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the johnanator
24-03-2009, 20:23
Hi all

I have a game on thursday against Deamons. Its 2000 points and i using my tomb kings. He is taking a Bloodthrister which i know he will kit out to be a cheesethrister he also is taking a unit of hounds with the character to lead them. He takes 2 units of bloodletters 2 units of flamers a unit of mounted bloodletters a tzeentch wizard and a unit of plaguebearers.

What i want to know is what units will excell against deamons and how do i kill a cheesethrister? Or is there really no hope lol?

Whitesox
24-03-2009, 21:17
Ok its likely the thirster will take the firestorm blade to make your chariots go poof so i would say not to bother with chariots, looking at what you have listed id say that a rank bonus is going to be a problem throughout his army, blood letters are likely to be 12 or 18 strong at the most, the pb are likely to ge one though.

Id say get ushabtai, giant, maybe take a special charater (khalia) and lots of poisoned bows....

i cant think of how you will deal with the thirster bar tarpitting it with maybe a fair few swarms...

im at a loss, you will struggle with the match up

PopeAlexanderVI
24-03-2009, 21:19
You really don't have a chance, I'd find a different game.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 21:40
Thirster is nasty against everyone and the best you can hope for with TK is a luck shot from some catapults.

huitzilopochtli
24-03-2009, 22:12
No units will excel against daemons - but poisoned arrows are about as close as you'll get. Go for Khalida and pray for 6's.

the johnanator
24-03-2009, 22:34
Thats what i thought. The list i have got consists of:

High Priest
cloak and jar

prince
chariot of fire
great weapon light arnour

priest
terror mask

priest
scroll

2 units of 20 archers

1 unit of 10 archers

3 chariots

4 ushabti

scorpion

2 catapults


so the general feeling is get in khalida and drop the chariots for either more ushabti?

CaliforniaGamer
24-03-2009, 22:37
As I play TK and love them to death, its very murky how you would stop alot of different DoC elements. In my own experience: Khalida+bowmen+TP on chariot+2xSCC and pray for a direct hit on the thirster.

Regen should not be a problem since you have the flaming SCC attacks. Your heiro needs cloak of dunes and needs to run like a **** when the daemons begin chasing him down.

Tell us what happens, Im very curious.

Mozzamanx
24-03-2009, 22:42
One thing that almost never fails against turbonukes like the 'Thirster, is the humble unit Champion. Against all common sense and tactical advice, I'd actually recommend the icon Bearer as well.

A nice block of Tomb Guard, with the Icon Bearer and a unit Champion, should be your anti-Bloodthirster ticket. You have access to 2 banners, so take the Icon of Rakaph and a Warbanner.
You can either wait for him to charge you, or pull a 'surprise, cockbag!' with Rakaph, to get a charge. Then just challenge with the champion, and he is forced to accept.

He can never get more than 6pts for the fight (1 wound + overkill) whereas you have a static resolution of 6-7, tipped with a Musician. So he takes an instability check. Then in your turn, you can summon the Champion back and challenge again! Keep it up and he'll eventually fluff his stability.

Granted, its not perfect, and he can probably get a flank charge when he realises its a trap. But it's not a bad shot, by any means.

huitzilopochtli
24-03-2009, 22:56
priest
terror mask

Aren't DoC ItP?

And Mozzamanx's advice is sound. Maybe swap the mask for neferra's plaques so you have better magic to get your surprise charge/summon champ back spell off.

Malorian
24-03-2009, 23:00
A word of warning with the champ thing... it only works for two turns...

DoC turn: He charges and champ is killed
TK turn: You raise and champ is killed
DoC turn: Now with no champ he is free to kill your BSB :(

the johnanator
24-03-2009, 23:03
That does sound like a plan thanks for the advice. It is risky a best though but there aint a lot of options lol.

The one thing i can see is i will have superior magic and his deamon units are mostly T3 so hopefully my magical arrow barrage will do some damage.

CaliforniaGamer
24-03-2009, 23:06
One thing that almost never fails against turbonukes like the 'Thirster, is the humble unit Champion. Against all common sense and tactical advice, I'd actually recommend the icon Bearer as well.

A nice block of Tomb Guard, with the Icon Bearer and a unit Champion, should be your anti-Bloodthirster ticket. You have access to 2 banners, so take the Icon of Rakaph and a Warbanner.
You can either wait for him to charge you, or pull a 'surprise, cockbag!' with Rakaph, to get a charge. Then just challenge with the champion, and he is forced to accept.

He can never get more than 6pts for the fight (1 wound + overkill) whereas you have a static resolution of 6-7, tipped with a Musician. So he takes an instability check. Then in your turn, you can summon the Champion back and challenge again! Keep it up and he'll eventually fluff his stability.

Granted, its not perfect, and he can probably get a flank charge when he realises its a trap. But it's not a bad shot, by any means.

what happens when on his next turn he is still in CC with unit, there is no one to challenge now and he kills 7 models outright, then on your turn you are struggling just get off enough invocs to bring back those before the thirster does it again. Vamps can do it...TK not so much so. regardless he turns your "surprise cockbag!" into you "teabagging" his giant FW thrister model....

the johnanator
24-03-2009, 23:12
Thats a good point. Do you think pumping 60 poison along with to SSC will kill a bloodthrister lol?

What about a casket of souls?

Jericho
25-03-2009, 03:21
Casket could be interesting... but keeping it alive versus stuff like Screamers and flying characters could be tough.

One little reminder, I'm sure you're aware of this but SCC targeting Plaguebearers isn't a bad idea since it's flaming.

swarmofseals
25-03-2009, 03:28
Not sure if anyone else caught this first, but that list isn't legal at 2k points. Flamers and bloodcrushers (mounted bloodletters) are both rare. If he is indeed taking 2 units of flamers and a unit of bloodcrushers in a 2k point game then he has 1 rare choice too many.

fubukii
25-03-2009, 03:53
posion arrow his doggies kill his bearers with ssc. for the thrister just try to tarpit the thing if possible. If you can mass alot of posioned arrow shots on it id go for it but otherwise no. doing a couple ranged wounds, then winning combat by 1-2 could do him in with a poor instability roll. also tomb scorps are fairly good at killing most daemon units.

StormCrow
25-03-2009, 04:47
I'm going to have to go with the majority here; Khalida is the only real sure fire way for tomb kings to deal with a blood thirster. It'd be an incredibly boring list/game but a big unit of skeletal archers with poisoned shots shooting twice a turn should put some pain on most of the demon units. It's just a matter of shooting down all the threats before they tear you apart (extremely unlikely).
2 SSC should hurt the demons too...although it'd be much nicer if they had retained their old ward rules...

fubukii
25-03-2009, 12:00
the incantation of smiting will work great vs daemons, double posioned shots hurts normal daemon units pretty badly, and 4 ssc shots should hurt anything.... and you even roll a target with that many shots and nail that thrister if you are good at guessing your range

Phazael
25-03-2009, 15:53
Ok, the reform and charge banner is an absolute must for your tombguard in this army. You should have a TG unit with the King swinging a Destroyer of Eternities wearing the Collar of Shapesh sitting in that unit. This is the best answer for most of his army. Other things to take would be:

Casket-
He will want to send his thirster at it and that is fine. That means you won't have to deal with the thirster elsewhere for most of the game. Meanwhile, he either uses the bulk of his dispell dice stopping the casket (and thus letting you have your way elsewhere on the table) or he ends up getting ripped up every magic phase.

Archers-
The letters, Crushers, and Flamers are all very suceptible to archer units. Ideally, nice 20 man blocks that you can reform and magic into the flank of something would be best. You would be amazed how long a skeleton block in the flank can contain a Thirster, with proper ressing. Further, if the Thirster does not have armor upgrades (or even if he does) they are a huge threat to him, as well.

Tomb Scorpions-
Not only are these guys money against the hounds, they are great for assasinating heralds. Without the heralds, his units are a lot weaker. The best possible use for them, however, is to lock down his flamer units.

Light Horsemen-
A couple of cheap throw away units to deflect charges into lala land are a good way to give your ranged units time to work. He cannot afford to let these guys flank his hound units, or he will be stuck forever, so use them agressively, especially in tandem with the scorpions.

fubukii
25-03-2009, 22:23
i agree with most of those points except that light horsemen arent worth taking at all. And his doc army will get mr3 vs the casket not worth taking.

Malorian
25-03-2009, 22:25
I thought the latest FAQ got around that and that now you don't get MR against the casket.

Edit: Ya just checked it out and now that you get MR only if you are 'targetted' and not 'effected' then you don't get MR against the casket.

fubukii
26-03-2009, 02:57
the casket faq says otherwise.

lachlanwizard
26-03-2009, 04:59
what is more recent?

Nerhesi
27-03-2009, 13:08
the latest faq is more recent but it apparently doesn't mean much. Specific always beats general when it comes to rules.

So at a tournament, count on MR stopping your casket.

Basically, you really don't have a chance. Nothing in your army will be able to kill anything in his army effectively.

You have very few higher-str attacks (str 5+) and he has a ward save on everything - which means you need a lot of str 5+ attacks.

The only way to do so is to bring Ushabti, which will die - quickly.

As someone above me said - pick another game. Or, hope he comes in with 2000 points worth of furies.

Sam W.

fastcarfreak
27-03-2009, 15:56
I think loading up on poison archers and the special character should do quite good. With 2 units of 20 skeleton archers and a unit of 10 skeleton archers as you said, that is 100 shots per turn. Poison bows mean, that you will get 16.66 wounds on a thirster, just from poison, then you have a small chance to get wounds on him from the normal hits you cause. If I remember correctly, you can even rank your skellies up and they will all be able to shoot at the thirster. The thirster should die within 2 rounds of shooting no problem.

selone
27-03-2009, 16:18
the latest faq is more recent but it apparently doesn't mean much. Specific always beats general when it comes to rules.

So at a tournament, count on MR stopping your casket.

Basically, you really don't have a chance. Nothing in your army will be able to kill anything in his army effectively.

You have very few higher-str attacks (str 5+) and he has a ward save on everything - which means you need a lot of str 5+ attacks.

The only way to do so is to bring Ushabti, which will die - quickly.

As someone above me said - pick another game. Or, hope he comes in with 2000 points worth of furies.

Sam W.

Are you sure about this? The TK book is a 6th ed book whereas the FAQ is very recent. Wheres the guidance that army books always take precedence over FAQ no matter what?

Bac5665
27-03-2009, 16:33
The TK FAQ is premised on a rule that is entirely different now. The TK FAQ cannot be valid when the rule it's clarifying no longer exists.