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View Full Version : The "Whatdoyoumeanyouplayitonordinarypaper!!??" mindset...



Trench_Raider
24-03-2009, 20:58
(First off in the spirit of full disclosure, the above title is not a Trenchie original. It was borrowed from an old issue of "Miniature Wargames" which featured a humorus article that lampooned different types of gamer. One of these was the "Fantasy Frother" which was a not too disguised shot at GW fans and featured that wonderful phrase.)

Anyway, this all starts with a thread I saw recently over at a competing Warhammer web forum. On it someone asked if using a Soul Grinder as a Defiler would be an acceptable "counts as" proxy. I took interest in the thread as I had thought about doing the exact same thing for my newly repainted Slaaneshi CSM army. (I think the Soul grinder is a much better looking model and it could do double duty in my Daemon army as well) Well most people who responded to the thread took a reasonable view of the question, but to my horror there were two or three people who stated that no it would not be an acceptable proxy and that they would object to playing against such as that, especially in a competative setting.

I've seen this sort of thing again and again over the years both in person and on these forums and it always makes me shake my head. But were does this mindset come from? To determine this, we have to go back to the original question in regards to the Soul Grinder proxy that sparked my interest.

What reasonable person could find grounds to object to such a proxy? Certainly in legalistic terms it's a violation of the much vaunted "WYSIWYG" rules. But it is certainly within the spirit of that rule. Aside from forcing people to buy more miniatures if they want options, the main purpose of WYSIWYG is to avoid hard feelings that might stem from misunderstandings caused by proxy models. But the Soul Grinder proxy is not really in that catagory, is it? There is no other option aside from the Defiler that any player who is halfway awake could mistake it for. It fits the bill quite nicely as a "counts as" for that vehicle...in fact the models share many of the same parts for god's sake. It's a far cry from the "all my heavy bolters are actually lascannons" type of proxy that WYSIWYG is designed to stop. So I ask again what reasonable person, even in a tournament, would object to such a proxy?

The type who takes everything GW says seriously and feels that their "company line" is the only way to play the game....the "WHATDOYUOMEANYOUPLAYITONORDINARYPAPER!!11!??" crowd.

GW would of course object to such a common sense use of the "counts as" rule as it would represent a lost sale. Just as the Daemon and Chaos armies were seperated to encourage players to build more than one army and they would no doubt object to the use of square based WFB figures doing double duty in 40k armies, this sort of thing flies in the face of a set of tourny/in store gaming rules and a encouraged mindset designed solely with their bottom line in mind and must be discouraged. It's shameful, but there is a minority of players out there who have drank the GW Koolaid quite deaeply and takes everything they say as gospel...sometimes to the extreme that they would object to even the most common sense deviations from the GW orthidoxy.

What do you think of the "WHATDOYOUMEANYOUPLAYITONORDINARYPAPER!!1!??" crowd and what steps can we as a community take to open their eyes?

TR

njfed
24-03-2009, 21:25
I play chaos. While I don't use a defiler, I thought the soul grinder would make an incredible "counts as" proxy. There is no use trying to change someone's mind if they are that set in their ways. Just let them take the loss in the tournament for not playing you and your legal counts as model.

sydbridges
24-03-2009, 21:30
Couldn't you just magnetize the Soul Grinder and just stick on a giant phallus - I mean battlecannon - and have it WYSIWYG?

Lord Damocles
24-03-2009, 21:31
What reasonable person could find grounds to object to such a proxy? Certainly in legalistic terms it's a violation of the much vaunted "WYSIWYG" rules. But it is certainly within the spirit of that rule.
While I might not object, the Soul Grinder doesn't have a Battle Cannon, so its weapons aren’t all shown on the model as it comes. I can see how this *could* cause confusion - either through people who may not have faced a Grinder / Defiler before (yay, Marines vs Marines!) suddenly getting a Battle cannon shot to the face out of nowhere; or through less scrupulous players getting some sort of advantage out of the weapon not being modelled (OK, so I can't think of how you could get an advantage out of it, but that's never stopped people in the past :p)


What do you think of the "WHATDOYOUMEANYOUPLAYITONORDINARYPAPER!!1!??" crowd?
I personally prefer everything to be WYSIWYG where possible and sensible - I wouldn't refuse to play against a Grinder-Defiler, but I'd rather it had the proper weapons modelled onto it.

Personally I don't see the problem with people generally expecting models to be what they are...



Just as the Daemon and Chaos armies were separated to encourage players to build more than one army
In the interests of being opposed to the 'Warseer Chaos Hate-Fest' (WCHF), they might have been separated because the last Chaos codex was shockingly unbalanced... but that's a topic for another thread entirely...

Trench_Raider
24-03-2009, 21:33
You two are missing the point. This thread is not so much about the proxy question the other player posed. That's a given. It's more about the sad phenomenon of people who refuse to look at anything other than the way GW tells them they should.

TR

djinn8
24-03-2009, 21:35
I think this attitude is going to change in the near future given the special character army traits system and the home-brewed armies that many people have.

sydbridges
24-03-2009, 21:37
You two are missing the point. This thread is not so much about the proxy question the other player posed. That's a given. It's more about the sad phenomenon of people who refuse to look at anything other than the way GW tells them they should.

TR

Certainly I think it's an overdramatic reaction to a fairly straightfoward proxying, but if you have an opponent who gets bent out of shape about this, there's a (relatively) easy solution besides trying to get them to undrink the kool aid.

El_Phen
24-03-2009, 21:45
To be honest, I don't think that there's a lot that CAN be done to change such a mind set. To quote Pratchett 'The leopard does not change its shorts.' If someone is going to be so petty as to say that a Soul Grinder looks nothing like a Defiler so wont play it then I doubt even a 14 hour Power Point presentation and a 'Baseball Bat with nails in of correction' would change them. If you really wanted to try, I suppose you could say that the Soul Grinder was 'spitting' a battlecannon shell or some other ludicrous statement to placate their sense of outrage.

Trench_Raider
24-03-2009, 21:47
Certainly I think it's an overdramatic reaction to a fairly straightfoward proxying, but if you have an opponent who gets bent out of shape about this, there's a (relatively) easy solution besides trying to get them to undrink the kool aid.

Fair enough.
Someone here called such things a handy "jerk detector". If they react like that to such silly issues you should not be playing them in the first place. hell, I'd probably throw a tourny game and refuse to play such a person.

Ok, I'm going to bite in regards to the speficis of the mentioned proxy one time. Like I said this thread is not about that...


While I might not object, the Soul Grinder doesn't have a Battle Cannon, so its weapons aren’t all shown on the model as it comes.

My answer to someone who brought up that argument would be quite simple "See that big gun he has in his mouth? THAT'S the battle cannon."

and finally...


Personally I don't see the problem with people generally expecting models to be what they are...

Fair enough.
But once again there are things that follows in the spirit of why WYSIWYG exists (aside from the whole making GW more money thing of course) and there is WYSIWYG fetishism. The former is understandable and the latter is a personality flaw.

TR

MEanBOb12
24-03-2009, 21:48
Well that crowd consists of people who seem to be compelled to immediately correct any perceived mistakes in any instance. They are insecure with sloppiness, or they just feel better when they are flaunting their "intelligence."

I would assume this group to be rules lawyers as well.

Egaeus
24-03-2009, 21:50
Just to play devil's advocate, one could question why I have to go out and buy GW's models at all...I could just as easily buy a bag of much cheaper plastic army men and drop them down as an IG army. Heck, if one wanted to you could even paint them up and base them nicely.

Basically I want to bring that up to show that there is a line, and it must be drawn somewhere. Obviously, people's ideas of where exactly that line must be drawn will differ. Some people will go extremely conservative and insist that everything be "official". I would suspect that most players will be more lenient, especially when the item in question won't be easy to confuse. Then there will be those that allow the "plastic army men" Guard, although again I suspect that they will be a fairly rare lot.

One thing that I think is important to note is that all the Games Workshop games are a specialized hobby and it isn't inexpensive...so I can understand sometimes why people get upset when people appear to be trying to skirt the rules so they can do things "on the cheap".

[edit: OK, "skirting the rules is a bit of hyperbole on my part, as wysiwyg is a creative part of the game. I don't mean to imply that anyone is strictly breaking the rules...just that saying "I want to use model A for Model B because I don't want to have to buy both A and B could seem to some to be a bit of a cop out.]

You do mention the tournament setting...and this is another important distinction. If the tournament rules disallow something, then them's the rules...and you can choose not to play if you want.

SimonL
24-03-2009, 22:33
WYSIWYG is an interesting debate. I mean, if I want to try a different weapons combo on a Dread that's glued, or different weapon sponsons on a Predator, and I can't because of WYSIWYG, that's too far for me.

However, I'd object to a bunch of plastic army men, or a shoebox as a land raider. Once you've gone that far, why even be bothered to buy the minis at all? You could just get scraps of paper with names on them lol.

Akuma
24-03-2009, 22:35
I personally prefer everything to be WYSIWYG where possible and sensible - I wouldn't refuse to play against a Grinder-Defiler, but I'd rather it had the proper weapons modelled onto it.

Personally I don't see the problem with people generally expecting models to be what they are...

QFT - It is a very thin line between using a SG to represent Defiler and using Plastic Ken to prox a Giant - ( yeah It acctualy did happen OR GW trees with eyes made from GS - Its an Treeman :/ )

Well - I want to say that Im so anal about it because I pay lods of $$$ for minis - just because I like battles on tabletop - it is so plastic and it tingles my esthetic sens. If someone says - this marines are acctualy edlar I will play him but will strongly encoruge him to acctualy collect eldar - as playing with fully painted adequat miniatures is SO much nicer then Gray Legion or that kind of stuff

Thud
24-03-2009, 23:14
I only start having problems with proxying when I have to keep asking, round after round, what's what in my opponent's army. Heck, I'd even be fine with ''all my heavy bolters are really lascannons." It's consistent so I should be able to remember it without too much fussing about, it's not like I'm senile or anything. Although, I consistently fail to remember to do my Eldar psychic powers in the beginning of the turn... Wait, what was I saying again...?

IAMNOTHERE
24-03-2009, 23:28
The "this is how GW would want it" mind set you put forward doesn't wash with me at all.

For the past couple of years GW has been trying through articles in WD and by showing off conversions and how to actually do them to move away from this.

Many a columinist in WD has even expoused the more "have fun" attitude. The new ork codex has practicaly encouraged players to convert things.

I've even experienced it first hand at Warhammer world with my almost fully converted Ad Mech army. No store I've been to has ever turned away my arco flagellent/rough rider conversions, my MegaNob/Ogryn crossovers or my defiler/knight constructions.

Half the time I don't even play with a GW sanctioned codex and no one minds, they just think it's cool to bring a different dimension to the hobby.

The only place I've seen problems is in tournies, where overzealous players have penalised their opponent for having 2 seeker missiles modeled rather than 3 or some such nonsense. Still some people are WAAC players but I wouldn't put GW there.

Templar Ben
24-03-2009, 23:58
Why would one object to plastic army men again? Is it because GW didn't make them?

sydbridges
25-03-2009, 00:10
GW trees with eyes made from GS - Its an Treeman

As long as some effort was made... I'd actually be kind of impressed with the creativity.


Why would one object to plastic army men again? Is it because GW didn't make them?

Well, a lot of the plastic army men I've seen would be grossly out of scale with GW stuff...

arachnid
25-03-2009, 00:33
One or two proxies here and there is all well and good.

A big jumble of mixed tau, kroot, eldar dark angels and orks, all counting as
something else, just won't do, just no fun to play against. (not regularly anyway)

I'd rather play paper-hammer, at least then ya could write on them what they are.
(actually i'm going to do just that this weekend, as i'm starting up fantasy and wanna get a feel for it before committing)


However, if i'm going to a tournament, i'm expecting to see painted armies that follow wysiwyg and are virtually free of odd proxies.
(or at least easy to remember)


I really don't understand what the problem with wysiwyg is, it is there to make things easier for all involved.
By all means be creative, but please don't force me to either
ask what everything is supposed to be for every other model,
or make bad decisions in the game that will make me lose.




A soul grinder isn't a far stretch as proxies go by any means, however the LOS from the grinders weapons are different than from the defilers, and may cause some headaches in a competitive setting..


green Army men?
sure, i'll just go get my red army men.


2 c's

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
25-03-2009, 00:49
Well, the plastic army men would look very crappy. If you sculpted your own guys, or used another company's nice-looking minis, that would be cool.

self biased
25-03-2009, 01:01
summary?

i'm told i must lengthen my message.

may i please get a summary?

Hashshashin
25-03-2009, 01:03
I think it is a fine line but I do feel, as others have stated, there is a line.

I converted 2 defilers into a Brass Scorpion but left the weapons so they would be WYSIWYG for a Defiler. It doubles as both depending on if I am playing Regular 40K or APOC. To me that's totally legit, in fact I don't even consider it a proxy, it's a conversion.

And since it has all the appropriate weapons I don't see any problems at all.

Also I think it's important to distinguise between throwing down a game with some homies at a local store as opposed to a tournament. One is actually "competitive" and the other is for "fun."

*The thing to always remember is that it's a game*

Dranthar
25-03-2009, 01:32
A short while back I ran a local 40k tournament. One of the individuals who came brought an Ork army with 3 battlewagons, stock standard kit, with no extra frills. What makes this unusual is that before the Battlewagon kit was released he had used scratch built mini-stompas instead, which looked quite awesome.

A friend of mine asked him about this and his reason for switching from stompas to GW Battlewagons? Apparently the stompas weren't tournament legal - they had the wrong size 'footprint' on the table (note that the difference wasn't huge - somewhat wider and certainly not as long, but that's it).

He didn't ask me, as the TO, about whether using his Stompas would have been a problem, so I'm guessing he switched to GW battlewagons to avoid any potential sportsmanship/composition hits for using a non-WYSIWYG list. Of course that's totally his choice, but I think it was a real pity that he was concerned enough about WYSIWYG to prevent him using some otherwise awesome models.

On another note, Bloodbowl is pretty big here in Perth, with regular leagues and tournaments. So would you play against this goblin team? It's not mine but it's pretty sweet if you ask me. ;)

(original link here (http://westgamer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6709))

Templar Ben
25-03-2009, 01:54
On another note, Bloodbowl is pretty big here in Perth, with regular leagues and tournaments. So would you play against this goblin team?

I prefer creativity so I would have no problem.


Well, the plastic army men would look very crappy. If you sculpted your own guys, or used another company's nice-looking minis, that would be cool.

Define crappy? Weapons, arms, heads, and bodies are all proportional so I guess you may have an issue with reality. :p


Well, a lot of the plastic army men I've seen would be grossly out of scale with GW stuff...

GW stuff is not in scale. Look at the infantry compared to the vehicles. ;)

Serg. Lynchbox
25-03-2009, 01:57
While I might not object, the Soul Grinder doesn't have a Battle Cannon, so its weapons aren’t all shown on the model as it comes. I can see how this *could* cause confusion - either through people who may not have faced a Grinder / Defiler before (yay, Marines vs Marines!) suddenly getting a Battle cannon shot to the face out of nowhere; or through less scrupulous players getting some sort of advantage out of the weapon not being modelled (OK, so I can't think of how you could get an advantage out of it, but that's never stopped people in the past :p)


I personally prefer everything to be WYSIWYG where possible and sensible - I wouldn't refuse to play against a Grinder-Defiler, but I'd rather it had the proper weapons modelled onto it.

Personally I don't see the problem with people generally expecting models to be what they are...


I personally prefer everything to be WYSIWYG where possible and sensible - I wouldn't refuse to play against a Grinder-Defiler, but I'd rather it had the proper weapons modelled onto it.

I would just say the battle cannon came from the Souldgrinders mouth. Around the same size of the barrel and height? Now you can see where it came from. The flamers could be a problem but you could just add it onto the arm. The autocannon could come from the cannon on the models right arm. It very similar to the Defiler and looks a lot better. Same size, same area where the Defilers weapon would be.

So now you can know where that Daemon bound Battlecannon shell came from. Its mouth!

Not to be rude or intimidating but would you accept this in a regular or even a small tournament? I plan to do this and just wanted to ask someone about where the weapons come from etc. So if I give you the fluff on it (battle cannon) would you accept the proxy (not really a proxy to me).

If people want to go by this invisible GW book then fine but they're going to find themselves short on opponents. Let them play their games amongst themselves and be proud that they have exactly everything right in the books. I just don't want a whole amount of models being proxies.... it get very confusing and the models could be ridiculous. I had a kid use his Ork bikes as Zapp Gunz for his Orks. This was annoying cause mainly he proxies his entire army. That is not acceptable for me.

sydbridges
25-03-2009, 01:57
GW stuff is not in scale. Look at the infantry compared to the vehicles. ;)

True, but if the army men are too tall, they might be tall enough to grant cover to the blah blah blah...

I'd be pretty laid back, as long as I wasn't expected to remember that the green one with the rifle has a lasgun, but the other green one with the rifle has a missile launcher, and the other green one with the rifle has the flamer.

Templar Ben
25-03-2009, 02:14
My boys have the little green army men so I play against them quite a bit.

Occulto
25-03-2009, 02:47
It's more about the sad phenomenon of people who refuse to look at anything other than the way GW tells them they should.

TR

I can't recall the last time GW told me that I couldn't use a soul grinder as a defiler.

Citation needed? :p

SimonL
25-03-2009, 03:05
My issue is not the conversion, or WYSIWYG itself, it's the effort involved. If someone made an awesome treeman out of Green Stuff and GW trees, that would be cool. However, if they plunk a plastic plant on the table and say "Treeman"...that is fail, epic fail...

Madgear Thundaklutch
25-03-2009, 04:38
It's more about the sad phenomenon of people who refuse to look at anything other than the way GW tells them they should.

TR


Ya know, when I found out our local GW was closing in Jan., I freaked. I was curious what would happen to the local hobby scene and what not. Things stabilized and clubs formed, etc. However the one thing I have noticed is a certain sense of freedom when it comes to my hobby. I know longer have Bg Brother GW looking over my shoulder to make sure all my models are 75% or more GW products. Its nice. Refreshing. I can build my battle wagons out of something other than a Landraider, or the official kit.

People need to lighten the F up, and so being so pissy towards people who want to play using counts as models. The soul grinder is a sexy model, much more so than the defiler. The defiler doesnt look like the possessed warmachine its supposed to be, it just looks like a warmachine. The soul grinder is a possessed looking machine, and should be a replacement for the defiler.

Madgear Thundaklutch
25-03-2009, 04:40
I can't recall the last time GW told me that I couldn't use a soul grinder as a defiler.

Citation needed? :p



Its not so much GW, its people who have closed minds. If you read the post about using a monolith as a pylon for a friendly game, you may see what I mean. That example is a bit of a stretch, but the responses were not so friendly.

Occulto
25-03-2009, 05:12
Its not so much GW, its people who have closed minds. If you read the post about using a monolith as a pylon for a friendly game, you may see what I mean. That example is a bit of a stretch, but the responses were not so friendly.

Oh I completely agree. I've met enough closed minded people.

I was more curious about the OP's comments like:


The type who takes everything GW says seriously and feels that their "company line" is the only way to play the game....the "WHATDOYUOMEANYOUPLAYITONORDINARYPAPER!!11!??" crowd.


GW would of course object to such a common sense use of the "counts as" rule as it would represent a lost sale.


It's shameful, but there is a minority of players out there who have drank the GW Koolaid quite deaeply and takes everything they say as gospel...sometimes to the extreme that they would object to even the most common sense deviations from the GW orthidoxy.

Surely if this was "official" policy, it'd be fairly easy to show me where it is.

I've seen plenty of armies featured in WD that used creative conversions and counts as. If it was official policy that WYSIWYG should be so restrictive as the OP implies, then why would these armies be promoted? Anyone else remember the Tonka Trukk Ork army, or the undead High Elf army?

I've run GW supported tournaments, but never received anything from them listing what is and isn't official. Seems strange that if they were so hardcore about making sure everyone bought the "proper" figures that they'd list it as a requirement for prize support.

I've played against armies at a GW GT which included non-citadel figures!!!

For something so "official" it's pretty loosely enforced.

Want people who'll kick up a stink about using the right models? Hang round some of the more hardcore players of historical games. They get weird if the paintjobs aren't 100% right.

Gareth Lorn
25-03-2009, 05:31
I personally have no problem with easy-to-remember counts-as. All the heavy bolters are lasguns? Yeah, sure. That Warlock with the wtichblade actually has a singing spear? Not a problem. the one Guardsmen with two laspistols counts as having a lasgun? Sure thing. So you're saying this lorry you stole from Flames of War made bigger with greenstuff is a chimera? Well, your regimental fluff is known for its scavenger mindset...

I care more about a game that is fluffy than a game that follows the rules, which is why I let my friend use his lorry as a chimera, provided he can tell me why. However, I have played against one person who wouldn't let me use the Dreadnought I had made Orky count as an Ork Deff Dredd, because an actual Deff Dredd model existed and I should be using that. Not a fun game.

souljaking09
25-03-2009, 05:38
on the one hand it adds a lot better feel to have the real models, but I am sympathetic to people who can't afford the real models. I would allow it since I am stuck at 500 points of catachans and know how it feels to not be able to play some games because you are not rich enough.

Masakados
25-03-2009, 13:35
First of all, excuse my poor english, itīs not my native language. Iīm spanish (from Spain, Europe, not Mexico :P)

I am a long time reader, but I donīt use to post... too lazy :)

Iīm one of these people who uses a Soul Grinder as a Defiler. Not for beign cheaper (it isnīt, at least here in Spain... the Defiler and SG have the same price), but just for the looks.

I wanted a Defiler for my CSM army, but the "official" defiler model, imho, sucks. A lot. So I decided to pick a SG to "proxy" the Defiler, just because I think the defiler model is really awful and ugly.

So far, I didnīt had a problem with that, since I use to explain to my oponent "that is a Defiler and it has this or that weapon options".

Some people can say Iīm wrong, but I donīt agree with that. In the other hand , I never field a model unpainted, itīs like a personal rule, but I know a few people who complains about proxys, and their models are all plastic/metal grey.

Coragus
25-03-2009, 13:47
If I'm at a game that isn't Apoc, and someone puts a Brass Scorpian on the table, then I'd probably say something like, "What's that, the Defiler that isn't cool enough to play with his friends and got himself demoted?" That would be it.

At a recent Warhammer tourney, I told my opponent that he'd forgotten to roll for Stupidity on his Troll, the model from the box set that is holding a stone up in the air. He said it wasn't a Troll, it was a stone thrower. He'd even modeled little gobbos on the large base behind the Troll, handing him stones.

Baragash
25-03-2009, 14:08
I got two criteria:
1. can I reasonably remember what the models are during the game?
2. does it look like the model was chosen to gain any significant LoS advantage?

If it's 1. "Yes" and 2. "No", I got no problem.

(I say "significant" because I can't imagine the outline/footprint will be exactly identical to the model it represents)

Marlow
25-03-2009, 14:09
However, I'd object to a bunch of plastic army men, or a shoebox as a land raider. Once you've gone that far, why even be bothered to buy the minis at all? You could just get scraps of paper with names on them lol.

I think the WYSIWYG debate needs splitting between fun games with friends and Tournaments (local or otherwise). People at our club have tried out new armies with just bases cut out from card to see if they like the Army before investing $$$ into it.

If your friends are fine for you to try stuff out then go for it! ;)
I have proxied a Plasma Cannon on my Dread to see if I want to build one (and now I do) however without the opportunity to try it I would never have bothered to spend the time constructing one.

Tournaments by their nature require a bit more consistancy. SG as Defilers are fine (but you might want to mount some weapons on it) but plasic cups for Drop Pods are not.

isaac
25-03-2009, 14:27
I see it as three levels

1. Try out proxies, this styrofoam one is a drop-pod, etc. Proxies just to see if it works in your

2. A reasonable facsimile These unpainted tac marines are assault marines. My only dread has lascannon and autoannon

3. Awesome proxies/conversions, something you put some work into, easy to recognize and looks awesome.

El_Phen
25-03-2009, 14:31
Now, before I start I just thought that I'd say that what I do I'm doing because I think it's cool and nobody complains. After looking at the article and quickly glancing at my own collection of stuff I thought I'd throw this one into the mix. My Space Marine army is supposed to have 'ambiguous' affiliations (lots and lots of flufff reasons which my gaming group are aware of) and so, depending on the army they're fighting/campaign they're fighting they can be either 'Imperial' or 'Renegade'.

Anyway, I've concerted most of my marines, vehicles and dreadnoughts so that they can pass for being part of either a renegade force or an imperial one. No eight pointed stars or giant Khorne symbols or anything like that but skull helmets, arm swaps and the like. They are, for the most part painted in my armies colour so they're more or less uniform (obviously barring the converted bits) and you (my opponent) can tell who's got what and that they're fighting with my marines (unless this week the Heavy Bolters are Las Cannons ;) ). Now, the issue is that there's no way on this green Earth that I'm going to spend the amounts of money I need to make two seperate forces of Imperials painted whatever colour and 'Black Legion' renegades. I've got a defiler or two (one's in pieces) and it's not unusual to see them with the ambiguous marines. I'll tell whoever I'm playing that I'm a renegade or an Imperial this week but I refuse to buy or change my force so that it can only be on or the other.

souljaking09
25-03-2009, 14:57
First of all, excuse my poor english, itīs not my native language. Iīm spanish (from Spain, Europe, not Mexico :P)

I am a long time reader, but I donīt use to post... too lazy :)

Iīm one of these people who uses a Soul Grinder as a Defiler. Not for beign cheaper (it isnīt, at least here in Spain... the Defiler and SG have the same price), but just for the looks.

I wanted a Defiler for my CSM army, but the "official" defiler model, imho, sucks. A lot. So I decided to pick a SG to "proxy" the Defiler, just because I think the defiler model is really awful and ugly.

So far, I didnīt had a problem with that, since I use to explain to my oponent "that is a Defiler and it has this or that weapon options".

Some people can say Iīm wrong, but I donīt agree with that. In the other hand , I never field a model unpainted, itīs like a personal rule, but I know a few people who complains about proxys, and their models are all plastic/metal grey.

I understand why you say you are spanish, not mexican. Many people in the U.S. confuse the two since mexicans speak spanish and they are closest to us. I am smart enough to know they are not the same though.:D Sort of like the difference between arabs and muslims. Most people think the two are intertwined. While in fact, Islam is a religion and arab is an ethnic group. Sorry, that was kind of off topic.

I don't know if I would play against those birds. I mean, could you make your team look any more ridiculous. I would never play 40K against hello kitty. If you can't afford something at least make it look somewhat like what it is representing.

Templar Ben
25-03-2009, 15:06
I don't know if I would play against those birds. I mean, could you make your team look any more ridiculous. I would never play 40K against hello kitty. If you can't afford something at least make it look somewhat like what it is representing.

So no Hello Kitty Marines
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3154/dscn8009ok3.jpg

or Hello Kitty Sisters of Battle?
http://www.exlibrismortis.org/ExLibrisnewSistersArmy.html

For shame.:chrome:

souljaking09
25-03-2009, 15:10
So no Hello Kitty Marines
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3154/dscn8009ok3.jpg

or Hello Kitty Sisters of Battle?
http://www.exlibrismortis.org/ExLibrisnewSistersArmy.html

For shame.:chrome:

Come on. I want to play a manly war game. Not only would it look stupid to other people, but it would destroy the feel of the game. I don't take kindly to making a mockery of the game.

The Highwayman
25-03-2009, 15:25
Come on. I want to play a manly war game. Not only would it look stupid to other people, but it would destroy the feel of the game. I don't take kindly to making a mockery of the game.

I don't understand how it would destroy the feel of the game tbh. I play 40k for fun and I wouldn't mind playing that army at all, in fact it would probally make the experience even better and more enjoyable. If the guy has put in the effot in making a fun army, I wouldn't hold it against him. It's just a game in the end which I find enjoying, especially when you get to have a laugh.

I hardy see how it makes a mockery of the game, it's just a fun army. Besides, the game is played to have fun, so I wouldn't care if it was making fun of warhammer, as long as it's funny.

isaac
25-03-2009, 15:26
I named a SM sergeant Bob, who leads the 10 man squad of Bob's Badasess, My captain has a gun named Vera, My dreadnaught is named fred and every marine has their own unique name. I am making somewhat fun of it, but I think as long as effort is put in and it makes me laugh when I see it (googly-eye nids), let it in.

Templar Ben
25-03-2009, 15:26
Come on indeed. The game itself is a mockery. They took WFB (in SPAAAAACE!!!) and then mined all of the Sci Fi available in the mid 1980 for various other additions to the game. It has Orcs (in SPAAAAACE!!), Elves (in SPAAAAAACE!!), Alien (already in space), Terminator, and now Manga. The Imp of Man is just the Imperium from Dune and the genetically engineered super soldier is as old as Captain America.

Seriously.

Masakados
25-03-2009, 15:35
I named a SM sergeant Bob


Hehe, nice :) I named my Nurgle Demon Prince "Jose Luis" (Joseph Lewis, for all the english/USA people) and he has made a name for himself in my local gaming club :p

My friends donīt say "so, are you fielding you Demon Prince today?", they say "Hey, did you bring Jose Luis along today?"

His name is feared and respected ^^

isaac
25-03-2009, 15:55
Sadly Sgt. Bob is only a normal SM, though because I make such a big deal about Sgt. Bob and his squad Bob's Badasses, they are normally the first to be shot at.

IAMNOTHERE
25-03-2009, 15:56
When they brought 40k out they thought it would go the way of all the specialist games range - be popular for a year and then die off naturally.

Look at the Juggernought its' now become.

isaac
25-03-2009, 15:59
Orks, the reason why NO ONE can take 40k seriously, they take the **** out of themselves all the time.

sydbridges
25-03-2009, 16:05
Come on. I want to play a manly war game. Not only would it look stupid to other people, but it would destroy the feel of the game. I don't take kindly to making a mockery of the game.

I'm not sure there's anything particularly manly about playing with inch tall plastic figurines. It's fun, and I enjoy the game, but I don't sit there and go, "YEAH! I'M SUCH A MANLY MAN! NOW IF YOU'LL EXCUSE ME, I'M GOING TO GO DELICATELY PUT THIS FIGURINE IN ITS CASE SO IT DOESN'T BREAK! PLEASE DON'T BREATHE ON THE NIGHTBRINGER'S ARM, OR THE SCYTHE AT THE END FALLS OFF. HE'S REALLY QUITE FRAGILE! MANLY!!!"

That said, I can understand looking at a joke army and not really thinking it was that great.

sliganian
25-03-2009, 16:12
I can't recall the last time GW told me that I couldn't use a soul grinder as a defiler.

Citation needed? :p

My thoughts exactly. If anything, GW has frequently and repeatedly been distancing itself from these sorts of debates in the last few years with more 'it is a GAME, be sensible and discuss things with your opponent'. Rules at Tournaments are up to the Tournament Organizers-- not GW HQ. Even though GW has made this point many times and in many ways, some folks don't seem to get it.

Methinks the OP is stuck somewhere about 8 years ago way back in the bad old days of the GT circuits.

El'Flashman
25-03-2009, 16:18
Sorry, what's the question? Because it sounds like you've made your mind up on the proxy issue, giving a sensible, balanced and unbiased argument (with no hint of conspiracy) for why players shouldn't expect what they're looking at to be as it appears. And the final question just seems like an open invitation to have a go at players who like their opponent to put some effort into painting/building or in this case converting a suitable (proxy) model.

I mean I'm quite open to using proxies if I know what it is and I don't think the other player is abusing my goodwill but I don't think there's a lot to be gained by abusing persons with different opinions to yourself if you find they're not happy with unpainted, badly converted or unsuitable proxies/models.

bomblu
25-03-2009, 16:23
I think one should look at the individual he's playing against 1st. My friends' been collecting models for 8 years now so he's got quite a lot of his army complete (he rarely paints) but my other friend started a year ago and also rarely paints. If we just want to play a fun game we sometimes resort to using checked paper as counts as for the models so thats saying something...i also use my bret men at arms as greatsowrds or spearmen at times. I dont think one should be TOO strict when it comes to counts as, obviously, once the opponent would have told him what they represent. This is just my opinion :)

Hellgore
25-03-2009, 16:26
I would just say the battle cannon came from the Souldgrinders mouth. Around the same size of the barrel and height? Now you can see where it came from. The flamers could be a problem but you could just add it onto the arm. The autocannon could come from the cannon on the models right arm. It very similar to the Defiler and looks a lot better. Same size, same area where the Defilers weapon would be.

So now you can know where that Daemon bound Battlecannon shell came from. Its mouth!

Not to be rude or intimidating but would you accept this in a regular or even a small tournament? I plan to do this and just wanted to ask someone about where the weapons come from etc. So if I give you the fluff on it (battle cannon) would you accept the proxy (not really a proxy to me).


I'd have no problem playing you, or as a tourneyorganizer let you play the sg as defiler. Better model anyway ;) I just had a Tourney where a really creative guy brought his custodian army which he plays as daemonhunters. Great conversions of minis, "proxy" Stern (he used a totally different model) and a "baneraider" (selfbuild mixture of baneblade and landraider), equipped with the apropriate weapons, even if sometimes just similar, not exactly the same (hurricanebs on the baneraider was a selfconstructed alternativ). Why should someone not play this army? It's the same with the defiler/soulgrinder imho. It's not really a proxy but already close to a conversion like the one mentioned here. Wysiwig is important but it's not something to be anal retentive about. Just makes that kind of person a jerk. I try to be as wysiwig as possible and magnetize my preds, razorbacks, speeders and so on or buy the needed models. I can afford it, some can't. As long as their "proxying" doesn't take overhand, I let them. For example take a plasma-marine in a sternguardsquad as equipped with combi-plasma is no prob for me. But I would veto a mixture of equally equipped models that should count as different ones.

Corrode
25-03-2009, 16:34
So no Hello Kitty Marines
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3154/dscn8009ok3.jpg

or Hello Kitty Sisters of Battle?
http://www.exlibrismortis.org/ExLibrisnewSistersArmy.html

For shame.:chrome:

The Marines are quite ****. The Sisters are hilarious though :D

Hellgore
25-03-2009, 16:37
Surely if this was "official" policy, it'd be fairly easy to show me where it is.

I've seen plenty of armies featured in WD that used creative conversions and counts as. If it was official policy that WYSIWYG should be so restrictive as the OP implies, then why would these armies be promoted? Anyone else remember the Tonka Trukk Ork army, or the undead High Elf army?

I've run GW supported tournaments, but never received anything from them listing what is and isn't official. Seems strange that if they were so hardcore about making sure everyone bought the "proper" figures that they'd list it as a requirement for prize support.

I've played against armies at a GW GT which included non-citadel figures!!!

For something so "official" it's pretty loosely enforced.

Want people who'll kick up a stink about using the right models? Hang round some of the more hardcore players of historical games. They get weird if the paintjobs aren't 100% right.


Hehe, yeah qft - I have friends playing Contemptible Little Armies and I have to shake my head when I hear them talk about something like "well, in february 1916 the color of the belts were a bit darker than in march 1916 so this doesn't fit". Well, they're all like this so let them have their fun with their historical perfectness obsession...

IJW
25-03-2009, 16:40
When they brought 40k out they thought it would go the way of all the specialist games range - be popular for a year and then die off naturally.
Huh? 40k predates the idea of a 'specialist games range' by about a decade. That said, it was wildly more successful than expected.

Mouldsta
25-03-2009, 16:52
Some people are determined to think that GW is an evil company that's out to get them;

No store I've ever been in would object to a soul grinder being a defiler, especially if it's painted to fit with the army. Even tournaments, as long as it has something to represent a battlecannon modelled onto it to satisfy WYSIWYG people is fine.

Every store daemon army is either on square bases and just used for 40K as is, or on round bases with custom movement trays to be used for fantasy. No store would ever paint 2 daemon armies just because of the bases, and no store would ever tell ther customers to (they'd be more likely to do the opposite - "why not use your daemons for fantasy?")

"Having" to have GW models (or at least mostly) only really applies in stores or official tournaments - since they pay for the stores, don't charge you, and your game is likely to get watched by customers it's not an unreasonable request. This is because this is the face of the business, so having 2 people playing with matchsticks isn't exactly a compelling and exciting thing that will draw new cutomers in. Similarly, if all their photos of the GT printed in WD were of people using green plastic armymen it would be crap as well - I'd die a bit inside if I saw that. At home, or anywhere that's not the official front of the business you can do (and are encouraged to do) whatever you like.
I do wonder sometimes about the people who scream that it's horribly unfair they can't use their random bits of shonk to play games in GW stores if they also put up a massive arguement about not being allowed to drink tinnies in pubs, or take packed lunches to restaurants.

Some of the "you must do this" just comes from fanboys with no actual GW backing (in fact usually the opposite), e.g.

GW: "We've painted our High Elves Blue and White, because that's the colours we like, and personally think suit them well. Feel free to paint your own High Elves any colour you like. Infact, here's some examples of different colours to inspire you"

Normal Hobbyist: "I think I'll paint mine green and brown"

Crazed Fanboy: "ARRGGHHH you can't paint them green and brown, that's wood elf colours, you HAVE to paint them blue and white just like the photo in WD, any other colour than exactly the studio colour scheme isn't allowed!"

Determined to be Jaded Hobbyist: "You're only saying that because GW tells you say that, with their official policing and vice like grip of what colours you have to paint your high elves. Just another example of GW enforcing their rule on something, as otherwise they won't sell enough blue and white paint"

Rirekon
25-03-2009, 17:12
As long as I only need telling once or twice what something is representing I really don't care what you field to be honest. Whether you're some badass Golden Demon winner who's scratch built an entire Imperial Guard force to scale with different faces on every model or you've got a half-built no base coat army of bears which are counts-as Marines it's all good.

Elitism is what kills hobbies and spoils fun, seriously. Go and have a look at "true" historical wargaming if you want to see the death of fun, that is what being elitist about things gets you.

Emperor's Grace
25-03-2009, 17:30
Come on. I want to play a manly war game.

Maybe football, paintball, or airsoft would be better then? :D

What exactly is "manly" (in the classic sense) about pushing around chits and or chit substitutes? If anything, I'd say that leans toward the classic "intellectual" stereotype - not the "manly" one.

Unless, of course, you're playing laser obstacle 40K or determine turn order by greco-roman wrestling for it. :D


On topic...

As long as it doesn't confuse me, I'm OK with it. I need to know what it is before we start and would like the base and weapon(s) to match the intended item. But I'm also OK with an appropriate (base/hull) sized piece of cardstock with "Land Raider" written on it, if that's what my friend needs to do to play.

WSIWYG is there to stop arguments, not start new ones...

gitburna
25-03-2009, 17:34
Well most people who responded to the thread took a reasonable view of the question, but to my horror there were two or three people who stated that no it would not be an acceptable proxy and that they would object to playing against such as that, especially in a competative setting.

SNIP.

The type who takes everything GW says seriously and feels that their "company line" is the only way to play the game....the "WHATDOYUOMEANYOUPLAYITONORDINARYPAPER!!11!??" crowd.

GW would of course object to such a common sense use of the "counts as" rule as it would represent a lost sale. Just as the Daemon and Chaos armies were seperated to encourage players to build more than one army and they would no doubt object to the use of square based WFB figures doing double duty in 40k armies, this sort of thing flies in the face of a set of tourny/in store gaming rules and a encouraged mindset designed solely with their bottom line in mind and must be discouraged. It's shameful, but there is a minority of players out there who have drank the GW Koolaid quite deaeply and takes everything they say as gospel...sometimes to the extreme that they would object to even the most common sense deviations from the GW orthidoxy.



I think you're muddying the waters here between an actual GW stance and a "widely perceived" stance which has been developed by the preferences of a vocal minority of gamers through a decade of tournaments and an increase in popularity of the game.

In-store gaming is one thing (because in store, the activity of gaming helps drive the business and a defiler should be a defiler and not a dreadnought)

And the rules for tournaments are another- tournies are more likely to NOT be GW sponsored and as such any rules on proxying are the organisers decision

Having the chaos armies split in two is no big deal for me. No-one complains about the imperial guard and Inquisition (or any theoretical Adeptus Mechanicus codex) being split from the Space Marine codexes do they? This is a progress of sorts for the "chaos faction" (as opposed to the imperial faction) , and should be furthered with the new guard codex which will allow ogryns and cavalry, penal legions etc to help represent the scrofulous hordes of the LATD. So i feel that this part of your argument isn't a fair representation of GWs stance either.

Conversions and a degree of proxying have long been a part of the GW hobby and they continue to be, The Ork army (in particular gamers armies which are featured in white dwarves and online) is a whole army based on conversion and proxying to various degrees.

So to sum up, Yes, there are picky, petty, no-do-it-properly-or-not-at-all gamers out there, but for them (or you) to claim that they are following "The GW Line" is wrong.

You know, if i could, i'd like to make an analogy here... its like going to the swimming pool, they often have safety rules out there like no ducking, no dive-bombing, no running on the sides etc . The rules are there for the benefit of other people who might not be so comfortable in the water, not specifically to decrease your own enjoyment, or because "thats the correct way to enjoy yourself in the water". Nothings to stop you taking a running jump into your own pool or into the river, lake, sea etc

Hashshashin
25-03-2009, 18:05
I usually arm wrestle and/or have a chugging competeion to determine which scenario to play, then in order to determine the type of set-up we light matches using only a hatchet and finially to determine who won we knife fight to the death...with our left hands duct taped together...and the winner of the knife fight must eat the heart of fallen foe...while watching football...I am man ;)

Blinder
25-03-2009, 18:06
As long as I only need telling once or twice what something is representing I really don't care what you field to be honest. Whether you're some badass Golden Demon winner who's scratch built an entire Imperial Guard force to scale with different faces on every model or you've got a half-built no base coat army of bears which are counts-as Marines it's all good.

Elitism is what kills hobbies and spoils fun, seriously. Go and have a look at "true" historical wargaming if you want to see the death of fun, that is what being elitist about things gets you.

That's actually the one thing that's kept me from finally getting into FoW- wayyyyyyy too much of the "oh that isn't a historical unit I'm not playing make-believe" air floating around. The folks who play in my LGS seem pretty "it's a game" about it but the whole "burned in the past" thing has me wanting to watch them play a few more times...

Personally, there's a *big* difference between a "proxy" and "counts as" or "conversion." If it has all the parts, is of equivalent* size, and the equipment is WYSIWYG (which really is where the rulebooks have always emphasized from my reading- the gear on the model needs to be right, not the gear needs to be on the right model) I can't see any sane and see very few non-sane reasons to disallow it or refuse to play. If it's the fabled purple-dinosaur carnifex, on the other hand, you better either be trying it out or waiting for your order to come in. To me, the biggest thing is, "it can't introduce needless confusion." A Soul Grinder as a Defiler is pretty straightforward, whereas a meltagun/CCW dreadnought as a Defiler wouldn't fly outside of a friendly "I want to see how it works" game because it'd be too hard to figure out what was coming from where and if it *should* be able to see/be seen.

* actually, a couple weeks ago I watched a local tourney with two chaos players. One had an SG-as-Defiler *AND* a regular defiler and all of us who were there thought it worked fine, and actually was pretty interesting looks-wise next to "the real thing" because uniformity isn't exactly a hallmark of Chaos. Sure, the BC is a bit higher up on the Grinder but the Grinder was also a bit harder to hide. The other chaos player had just one Defiler, but he had customized it into a walker- stood upright on one of the big bases on two legs, and the other two legs left off (still had the "arms"). Yes, it was able to draw LOS to the whole board but it would only have been able to get a cover save from the absolute tallest bits of terrain the store had so again, folks didn't mind and mainly gawked at it and said, "oh cool!" Even a couple of the players who can get annoyed at "my bolters are lascannon" stuff. I can see that one drawing some more ire because it does change the LOS and footprint but even then the ability to see anything makes it fully visible by pretty much anything and it being a smaller target footprint is mainly its own disadvantage (AFAIK the legs don't count as "hull" do they?).

lanrak
25-03-2009, 19:38
Hi all.
I would like to say my gaming group are just that a group of gamers.
And proxing is a regular occurance at our club.

We have played games of WH with just plain paper ...and the game works just as well.And IF you have a good imagination using paper markers is not that much of a strech from using plastic 3 D markers.:D

Obviously any proxing should be obvious and NOT confusing for the players.

I belive that the small group of players that insist on everyone using the 'official minatures' , are usualy the ones that have spent a small fortune on minatures and expect everyone else to do the same ...(They will have a very long wait IMO.)

I lost interest in historical wagaming for this sort of an^l attitude.
Ok ,so I was using T34 -76F's not T34-85's , but they were the ONLY tanks in my batallion !!!!:wtf:

At the start of my GW gaming experiance GW activley and openly encoraged creativity.This atracted my friends and I to GW games.
Despite the best efforts of GW studio staff, there is a definate change in how GW core games are percived.IMO.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-03-2009, 20:32
Having the chaos armies split in two is no big deal for me. No-one complains about the imperial guard and Inquisition (or any theoretical Adeptus Mechanicus codex) being split from the Space Marine codexes do they? This is a progress of sorts for the "chaos faction" (as opposed to the imperial faction) , and should be furthered with the new guard codex which will allow ogryns and cavalry, penal legions etc to help represent the scrofulous hordes of the LATD. So i feel that this part of your argument isn't a fair representation of GWs stance either.


Actually, you could ally [0-1 HQ/FA/E 0-2 Troops] them.

So first choose a race - let it be IG, then you have allied Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters. Same deal with SM - they can have WH and DH allies.

So no, they are not splitted like Chaos :rolleyes:

IAMNOTHERE
25-03-2009, 20:58
I usually arm wrestle and/or have a chugging competeion to determine which scenario to play, then in order to determine the type of set-up we light matches using only a hatchet and finially to determine who won we knife fight to the death...with our left hands duct taped together...and the winner of the knife fight must eat the heart of fallen foe...while watching football...I am man ;)

Wow, Football... I hate football.

I take it you don't play the same guy twice where you're from?

Occulto
25-03-2009, 22:29
Hehe, yeah qft - I have friends playing Contemptible Little Armies and I have to shake my head when I hear them talk about something like "well, in february 1916 the color of the belts were a bit darker than in march 1916 so this doesn't fit". Well, they're all like this so let them have their fun with their historical perfectness obsession...

A guy I know who plays FoW was telling me about some tournament where the winner p***ed off a lot of the other players. Reason? His US Army force was painted up as Ultramarines. :p

Seems there was no requirement to paint up forces "realistically" and he took full advantage of it. :D

Serg. Lynchbox
26-03-2009, 01:10
I understand what you mean hellgore and I agree. I wouldn't mind playing against someone who converted some SM into squats.

i have a question for everyone: Would you be upset if someone used and older model such as the older version rhino. It's a bit smaller but its an actual GW fig. Also the older Trukk models. On my behalf wouldn't mind playing it in a fun game although it feels like I'm playing back in the day but it's NOT proxy right?

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 01:41
I'd have no problem playing against older models. Complaining about older models is a slippery slope to, "GW released a new codex, I demand you replace all the old minis with new ones." Or it's exactly that.

Blinder
26-03-2009, 01:46
I don't know that I've ever seen rules on which version of a model you have to use, just what rules are currently "official." Personally I thought they were inviting arguments when they made the rhinos so much bigger based on just this issue (person who already HAD an army, thank you very much). Really the only time you should run up against an issue w/ using the older ones is a tournament setting because someone could say you can get cover more easily but even then "it's a straight-up GW model" should settle it.

BlackJet
26-03-2009, 01:48
Not only is proxying cool with me and my friends (I've used two cans for wraith lords) but to use a model to count as another model is perfectly fine with me as long as there isn't some obvious advantage to fielding the "count as" version.

If you put down on the field a gretchen and tell me its a killakan I'm going to say no only because you now have a killakan that you can hide behind a bush to block LOS. Now if you had a wraithlord and said it was a dreadnaught I wouldn't care since they are the same size, heck they are even in a similar fashion being giant robots. The old Wraithlords were called Eldar Dreadnaughts, so sure why not?

If you go that extra step though, and you model and paint the figure to be really convincing of what its supposed to count as then there would be near no doubt in my mind if you could play with that. Again the only thing barring this would be a drastic size difference that would give you an advantage in the game.

Trench_Raider
26-03-2009, 01:50
i have a question for everyone: Would you be upset if someone used and older model such as the older version rhino. It's a bit smaller but its an actual GW fig. Also the older Trukk models.

I use nothing BUT the older rhinos in my various MEQ armies and no one has complained yet. But I'm holding my breath when it comes to my Eldar that I just started on last night. I have a first model Avatar that I plan on putting on a larger base. That thing is barely taller than a current infantry model, but it's still 100% legal to use as an Avatar. No doubt some munchkin is going to give me some grief about it somewere down the road.


"GW released a new codex, I demand you replace all the old minis with new ones."

Only a complete tool would say that. Happily I've only come into contact with two people on these forums who subcribed to that sick view. One of those was a clueless kiddie and the other I strongly suspect was a parody troll. But of course GW would love to make that a tourny/in-store game rule and in fact tried it once before. (right after the change over to 3rd edition, a "current models only" rule existed for such cases. But it only lasted about six months before the outcry it created caused it to be withdrawn.)

TR

zoggin-eck
26-03-2009, 12:06
All these years I've never gotten the impression of Games Workshop demanding you use the "correct" or current miniature. It's only since the internet that I've heard people saying nonsense like this, and the odd GW store guy (As others have said, it's a business and the people in the store want to sell their stuff so fair enough).

What gives people this idea? Is it the showcase armies in white dwarf, from the time they went to writing about games workshop games only, to the present, with scratch built tanks, stand in Fantasy monsters etc.?

The closest excuse I've heard is that they only want current, "correct" models because thy shut down the archive service. Come on people, when do you draw the line? I don't go to a car manufacturer and demand that they make a brand new version of my 1988 Toyota, because I really don't want a new model car. I don't scream at the TV for not showing the programs that I used to watch as a kid!

How many times have we seen champion/other command figures used as character models in Fantasy armies in White Dwarf? Or non undead army figures painted as undead?

Heck, in a recent article Jervis Johnson mentioned his own "grey Marine" army, that has been used as both codex and non codex armies over the years. Look at the people who actually matter from GW, Jervis, Rick etc., not the store manager who quite fairly wants to sell stuff, of the tournament runner who doesn't want any confusion.

I think it's easy to get annoyed and vividly remember they odd git who really does need to get over an obsession with armies looking just on the box/codex, while ignoring the vast majority who are quite fine with it

Wiseman
26-03-2009, 13:00
I've got no problems with Proxy's the most important part is the game, and it even says in the rule book that the rules are a framework, and if you both agree, then you're free to change things as you wish. If something is done for the right reasons, then I don't mind what is done normally, you think the Land Raider Crusader is a cool model, you also think your Khorne Berserkers are cool models, but you're disapointed go right ahead and use them both, if thats they're reasoning and they can demonstrate it by prettying up the Crusader, thats fine. If they do it purely for the beard, thats when I won't be so understanding. At the end of the day its a game of toy soldiers designed for both party's to enjoy, if somethings going to make you both enjoy it more go right ahead. Dark Angels actually able to take a Mortis Dread like they're fluff says, fine with me, You've got a kick **** converted Leman Russ for your Space Wolves, looks good to me.

The Clairvoyant
26-03-2009, 13:26
concerning different age models, i have a snakebite nob on super-cyboar who i use as a regular nob leading my snakebites. Its modelled on a larger round base than is technically necessary for a foot trooper but is done that way cos it looks silly on a 25mm round base. And the cyboar counts as a bosspole (reroll the Ld test and the cyboar eats an ork :D). Nobody has ever complained about my use of that model. In fact, most people love to see a classic model being used.
Also in order to use an army larger than what i have in current-era figures, i've also been known to use the old space ork raiders as boyz with shootas (smaller than the newer boyz) and random old heavy weapons boyz as lootas (again, much smaller than a new loota with their huge guns).
And recently i dug out my dreadnoughts (2 RT-era ones - one with short legs, one with long legs) and fully intend to use them as current incarnations. At least the weapons are *close* to wysiwyg. I have one dread with a heavy plasma gun and a heavy flamer which counts as kustom mega blasta and a skorcha and one with two autocannons which count as big shootas.
The models probably are smaller than the current model, but i don't foresee anyone giving me problems with using them

Thylacine
26-03-2009, 13:38
I had a redshirt do a dummy spit because the weapons on my OOP RT dreadnoughts were on the wrong arms!

OBTW he lost the game walked off in a huff and said he thought he won on Victory points, but with what I took off the table, I don't think so.

borithan
26-03-2009, 18:52
However, I'd object to a bunch of plastic army men, or a shoebox as a land raider. Once you've gone that far, why even be bothered to buy the minis at all? You could just get scraps of paper with names on them lol.If they are nicely painted and done up they are not anywhere near the same as cardboard box landraiders. True, the cheap ones you get in corner shops are totally out of scale, but if you found ones reasonably in scale I would have no problem them being used.

On the use of the Soul Grinder: I would have no problem, though I would want them to explain what was what first (what weapons it carried, for exampple) and it would be better if the number of weapons matched the weapons it was going to carry. So, I have no problem the mouthgun being a battlecannon, and I think it can have some sort of second ranged weapon, so if it was to have that to represent the autocannons that would be better too).



So you're saying this lorry you stole from Flames of War made bigger with greenstuff is a chimera?That would need a lot of green stuff... A 15mm lorry?



At a recent Warhammer tourney, I told my opponent that he'd forgotten to roll for Stupidity on his Troll, the model from the box set that is holding a stone up in the air. He said it wasn't a Troll, it was a stone thrower. He'd even modeled little gobbos on the large base behind the Troll, handing him stones.While I am fine with him doing that, he should have told you what it was before hand.



Hehe, yeah qft - I have friends playing Contemptible Little Armies and I have to shake my head when I hear them talk about something like "well, in february 1916 the color of the belts were a bit darker than in march 1916 so this doesn't fit". Well, they're all like this so let them have their fun with their historical perfectness obsession...Not all historical players are like that... I generally just go "Is it vaguely the right colour? Yeah, that'll do me then."



What exactly is "manly" (in the classic sense) about pushing around chits and or chit substitutes? If anything, I'd say that leans toward the classic "intellectual" stereotype - not the "manly" one.What's unmanly about being intellectual? Stop bowing to daft outdated stereotypes that do no one any favours!

Sorry... I just really object to the idea of anything being "manly" or "womanly" or whatever the equivalent is. Also, my response was mainly a joke.

Templar Ben
26-03-2009, 22:57
To those that say this is not how GW operates there is a new thread where the individual that built an air assault force out of Chimeras and Sentinals was told that he could not use the Chimeras in store as Valks. Just food for thought.

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 23:05
To those that say this is not how GW operates there is a new thread where the individual that built an air assault force out of Chimeras and Sentinals was told that he could not use the Chimeras in store as Valks. Just food for thought.

Was that in a GW store? It looked like in the OP he'd only said it was his FLGS, which might be a local store that does not have any GW affiliation besides selling their stuff.

Templar Ben
26-03-2009, 23:23
True friendly and GW don't go together. Perhaps he will clarify.

Mouldsta
26-03-2009, 23:36
GW (head office) don't set their store rules, it's the individual store managers that do.

For this reason, some stores have a no eating policy, some stores you can't be left if you're under a certain age, some stores (usually those will low table numbers) mean you can't play non-core games during standard opening hours etc.

Not being able to use your converted models would either be from the manager having (somewhat bizarre) rules, or a full timer with a strange power complex.

I've met full timers before (that soon got fired) who would come up with all kinds of crazy stuff - you can't use tyranids/you're banned for winning too much/you're not allowed to enter painting competitions because you're too good etc.

If it's the full timer, speak to the manager. If it's the manager (and there are some awful ones out there) then speak to someone at head office - I'm sure they'll be very interested to know that one of there stores won't let customers use GW models...