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View Full Version : Are the new lizardmen lists too character heavy?



Coram_Boy
24-03-2009, 18:44
I've noticed a trend in most of the new lizardmen armies. They generally go something like:
Slann X, 450 Points
Skink priest on EOTG, 430 Pts
Saurus Skar-Vet, 140 Pts
and some Saurus Skar-Vet 2, 140 Points.
that's over half your points allowance, in some cases, of heroes - does this not seem a bit excessive? I don't really know much about lizardmen style of play, but surely the huge points investment in heroes is making the rest of the force much, much smaller? I don't know the arguements for this kind of army, but if anyone could tell me I'd be much obliged. Thanks!

Malorian
24-03-2009, 18:50
I think it's escessive. The new book has so many nice units that you are really shooting yourself in the foot by putting all those points in characters.

This armies tend to go fairly well be get destroyed by armies with a good amoutn of shooting, but seeing as how most armies seem to have shifted to magic heavy this isn't such a problem.

I think over time people are going to take more gunlines/warmachine and lists like these are going to less common.

Bac5665
24-03-2009, 18:55
I don't think its excesive, mostly because its really the EoTG that stands out there and the EoTG acts like a normal unit that happens to have a character on top. For me, it feels like I'm paying the same amount for characters I was before with a Slaan, skink priest on foot and a Scar-Vet. The only difference is that I've added in the EoTG for the skink to ride. It feels like I've added a unit and the skink priest just has to go there instead of the unit of saurus he used to sit in.

slingersam
24-03-2009, 19:39
The thing I realized with Lizardmen, they need the help the
heros provide. I just went and counted up my hero selection
in my 2000 point list, and it came up to a surprising 805 points
which shocked me. That ETOG is very expensive, but it's also a
great way to get in an Ancient Stegidon. If you really think
about it its only 515 points for heros, and 290 points for ETOG.
If you look at it this way, I'm not really overspending.

Emissary
24-03-2009, 19:57
If you really think
about it its only 515 points for heros, and 290 points for ETOG.
If you look at it this way, I'm not really overspending.

Agreed. If you bought an ancient stegadon and a skink or an eotg you're getting the same thing either way armywise. It's just a matter of which category that the points are being spent from. For me it would be the same if you counted the black guard your battle standard is hiding in towards his cost.

Phazael
24-03-2009, 20:24
Its a trend in the newer books that began with High Elves and was solidified by the VC book. All of the newer army books are character intensive.

N810
24-03-2009, 20:30
It's no worse than our old list...
where you could easily have 1/2 your points in characters...

Malorian
24-03-2009, 20:41
Its a trend in the newer books that began with High Elves and was solidified by the VC book. All of the newer army books are character intensive.

Well vampires need their magic, but I wouldn't say the same for the other armies.

I actually see the characters in WoC to be a point sink. People like loading up on magic but they don't really need it and it just makes their already elite army more elite. Same this goes for lizardmen.

DoC can go character heavy but can seriously don't need to be.

Roxors45
24-03-2009, 20:43
Thats why I made my Herohammer post. Its not that people try and go character heavy its that theyre often forced too. Taking a slann sets your Magic Offense. But now you need magc defense. If you took a 150 pt skink scroll caddy you'd get a less effective dispeller thats very easy to kill. Since its so cheap though you would probably field a stegadon somewhere in the list so why not just combine the two. Then with the Krox nerf you need something with S7 to kill chariots so theres the Nike Saurus and pretty soon BANG 1k pts in characters.

Phazael
24-03-2009, 20:53
And actually, if you are running your DoC army with block infantry, you basically need the character support to make it work. Only horrors are functional without a herald (and bloodletters suck even with a herald), so unless someone is running bear minimum chimp core, you are looking at three characters just to make your core blocks workable.

Jormi_Boced
24-03-2009, 21:40
My list has:
300 pt. Slann
440 pt. Skink Priest
140 pt. Scar Vet.

I also put a 25 pt. item on my Revered Guardian.

fracas
24-03-2009, 21:53
what is interesting though is that the lizardmen list can affort you go with just 2 characters, the slann general-BSB-wizard and a scar-vet fighter and thats is it. nearly all other armies require 3 characters if not 4 (as a wizard lord may not have the highest leadership or cannot be the general (TK))

sroblin
24-03-2009, 22:05
I actually see the characters in WoC to be a point sink. People like loading up on magic but they don't really need it and it just makes their already elite army more elite. Same this goes for lizardmen.


Well, I don't think loading up much on WoC combat characters is necessary, the units are punchy enough without character support, but I disagree about the mages. Between the lores and the magic items and mutation, you can make very effective mages for a fairly reasonable price. Furthermore, they are capable of addressing the major weakness of the army (lack of ranged offense, vulnerability to scouts, flyers, skirmishers, etc.), thereby being more valuable than just another small unit or two of super-hard troops or cavalry that do the same thing as all the other units in the army.

I do agree that lizardmen don't need to go magic-heavy, because their units by themselves offer a very good varied tool kit of abilities (which cannot be said for WoC as a whole.) However, I must say that the allure of ancient toad magic is a big part of the character and attraction of the army, and furthermore the rules for it are pretty good so why not take advantage of it.

I am not a fan of hero-hammer style armies, and I try to keep my characters between 25-30% of my force usually (with the exception of VC, here I stretch it to 35%). However, I do want to take both a stegadon and a skink priest in the army, and it just so happens that if I combine them they are extra useful. So although I'm a bity dismayed at the final price tag of the Skink + Stegadon combo, I remind myself that I'm basically just paying the points for it there where I would have spent it on a rare or special choice usually.

Mercules
24-03-2009, 22:06
Well... my Ogres welcome you Lizardmen players to the club.

My characters usually add up to about 40% of my total army cost. :(

slingersam
24-03-2009, 22:19
I go the other way, I have Saurus OldBlood,
with 2 Skink priests, I don't even take any
dispel scrolls, That provides me with enough
offensive magic to even face dwarfs.

Spirit
24-03-2009, 22:27
Its really simple. Dont use all your character slots.

Saurus dont need saurus characters to make them good.

So my only characters are: (at 2k)
An old blood on on a carnosaur (or a slann, interchangeable really)
A priest for dispell (on engine preferably)
A bsb, (only needed if no slann present, on a stegadon because i buy the steg anyway)

Never use all your characters in a lizard army, cut yourself down and get some troops on the table.

Necromancy Black
24-03-2009, 23:14
I know a 540pt Slann down as my basic Lord, followed by 2 skink preists on foot and a scar-vet on Cold-One. All up it's about 900pts.

I don't run any TG so the rest of my army is skink skirmishers, Salamanders, Cold-ones and Saurus blocks with spears.

I don't see the problem with so many points into characters at all, I like my herohammer and it doesn't make it worse of a game in any way.

theunwantedbeing
24-03-2009, 23:32
No, they are not too character heavy.
All that has happened is that you dont get the idea of moderation.

I've slowly been whittling away the magical items my army takes.
My last game, no magic items at all.
Result?
Massacre, the other guy was wiped clean off the board simply as he'de done the opposite and had a bunch of expensive character's and not really anything else as he couldn't afford a proper army afterwards.

A helpful tip if you find your struggling to cut back on character's.
Play 2600-2900pt games more often, you'll find you get a new perspective on how your troops and not your character's can be used to fight your battles for you.
Well, you'll at least find out what troops are capable of doing, as you'll undoubtedly find you are forced to buy an army of troops as your character's don't eat up all the points anymore.

EvC
24-03-2009, 23:33
Yeah, a lot of new Lizardmen lists are very character-heavy. Some people say, "oh it doesn't really count, as 500 points are spent on Stegadons", but that's not really the point- a High Elf player doesn't get to say "ah but my 300 point Dragon isn't technically a character himself!". Those Stegadons are typically far more useful for having the character on them- a list with a Slann and 2 Engines basically has three Lord-level casters as a result, costing near 1200 points. The fact he ALSO has two extermely powerful rank-breaking terror-causers with unstoppable magic effects hardly makes his list less of a threat now, does it? ;)

sroblin
25-03-2009, 00:50
Well, an HE player can't because there is no option to field dragons on their own.
For me the decision making process is like this:
1) I want a Stegadon in the army (large terror causing chariot monster is good)
2) I want a Skink Priest (telepathy and extra magic and dispel is good)
3) I can take them together for a niftier unit without using special or rare slots
There is no doubt that it is more powerful, but I would be taking the same choices separately if there was no EoTG. Perhaps the EoTG is too powerful, but I don't think it's entirely accurate to see it as a character per se.
I do think there may be a tendency to buy too many disciplines or magic items for the Slann as another problem; and I do think hero-hammer is to the detriment of the game because it means fewer units are fielded, and its more about stat-crunching and bits of text written in the margins of an army list. There's a place for that, to be sure, but I personally am not a fan of the extent to which it has become prominent again in 7th edition.

Grovel
25-03-2009, 01:02
Yeah, a lot of new Lizardmen lists are very character-heavy. Some people say, "oh it doesn't really count, as 500 points are spent on Stegadons", but that's not really the point- a High Elf player doesn't get to say "ah but my 300 point Dragon isn't technically a character himself!".

Difference being that a 300 point high elf dragon actually is a hero choice, as opposed to the stegadons which are not...

Kerill
25-03-2009, 01:52
I only have 2 characters in my 2250 list- slann and EOTG. As mentioned I don't see the engine itself as a character choice per se so I have about 600 points in characters (900 if you include the EOTG).

My slann is 510 points though at the minute that's slowly been creeping up in cost.

TheDean04
25-03-2009, 03:16
In 2250 I ran a list with only 2 skink characters (one a priest one a chief) and wiped the floor with a high elf player.

Dead Man Walking
25-03-2009, 03:35
Dont forget that taking a bsb on your slaan not only gives you a great mage but it saves you from buying another character to carry your bsb and is most likely far safer than having any other character carrying it, so your potentially saving not only a slot but the cost of the character wielding the bsb for 25 points.

mr.kislev
25-03-2009, 08:21
lets put it this way YES every one here plays herohammer exept some select people who relise that more is better then extra elite

slingersam
25-03-2009, 08:44
lets put it this way YES every one here plays herohammer exept some select people who relise that more is better then extra elite

Except for high elves, its all about Elites for them

Mercules
25-03-2009, 13:28
And Ogres where you basically have to field a Tyrant/Bruiser and a couple Butchers for 2k+, you don't really have an option for a level 1 Scroll Caddy and since you are spending 180 points on magical defense you might as well spend another 130-180 to be able to cast something as well.

EvC
25-03-2009, 16:03
Difference being that a 300 point high elf dragon actually is a hero choice, as opposed to the stegadons which are not...

Precisely: people take the combo because they can. But it's still part of the character allowance, and the combination of the character on the Stegadon makes it far more potent (LD7 stubborn and more impacts for the typical Chief, and making Priests even more potent otherwise). Course a Slann and an Engine is fine- in the old edition they did try and force people to attempt balance, so if you wanted a second gen slann you'd have to sacrifice rare slots and another hero slot. These days though... if people want to put 1200 points into three models, they can do so. Doesn't mean you should, however.

W0lf
25-03-2009, 16:10
Mounts should still take their slots and a slaan with 3 or more disciples should take a hero slot. Simples.

... Its not like hes your lvl 4, high ld general and bsb in one is it...

theunwantedbeing
25-03-2009, 16:25
In a 2k list, you can spend 1920points on your character slots.
Minimum core however is 150pts at 2k.

That's a 600point lord, with 3 character's on stgadons all totalling 440pts each.
Pretty stupid army really.
No special character's though.
If you took kroq-gar instead of the slann you'de have spent 1955pts on character's.

Warriors of Choas...318pt hero, 313pt hero, 413pt Bsb, 685pt Archaon.
A measly 1729pts, plenty left for mimum core.
Without special characters you can "only" spend a maximum of 1634pts.
Again, plenty for minumum core of only 120pts.

Daemons of Chaos
670pt Greater Daemon, 415pt BsB, 2x 265pt Hero's
A total of a tiny 1615pts, plenty to get the mimum core which cost's a whopping 360pts
leaving you with a full 25pts extra!

Dark Elves -560pt lord, 2 x 252pt hero's, 352pt bsb
Only 1416pts!
With Special characters its upto
Malekith, Shadowblade, Malus Darkblade, 352pt bsb
A full 1637pts, plenty left for minimum core of 180pts.

Perhaps the lizardman list is potentially too character heavy, as when taking the max you cannot afford minimum core at 2k......

N810
25-03-2009, 16:28
Hey rember when every body complained before about how all the Lizardmen list where the same.
(Slann + Temple Guard + Skinks)
Now that we have a lot more choices...
people are still complaining. :p

Lizardmen are still one of the most ballanced list in WHFB.

Coram_Boy
25-03-2009, 19:00
The problem is that despite the lizardmen list having great variety, most people take a slann, an EoTG, and mabye a saurus hero. There isn't much variety beyond items there, is there?
EDIT: should probably say, I don;t play lizzies - I've just seen the lists people are thinking up.

imweasel
25-03-2009, 19:19
Thats why I made my Herohammer post. Its not that people try and go character heavy its that theyre often forced too. Taking a slann sets your Magic Offense. But now you need magc defense. If you took a 150 pt skink scroll caddy you'd get a less effective dispeller thats very easy to kill. Since its so cheap though you would probably field a stegadon somewhere in the list so why not just combine the two. Then with the Krox nerf you need something with S7 to kill chariots so theres the Nike Saurus and pretty soon BANG 1k pts in characters.

What the heck is a Nike Saurus?

Dokushin
25-03-2009, 19:34
The problem is that despite the lizardmen list having great variety, most people take a slann, an EoTG, and mabye a saurus hero. There isn't much variety beyond items there, is there?
EDIT: should probably say, I don;t play lizzies - I've just seen the lists people are thinking up.

That's natural, people want to play with the shiny new stuff *grin*. I've ran several Oldblood lists, a few cavalry lists, varying numbers of stegadons, chief-heavy, and some infantry (I only have about 40 saurus models so I'm a little limited here) and there's great flexibility in the list. You'll start seeing a huge amount of variety once people get over Burning Alignment (lol).


What the heck is a Nike Saurus?

Leftover term for a Scar-Vet with a Great Weapon and the Jaguar Charm (bound Steed on 5). Called that b/c Jag Charm used to make it a M9 model on foot, and what could do that besides a good pair of Nikes? :D

N810
25-03-2009, 20:18
Look over at
http://pyramidvault.net/FORUM
(Lizardmen forum)
for more immaginative list.

Chainaxe07
25-03-2009, 20:47
Hi,
well i am about to play lizzies myself, and i know how it feels.
So, when you play small games (say 3000 or less) you have to face this dilemma: do i take the best spellcaster in the game, make him cause terror, regenerate and be magic resistant then give him some magic trinkets or do i get a strong, durable character that attacks as a chaos lord, has built in heavy armour and is cold blooded on top of that? Usually, if you can, you'll take both, little surprise there, and then mount the lizard lord (dunno how it's called in english) either on a carnosaur or, much more likely, on a "humble" cold one, then give him some kind of ward save and some extra cool magic weapon, to give him even more super killyness (can you imagine that???).
Then you go for some back up heroes: ideally a skink priest, then a sarus hero to act as a standard bearer.
You can either mount the saurus or not, but 9 times out of ten (and before you even realize it) your skink priest will be riding a ancient stegadon with the machine on it.
So here we are, lots of points spent on characters (though really scary, strong, durable ones that are super good either at casting or killing everything).
So...so what?
You still can build lots of units, as most basic core lizzies are fairly chep (not too cheap, beware, but still surely very,very,very far from overpriced).
Then, when you're finished you will end up with a large, extra cool force of painted lizards...and you know what? You'll want more!
You'll soon be longing for another saurus hero, then you'll surely want another skink priest and, soon enough, you'll end up with a skink hero on terradon too. Then you'll build units to go with these new charcter...then another stegadon or two...then you'll be trapped, forever, on the path of the old ones!