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Ventor
13-12-2005, 05:23
Here's something odd that happened in my last game that had everyone scratching their heads for awhile:

CCCCC
CCCCC
CCCCC
C = Corsairs



COC
COC = Cold One Chariot

... TTT
T = Treekin

Ok the treekin want to charge the unit of corsairs but it's not known if they can clear the chariot by wheeling around it on the charge. Now do the corsairs have to make a charge reaction before it's known if the treekin can reach them on the charge (pg 271 Sequence of Play)?

What happens if they are unable to get around the chariot on the wheel-- does the chariot get a charge reaction? Is this an accidental charge on the chariot then and thus it would not get a reaction? If this happens would the corsairs still have to have declared a charge reaction?

T10
13-12-2005, 05:52
The charging unit fails their charge.

They must move as far as possible towards the target unit. If they cannot wheel past an obstruction such as the chariot, "as far as possible" may well be shorter than their (failed charge) move.

Also, they will need to halt 1" away from the chariot.

Edit: I know realise that I am a bit rusty on charge declarations. On one hand it would seem to depend on the owning player's estimate of the charge. And on the other hand there is the question of Stand & Shoot for a unit that fails its Fear test, a test that is taken when it is clear that the charge will be successful...

-T10

Yanos
13-12-2005, 07:12
I think it'll go a little sump'in like this:

1. Declare Charge!
2. Measure range. Within 10", but does the chariot get in the way?
3. Try to wheel around chariot, fail to contact Corsairs as a result.
4. Charge fails. Corsairs therefore do not take a Fear test.
5. Chariot is within 5" of Treekin, is it contacted?
6. No, as this is entirely unfair, seeing as the Treekin could have charged it in the first place, and the Treekin are wheeling specifically to go around the chariot.
7. Cannot redirect onto Chariot (see above).
8. Treekin move as far as possible toward Corsairs, stopping within 1" of Chariot if necessary (ta T10 :) ).
8a. Treekin have probably exposed a flank to chariot. Chariot charges, bounces off rock'ard Treekin, and is pounded to flinders (probably!).

Festus
13-12-2005, 08:06
Hi

Correct so far.

To add concerning Charge reactions: Charge reactions are declared after all charges have been declared and are carried out regardless of the charge itself succeeding.

If you say S&S and the charger doesn't make it, you will still shoot.
If you declare *flee* and the charger falls an inch short, you will still flee.

Greetings
Festus

Major Defense
13-12-2005, 23:18
The 1" rule is for 'remaining moves' only and does not apply with moving charges.

Ganymede
14-12-2005, 04:49
The way my group has been playing it, and the way I've seen it played at tournaments is as follows. If it is visually established that the unit could never reach its target with even an infinite amount of chare range, then no charge is even allowed to be declared.

Basically, the BRB states that it is not legal to make a charge that you are sure can't reach. (well, it says it quite indirectly in one of the appendicies.) If no amount of wheel or movement will allow you to ever come into contact with the enemy, then technically you can't declare a charge in the first place.

Festus
14-12-2005, 06:19
Hi

The 1" rule is for 'remaining moves' only and does not apply with moving charges.

This is correct, but it still does not allow you to be within 1" of an enemy unit after the move chargers phase and not having b-t-b contact.

The provision is there

1st to allow chargers to approach their intended target

2nd to allow chargers to steer clear of other enemy units during a charge.

If you are within 1" of any enemy unit at any other time than the move chargers phase, you will have to either fudge a gap of at least 1" or be in b-t-b-contact.

Greetings
Festus

Ventor
15-12-2005, 06:05
Hi

Correct so far.

To add concerning Charge reactions: Charge reactions are declared after all charges have been declared and are carried out regardless of the charge itself succeeding.

If you say S&S and the charger doesn't make it, you will still shoot.
If you declare *flee* and the charger falls an inch short, you will still flee.

Greetings
Festus

That was the main concern we had-- if the treekin failed their charge that the corsairs could have fled. It took awhile for us to come to a conclusion and it's good to know the chariot could not have been "accidentally charged"

I wish you guys were in our gaming group- you can always answer pretty much anything WH-related.

What ended up happening in the game was the corsairs elected to hold and the treekin cleared the chariot by quite literally a hair width and had one model touching two corsairs on their flank.

The treekin rolled well on the attacks and killed 3 corsair. 3 wounds + flank vs. standard and outnumber. The corsairs broke and were chased and eventually run down by the victorious treekin in another combat.

SuperBeast
15-12-2005, 12:26
As an addition, according to the "Move Chargers" section of the BRB, a charging unit is only allowed to wheel once during it's charge move, in order to bring it into contact.
(The free "pile-in" wheel once contact is established notwithstanding).
In most cases, this wheel happens at the start of the charge, but it can be later.
So if the wheel to avoid the chariot meant that contact with the corsairs was not possible, then it is a failed charge, as they cannot wheel back to correct their movement.

Ventor
15-12-2005, 18:31
Yes, we followed the "only wheel once on a charge" rule. My diagram isn't an exact representation. Because of the angle of the wheel, the treekin model on the far right hit the corsairs on the far left of the unit.

Also, let me ask another question that came up.

If a unit declares to flee as a charge response, do you take into account that you would subtract the wheeling distance from the charging unit or do you just straight measure the distance between the two units to see if the charged unit gets away on it's flee roll?

We always said that it's just the straight distance between the 2 units to see if the fleeing one gets away. Is this wrong?

Festus
15-12-2005, 18:36
Hi


If a unit declares to flee as a charge response, do you take into account that you would subtract the wheeling distance from the charging unit or do you just straight measure the distance between the two units to see if the charged unit gets away on it's flee roll?

We always said that it's just the straight distance between the 2 units to see if the fleeing one gets away. Is this wrong?

Yes, this is wrong:
To catch them, the charging unit actually has to make contact with the fleeing enemy, otherwise they will get away. So you will have to take any and all Movement factory into consideration (wheeling, terrain, etc.)

Greetings
Festus

Ventor
16-12-2005, 04:58
That does make sense. Many thanks :)

Festus
16-12-2005, 11:37
Hi

remember that to catch a fleeing unit in apursuit (after a round of h-t-h), you only compare dice results to see if the unit is caught and destroyed.

Greetings
Festus