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ZombieMans
23-03-2009, 15:07
Could someone please tell me whats wrong/right with this list? Iíve been playing small point-cost games thus far as I paint more and more of my army, but I donít know whats good or not.

Vampire Lord:
Master of the Black Arts (+2 Power Dice)
Wiz Level (+1 wiz lvl)
Forbidden Lore (Know all Nec spells, or all of 1 loreís spells)
Lord of the Dead (Can raise skeleís beyond starting str, +1 to roll of IoN)
Flayed Hayberk (+2 Armor Save)
Skull staff (+1 to cast and dispel. Is this good or not? I donít know)

Vampire:
Master of the Black Arts
Book of Arkhan (Bound Van Hels)
Cadaverous Cuirass (Hvy armor, canít be poisoned or killing blow-nuked)

Vampire:
Dark Acolyte (+1 wiz lvl)
Avatar of Death (Get hvy armor + shield)
Helm of Command (Give WS to one other unit)
Black Periapt (Save one cast or dispel die for next magic phase)

Wight King:
Lance
Skeletal Steed
Barding
Rod of Flaming (Acts as an 18Ē magic missle that Str 4, flaming)
Biting Blade (-1 armor save)

Core:

Skeletons (13):
Champ
Banner
Has Vamp with it.

Skeletons (13):
Champ
Banner
Has Vamp with it.

Zombies (20)

Dire Wolves (6):
Doom wolf

Dire Wolves (6):
Doom wolf

Corpse Cart (2)

Special:

Grave Guard (12):
Seneschal
Standard
Has Vamp Lord with it.

Black Knights (6):
Hell Knight
Standard

Black Knights (5)
Hell Knight
Standard
Has Wight King with them

Rare:

Varghoulf (1)

What do you think? Advice? Changes? Is the skull staff worth it? Should I ditch it for something better? If so, what?

Makarion
23-03-2009, 17:05
Consider dropping 1 corpse cart to add more bodies - you run the risk of a gunline wiping a unit completely in turn one.

ZombieMans
23-03-2009, 18:33
How? A gunline won't be able to shoot at me unless I move into their range on the first turn. Besides, I can raise those 2 units of skeletons and zombies a good deal with the amount of power dice I have. Right?

Makarion
23-03-2009, 20:09
Crossbows have 30" range, and there's countless artillery that can reach as well. And that's not counting Thorek.

If your unit is gone, there's nothing to improve upon; you *must* be able to withstand a full round from a gunline with your bunkers. Go for another half dozen models per unit and you should be safe from pretty much anything.

Hinge01
24-03-2009, 00:41
Why a biting blade on your Wight King?

His lance is already magical and has killing blow to boot. I would much rather keep the Killing Blow then the -1 to armor.

Hinge01
24-03-2009, 00:45
I have to agree with small unit size comments, especially the Grave Guard, since you can not raise past these pasrt the intial unit size.

Also, think about the hell fire banner on one of the skelli units. Magical flaming attacks for 10 points, yes please. There is an awful lot of regen out there.

ZombieMans
24-03-2009, 03:09
I forgot that the wight king's sword was a wight blade with killing blow. Yeah... the biting blade would be fairly useless, then. Use the firey lance instead?

And whats a good number to bump the skeletons up to? 16? 20? Where around there? And whats a good number of grave guard? I figured 12 would be enough considering they seem really tough. Around 15 or so do you think for them?

Thanks for all of the advice! It's much appreciated.

Lex
24-03-2009, 19:50
I forgot that the wight king's sword was a wight blade with killing blow. Yeah... the biting blade would be fairly useless, then. Use the firey lance instead?

And whats a good number to bump the skeletons up to? 16? 20? Where around there? And whats a good number of grave guard? I figured 12 would be enough considering they seem really tough. Around 15 or so do you think for them?

Thanks for all of the advice! It's much appreciated.

Balefire spike would allow you to get past regen, but then again so does killing blow if I'm not mistaken. Any mundane wpn the wight wields becomes magical and killing blow, which includes the lance you gave him. So its a magical lance with killing blow. I think DE pay 25 pts for that. No reason to change that.

Modaavi
24-03-2009, 20:12
I forgot that the wight king's sword was a wight blade with killing blow. Yeah... the biting blade would be fairly useless, then. Use the firey lance instead?

And whats a good number to bump the skeletons up to? 16? 20? Where around there? And whats a good number of grave guard? I figured 12 would be enough considering they seem really tough. Around 15 or so do you think for them?

Thanks for all of the advice! It's much appreciated.

As stated for the Wight King, he should only be run with a standard weapon or the Sword of Kings. Any other magic weapon wastes one of the key benefits of Wights, magic killing blow weapons.

Grave Guard without GW should be run full ranks, so no less than 20 counting any characters, as they need the static CR to form a very solid anvil. If you run them with GW, you can get away with 3 ranks and run them 6x3 or 7x3. I have tried running GW units 7x2, but I didn't find them killy enough to survive with numbers that low.

Hinge01
25-03-2009, 03:47
I have been starting my Skelli blocks with 15 and been able to survive first round blasting from gunlines. Your Lord should get them up quickly since he will cast IoN on a 2+ on these guys.

Also, I found the Hellfire Banner to be the best 10 points spent. Those Vamps you stick in there wil suddenly have magical/flaming attacks to help ward off all the regen running around now a days. In fact, look over the Magic Banners. VC has some great ones, and can take them on so many units (one advantage of Skelli's). The Banner of Barrows on the Grave Guard for +1 to hit (off sets their low WS for elite troops) and Banner of Strigoi on the Black Knights (rerolling hits with killing blow ST 6 lances, yes please).

I find the Master of Black Arts a curious choice on a level 1 Vamp. He can only throw 2 dice at any single spell, has one random spell other then IoN, so would think this would not be useful. I would think that Dark Acoyoloyte gives you one more power dice and spell (one more chance at Dance), allows you to throw three dice at a dance if he has it. Maybe with Lord of the Dead for more raising goodness.

If you can fit a biting blade on a vamp, it would also be worth it.

Add either Balefire or load stone to the corpse carts. You have no dispell scrolls, so I would lean towards a double balefire to make it more difficult on enemy casters. One of each is nice flexibe choice as well.

Grave Guard should start with higher number, I think 20. You want the static CR and the outnumber from fear causer (not as useful as it once was :(, but what the hey).

The Zombies and dire wolves are cheap points well spent, so make sure you keep them. Now you have hard choices on what to give up. One of the Skelli blocks if you really want to keep the grave guard would be my thought. This keeps to your original build concept.

Good luck and let me know how it all comes together for you.

ZombieMans
25-03-2009, 04:11
I suppose I could drop a skele block, and just run another group of 20 zombies... but the amount of points I save there seems minimal at best. I feel like I'm thrown into a corner on where to put my points, considering there are so many things to do, and so few points to spend.

It seems a common consensus to bump the grave guard up, which I can understand. I'll try and see how I can work that out.

As for the MotBA on the lvl 1 vamp... I find it to be very effective. It lets me get off two raise dead, or two IoN with two dice for each. Or, if I get lucky and get a good spell like Curse of Years, I can 3 dice it with him. He also makes up for the fact that I would only have three vampires instead of the 4 most people run in their magic-heavy VC lists. I haven't try'ld a game with this list yet, but the 1000 point games I've been playing were I use a MotBA on a lvl 1 vamp seemed fairly succesful.

Any other ideas? Suggestions?

ZombieMans
25-03-2009, 04:28
Vampire Lord:
Master of the Black Arts (+2 Power Dice)
Wiz Level (+1 wiz lvl)
Forbidden Lore (Know all Nec spells, or all of 1 loreís spells)
Lord of the Dead (Can raise skeleís beyond starting str, +1 to roll of IoN)
Flayed Hayberk (+2 Armor Save)
Skull staff (+1 to cast and dispel. Is this good or not? I donít know)
Biting Blade

Vampire:
Master of the Black Arts
Book of Arkhan (Bound Van Hels)
Cadaverous Cuirass (Hvy armor, canít be poisoned or killing blow-nuked)
Battle Standard Bearer

Vampire:
Dark Acolyte (+1 wiz lvl)
Avatar of Death (Get hvy armor + shield)
Helm of Command (Give WS to one other unit)
Black Periapt (Save one cast or dispel die for next magic phase)

Wight King:
Lance
Skeletal Steed
Barding
Rod of Flaming (Acts as an 18Ē magic missle that Str 4, flaming)

Core:

Skeletons (16):
Champ
Banner
Has Vamp with it.

Zombies (20)

Zombies (20)

Dire Wolves (6)

Dire Wolves (6)

Corpse Cart (1):
Balefire

Special:

Grave Guard (18):
Seneschal
Standard
Has Vamp Lord with it.
Has Battle standard bearer with it.

Black Knights (6):
Hell Knight
Standard

Black Knights (5)
Hell Knight
Standard
Has Wight King with them

Rare:

Varghoulf (1)

This new list gives me the stronger unit of Grave Guard, especially with two vamps in it with the BSB in there. Yet I still cannot find a way to find even 10 points for a balefire standard! What could I move around for it, now?

Hinge01
25-03-2009, 04:33
Forgot the wolves did not count for your Min. Core.

Tough choices.

Risk starting one unit of Skelli at a min 10 and bulk up quickly? Use the points saved to bulk up the other and get the Hellfire Banner (I am telling you, you will thank me).

Drop one of the Black Knights? Will get you the points to beef up other units at the price of sacrificing a hard hitter. Keeping both in range of a Vamp to allow for marching might have been tough anyways.

Thats about it.

Hinge01
25-03-2009, 04:36
Sorry Zombiemans,

Responded before I saw your new list. A single Skelli cost 8 points, can you find another 2?

Hinge01
25-03-2009, 04:38
Other then that, I say get the army on the table and start test driving.

Hinge01
25-03-2009, 04:43
Ok, ,one other idea.

Instead of the second Zombie unit, take a minum unit of 10 Skellis (same point). Park this unit behind the others and put your guy with the Helm there. Should help prtect from shooting, offers another bunker for casting vamps, more effective then zombies (you only really need one tar pit unit) and can be raised up quickly by the Lord.

texer
25-03-2009, 11:13
Put Wight King as the BSB and give him the drakenhoff banner and put him into 20 grave guards with full command and the hatred banner.

Hinge01
25-03-2009, 12:53
I see your 125 point regen banner with a 10 pt. Banner.

Its builds like this that is exhibit one for squeezing in that Hellfire banner.

ZombieMans
26-03-2009, 17:44
Yeah... I can't really find the points to warrent such an expensive banner. Yes, I could reasonably fit in a hellfire banner, I just need to play around with a few of the points (should be easy, right?). But anything over 10 points is hard. As it is, I'm not sure what to add or drop, though I'm fairly sure I'll be keeping the BK's at full strength. The unit of 6 alows me to take a casualty and still be strong enough to hit a flank and do something.

The big problem I've been having in games is the fact that my skeletons will get hit by a hard-hitting unit like Britonian Knights with a hero, and they will be utterly destroyed in one charge. I haven't played enough games to learn how to stop this from happening, yet.

Other than that... I'll try and fit in the hellfire banner somewhere, and play-test the army as soon as its finished getting painted. I'll post up here how that goes.

Thanks for all the input, guys!

P.S.-

Would a Lord like this look better?

Vampire Lord with:
Master of the Black Arts
Forbidden Lore
Lord of the Dead
Wiz Level
Flayed Hauberk
Crown of the Damned
Sword of Battle

Is the Crown really worth it? I've lost a general once, and that lost me the game. Is it worth the protection on the model for the chance of stupidity? A 2+ armor and 4+ ward seem like they would keep him alive fairly well, plus I then have enough points for a Hellfire banner. What do you guys think?

Walls
26-03-2009, 18:03
I really think you need better focus on your vamps. You have them dual role right now, which isn't the best role for them. A avatar of death vamp is meant to fight, why bog him down withthe helm? I'd give him avatar and infinite hatred, a cheap sword and one of the various magic items that really help with challenges and put him in that role. Use your other vampire as the magic one.

I also wonder about using Wight Kings as anything else then a BSB. I think you get way better use out of a vampire as a well equipped combatant or magic user.

Modaavi
26-03-2009, 18:09
The big problem I've been having in games is the fact that my skeletons will get hit by a hard-hitting unit like Britonian Knights with a hero, and they will be utterly destroyed in one charge. I haven't played enough games to learn how to stop this from happening, yet.


The trick to stopping something really hard, like knights, from wiping a unit out in one go is to grow that unit to the proper size before that happens. That is why the master powers are so vital in an infantry heavy list. You should ideally get your skellies to around 30 models a unit, and zombies to 40 or more, before they get hit by anything, which does require casting nothing but IoN for the first turn or two. Honestly, I rarely use any spells other than IoN, Raise Dead, and Vanhel's in the majority of games. With a magic heavy list, push your advantage which is the ability to raise mass troops. This will help ensure that even with substantial casualties and resulting crumble, you will still have a unit left to repair on your next turn.

ironskullbo
26-03-2009, 19:33
i think you should drop the magic item off of your vampire lord that gives plus one to cast/dispel. the vampire wont benefit from it while casting IoN bc a 1 or 2 always fails when casting. am i right?

Modaavi
26-03-2009, 21:02
i think you should drop the magic item off of your vampire lord that gives plus one to cast/dispel. the vampire wont benefit from it while casting IoN bc a 1 or 2 always fails when casting. am i right?

You are right that a 1 or 2 always fails, but that isn't the real reason for taking that magic item. The real benefit comes from the higher successful score on a 1 die Invocation, making for a much harder dispel. With any successful IoN on your core unit, you have now made it a very big gamble to try and dispel on one die, with 33% being the best odds you could have without a dispel modifier of some kind. I still think the item is a bit overpriced for the impact it actually has in the games I've used it, but I can see it's attraction.

XXL
26-03-2009, 22:44
Consider a Vampire with

-BSB, Banner of Hellfire
-Dreadknight
-Walking Death

I love him. Can, quite fast, give +2 CR, 1 less wound from loss, some more punch and magic flaming attacks to a unit of your choice. And his "only" 185p
:p

ZombieMans
27-03-2009, 17:48
I really think you need better focus on your vamps. You have them dual role right now, which isn't the best role for them. A avatar of death vamp is meant to fight, why bog him down withthe helm? I'd give him avatar and infinite hatred, a cheap sword and one of the various magic items that really help with challenges and put him in that role. Use your other vampire as the magic one.


Avatar of Death lets me give my vamps armor, something they otherwise lack, while freeing up the points for magic items. All Avatar of death does is give a casty vamp some survivability.


I also wonder about using Wight Kings as anything else then a BSB. I think you get way better use out of a vampire as a well equipped combatant or magic user.

The only time I have to change the kit-out on the vampire with the BSB is if he has a magic BS. He doesn't, so he's the same vamp with anotheer 25 points tacked on.

The Wight works much better in the BK's then a vamp would, because he still has the skeletal steed, therefore gets the ethereal movement. With a varghoulf nearby to speed them along, I don't see why not to keep him with the BK's.

Also, as I'm going for a magic heavy list, why would I exchange my magic vamps for hand-to-hand ones?


Modaavi: Is the skull staff worth it in an inventory heavy list like mine? Should I have kept the other skeletal unit? Or are the graveguaard more important? And is the skull staff worth it, or are those items better?

Dungeon_Lawyer
27-03-2009, 18:18
The Wight works much better in the BK's then a vamp would, because he still has the skeletal steed, therefore gets the ethereal movement. With a varghoulf nearby to speed them along, I don't see why not to keep him with the BK's.



I dont have the book in front of me, I know vamp heros do not have access to skeletal steeds, but do vamp lords have access to them?

shredshredxx
27-03-2009, 18:35
Walls is right, you could drastically improve your vampires effectiveness by just trading their equipment.

try this,

Vampire:
Master of the Black Arts
Helm of Command (Give WS to one other unit)
Cadaverous Cuirass (Hvy armor, canít be poisoned or killing blow-nuked)

Vampire:
Dark Acolyte (+1 wiz lvl)
Avatar of Death (Get hvy armor + shield)
Book of Arkhan (Bound Van Hels)
Black Periapt (Save one cast or dispel die for next magic phase)

that way the avatar of death vamp can get into combat, as with his decent armour save he'll do okay,

and the other vamp can sit back, cast like mad, and give other units his ws.

there's no point in putting the helm on the vampi that's superior in combat.

Andrew Luke
27-03-2009, 20:46
Or, if I get lucky and get a good spell like Curse of Years, I can 3 dice it with him.



Yes, you could, but you'd be cheating. :mad: A lvl. 1 can only throw max 2 dice at a spell.

Also, your black knight units don't have 5 'rank and file' models, so according to the lasts BRB FAQ your wight king can be cannon-sniped.

Other than that your list is magic-heavy boredom that is a complete chore to play against. Maybe make one your vamps more fighty, with dread knight and infinite hatred, for example. Then he can go in black knights if you want or just charge out of a unit for funzies. You even put a power stone or two on him so he can LEGALLY cast a spell on three dice! ;)

bizzar6311
27-03-2009, 21:17
Just made an account hello all.

ZombieMans
29-03-2009, 03:17
Also, your black knight units don't have 5 'rank and file' models, so according to the lasts BRB FAQ your wight king can be cannon-sniped.


What do you mean? They have a unit strength of 10, how do they not count as having rank and file? 12 with the Wight King.

How does that not work?