PDA

View Full Version : Can someone enlighten me Re: Beasts of Chaos??



nick_robinsonchia
24-03-2009, 04:08
Havnt played for nearly 3-4years but when i did i played a herd/minotaur heavy khorne army that steamrolled the local tourney scene...

Why do they rank so low now? I couldnt find a tactica for them and it seems that people regard them as something of a junk list?

Is it because they dont have access to the Mortals magic item list? I understand about them changing the ranking up from 4 to 5 but that shouldnt have made too much of an mpact...

I love the way the army plays manouvering all over the place with skirmishers, fast heavy hitters and plenty of tactical options. I will likely build an army of them even tho they apparently suck.

Would appreciate any words of wisdom.

Cheers

N

Kerill
24-03-2009, 04:35
Khorne doombull armies are one of the few remaining competitive builds I think. Herds are now a lot weaker due in part to ASF and also because most other armies have now got much hittier and/or better armoured than before. In the past herds were reasonably hitty and had rank bonus, now they are fairly low in terms of hitting power and can lose their rank bonus against a lot of things.

Minotaurs are as good as ever though.

Oh and terror and fear causers are also more common now, which rapes beastlord or shaman armies, doombull is fine.

Tzeentch superherd still works to some extent although the loss of the staff is a big loss to that build (partly made up for by the increase in power of indigo fire).

nick_robinsonchia
24-03-2009, 04:43
Umm sorry but ive been trying to figure out what ASF means...read it a few times but couldnt decipher or guess what it meant

Bum
24-03-2009, 04:56
Umm sorry but ive been trying to figure out what ASF means...read it a few times but couldnt decipher or guess what it meant

Always strike first

The Red Scourge
24-03-2009, 07:20
But don't give a damn about all that. A new book is on its way, that will bring back the beasts to their former glory, so there is nothing to worry about :)

Bac5665
24-03-2009, 15:05
I've never understood how the 4 rank-up thing cripples beasts. The only time it would come up would be when beasts heard are fighting Chariots or monsters. In neither case would the +2 CR make that much of a difference. Against chariots, the charger will win; nothing else matters.

Against most monsters, the Herd is *$%*ed anyway, so again, it doesn't matter.

Sure, is an incredibly stupid ruling and every day that GW doesn't post a FAQ reversing it is an active failure on the part of GWs ability to figure out how to write rules. But its not a balance issue, at least not a huge one. Its a "feel" issue. If feels wrong for herds to rank up to only 4 in those rare situations. But surely feel isn't that big a deal? Am I missing some common situation where this problem damns BoC? Or is it mostly all the other dozens of reasons why people don't like BoC.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
24-03-2009, 15:43
I've never understood how the 4 rank-up thing cripples beasts. The only time it would come up would be when beasts heard are fighting Chariots or monsters. In neither case would the +2 CR make that much of a difference. Against chariots, the charger will win; nothing else matters.

SNIP

Also hurts them when flanking smaller units- missile troops, cav- or fighting warmachine crews. Because they have flanked and generally outnumber, they will usually eventually win these battles but it can take them a lot longer than normal [I remember my Quarrellers getting flanked by a beast herd and still being over half strength at the end of the game after 3 complete turns of combat (6 combat phases)], which leaves them vulnerable. Still not necessarily enough to break an army, but it can make the difference in some games.

Harwammer
24-03-2009, 15:45
I've never understood how the 4 rank-up thing cripples beasts. The only time it would come up would be when beasts heard are fighting Chariots or monsters. In neither case would the +2 CR make that much of a difference. Against chariots, the charger will win; nothing else matters.

Just wrote a huge reply but figured I'd rewrite to try be more succinct :D

The biggest problem with 4 wide is you don't get rank bonus when combo charging; Without +2 for ranks the herd/chariot will not break the unit on the charge, in the subsequent turn they may get rank bonus but no impact hits.

4 wide also makes unruly more painful; varghulfs and giants can be used much more aggresively to warp the lines of beastmen. They only need to beat standard and outnumber instead of standard, outnumber, 2 ranks. A giant/varghulf would be more wary about getting close to 4cr + 9 attacks, whereas 2 CR + 9 attacks can largely be shrugged off.

This is compounded by the fact herds are not generally speced for a combat but instead for keeping shaman mobile/safe/360 LoS.

Lastly, on receiving a chariot charge; ranked infantry doesn't fear the charge of an 80ish point chariot; why should a 140 point beast herd? an orc chariot is only expected to cause 4 wounds on T4 infantry. Herds would be able to shrug this off (win by musc!) if it wasn't for the silly 4 wide ruling.

Summary: 4 wide is very damaging to beast herds.

It makes them useless at combo charging with chariots (what they are designed for), it makes unruly more dangerous, it makes herds unable to stand up to charges that they were intended to be able to shrug off.

Phazael
24-03-2009, 16:14
Competitive Beast lists boil down to three builds:

1) Khorne Doombull (or khorne led in general with Khorne Minos in the list)
2) Morghur Lists
3) Chariot Spam

Of the three, I have personally had the most luck with the second two. Of the three, I recommend Chariot Spam, backed by a solid magic phase, as it gives you the most flexibility.

Harwammer
24-03-2009, 16:20
Of the three, I have personally had the most luck with the second two. Of the three, I recommend Chariot Spam, backed by a solid magic phase, as it gives you the most flexibility.

If only casty z wargors could be mounted on chariots, eh? *dreams*

Do you think Gorthor, 3 giants + bsb has potential for damage? I sure someone mention it once and it seemed a cool idea :D

Phazael
24-03-2009, 19:31
Giants are too easily killed these days, for my liking, with how people are tooling to counter large monsters. Also beastmen BSBs are notoriously weak. I would personally run Gorthor as a chariot spam list backed by a couple of mage led herds. If you want to take advantage of his extra rare rule, six spawn or three units of DOs are probably the better route.

sulla
24-03-2009, 23:30
I've never understood how the 4 rank-up thing cripples beasts. The only time it would come up would be when beasts heard are fighting Chariots or monsters. In neither case would the +2 CR make that much of a difference. Against chariots, the charger will win; nothing else matters.

Against most monsters, the Herd is *$%*ed anyway, so again, it doesn't matter.

.

Hero on pegasus, hero on horse etc can beat a herd or run it down if it flees easily. You are right about chariots though. Unless you have a chariot smashing hero in there, the unit is gone if charged.