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Gork or Possibly Mork
24-03-2009, 03:50
Im sure this question has been do to death but I couldn't find anything with the crappy search ( probably user error ) but anyway.


I know that a character that causes fear makes a unit immune to it for fear test. So my question is what about break test. will a outnumbering fear causing unit autobreak units who do not cause fear themselves but are immune to fear via a fear causing character?

i.e

15 skeletons+BannerOfTheDeadLegion ( possibly vanhelsed or miasma of deathly vigoured+Helm of commandment ) out numbers and wins combat by 1
vs a unit of 25 ( US 1 each troops ) with a character that causes fear.

Is this correct that if the outnumbering fear causer wins by 1 they will auto-break a unit even if immune to fear?

So the only units that wouldn't break are Immune to Psychology or Unbreakable.

Can a fear causing unit break another fear causing unit if they outnumber and win combat by 1?

i.e.

Two ogre players each have a unit of Ironguts in combat. One unit outnumbers and wins by 1 at the end of combat. Does the losing Irongut unit auto-break? Or do they take a break test as normal?

I don't know about you but the last sentence for defeated by fear causing enemy on pg.50-51 ( auto-break if outnumbered and lose by 1 regardless if your immune to fear or not ) is a bit too powerful especially in VC favour.

rottahn
24-03-2009, 04:39
here's an example of what happens:

16 skinks with 2 kroxigors are fighting 23 ghouls. the ghouls win combat by 1. the fear causing unit strength of the ghouls is 22-6(for the kroxigor)=17. since 17 outweighs the skinks, they would autobreak(lets say they didnt roll insane courage).

i hope this cleared the question up for you.

(for your irongut questions) causing fear, means that you are immune to other unit's fear. and you "downgrade" a dragon's terror into fear instead. for example ironguts dont take terror checks, since they cause fear. however ironguts will autobreak against a dragon if outweighed(again, they can try for the insane courage).

Necromancy Black
24-03-2009, 05:20
I have never seen anyone ever play it like that rottahn.

Here's the problem: there's no rule saying that non characters units grant immunity to fear to the unit like characters do. On that same token, as the rules are written it appears that Kroxigors in a unit of skinks makes the unit as a whole cause fear, meaning the skinks count as fear causes.

Easiest solution, adopt the rules for characters as it's the only rules for mixed units that really exist. This means the kroxigors make the unit immune to fear, but only the kroxigors themselves count as fear causes.

As to the origanal question, the rules state that a fear/terror causing character grants his immunities to the unit, so the whole unit is imunne to fear/terror, meaning they will ignore fear/terror when determining if they are outnumbered by fear causes.

Gork or Possibly Mork
24-03-2009, 05:37
I thought thats how it works and we do play it that way. Just wanted to be sure we didn't miss a rule somewhere.

It really hasn't been a issue for me against my VC player friend. He usually takes smaller units and I can shut down his raising somewhat. If he went with large blocks of skellies+corpsecarts(miasma)+vamp hero support and a Helm of command Lord I could see alot of autobreak potential that would be nigh impossible to deal with in later rounds if I can't kill the vamps. That and being able to vanhel's a newly raised zombie unit into the flank to negate ranks is tough to deal with. Especially if he flew some bats behind for easy crossfire kills. In the latter rounds when you're troops are dwindling
down and his are just getting stated attrition starts to take it's toll.

Luckily for me my VC friend likes uber characters,specials,rare with a small core. Which IMO is much easier to deal with.

Gork or Possibly Mork
24-03-2009, 05:44
As to the origanal question, the rules state that a fear/terror causing character grants his immunities to the unit, so the whole unit is imunne to fear/terror, meaning they will ignore fear/terror when determining if they are outnumbered by fear causes.

Yeah but the last sentence for "Defeated by fear causing enemy" states
"Note that this rule applies whether the defeated units have previously passed any fear test or not."

So if your Immune to fear for whatever reason ( you auto-pass your fear test ) but you still auto-break if you lose by 1 and are outnumbered unless your Immune to Psychology or unbreakable.

Necromancy Black
24-03-2009, 06:11
Rules for immunity to fear/terror:

"A creature that causes fear is not affected by enemies that cause fear."

Thus they will not be affected by being outnumbered.

The Red Scourge
24-03-2009, 06:28
They will of course take the full effects of fear, should they be charged in the flank or rear, where the character doesn't get into base contact with the enemy :)

Gork or Possibly Mork
24-03-2009, 06:29
Rules for immunity to fear/terror:

"A creature that causes fear is not affected by enemies that cause fear."

Thus they will not be affected by being outnumbered.

I really think the word affected there needs to be clarified in a FAQ. because the rule you posted and the one I did are in direct conflict with each other. Also at the later part of the fear and terror immunity section it specifically seems to suggest fear/terror test with no mention about losing combat and outnumbered by fear causers.

I agree it seems like a stupid rule ( and quite powerful for VC since they can raise ) but I can see no concreate rule that overides the last sentence of defeated by fear causing enemy.

I really hope GW clarifies this so we can bury the hatchet on this rule because I think for alot of people it could go either way.

Necromancy Black
24-03-2009, 06:50
They will of course take the full effects of fear, should they be charged in the flank or rear, where the character doesn't get into base contact with the enemy :)

Nope, not in the rules. The entire unit become immune to fear, that's what the rules say.

However, a charging enemy will not have to amke a fear test unless they come into contact with the fear causes.


@Gork or Possibly Mork: I don't see what at conflict here. The rules for breaking say "Units in close combat automatically fail their Break test if by an enemy that they Fear..."

No it doesn't say fear causes, bu that they fear, and as you pointed out this will apply even if they passed the fear test.
But didn't they take the fear test because they feared the enemy in the first place? So wouldn't a unit that is immune to fear not actually fear a unit?

You may be right and GW wants the auto-breaking to still happen, but the rules are more on the side of being immune to fear means you don't auto-break. Shall we have a third FAQ?

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-03-2009, 06:54
I really hope GW clarifies this so we can bury the hatchet on this rule because I think for alot of people it could go either way.

Really? I've never ever heard of anyone else that thought that causing fear/immunity to fear didn't also meant that you didn't auto-break.

How much more specific do you want it that "A creature that causes fear is not affected by enemies that cause fear." ?

You are not affected by fear, and since the fear is what is causing you to auto-break you don't.

@The Red Scourge, no they won't. If you charge a unit with a fear causing character in such a way you don't contact him you wouldn't have to take a fear test yourself (provided you needed to in the first place). But that is all that is different. The unit itself is still immune to fear no matter what there character is located in relation to the combat.

Gork or Possibly Mork
24-03-2009, 07:37
Necromancy and Gorbad.

I was just stating an argument that was discussed with 2 friends of mine. The majority of my group play it the way you two suggested as do I. When I play against those two players I mentioned we have to 4+ it because for some reason it isn't so clear to them. It has only come up once or twice and they're pretty fair players so maybe I'll refer them to this thread so that they may see the light:D

Kalandros
24-03-2009, 10:03
The older this game system gets, the further its players dig into rAwful.

Spirit
24-03-2009, 13:28
If a character that causes fear joines a non fear causing unit, he transfers the IMMUNITIES to fear/terror that he has, to the unit.


So a saurus on a cold one (fear US2) joins a unit of 10 saurus (no causing of fear, but now have immunities)

They then lose a combat, by 1, against a unit of 100 skeletons (outnumbered by a fear causer)

They now take a Ld test on ld7, because the unit is immune to the effects of fear.



I would imagine the same system works for krox/skinks or razordons/skinks ect.

Keller
24-03-2009, 14:00
So if a character causes fear, any unit he joins becomes immune to Fear? Is this a new change in 7th ed that I missed?

I remember it being that only the character is immune to the fear. If you fail your fear check but are not outnumbered, the character hits as normal but the unit hits on 6's. If you lose combat and are out numbered (US of Feared enemy minus US of your character compared to your Fearful Unit's US) the unit breaks, and the character must go with them.

I really shouldn't surf this site w/o the rulebook handy.... I am so confused!

Necromancy Black
24-03-2009, 14:08
As we've said, a fear causing character grants the entire unit he joins immunity to fear as though they also caused fear, same with terror.

So no, what you describe doesn't happen.

EvC
24-03-2009, 14:37
So if a character causes fear, any unit he joins becomes immune to Fear? Is this a new change in 7th ed that I missed?

I remember it being that only the character is immune to the fear. If you fail your fear check but are not outnumbered, the character hits as normal but the unit hits on 6's. If you lose combat and are out numbered (US of Feared enemy minus US of your character compared to your Fearful Unit's US) the unit breaks, and the character must go with them.

Yes, for the eighth or ninth time in this thread, if a fear-causing model is in a unit, then the entire unit is immune to fear. Pretty damn simple really!

Spirit
24-03-2009, 21:22
I just wanted to spell it out with another example. My one seems to make it even clearer i think.

Is there any conformation that a skink/krox unit functions like this as well?

Lord Dan
24-03-2009, 21:40
I really think the word affected there needs to be clarified in a FAQ.

I really don't think that's the problem at hand. At the rate we're going GW will need to clarify the intentions of words like: "that" and "is". "Affected" means exactly what it sounds like: Any time a fear causer does anything that would require use of its fear ability, the enemy unit that also has the fear rule ignores it. The argument is whether or not the enemy unit in question counts as having the fear rule because of the presence of a character with it.