
Old chaos nurgle prince was unholy Raep. Not even worth attcking cuz of the ridiculous # of wounds.

Brimstone
07-04-2009, 09:29
Personal attacks on other members of the forum breach our rules and will be treated appropriately.

The Warseer Inquisition

Grimtuff
07-04-2009, 09:42
I'm pretty sure you mean a '3+ save on 2d6.' Snake eyes was the only way to fail, and god damn them if they had a reroll.

Correct. Unless your name is Abaddon! :eek: Chaos Terminator Armour FTW!

Irisado
07-04-2009, 10:06
The most ridiculous army list I ever faced was back in second edition, when a former friend of mine, who was admittedly a power gamer, came up with a Space Marine army led by Azrael, Ezekiel, and that really nasty Dark Angels command squad. The rest of the army consisted of five units of Terminators, three Dreadnoughts, and just one unit of regular Marines in power armour!

My Eldar and Orks both faced this army, and were utterly slaughtered, since I was just feeling a regular force on both occasions (I never did like power gaming, and I still don't).

the1stpip
07-04-2009, 10:12
Hpow about the 3.5 chaos codex, 250 pt Daemon Prince (Bike, Chaos Armour (tourbo boosting gave you a 2+ inv) Daemonic Rune (immune to instant death), +1 w, +1 T, +1 S and a personal icon.

Then about 80 Daemonettes, Prince driving up the board, turn 2, lots of lovely daemonettes to assault, all with rending. Ouch!

the1stpip
07-04-2009, 10:13
Correct. Unless your name is Abaddon! :eek: Chaos Terminator Armour FTW!

In 2nd ed, Khornate Termies had a 2+ save on 2d6.

The 2nd ed Nurgle Damon Prince had 30 wounds IIRC. And could regain them in combat.

Grazzy
07-04-2009, 11:47
The most hilarious lists from when I have played are

a) cheesed out 3rd ed BA with 1800 odd points in a 1500 point game.
b) a 60 man fortuned seer council
c) Entirely wraithlord armies
d) 3.5 ed daemon bomb

Jerrus
07-04-2009, 14:25
2nd ed Assassins codex (i think) just replaced the standard assassin entry in the Imperial Agents army list from the black codex.

Of course the Imperial agents list was then split al over the place and most of it i suspect is still in current rules, though i haven't read the witchhunter/daemonhunters/sisters of battle lists.

Agents included assassins, inquisitors, adeptus psykers (can't remember the name they were given), grey knights, adeptus arbites, adeptus sororitas (sisters of battle), colonels and confessors (thats all i can remember. I haven't looked at that booklet in a very long time!)

Though agents could be used as an army in its own right, it was more commonly used as allies for guard or marine lists.

lol, the things one could do with that list....

Imagine the look on your opponents face when you replace one of his models with an Assasin in Terminator Armour with a Jump Pack and Polymorphine.

Threeshades
07-04-2009, 14:49
Gotta give him Telly-skopik Legs too! Hide him behind a bush, popup attack!

That and 10 squigg katapults lobbing persistant squigg bombs all over the board. Took more time to move all my squggs than the rest of the army.

Also known as Mek-In-The-Box phenomenon :D

Awilla the Hun
07-04-2009, 16:39
Reading this, I'm thankful that I never played 2nd edition warhammer.

Tennboy
07-04-2009, 16:46
I always gave the telescopic legz to nazdreg carrying a lascannon. BS of 6, targeter and telescopic legz was the downfall of many an opponent :D


My chaos-playing friend would also take a Terminator Lord with all 4 marks (2+ save on 2D6 with reroll from an ability i forget the name of), Level 4 Psyker, immune to psychology and T6 with Daemon weapon (+2WS), frenzon (hatred) and Stormshield (4+ unmodified save) and a powerfield (2+ unmod against shooting)

He was so ridiculous in combat he never needed to take any saves and shooting him was basically a waste of time![/QUOTE]

2 Words: Stasis Grenade

If I remember correctly back in 2nd ed. you could target terrain and points on the board. So you just throw the grenade at the point right in front of his feet and he caught in the 2" radius stasis bubble. No armor or field save cause there is no damage, only thing that can save them is if they had a dodge save. :D Nothing happens to the model, it just cant do anything for the rest of the game.

Tennboy
07-04-2009, 16:47
My chaos-playing friend would also take a Terminator Lord with all 4 marks (2+ save on 2D6 with reroll from an ability i forget the name of), Level 4 Psyker, immune to psychology and T6 with Daemon weapon (+2WS), frenzon (hatred) and Stormshield (4+ unmodified save) and a powerfield (2+ unmod against shooting)

He was so ridiculous in combat he never needed to take any saves and shooting him was basically a waste of time!

2 Words: Stasis Grenade

If I remember correctly back in 2nd ed. you could target terrain and points on the board. So you just throw the grenade at the point right in front of his feet and he caught in the 2" radius stasis bubble. No armor or field save cause there is no damage, only thing that can save them is if they had a dodge save. :D Nothing happens to the model, it just cant do anything for the rest of the game.

Alessander
07-04-2009, 16:54
WHen the Realms of Chaos books came out, you could randomly get an absolutely game-breaking model. Huge damon prince with nearly top stats, could reflect any incoming fire back at the firer, had a daemon weapon that had a greater daemon inside it.. if the prince died, the greater daemon comes out to take revenge. Loophole was that all Bloodthirsters carry an axe of khorne, and each axe of khorne has another bloodthirster in it... that has another axe of khorne.

vyper
07-04-2009, 17:51
Ah this all takes me back. Replacing another model with a polymorphined assassin was priceless.

That aside, 3rd ed chaos codex with a chaos lord riding both a juggernaught and a bike, jugger on a unicycle anyone?

I remember losing a game before turn one with my IG to a virus grenade. Having said that a lot of the strategy cards were good fun, weapon malfunctions were great.

Also, the Dark Millenium "vehicle design rules", 4 battlecannons on a leman russ, thank you very much. Especially because, if i remember correctly, when you hit a tank with a blast marker, you end up hitting every location under the template!

What else was there, hmm, I think genestealer cult armies need to be mentioned, you were able to have units of 20 hybrids all with heavy weapons if I'm not mistaken!

The good old days.

Awilla the Hun
08-04-2009, 09:45
I've got a 3rd Ed Cult Army List under my desk. I still occasionally have an urge to use it.

Raxmei
08-04-2009, 10:54
Mycetic swarm Tyranids, the all deep strike Tyranid army. Gaunts that deep strike directly into combat - not just assault after deep striking, but aim the template right at a unit and instantly start an assault instead of being destroyed like normal. Deep striking gaunts with sustained assault. Deep striking Carnifexes. It was considered fairly cheesy at the time.

spaint2k
08-04-2009, 12:37
Reading all this makes me realize that the biggest downfall of 2nd ed 40k was caused by dropping the GM.


Sigh... I just don't understand half the things these people are talking about. It never occurred to my friends to give a squad of 20 wolf guard terminators cyclone missiles AND assault cannons.

First off, it would have meant buying 20 terminators. Then it would have meant a bits order (at least!) for the 20 assault cannons. The kind of infantile mindset that might have come up with such a sad plan surely didn't have enough money to put it into action!

Shokk attack gun mek with telescopic legs? Pics or it never happened.

Virus grenades killing all the orks? We took em out of the game because they weren't fun.

I think the only thing 2nd edition needed was players who enjoyed the game for the figures and the fun of getting together with their friends.

Steve

Steel Legion for Life
08-04-2009, 15:10
I doubt it ever occurred to us playing 15 years ago to keep cameras with us to prove to people on the then-all-but-science-fiction internet what was going on on our gaming tables in 1994 :)

I do recall seeing a guy with telescopic legs and a heavy plasma gun; that was because the plastic ork sprue at the time had heavy plasma guns on it:)

I do recall a guy giving one of his orks a conversion beamer (from the Genestealer hybrid sprue!) in the hope of pulling the ludicrous malfunction card from Ere'we Go that basically nuked everything within 3" of the ork-owned beamer. The point of loading your Orks with random rolls was because it was fun to roll, and it made your army cheaper in money to buy!

As for people being lame in the old days, yeah, it really happened. I definitely spent six months in 1993 playing solely against an ork player, because all the marines and eldar players at our school gaming club would auto-win with toxin missiles. Nobody used virus in rogue trader; Toxin was much better and cheaper! Toxin Missiles had a 2" blast, were persistent, and auto killed everyone without full sealed suits with no dice roll if you were caught in the blast.

Virus cost about 3x as much (10pts for unlimited Toxin missiles, 25pts for Virus, as I recall) and you got a roll to survive virus! And every marine player was using RTB01 beaky marines, so Missile Launchers were all 90% of people used:) After that six months, 2nd Ed came out and seemed much more balanced...

Remember, at the time, 2nd Edition was absolutely amazing. You got this fantastic box, with zillions of models and cards and the rules were light years better than anything else. It won awards for best game all over the place. It wasn't balanced; but it was so much more balanced and more fun than anything else.

I definitely saw more than one army with a unit of 5 wolfguard with Assault cannons and Cyclones; agreed, the 20 man unit is more than likely theoretical, but tbh, 5 was a cheap way to get an army - the cyclone terminators were 2 for 4 in a blister, and then the assault cannons were I think 1.00 each from mail order?

Anyway, they cost so many points your 1000 point army looked like this - Ragnar & Ulrik the slayer, 5 wolf guard... nothing else. It was ultra cheap to buy, especially as a kid in the mid-90s when you had other things to spend money on, like Blur albums and Yellow DM boots with purple laces.

And lets face it, it was really good! 5 twelve missile salvos on turn one would end most games. And anything that lived would be chopped up by Ragnar and Ulrik.

Armies could be really small then; I remember people being upset when 3rd Ed came out and they couldn't use their chaos armies which consisted of 7 terminators.

Ofc, I was a rich kid with over 100 guard with lascannons and lasguns (and metal sergeants! Rawr!); I dusted them off for the Badab campaign weekend and people went nuts to see the old figures:)

Irisado
08-04-2009, 18:17
I doubt it ever occurred to us playing 15 years ago to keep cameras with us to prove to people on the then-all-but-science-fiction internet what was going on on our gaming tables in 1994 :)

Actually, I may have some photos taken of battles around my house during the Rogue Trader and Second Edition, but I have no idea where they would be.

I don't think I ever took a photo of that ridiculous Dark Angels list I referred to earlier on in this thread though, more is the pity.

AndrewGPaul
08-04-2009, 20:45
WHen the Realms of Chaos books came out, you could randomly get an absolutely game-breaking model. Huge damon prince with nearly top stats, could reflect any incoming fire back at the firer, had a daemon weapon that had a greater daemon inside it.. if the prince died, the greater daemon comes out to take revenge. Loophole was that all Bloodthirsters carry an axe of khorne, and each axe of khorne has another bloodthirster in it... that has another axe of khorne.

Nah, the rules specifically stated that the Bloodthirster inside the Axe of Khorne didn't himself have another Axe of Khorne. Presumably because the first Bloodthirster beat him up and took it.

Mind you, back then a Daemon Weapon cost 1,200 points, and then you had to roll randomly to see what daemon was in it. 1,200 points for a sword possessed by a Nurgling? Have fun with that. Then, when you used it there was a good chance the daemon would sulk and not come out, or simply eat the wielder.

I might still have an Inquisitor model waving one about, somewhere.