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desert_rat21
25-03-2009, 00:44
im new to warhammer and i have a new small lizardmen army, and am leaning towards going steg heavy. since i do not wish to be cheesy or look like a power gamer and i would like my opponents to have fun playing me, i thought id ask you veterans how many stegs does it take to get cheese (at about 2k) and is a steg heavy list fun to play against. also, since my roommate is a wood elf player, and i would like to play nice, i want to know if he could deal with it without the need to go uber specialized (could a balanced, fun WE list handle it reasonably well)

dwarfhold13
25-03-2009, 00:51
i've wondered this myself.. but an all steggie army seems like it would get beaten up pretty bad just because you would be drastically outnumbered... its hard to say by numbers how it would work.. think certain WE lists, because of skirmishers, will run the all steggie army off the table..
for the new lizards... there is a lot you can do with the book.. but my fav list is one that takes a lord on carnosaur, and two lev 2 priests with 2 scrolls and the diadem.. because the carnie isn't a large target, you can hide it behind skinks.. also in the list, is three units of spear saurus 20 strong.. hard to get rid of and hit very very hard!
have fun with it and let me know how the list works if you do run it!
Jon

Hvidponi
25-03-2009, 01:06
1 engine of the gods, and maybe 2 more... Thats about it...

Bac5665
25-03-2009, 01:08
0. Stegs are sub-optimal. Now, Stegs with characters on them is a different question, and I'd say they are only cheesy when you have multiple EoTGs. Otherwise, they're really not that hard to deal with.

Kerill
25-03-2009, 01:43
Stegadons are very hard to deal with, if you don't want to be cheesey I would say no more than 2 stegadons (and only one EOTG). More than this and your opponent will need to take a tailored list to handle them, which to me is cheese.

It also depends on your opponents army, some opponents will have the tools to take stegadons down, others will really suffer.

Stubborn on Ld6 with reroll is a pass over 80% of the time. There is only one units in the game that can take down a stegadon on the charge- blood knights. Even Khorne Chaos knights or bloodcrushers can't manage it. This means you can tarpit with one steg, then countercharge with a second and get a burning alignment off in between. Stegadons are good, in large numbers its cheese.

Buckero0
25-03-2009, 02:19
you only get a re-roll if you take a bsb. I see no problem with 2 Engines or having 3 character-ridden stegs. 4 is a bit much. Stegs are not that hard to kill, and the guys on top are even easier to kill. Without the charge, stegs lose every combat 78% of the time (anyone can throw out random percentages)

Nicha11
25-03-2009, 02:19
3 is fine, anything more is cheesy IMO

Hvidponi
25-03-2009, 02:26
stegs lose every combat 78% of the time (anyone can throw out random percentages)

But his is close to right... 89,8% to be more exact...

Yours is just silly...

Don't bash mathhammer is a wonderful way of wasting time...

soots
25-03-2009, 02:27
2 or more.

Stubborn T6. Terror Chariot with attached boltthrower. Should have been 300+ points each.

And Dont get me started on the auto-irresistable force EoTG comet of Cassandra. Thats so cheesy you could put the lizardmen book on a peice of bread and call it a pizza.

Grovel
25-03-2009, 02:27
I'd say 3 as an absolute max, and only a single engine in that.

Nicha11
25-03-2009, 02:29
Thats so cheesy you could put the lizardmen book on a peice of bread and call it a pizza.


Thats so bitter i had to add sugar to my coke.:D

Kerill
25-03-2009, 02:38
you only get a re-roll if you take a bsb. I see no problem with 2 Engines or having 3 character-ridden stegs. 4 is a bit much. Stegs are not that hard to kill, and the guys on top are even easier to kill. Without the charge, stegs lose every combat 78% of the time (anyone can throw out random percentages)

Mine is correct, yours is random nonsense. As I said, the fact that stegadons can hold and then countercharge with a second stegadon means that almost anything fast enough to outcharge a stegadon will be destroyed by the counter charging stegadon and burning alignment.

As for only if you take a bsb, why would you ever not take a bsb when you have cold blooded (and cold blooded stubborn) troops?

You are a lizardmen player perchance?

@soots, I think you are going the other way and overstating their power. Stegadons are fairly priced IMO, character mounted ones are underpriced somewhat, but not in hydra-like crazy underpricing territory.

Still more than 2 is cheese IMO and two EOTG with a slann is definitely cheese.

Misfratz
25-03-2009, 02:48
Well... it's always a bad idea if you reach the stage of minimum core. That isn't just about the Stegadons that you have, though.

In 4th and 5th editions there used to be a points limit of 25% on Monsters. This would seem to me to be a limit that would leave you very safe if you were under it. Basically one Stegadon [or Carnosaur] per 1000 points.

I think you'd still be okay if you threw in an extra Stegadon, or even two, [at 2000 points] if you also skimped very hard on Characters and other Special and Rare choices. I think playing against a list that was monsters and characters would be dull - unless I had been warned beforehand and we were playing an appropriate scenario.

dodicula
25-03-2009, 03:51
Hard question of the armies I play regularly:

1) Against my Orcs more than one would be really tough
2) Against my High elves 3 would be grudgingly Accepted
3) Against my Bretonnians 3 is fine, probably 4

Lord Dan
25-03-2009, 04:00
Don't bash mathhammer is a wonderful way of wasting time...

So is painting.

Dokushin
25-03-2009, 04:08
It's a tough question. Bear with me while I analyze, lol.

The Lizardmen army list is now, I think, designed to have a little Stegadon support. All of our cavalry answers (stubborn, bolt thrower, burning alignment) are on one type of stegadon or another. We've got (to my knowledge) the only straight-up monster in Special in the game, and that seems like an open invitation to include stegadons to your heart's content, as it's just how we roll.

As pointed out, however, a character on top makes them significantly better. Going to BS5 on the howdah weapons, the lance that turns a break into a wipeout, the engine... these take a monster that's really good at a few things and ok at a few things and turn it into something that's more or less good at everything -- adding a nuke or stubborn cold-blooded 7 and magic eq options, as well as freeing up that slot.

In addition, Stegadons combo extremely well. One Stegadon (sans lance) cannot charge a unit in the front with confidence, can fluff impacts on the side, and will only outnumber small units. Two stegadons, however, can flank charge just about anything, win combat by a crapton, and autobreak anything under US20. If one is carrying the lance they can charge in the front with impunity.

One Stegadon can be caught by flyers or cavalry and, although it will hold, be stuck for a wile, dealing only 3 or 4 meaningful attacks. Two stegadons, however, change that drastically, as the one charged isn't going to evaporate the first turn, and the other can countercharge -- and as pointed out, anything getting the charge on a stegadon is going to get blasted by a charge from another stegadon.

What I've been doing is running one chief with lance and ancient, and one priest on an engine, and it is 100% brutal. That may already be cheese territory. A combo charge means 3d6+2 S6 impact hits, 9 S6 and 9 S3 attacks, and US20 to break what's left standing after a burning alignment whittles it down. Anything that gets a charge on either will get destroyed -- even the 'weaker' 1d6+1 impacts + a burning alignment will take care of any unit that manages to get the charge on a free-turning monster. BS5 4d6 blowpipes and burning alignment kill anything resilient to impact hits, and even the 'weak' skink priest has a 2+ armor save. The engine gives them a 5+ ward against shooting while they approach, and in the meantime the chief has his blowpipes and the priest can cast what spells he knows. It's ridiculous, I've had those two models wreak havoc. It's all about letting them cover each other.

So I don't know, lol. If you just take vanilla special-slot stegs, even just the rare variety, four would probably be reasonable. But if you took two chiefs on ancient and two priests on engine, it'd be nonsense.

So my advice is, if you want to run stegs, run a lot of cheap stegs and see how that goes. Even just having that many to cover for each other might put it over the top, but those great bows will only hit on 6s and fast skirmishers will keep you hopping. It'll be a fun game of maneuvering and position. If you want the upgraded model, run two, and look appropriately contrite when you deal 12 wounds on the charge to T4 3+ save and autobreak with US20. Honestly, I'm glad I can't afford ($$) more than two; the temptation would call to me too strongly, I fear.

Kerill
25-03-2009, 04:45
Good post dokushin, but there is nothing to allow you to use BS5 for the howdah weapons at present. A good thing IMO since otherwise you would never see a stegadon without a chief (apart from an engine of course).

scarletsquig
25-03-2009, 04:55
Multi-stegadon lists will get slaughtered really quickly by some armies... specifically Empire and Dwarfs.

2 Cannons, 2 Helblasters, and dino burgers for supper. ;)

soots
25-03-2009, 05:47
Dokushin, in regards to characters using the boltthrower, characters displace crew, they dont replace them.

I had a discussion with a friend, and if we wanted to be pedantic, it actually says it "takes 2 crew" to fire the weapon. So I brought up the point that the crew doesnt even fire the boltthrower, it just steadies it for the stegadon to shoot with his BS 0 :)

But everything you brought up is correct, 2 stegs is instant win. Not to mention you can totally stuff up, misjudge charge range, get charged in the rear by a 100+ combat res death star unit and you can still hold them up for the game. The biggest problem with stegs are theyre 235pts and they have 0 weaknesses whatsoever and only strengths. This plus the fact you can have 7 of them is atrocious. If they cant break a unit, then that said unit, which would be mighty powerful, is locked out of the game anyways. theyre severely underpriced.

Steg
- Boltthrower - 50pts.
- T6 stubborn - bout ~200pts.
- S6 chariot scythed - looking at 100pts here.
- 5 equiped crew with 4+ saves and fully equipped- 40pts.
- extra cost for having all abilities in one model.

The stegs should have been 300pts and rare only.

soots
25-03-2009, 05:52
Multi-stegadon lists will get slaughtered really quickly by some armies... specifically Empire and Dwarfs.

2 Cannons, 2 Helblasters, and dino burgers for supper. ;)

Helblasters wont do much. 5s to wound.

2 Cannons on percentages, wont even kill one steg considering the measure, artillery, wound, and the D6 wounds multiplier.

And an anti-steg empire army with 4 cannons (max) at 2k will not be able to kill 7 stegs in a game.

I dont think there is an army out there that can take on T6, 35 wounds even if they tried.

scarletsquig
25-03-2009, 06:19
Helblasters wont do much. 5s to wound.

Still a reliable 3 or so wounds on the thing, 4 at short range. The +1 to hit for large target helps, 2 of them shooting at a steggy will take it down pretty often.


2 Cannons on percentages, wont even kill one steg considering the measure, artillery, wound, and the D6 wounds multiplier.

Depends on your measuring ability... stegadon is a huge model that can be hit fairly reliably... I'd say a brace of cannons can take out, or at least severly wound a steggy a turn.

Injured stegadons (1-2 wounds) are easy targets for knights, wizards or pistoliers to mop up. Engine of the gods forcefield doesn't help too much either, since it becomes the priority steggy to kill, and then you're stuck with no magic defense against the inevitably-picked lore of beasts.

I'd happily give a 7-steg list a fight with my regular balanced empire army, it'd make for a fun game... I'm sure it would with a lot of other armies too.

It's a very well-balanced unit IMO, nowhere near as messed up as multiple hydras or steam tanks.

Kerill
25-03-2009, 07:48
Dokushin, in regards to characters using the boltthrower, characters displace crew, they dont replace them.


But everything you brought up is correct, 2 stegs is instant win. Not to mention you can totally stuff up, misjudge charge range, get charged in the rear by a 100+ combat res death star unit and you can still hold them up for the game. The biggest problem with stegs are theyre 235pts and they have 0 weaknesses whatsoever and only strengths. This plus the fact you can have 7 of them is atrocious. If they cant break a unit, then that said unit, which would be mighty powerful, is locked out of the game anyways. theyre severely underpriced.

Steg
- Boltthrower - 50pts.
- T6 stubborn - bout ~200pts.
- S6 chariot scythed - looking at 100pts here.
- 5 equiped crew with 4+ saves and fully equipped- 40pts.
- extra cost for having all abilities in one model.

The stegs should have been 300pts and rare only.

7 is indeed atrocious but the rest of your rant is way off.
First off the stegadon abilities you describe (S6 chariot) already is 275 points, so you think they are only undercosted by 25 points?

Then 50 points for a S5 bolt thrower with reduced range, that you generally will be shooting at BS2 due to moving or BS1 due to moving and reduced short range? I think not.
40 points for the crew? Ws2, T2? with an armour save only slightly better than an empire swordsman?

Having all the abilities in one model is a disadvantage as much as an advantage.

Stegadons are very good, but only get cheesey in large numbers.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
25-03-2009, 07:59
SNIP

But everything you brought up is correct, 2 stegs is instant win. Not to mention you can totally stuff up, misjudge charge range, get charged in the rear by a 100+ combat res death star unit and you can still hold them up for the game. The biggest problem with stegs are theyre 235pts and they have 0 weaknesses whatsoever and only strengths. This plus the fact you can have 7 of them is atrocious. If they cant break a unit, then that said unit, which would be mighty powerful, is locked out of the game anyways. theyre severely underpriced.

SNIP

The counter argument though is that they themselves can be tied up by cheap units. Only US 10, means that it will take a long time until they outnumber most infantry units and when not charging, their combat skills are not impressive. Goblins, gnoblars, slaves, free company, even peasants can stand up to steg charge [some only if the general is near, but all pretty easily if the general and BSB are around] and the chances of the steg ever winning by much against the static combat res are pretty low. So, even with Free Company [the most expensive of these choices, a 175 point unit can tie up the 235 point steg for the rest of the game. Of course, cheap troops are not available for all armies and some may have to be more creative, but personally, I like seeing roles for cheap troops in the game.

slingersam
25-03-2009, 08:41
It was only yesterday when everyone was saying that the
Stegadon was still overpriced in the new Army Book, now they
are 100 points to cheap? I'm not getting this, The Stegadon is
like a large target chariot, how do you handle chariots in
WFB (other than str 7)? it has weaknesses people just haven't
discovered it. One that I can think of is that it's not very
maneuverable, and only US 10, units always come in bigger
numbers.

soots
25-03-2009, 09:46
The counter argument though is that they themselves can be tied up by cheap units. Only US 10, means that it will take a long time until they outnumber most infantry units and when not charging, their combat skills are not impressive. Goblins, gnoblars, slaves, free company, even peasants can stand up to steg charge [some only if the general is near, but all pretty easily if the general and BSB are around] and the chances of the steg ever winning by much against the static combat res are pretty low. So, even with Free Company [the most expensive of these choices, a 175 point unit can tie up the 235 point steg for the rest of the game. Of course, cheap troops are not available for all armies and some may have to be more creative, but personally, I like seeing roles for cheap troops in the game.

I hear this answer all the time... Tie them up.

If you had a battle vs a 7 stank list or a 7 treemen list would you deploy 7 cheap units to tie them up and aim for an exciting draw?

Tying them up is what you do with any armies "nasties". (e.g treemen, stanks, etc)

HOWEVER, for some stupid reason Lizardmen have these nasties in the special slot, in the rare slot, and in the character slot. Hence it isnt the armies "nasties", its the nasty army. Like ive said before, stegs should have been rare only and more expensive, but unfortunately theyre apparently more common than most units in the game.

Nicha11
25-03-2009, 10:07
HOWEVER, for some stupid reason Lizardmen have these nasties in the special slot, in the rare slot, and in the character slot. Hence it isnt the armies "nasties", its the nasty army. Like ive said before, stegs should have been rare only and more expensive, but unfortunately theyre apparently more common than most units in the game.


Can you explain your point in more detail? So we should have rare 300pt Steggies?

Vs what, 175pt Hydras?

Mireadur
25-03-2009, 10:50
It was only yesterday when everyone was saying that the
Stegadon was still overpriced in the new Army Book, now they
are 100 points to cheap? I'm not getting this, The Stegadon is
like a large target chariot, how do you handle chariots in
WFB (other than str 7)? it has weaknesses people just haven't
discovered it. One that I can think of is that it's not very
maneuverable, and only US 10, units always come in bigger
numbers.

Heheh, actually its not a chariot, where did you get from its not maneuvrable? it can march 12'' and doesnt lose movement for pivoting. Also, US10 is actually brutal, theres no monster in WH with such US, trust me after 2 rounds of combat those US20 units will be reduced close to steg's US, and most likely fearing it.

Dead Man Walking
25-03-2009, 13:12
I have had a eotg beaten in combat by 3 spider riders with a musician and caught and run down, destroyed. So I dont want to hear anything about them being too cheesey. If you cant beat them its probably the player and not the army.

I have been trying out the all steggie army and they go down pretty quick. In fact the terradons won the game for me more than the stegadons because they took out the artillery that was killing off the steggies. My eotg's are usually gone by turn 3 or 4.

Now I did absolutely destroy grimgor ironhide and a black orc unit but that was because I out-thought my opponent and set him up so I could charge with 2 stegadons and not have to get into base to base with grimgor. It wasnt the stats that won because my impacts rolled 1's and in the end it was the flank hit that destroyed my opponent. I've even lost the priest before in the first round before the eoth could put up a 5+ ward.

swarmofseals
25-03-2009, 13:31
If I recall correctly, the OP was concerned about Lizards vs Woodelves, which few people have mentioned in this thread.

I don't have a lot of play experience, but I have been reading an awful lot about wood elves recently and my understanding is that stegadons, especially EOTG, are very difficult for wood elves to handle. If you want good games against your opponent without him making a tailored list, I wouldn't take more than 1 EOTG and 1 other stegadon, and even that may be pushing it unless he makes a really hard WE list.

That said, there are two things he can field which can actually fight a steggie in CC effectively, but they are rarely seen in generalized lists at the 2k point level.

EDIT: While I'm not arguing that stegadons are cheesy, I think that's a pretty ridiculous argument Dead Man Walking. Just because it's statistically possible for a unit to lose a fight like that doesn't say much of anything about how good a unit is. A unit of 6 flamers *could* be charged and wiped out over a series of turns by a single basic night goblin. That doesn't mean that they aren't ridiculously good.

W0lf
25-03-2009, 13:40
I dont think stegadons are that great tbh.

However they do get exponentially better. Problems arise at 6+ steggies imo.

Mercules
25-03-2009, 14:02
(anyone can throw out random percentages)

Yes, but only some can actually work out the math to come up with an actual statical percentage. Then again I point out all the time that what should statistically happen doesn't matter in a game and your chance of rolling a 6 on a D6 is always 1-in-6 even if you rolled 20 6's previously.


Back on topic.

It almost depends on the army you are facing. Some armies are going to laugh at Terror or will be equipped to kill Stegodons. Empire Cannons with a couple turns to fire can make short work of them. An Orc & Goblin army is going to be throwing every Spear Chukka at them and praying.

Those armies with LD issues are not going to like the terror at all, especially if they don't have a good way of killing the Stegadons. My Ogre army is a good example of this. Too wide to keep everyone near the general for LD, low leadership and while Fear will water the Terror down I still have to get the charge or I will probably loose the combat and then I often Auto-Break from Fear.

My Warmachines are a Chariot with a large S3 template or an expensive Character with a pseudo Bolt Thrower. Leadbelchers might work, but they fire once and then need to reload(and rarely ever get that chance).

Basically I am done to go after them with a Character, most likely my Tyrant so seeing even three will make me groan, seeing 4 will just make me stubborn enough to try taking them all out even if it costs me my entire army. ;)

Chaos Undecided
25-03-2009, 14:02
A title like that and not one joke about milking dinosaurs....

I'd expect an average of 3 Stegadons in a balanced all comers Lizardmen force. More than that could prove troublesome for some army lists but then again others could probably have a field day and take them apart with ease.

Quite often "cheese" is subjective to your opponents own list and ability, I dont think Steg heavy is an auto I win list.

O&G'sRule
25-03-2009, 14:14
Only one engine , but I wouldn't mind how many after that. TBH it might be a bit of a novelty to play an army of stegs. It only annoys if someone deliberately puts together a cheese list so no one can beat him and then acts like theyre the best and get all cocky, but if your just trying to be different or themed I don't have a problem

Dokushin
25-03-2009, 14:15
(sigh) I'm sorry for being terse about this, but it's turning into something of a common discussion.

I've got three e-mails from three separate people with official GW letterhead, all from the official contact at GW concerning rules questions. All three of them, among other things, ask if the Chief can use his BS to fire Howdah weapons, and all three of them answer that by saying that you can.

It's debatable in the book. It's not debatable in the followup from GW. I'm open to anything from Games Workshop to the contrary, but please don't make me type this again based on personal opinion in the book. Just so we're on the same page. *grin*

Back on topic, the howdah weapons are a bonus. Stegadons can cover for each other in ways Chariots cannot, cause terror, and are US10. A chariot is almost useless vs. stubborn. Stegadons are not. Plus, how many T6 5 wound chariots do you know? In special slots? How about ones that you can put a mage in to give a 2+ armor save, get an extra power and dispel die, and get a free undispellable S4 drain life per turn?

As far as dealing with them, my advice is the same as everyone elses. Tie them up. Killy cavalry might be able to kill them on the charge, but it will be tough. Breaking them is a great way to get rid of them, but even without a BSB they pass about 70% of tests, and that's assuming you win combat. Them holding for a single turn means countercharge. In the last book, Stegs were Ld 5 stubborn, and breaking them was a much more viable strategy. Just shoot at them with a lot of stuff and charge them with a lot of stuff, basically, and if you've got ItP troops, get them in the way.

soots
25-03-2009, 15:20
Dokushin, i checked up the Liz book to see who fires the bow, and it doesnt even say the crew do.

But lets say they do because that is assumed, when you look at the character entry for riding stegs, it doesnt say he replaces crew, it says he displaces them. So he isnt really part of the crew, he just sits there on the steg. Note that the bow takes 2 people to fire it too. Id say even if you had 2 skink chiefs up their in the howdah they still couldnt fire the boltthrower since they must have knowledge of how to fire it.

Also, Engineers specifically state they can use the warmachines with their ballistic skill and thats what you specifically buy engineers for. I highly doubt skink heroes know as much about warmachines as an engineer.

To me, its reaching it way too far to try and even think about characters using the boltthrower.

Dokushin
25-03-2009, 16:25
Dokushin, i checked up the Liz book to see who fires the bow, and it doesnt even say the crew do.

But lets say they do because that is assumed, when you look at the character entry for riding stegs, it doesnt say he replaces crew, it says he displaces them. So he isnt really part of the crew, he just sits there on the steg. Note that the bow takes 2 people to fire it too. Id say even if you had 2 skink chiefs up their in the howdah they still couldnt fire the boltthrower since they must have knowledge of how to fire it.

Also, Engineers specifically state they can use the warmachines with their ballistic skill and thats what you specifically buy engineers for. I highly doubt skink heroes know as much about warmachines as an engineer.

To me, its reaching it way too far to try and even think about characters using the boltthrower.

It's not a question -- GW has said specifically that the Skink Chief can fire the howdah weapons with his BS -- but let me address your concern:

The Howdah Weapons are not war machines, and therefore are not subject to the rules that warmachines have preventing characters from using them. They are mundane ranged weapons available as part of the Stegadon.

The training argument is disingeneous. Does every Chief know how to fire a great bow? Well, does every Scar-Vet know how to ride a Cold One? Does every Oldblood ride a Carnosaur? No, of course not, but if you take a Skink Chief on a Stegadon it can be assumed he's from the smaller pool of skinks that may have some experience with Stegadons. It's not like he saw one right before the battle, thought, "hey, cool," and jumped on. Is it unreasonable to think that a Skink Chief with experience and training riding an armed Stegadon into battle would know little to nothing of its primary weapon?

Re: the crew argument, the line from Howdah weapons is: "It takes two crew to fire a giant bow, or one for each giant blowpipe (so two Skinks can't throw javelins if the weapons are being fired)." (emphasis mine) I think the arguments based on grammar and subtle wording are a little silly, but that statement establishes that "crew" and "Skinks" are the same thing, and a Skink Chief is certainly a "Skink".

N810
25-03-2009, 16:32
Re: the crew argument, the line from Howdah weapons is: "It takes two crew to fire a giant bow, or one for each giant blowpipe (so two Skinks can't throw javelins if the weapons are being fired)." (emphasis mine) I think the arguments based on grammar and subtle wording are a little silly, but that statement establishes that "crew" and "Skinks" are the same thing, and a Skink Chief is certainly a "Skink".

Correct me if i'm wrong,
but didn't I read somewhere that it only takes one skink now (for the giant bow)?
(just look at the models)

jax40kplyr1
25-03-2009, 16:40
I think the hard part (and endless discussion) that has gone on about the skink chief firing the howdah weapon is that usually there would be something in the description that says something like "the weapon requires two skink crew to fire [U]or[U] may be fired by 1 crew member and 1 character. Either way - will require a FAQ from GW as both sides do have merit to their argument.
As far as how many steggies - I run 2 EOTG and a Slann. So far, they have pretty much dominated everything they go against (VC, HE, Empire, DC) - unless you roll pretty crappy, the EOTG just whittle everything down. Allowing them to burn into CC is what really makes them over the top. Counterpoints though to lots of steggy lists:
EOTG - challenge or kill the skink priest. Yes he has a 2+, but can still be killed. Then it's just a regular ancient.
Regular stegs - same as chariots - don't let them get the charge. Target the crew, get some easy combat res - eventually the thing will break and run. Or go the easier route and hit the thing with missile, magic and warmachines (although nothing is funnier than watching a dead on cannonball randomize and kill 1 skink crew).

Dokushin
25-03-2009, 16:54
(although nothing is funnier than watching a dead on cannonball randomize and kill 1 skink crew).

This is part of what's making them so good, I think; the Stegadon has in effect a 5+ ward save vs. shooting before armor or other ward saves, and the character up top is harder to hit than any other mounted character, with a 2+ armor save. Stuff that ignores armor is better off hitting the character anyway as it could seriously hurt the stegadon... the randomization just really helps out. Although I wish it didn't specifically randomize impact hits, too...


@N810: It still takes two per the book. I agree that doesn't really track with the plastic, though :D

Tokamak
25-03-2009, 16:56
And the answer: None.

The less stegadons in your army, the less cheesy it probably is.

slingersam
25-03-2009, 17:06
Heheh, actually its not a chariot, where did you get from its not maneuvrable? it can march 12'' and doesnt lose movement for pivoting. Also, US10 is actually brutal, theres no monster in WH with such US, trust me after 2 rounds of combat those US20 units will be reduced close to steg's US, and most likely fearing it.

I said it's like a chariot, anyway I'm fairly new to this game, so I just thought
that stegadons are slowed down by pivoting, And US 10 wasn't a big deal.

Dokushin
25-03-2009, 17:13
US10 is a pretty big deal on a Terror-causer with impact hits. It's a huge deal on something that you can take as a special choice -- 2d6+2 S5 impact on a 12" charge with US20 terror waiting if you lose combat (which you will) = rolling for double ones, every time.

They're just handy. But the fact that they're a special choice now says to me that GW wants to see more monsters in LM lists. One -- especially one vanilla -- isn't really too huge of a threat, and is just a good, solid hammer unit. The tipping point is somewhere above that; I'd hate to write them off as cheesy just because they're useful.

Really, people just need more experience facing them, I think. Remember how Swordmasters seemed like the end of the world? It's kinda like that.

desert_rat21
25-03-2009, 17:29
alright, due to the overwhelming evidence of the cheesiness of steg abuse, i will have a max of 3, only one EoTG and probably only use 2 stegs total in 2k

Dead Man Walking
25-03-2009, 18:13
Emails dont count, only FAQ's count. Spirit tested this by emailing the question about the hero firing the Howda and Spirit was told no. Its common for different people at GW to answer the same question differently in email so emails are in no way shape or form official.

Dokushin
25-03-2009, 18:37
I remember that comment and was under the impression it was hypothetical, esp. since if I remember correctly he said he got the response in "a few hours", which we both know is unlikely :p I'll be happy to provide a .pdf of my personal e-mail and response, although I don't feel at liberty to reproduce correspondence of others.

In any case, I've never seen a response that answered negative, and I've seen several that answered positive. Why exactly are you suggesting I ignore official correspondence from Games Workshop -- from the e-mail address posted on their own web page for dealing with rules questions, answered from a person whose job is identified as exclusively answering rules questions, in an e-mail response including official Games Workshop letterhead, from an e-mail address registered to Games Workshop -- and what are you suggesting I ignore it in favor of?

I'm just not seeing the evidence for cheating in my opponents favor, besides random talk of "well, we don't like that guy, so we're going to invent our own version of Warhammer."

imweasel
25-03-2009, 19:55
(sigh) I'm sorry for being terse about this, but it's turning into something of a common discussion.

I've got three e-mails from three separate people with official GW letterhead, all from the official contact at GW concerning rules questions. All three of them, among other things, ask if the Chief can use his BS to fire Howdah weapons, and all three of them answer that by saying that you can.

It's debatable in the book. It's not debatable in the followup from GW. I'm open to anything from Games Workshop to the contrary, but please don't make me type this again based on personal opinion in the book. Just so we're on the same page. *grin*

Really? Well I have 38 emails from 17 separate people on official GW letterhead that completely contradicts what you recieved.

That's not debatable in the followup from GW and I'm still open as well, but let's don't go over this again.

Emails from 'GW' don't mean a thing. I am glad it's ok with you, but you are quite right.

Let's leave personal opinions out of this and let's go by what it states in the rules.

Until something is published (errata or faq - even though the faq's can be considered house rules), it's all opinion. Don't try to make opinion factual.

Dungeon_Lawyer
25-03-2009, 20:44
Good post dokushin, but there is nothing to allow you to use BS5 for the howdah weapons at present. A good thing IMO since otherwise you would never see a stegadon without a chief (apart from an engine of course).


Nothing at present that disallows it either! :evilgrin: But this debate will go on ad infinitim till the FAQ, which I am confident will take the common sense approach and bequeth the bs 5 of the chief to be used to fire the weapons. Its the chiefs mount for crying out loud! The crew can hold the reigns, im firing the weapons if I am the chief and its my mount.

I havent seen many sans chief steg ssince the new book came out anyway-with good reason.

2 stegs at 2000 IMO anything over that gets a bit gouda

Dokushin
25-03-2009, 21:19
Really? Well I have 38 emails from 17 separate people on official GW letterhead that completely contradicts what you recieved.

That's not debatable in the followup from GW and I'm still open as well, but let's don't go over this again.

Emails from 'GW' don't mean a thing. I am glad it's ok with you, but you are quite right.

Let's leave personal opinions out of this and let's go by what it states in the rules.

Until something is published (errata or faq - even though the faq's can be considered house rules), it's all opinion. Don't try to make opinion factual.

I mean, I'm with you, it IS opinion because the rules are unclear, but it seems odd to me that people expect me to have a fistful of e-mails from GW saying to use the chief's BS and go ahead and not use it. There could be, of course, any number of e-mails that contradict that. But every one I've ever seen on screen or held print of has said very clearly to use the Chief's BS for the howdah weapons. I still don't understand why I'm expected to doubt that.

Honestly, it seems to me clear as day that the Chief was intended to use his BS -- he's our shoot hero, ffs. Is it so weird to expect him to get up on a Steg and, well, shoot? But unfortunately it is ambiguous in the rules, and as long as every e-mail I have access to says to play it one way, and every e-mail every person I play with and around says to play it that way, that's the way I'm going to play it. That that way makes sense to me doesn't enter into it -- though it's a nice bonus.

The fact that you are referring to FAQs as house rules speaks volumes to me, however. I suppose for you to consider something official they'd have to reprint the book and we'd all have to drop another $20? GW doesn't have the authority to amend their own books?

imweasel
25-03-2009, 23:03
The fact that you are referring to FAQs as house rules speaks volumes to me, however. I suppose for you to consider something official they'd have to reprint the book and we'd all have to drop another $20? GW doesn't have the authority to amend their own books?

I don't refer to faq's as 'house rules', GW themselves do. The fact that you either ignore that or are ignorant of that speaks volumes to me. The only thing GW considers 'official' rules changes is errata, not the answers to the faq's. Now many people do consider that 'official' enough (myself included), but since GW does not even consider their own answers to faq's an 'official' rules change, you could at least cut me some slack when I doubt the validity of an emailed response to someone on a a message board to a question that hasn't even been released to the public.

Also, I agree that it could very well be their intention to allow the chief's bs to be used, but raw doesn't say so, so you can't. I also think that when a slann joins a unit of tg, that the unit becomes stubborn and gets to use his ls9, but raw doesn't say that either. I'm sure that's their intent, but that's just my opinion. Even if it's backed by an 'email', I play it as it's written.

imweasel
25-03-2009, 23:05
Nothing at present that disallows it either!

Nothing written doesn't 'disallow' me from declaring myself the winner of the game if at anytime during the game I roll a six.

Now, of course that is ridiculous, but the point is that warhammer is a permissive rules set and even that can be taken to extremes.

However, pretty much it has to be written to be allowed. I prefer if it's not written that way, don't try to interpret it that way.

Conotor
25-03-2009, 23:18
Take as many as u want... they are easy to counter.

MalusCalibur
25-03-2009, 23:24
I'm afraid I'm totally with ImWeasel on this one. Nothing is official until the FAQ, and even then GW don't consider those 'hard and fast' rules, so any number of responses with 'GW letterhead' are meaningless.
As it is written, Skink Chiefs cannot fire the howdah weapon, and in my own interpretation that is how it should stay for the simple reason that the bow is stated to require 2 crew members to fire it: the mention of Skinks here is an interchangeable term when referring to the Stegadon as it stands, and doesn't cover the instance of characters riding them.
I could well turn out to be wrong in GW's intentions regarding the issue, but until we get an FAQ or errata, it needs to be played as written: unless your group have no problem with you doing so, in which case fair enough.

@Dungeon_Lawyer: It is very patronising to say that you are the one using common sense, where you have stated nothing more than your opinion, the same as the rest of us. I believe that it is common sense for the chief NOT to be able to fire the bow, as mentioned above, but I don't claim to be automatically right.


MalusCalibur

Dokushin
26-03-2009, 00:40
Maybe I'm coming off a bit harsh, lol, I'm not trying to come down on anyone -- it's just that I have this e-mail from GW, and these other guys have this e-mail from GW, and it agrees with the way we all think it should be played, so we play it like that.

I'm still not so sure it's cut and dried in the rulebook. (I would say I don't want to dredge through this again, but I've been rude enough without trying to fire off an argument without an invitation to comment, lol.) The line about firing the howdah weapons states that two crew fire the great bow, and therefore two skinks cannot throw javelins this turn. That statement to me equates 'skinks' and 'crew', removing the special 'crew' status that would in theory prevent the chief from firing.

I really have no problems either way. I actually think the chief using his BS on howdahs is pushing stegadons even farther into 'are you serious' territory, but it was the way I read the book, and everything I can get (for what it is) from GW backs me up on this. If they want it some other way, I'm 100% for that, but they are going to have to commit to it where people can hear them, and definitely not answer questions to the exact contrary.

Go figure.

Re: FAQs vs. Errata vs. house rules, I'll give you that they grant permission to override, of course, but I and everyone I know considers tournament rules to be fairest, and those revolve rather handily around the FAQs.

slingersam
26-03-2009, 01:05
I'm with Dokushun on this one actually, What's the point of having
a BS 5 skink Chief, as the only weaon they can use is a blowpipe,
javelins, and staff of the lost sun. Ya it's kind of a waste BS 5.
So the Howda Weapons would be a great option for a Skink Chief.

Kerill
26-03-2009, 01:24
I'm with Dokushun on this one actually, What's the point of having
a BS 5 skink Chief, as the only weaon they can use is a blowpipe,
javelins, and staff of the lost sun. Ya it's kind of a waste BS 5.
So the Howda Weapons would be a great option for a Skink Chief.

The issue is not whether or not its useful, my chaos knights being able to charge 16" instead of 14" would be useful. A Chief is a good option on a stegadon regardless, even naked he greatly increases the chance of passing stubborn. As you noted, there is the staff of the lost sun, a javelin whilst on a terradon and so on. The fact it would be useful for your army is absolutely not a reason why it should be allowed.

Also when you start going down the path of "there is nothing to say I can't" rather than "it allows you to" you are well into the territory of rules lawyering. If GW say you CAN in an FAQ then all well and good, otherwise you can't.

Neknoh
26-03-2009, 01:29
Against Wood Elves?

Bring as many Stegadons as you'd like.

Don't bring an Engine of the Gods though, it really does gut their units, even when trapped inside a forrest

Lord Dan
26-03-2009, 03:09
alright, due to the overwhelming evidence of the cheesiness of steg abuse, i will have a max of 3, only one EoTG and probably only use 2 stegs total in 2k

It's interesting that if Stegs counted as a rare choice, taking two would be as cheesy as taking two steam tanks. Since they're special, however, taking two is like being "nice".

Bac5665
26-03-2009, 03:49
Steam Tanks are cheesy because they are tough and powerful.

Stegs (without characters) are not worth their points. Feel free to use up all your special choices with stegs. I'll laugh and beat you.

Now, the character choices are another matter. EoTGs are crazy, as are Skink Chiefs with War Spears. But its the character that does the damage and adds to the cheese. I would say more than 1 of any character type on a steg is cheese, but otherwise, characterless stegs are fine. Bring em on!!!

Dead Man Walking
26-03-2009, 03:50
Maybe I'm coming off a bit harsh, lol, I'm not trying to come down on anyone -- it's just that I have this e-mail from GW, and these other guys have this e-mail from GW, and it agrees with the way we all think it should be played, so we play it like that.

I'm still not so sure it's cut and dried in the rulebook. (I would say I don't want to dredge through this again, but I've been rude enough without trying to fire off an argument without an invitation to comment, lol.) The line about firing the howdah weapons states that two crew fire the great bow, and therefore two skinks cannot throw javelins this turn. That statement to me equates 'skinks' and 'crew', removing the special 'crew' status that would in theory prevent the chief from firing.

I really have no problems either way. I actually think the chief using his BS on howdahs is pushing stegadons even farther into 'are you serious' territory, but it was the way I read the book, and everything I can get (for what it is) from GW backs me up on this. If they want it some other way, I'm 100% for that, but they are going to have to commit to it where people can hear them, and definitely not answer questions to the exact contrary.

Go figure.

Re: FAQs vs. Errata vs. house rules, I'll give you that they grant permission to override, of course, but I and everyone I know considers tournament rules to be fairest, and those revolve rather handily around the FAQs.

We've already stated that GW has said yes and no to the same question in emails, but you seem to only want to acknowledge the ones that go the way you want the rule to be interpreted. What makes the Yes email more valid than the no email? Because it makes sense to -you-?

The fact that they give different answers alone invalidates the emails regardless of the source. What are you going to do in a tourney when you whip out your rules email and then your opponent whips out his own email that says the opposite? Chest pound and fling poo?

If you want to make a house rule that the chief can in your own gaming groups then go right ahead and do what you want. If its your house then do as you like, but here we use RAW and FAQs to verify rules because not everyone agrees on rule 'interpretations'.

Personally when I play and a rule is unclear I will side on the side of my opponent as it is not thier fault GW was unclear in my army rules. It is also the sportsmanly way to behave. Will I hit a lot? Nope, probably not at all, but its not worth alienating someone in -my- gaming community.
:skull:

Dokushin
26-03-2009, 04:31
We've already stated that GW has said yes and no to the same question in emails, but you seem to only want to acknowledge the ones that go the way you want the rule to be interpreted. What makes the Yes email more valid than the no email? Because it makes sense to -you-?

The fact that they give different answers alone invalidates the emails regardless of the source. What are you going to do in a tourney when you whip out your rules email and then your opponent whips out his own email that says the opposite? Chest pound and fling poo?

If you want to make a house rule that the chief can in your own gaming groups then go right ahead and do what you want. If its your house then do as you like, but here we use RAW and FAQs to verify rules because not everyone agrees on rule 'interpretations'.

Personally when I play and a rule is unclear I will side on the side of my opponent as it is not thier fault GW was unclear in my army rules. It is also the sportsmanly way to behave. Will I hit a lot? Nope, probably not at all, but its not worth alienating someone in -my- gaming community.
:skull:

Aren't you doing the same thing? It's far from obvious in the book, and there are compelling arguments either way. Since it's unclear, an interpretation is needed. Since I have a) multiple e-mails that say yes and b) zero e-mails that say no it would be foolishness to assume the preponderance of evidence was with b. As soon as I or someone in my group gets an e-mail stating no, we'll do our own house rule or 4+ it. But just as no one is inclined to consider the fact that I have received zero e-mails that say no, I'm not particularly inclined to choose the devil I don't know over the devil I do based on the opinions of people who seem to think I'm committing a crime by playing GW's game by the rules they give me.

I'm still having trouble with this line of reasoning:
a) No one in the group can definitively determine whether Chiefs use BS to fire Howdah Weapons.
b) Multiple people send e-mails to Games Workshop and receive official replies.
c) Every single one of those replies says to use his BS.
d) Don't use his BS because someone might have gotten a different result elsewhere.

See, you can't have a halfway solution. It has to be either one or the other. In our group, not just the preponderance, but the totality of evidence points to one way, and if someone tried to argue with e-mails from GW by talking about forum posts and e-mails other people may have gotten he'd get laughed out of the store.

Until we have a FAQ, this is the best we can do. If someone gave me an e-mail from GW saying Cannons could fly, I'd play it that way, even though that's directly against the rules in the book, completely unlike the situation with Howdah Weapons.

slingersam
26-03-2009, 04:33
Can someone explain why the stegidon is OP against
Wood elves, I never really understood that concept.

Kerill
26-03-2009, 04:49
Aren't you doing the same thing? It's far from obvious in the book, and there are compelling arguments either way. Since it's unclear, an interpretation is needed. Since I have a) multiple e-mails that say yes and b) zero e-mails that say no it would be foolishness to assume the preponderance of evidence was with b. As soon as I or someone in my group gets an e-mail stating no, we'll do our own house rule or 4+ it. But just as no one is inclined to consider the fact that I have received zero e-mails that say no, I'm not particularly inclined to choose the devil I don't know over the devil I do based on the opinions of people who seem to think I'm committing a crime by playing GW's game by the rules they give me.

I'm still having trouble with this line of reasoning:
a) No one in the group can definitively determine whether Chiefs use BS to fire Howdah Weapons.
b) Multiple people send e-mails to Games Workshop and receive official replies.
c) Every single one of those replies says to use his BS.
d) Don't use his BS because someone might have gotten a different result elsewhere.

See, you can't have a halfway solution. It has to be either one or the other. In our group, not just the preponderance, but the totality of evidence points to one way, and if someone tried to argue with e-mails from GW by talking about forum posts and e-mails other people may have gotten he'd get laughed out of the store.

Until we have a FAQ, this is the best we can do. If someone gave me an e-mail from GW saying Cannons could fly, I'd play it that way, even though that's directly against the rules in the book, completely unlike the situation with Howdah Weapons.

The point is that you have ZERO official replies. The "roolz boyz" don't know the rules, and have gone both ways on the issue. If someone talked about getting an email from the "roolz boyz" in a store then they are the ones who should be laughed out of the store.

That's the issue, what they say has no validity whatsoever, zero, nilch, nada. They have been consistently proven to give different answers (and ansers contrary to the rules) so many times over the years that consulting them is laughable.

Dead man walking is right, if you aren't sure if you CAN do something in the rules, its only gentlemanly and fair to your opponent (who collects a different army in most cases) to not try to push YOUR interpretation which makes YOUR ARMY more powerful.

I was one of the few players who felt the Eye of the Gods rules allowed champions to challenge, but the wording was unlcear so I played it in the most disadvantageous way to my army, ditto with enchanted shield. The FAQ ruled in both cases in a way that was beneficial to my army. Does this mean I was wrong to use the other interpretation before? No, I was just being fair.

I play lizards as well, am currently converting a seperate stegadon with bow that a chief may ride sometimes but I will be shooting at BS3 unless I hear otherwise, because its fair.

I have two units of salamanders in my army, can they march and shoot (would be better for me if they did) no they can't since they aren't specifically allowed to.

If you have a house rule agreed by all sides, fair enough, we had to house rule "ranged attack" last weekend, as long as mostly people who don't play the army/armies in question are involved you can have a good house rule.

The arguments against using the howdah weapons are:
1) It is not allowed
2) Any other character that can use a war machine has a special rule to specifically allow them
3) Displaces a crew member, doesn't replace them
4) Logical issue- on an ancient stegadon how does the chief fire both blowpipes at the same time?, does he fart out of one and blow out of the other or what?
and of course there is number 5) Be fair to your opponent and don't try to wangle advantages that you are unsure about.

@slingersam, not stegadons, EOTG. An army with its main units almost never more than 7 in a unit gets destroyed by the engine.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
26-03-2009, 05:38
Unless it says clearly in the rules that this is the intention, then no it can not be done. On daemonic legions there was a massive discussion in regards to the torment blade, because it was a hand weapon and the KoS already had one some believed it gave an extra attack. Quiet clearly this wasn't the case because if this was the intention it would have said counts as an additional hand weapon.

This is simply another case of because it says X in this part of the book, and Y in this part, then that must mean that I can do A. If something is unclear, then chances are it probably isn't correct. Trying to say that it is ok simply encourages this sort of thing and that isn't good for the hobby. Besides if you turn out to be wrong, then no one will trust you and question everything you say which is frustrating.

I think it has been long established that you can't believe everything GW says. Just because they work for the company doesn't mean they are right. If you phone up the roolz boyz or send them an email, how do you know your talking to somebody who actually plays the game? In all likely hood it is outsourced to a call centre somewhere, and your getting stock replies, or someone is looking up a knowledge base or because you make a compelling arguement they are simply agreeing with you.

However if your group is happy enough with it, then go ahead just don't expect everybody else to see where you are coming from.

Mutton
26-03-2009, 08:32
Unless it says clearly in the rules that this is the intention, then no it can not be done. On daemonic legions there was a massive discussion in regards to the torment blade, because it was a hand weapon and the KoS already had one some believed it gave an extra attack. Quiet clearly this wasn't the case because if this was the intention it would have said counts as an additional hand weapon.

This is simply another case of because it says X in this part of the book, and Y in this part, then that must mean that I can do A. If something is unclear, then chances are it probably isn't correct. Trying to say that it is ok simply encourages this sort of thing and that isn't good for the hobby. Besides if you turn out to be wrong, then no one will trust you and question everything you say which is frustrating.

I think it has been long established that you can't believe everything GW says. Just because they work for the company doesn't mean they are right. If you phone up the roolz boyz or send them an email, how do you know your talking to somebody who actually plays the game? In all likely hood it is outsourced to a call centre somewhere, and your getting stock replies, or someone is looking up a knowledge base or because you make a compelling arguement they are simply agreeing with you.

However if your group is happy enough with it, then go ahead just don't expect everybody else to see where you are coming from.



So GW has a division put forth for the express purpose of answering questions such as whether the Steg uses the Chief's BS or not. At my club we keep a binder of emails from GW on issues such as this. That or common sense. Hell, we used DoW for Dreadnought firing arcs back in 4th. But you can't just discount what is basically official rulings. Dispute whether these people are lying or not, but attacking the source is meaningless.

Dungeon_Lawyer
26-03-2009, 09:31
On the issue of the bs of the skink chief and his ability to use howdah weapons: lets just all agree to disagree until the faq comes out, this debate is becoming cantankerous and its getting old. No one on either side of the debate is going to have an epithany and all of a sudden recant their previous interpretation.

And should any of us meet accross the tabletop in battle before the faq is released, let us all agree to roll a dice.

Sound good?

Kerill
26-03-2009, 09:34
So GW has a division put forth for the express purpose of answering questions such as whether the Steg uses the Chief's BS or not. At my club we keep a binder of emails from GW on issues such as this. That or common sense. Hell, we used DoW for Dreadnought firing arcs back in 4th. But you can't just discount what is basically official rulings. Dispute whether these people are lying or not, but attacking the source is meaningless.

No GW has no such division. They have a development team but you don't get to email them, you only get to email the sales people in the call centre. Infact you would be better off calling a random call centre from a different company for an opinion because they wouldn't have a vested interest in selling stegadon boxes.

And you can (and should) discount what are in no way official rulings.

Hell I don't even trust what the developers say until its actually in an FAQ, their online articles (written by the development team) are full of errors. For example chaos sorcerors taking enchanted shield:
WD report, the books author takes the enchanted shield for sorceror
Later online article, the author stated sorcerors can't take enchanted shield
FAQ: they can take the enchanted shield.

Lizardmen tactics article written by someone on the development team completely fails to understand what the rules for feigned flight are.

So to sum up:
1) There is no division of specialists answering rules queries, just sales assistants in a call centre. You'd be just as well off calling the british telecom call centre and asking their opinion
2) The development team is not responsible for the replies
3) Even IF a dev answered your question (which WON'T happen) it still can't be considered official since they change their position on things so often.

Which puts us back to square 1.

Neknoh
26-03-2009, 11:53
Can someone explain why the stegidon is OP against
Wood elves, I never really understood that concept.

Stegadons in themselves aren't overpowered against wood elves, however, they ARE very, very powerful, but Wood Elves can generally avoid them in a decent way. They might not deal with them effectively, but they don't have to, if it munches a unit of dryads, the loss is negligible etc.

Now, the problem comes with the Engine of the Gods, it doesn't matter if you run rings around it, it will STILL fry tonnes of wood elf units... EACH turn, if you trap it in a forrest, good game, you've now placed the Engine of the Gods inside of a forest that is likely in the middle of the board... who says it even WANTS to get out of there?

Wood Elves have a general lack of high strength and/or multi-wound weapons, meaning they'll have issues with stegadons in general.

Although, I do wonder, what would the Spirit Sword do to a Steg?




Now, in other news, is there an army that could do 35 wounds to stegadons?

Hrmm....

Chaos Lord
- Hellfire Sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Collar of Khorne, Shield and Disc.

OR a Level 4 Nurgle sorceror with Spell Familliar. Cloying Quagmire should nom stegadons left, right and centre.

2 Buboes Sorcerors.

Units of Horsemen, Warhounds and Warriors as people see fit.

4 units of Dragon Ogres with Greatweapons

2 Dragon Ogre Shaggoths with Greatweapons (5 strength 8 attacks each)

That SHOULD do it, at least if the Horsemen and Warhounds can get to the skinks.

Mireadur
26-03-2009, 12:19
Really, people just need more experience facing them, I think. Remember how Swordmasters seemed like the end of the world? It's kinda like that.

In all reality swordmasters have never been the end of the world. :p (or never should have anyway)


Edit: about the debate with the skink hero and howdaw weapon, heroes can join warmachine crews but dont give them their HP.. (except engineers of course) page 85 BRB.

Is there any adendum in the LM book specifying skink heroes operate the howdaw weapons or the bolt thrower? if theres not, then there should have never been debate.

Mercules
26-03-2009, 20:46
Can someone explain why the stegidon is OP against
Wood elves, I never really understood that concept.

Well... 2 units of Glade Guard = the cost of a Stegadon. Lets do some math.

We will assume they all get to shoot at max range 30" to start with 5x2 formation on a hill. 20 shots, BS 4 so 3+, Long 4+, Large Target 3+. 13.3333 hits randomized, 9 go to Steg and 4 to Skinks. S3 vrs To2 Skinks so 3+ to wound, 2.6666 wounds, 3+ AS so 1.7777 Skinks dead. S3 vrs. To6 of the Steg, 1.5 wounds, AS 4+ so .75 wounds.

Steg moves 12" and GG move up to 15" Range for Short and S4 shots, 16.6666 hits, 5 to Skinks 11 to Steg. S4 Vrs. To2 Skinks 2+ to wound, 4 Wounds and 4+ AS means 2 wounds. S4 vrs. To6 6+ to wound still, 1.83333 wounds. 5+ AS so 1.22222 wounds.

One more repeat, then a stand and shoot from 10 of them(if the WE player had room to move back some) and the Steg is in combat.

How about Special vrs special.

Wild Riders - I'll give them FC and a Warbanner to get them closer on points. No Terror or Fear checks as they are ITP. We will even give them the charge. Charging the front we can get 4 in combat including the Champ. Smart thing would be to aim at the riders for easy CR. 5 WS 5 vrs WS 2 means 3+ to hit, 3.3333 hits. S5 vrs, To 2 so 2+ to wound, 2.7 wounds. AS 5+ so 1.8511851 wounds. Horses now, WS 3 S3 vrs WS 2 To2 so 3+/3+, 4 attacks so 1.7777 more wounds. 3+ AS though, so only .595959 wounds. 2 skinks dead, roughly.

3 Skinks and Steg strike back. Steg WS 3 so 4+ to hit with 4 attacks, 2 hit. S5 so 2+ to wound, 1.666666 wounds. Ward Save of 5+, 1.11111 wounds. Skinks now need 5+ to hit with 3 attacks, 1 hit. 5+ to wound, .33333 wounds. 6+ AS and then 5+ Ward save, .18511851 wounds. 1 dead Wild Rider.

WEs have CR 2+banner+Warbanner so 4.
Steg has SC 1+Outnumber so 2.

Stubborn so full LD on check means 68.1% chance holding with the Cold Blooded unless there is a Standard or General nearby.

So WEs can break a Steg but they HAVE to have the charge and dice are going to play a big part of it. WE shooting is not going to cut it, they are going to have to charge and they will want a flank.


So you are right, WEs can deal with Stegs, but they don't have anything like a Balista, Cannon, or other monster killer, they are going to have to fight it and those fights can quickly go either way.

Malorian
26-03-2009, 20:51
My woodelves wouldn't be so worried about a steg. I can march block it and concentrate on the rest of the army.

The think my wood elves would be worried about are skinks, terradons, and razordons... (not to mention the slann's magic)

slingersam
26-03-2009, 21:23
I thought the armor save with a stegadon and the
skinks is a set at 2+? So no modifiers, but I could
be wrong

Dokushin
26-03-2009, 21:31
Stegadon: 4+ scaly skin, and all riders have a 3+ unmodifiable armor save.

Ancient Stegadon: 3+ scaly skin, and all riders have a 2+ unmodifiable armor save.

Mercules
26-03-2009, 22:04
Never mind... Unmodifiable changes a few of my calculations. Even so WE can deal with Stegadons, I just wouldn't want to take on 6 Stegs at 2,250.

Neknoh
26-03-2009, 22:36
And then, as said, even if you marchblock it and shoot at it and bog it down, if it's got an Engine of the Gods, it'll STILL fry half of your T3 Daemonic Save army

imweasel
26-03-2009, 22:39
So GW has a division put forth for the express purpose of answering questions such as whether the Steg uses the Chief's BS or not. At my club we keep a binder of emails from GW on issues such as this. That or common sense. Hell, we used DoW for Dreadnought firing arcs back in 4th. But you can't just discount what is basically official rulings. Dispute whether these people are lying or not, but attacking the source is meaningless.

That very same 'division' also wrote an email to us on a 40k ruling that was specifically reversed/contradicted in a faq. (Eldar being able to assault after disembarking from a transport that moved that was neither open-topped or an assault vehicle if they ran since they had fleet).

Trust me, those 'division email answers' to rules questions should carry no weight whatsoever. It's not 'the people lying or not', it really is that the source is meaningless.

If these email responses are truly to be upheld, simply put out a new faq/errata.

It's not that difficult at all.

sroblin
27-03-2009, 00:14
My woodelves wouldn't be so worried about a steg. I can march block it and concentrate on the rest of the army.

The think my wood elves would be worried about are skinks, terradons, and razordons... (not to mention the slann's magic)

March blocking terror causing creatures can be a dicey proposition. And if they're EoTG, it can also be very painful as previously pointed out.

Probably still the best tactic for Wood Elves to give time for their shooting to grind it down, but it's not like the Stegs are especially vulnerable to it.

soots
27-03-2009, 02:00
Its not unclear. Its crystal clear - No where does it say the chief can use the bow.

Just because it doesnt say he cant use it doesnt mean he can.

In the stegadon profile, whats to stop a stegadon from flying? It doesnt say the stegadon CANT fly?

slingersam
27-03-2009, 02:11
Its not unclear. Its crystal clear - No where does it say the chief can use the bow.

Just because it doesnt say he cant use it doesnt mean he can.

In the stegadon profile, whats to stop a stegadon from flying? It doesnt say the stegadon CANT fly?

But in the BRB it sates that the only thing that can fly is
a unit with that special rule. In the rulebook it doesn't
address the issue of a hero riding on a mount, using the
mounts weapons.

Dead Man Walking
27-03-2009, 03:35
Its funny how strongly people will hang on to the chief bsb non-existing rule, its like if they shout it loud enough then it will become reality through sheer will alone.

This fake rule alone is one of the most tenacious fake rules out there and it spreads like Hangovers and accidental pregnancies after a Frat party. Stop spreading it around and just be patient for a FAQ. :skull:

Dungeon_Lawyer
27-03-2009, 04:01
Its funny how strongly people will hang on to the chief bsb non-existing rule, its like if they shout it loud enough then it will become reality through sheer will alone.

This fake rule(no, just an unclear situation) alone is one of the most tenacious fake rules out there and it spreads like Hangovers and accidental pregnancies after a Frat party. Stop spreading it around and just be patient for a FAQ. :skull:



Its prob gonna come down to economics:

GW will/wants to sell as much stegs as possible, a large contingent of players want a chief who can use his bs with the stegs weapons,.GW, in order to maximize profits responds to their queries in the affrimative!

"Spreading it around" is actually the best thing for those of use on the side of the debate who feel the chief should be able to lend his bs to the howdah weapons! S

Dead Man Walking
27-03-2009, 04:10
Your going to buy stegadons anyways, espeacially a chief on one if only to slobber over the potential of 2d6+2 impact hits from the warspear. Yesterday I hit with another steggie into a unit of bloodknights and did 17 impact hits, so dont tell me that getting a better bow shot is going to make us buy more steggies.

mr.kislev
27-03-2009, 05:41
you could take 2 normal stegs wich is fine with me or 1 EotG (i hate those large buggers)

Ultimo ninja
27-03-2009, 06:22
Has anyone here even tried painting one of these things? They are MASSIVE and SUPER DETAILED!

If i was to do just one steg justice, it would take me a period of two weeks at best just to paint it! If someone wants to spend that much money, time, and effort to get multiples of this model in their army....so be it. Ill just demand they are painted, and then I will put kholek suneater on the table.

soots
27-03-2009, 07:26
I dont think Stegadons are cash cows so to speak. Theyre what? $60 for 235 points.

235 points in skinks... Now thats a lot of money :)

dwarfhold13
27-03-2009, 07:30
i know someone earlier said something about the bolt thrower on top... in any of my games, when i use to use one in the old list.. i NEVER hit with one.. that thing is there just to have the lucky hit on the way to charge..

Dead Man Walking
27-03-2009, 11:36
I dont think Stegadons are cash cows so to speak. Theyre what? $60 for 235 points.

235 points in skinks... Now thats a lot of money :)

They are $40 bucks, and I bet $40 bucks right now that next lizzie book will make it so you cant field so many and then everyone will be sitting on extra steggies they cant use. However, we all know its not about what a model costs, its about what a model does that matters. I've never walked up to a table and said, "Wow, that unit of bloodknights must of cost you 120 bucks." or "These 4 units of 4 kroxigor cost me nearly $350, so watch out!"

The giant bow are nice if you plan on playing defencive, you cant always out charge your opponent with 12 inch charges, like against brittonians or the all mounted undead army with vamp lord on undead dragon (20 inches). Frankly if you cant switch between defencive and offencive when you want with your army your in trouble in a tourney, more so with defencive than offensive but you do sometimes need to get to the other side of the table or defend a location to win. Steggies can do both.

StarFyre
27-03-2009, 12:18
Dead Man - I expect in 8E, lizards will still be able to use just as many stegadons. Remember, GW needs cash...anything for sales is better for the company however, what I am hoping for (and is fluffy and would be cool).

like what they did with the HE dragon, make a weaker version that can be used by heroes (dragon mage), make a plastic carnosaur kit, and make a young carnosaur, that can be taken by scar vets.

That way, people who use a slann, may still buy it since it would look cool..a slann AND a carnosaur model in a 2K army...

again, it could help with more sales since I know many lizardmen players who don't have a slann OR don't have a carnosaur since they can only use 1 in a 2k army...

I am personally hoping for that since I'm addicted to buying models :D

Sanjay

Mireadur
27-03-2009, 12:26
But in the BRB it sates that the only thing that can fly is
a unit with that special rule. In the rulebook it doesn't
address the issue of a hero riding on a mount, using the
mounts weapons.
mounts weapons? hehe do you think this is 40k or the 2nd world war?

It is a warmachine mounted on a monster, just that friend.

Ill repeat myself: unless in the LM book states the chief can operate the machines, he shouldnt be able to, page 85 BRB (too lazy to look at it sorry, but im going to supose it doesnt specify it as there would be no debate).

Dead Man Walking
27-03-2009, 12:35
I have the feeling that mounts will probably take up a rare slot next book, which means 2 mounted skinks in 2k games.

nosferatu1001
27-03-2009, 13:38
mounts weapons? hehe do you think this is 40k or the 2nd world war?

It is a warmachine mounted on a monster, just that friend.

Ill repeat myself: unless in the LM book states the chief can operate the machines, he shouldnt be able to, page 85 BRB (too lazy to look at it sorry, but im going to supose it doesnt specify it as there would be no debate).

Show me the rule that states that howdah weapons are warmachines.

Oh wait, you can't. Theyre not warmachines, and do not follow any rules for warmachines*. Throw p85 all you like, but it is irrelevant if it talks about warmachines. Got that? gah.

*the giant bow follows a rule for bolt throwers, namely it penetrates ranks in the same way. in absolutely no way are they warmachines

N810
27-03-2009, 14:50
look at the Steg Q&A
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190322

jax40kplyr1
27-03-2009, 15:01
Good Q&A on that one - I still have to debate whether or not the EOTG Burning Alignment is magical or not. I mean - its a big fricking laser beam shooting relic from the Old Ones. Plus - isn't the Casket of Souls for Tomb Kings considered magical?
Everyone debating on the howdah weapon - wait for a FAQ. There really isn't strong evidence either way.
An additional problem that folks seem to have with the steggies is that you have to kill the whole model - killing crew isn't going to get you half victory points. Additionally, it always counts as US10. Couple that with being a terror causer and it makes it veeerry dangerous in grinding combats.
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have portent of fear cast on the EOTG unit, you reroll all to wounds of 1 with the Burning Alignment too correct? T3 look out!

Bac5665
27-03-2009, 15:33
The casket would only be magical if it says that its magical. I don't know if it does or not off the top of my head.

Semiholy243
27-03-2009, 15:36
(sigh) I'm sorry for being terse about this, but it's turning into something of a common discussion.

I've got three e-mails from three separate people with official GW letterhead, all from the official contact at GW concerning rules questions. All three of them, among other things, ask if the Chief can use his BS to fire Howdah weapons, and all three of them answer that by saying that you can.

It's debatable in the book. It's not debatable in the followup from GW. I'm open to anything from Games Workshop to the contrary, but please don't make me type this again based on personal opinion in the book.

I've called the rules boyz before twice on the same question and got contradicting answers. they're not a reliable source.

what is a reliable source is the rules, which state only crewman may fire their bolt throwers. as stated above he displaces the crew, not replaces them, and even if it said replace that still would not give him the engineer ability to fire war machines using his ballistic skill.

otherwise i could place a prince with my repeater bolt throwers and give them BS 6 ;)

Dokushin
27-03-2009, 16:28
I've called the rules boyz before twice on the same question and got contradicting answers. they're not a reliable source.

what is a reliable source is the rules, which state only crewman may fire their bolt throwers. as stated above he displaces the crew, not replaces them, and even if it said replace that still would not give him the engineer ability to fire war machines using his ballistic skill.

otherwise i could place a prince with my repeater bolt throwers and give them BS 6 ;)

This gets trotted out a lot -- the rule that prevents you from using a characters BS with your RBT is in the 'Warmachine' rule. Howdah Weapons are -not- warmachines, nor do they have the 'Warmachine' rule.

lakissov
27-03-2009, 16:43
wait, so you say that if I put a dark elf master in my Cold One Chariot, then the two crossbows will fire with his BS6? Nonsense! These are shooting weapons of the mount, not of the character himself! He doesn't fire them - the mount does (using its own BS, or the BS of its crew, which is in case of COC the chariot crew and in case of steg the skinks on top)

Dungeon_Lawyer
27-03-2009, 17:06
look at the Steg Q&A
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190322

Im cutting and pasting it here for all of us involved in the debate to see!!!


Here's some usefull information from over at "The Pyramid Vault"
This is as official as it gets untill the FAQ comes out.


Originally Posted by Dokushin
I sent a pretty big list of questions to ol' John Spencer at askyourquestion at gw.com, and he took the time to answer them all for me. (Thanks, John!) Just in case anyone is wondering what his bounceback is for any of this, here's the response:


Quote 1) Can the Skink Chief use his BS to fire the Howdah weapons (Great Bow and Giant Blowpipes)?

Yes, but only one of the Giant Blowpipes can use his BS.


2) Since they aren't warmachines, can the Howdah weapons be used for a Stand and Shoot reactions?

Yes.


3) If the Skink Chief can use the Howdah Weapons, does the Venom of the Firefly Frog affect them?

No.


oh one more thing
My emailed rules query regarding the chief, bs, & howdah weapons was answered with an affirmative too. The "no he cant camp" is losing steam........now if only that dam faq would come out to put the nail in the coffin for good.

Dead Man Walking
27-03-2009, 23:38
That q&a source is not RAW nor a FAQ so cant be used. Beyond the reasons given before, because those answers are not accessible to everyone who plays this game.

Personally I would love it if we could use the bs of the skink, but I am not going to abuse my opponents until faq'd.

Mireadur
28-03-2009, 00:34
Show me the rule that states that howdah weapons are warmachines.

Oh wait, you can't. Theyre not warmachines, and do not follow any rules for warmachines*. Throw p85 all you like, but it is irrelevant if it talks about warmachines. Got that? gah.

*the giant bow follows a rule for bolt throwers, namely it penetrates ranks in the same way. in absolutely no way are they warmachines

I was just reading the ruling on the howdaw weapons. It says it takes 2 crewmembers to shoot the giant bolt thrower and 1 crewman for each blowpipe. The hero replaces 1 of the crew but it is not a crew member.

Also if you could stand and shoot with the thing i believe it would be explained (just like anything else in the book it is), but it just says you can move and shoot.

And yes it doesnt say the giant bow shoots as a bolt thrower it just says that penetrates ranks as a bolt thrower would.

Seriously guys, you build up castles from the sand so easily that i continously get amazed.

Who knows how this will be FAQ'ed, but after reading it, i have to reaffirm myself in my stance.

Dungeon_Lawyer
28-03-2009, 03:31
Purely hypothetical fluff argument using my imagination but makes incredible sense (to half of us anyways) in this post:

For me anyways, I imagine that yes, 2 crewmembers are needed to operate the giant bolt thrower, but only in the sense that both are needed to pull the bowstring and lock and load it into firing position, only one crewmember is needed to fire the dam thing-look at how the steg is modeled on page 84 (yes yes I know its all speculative-Im just using common sense and some imagination here so dont flame me for me being "patronizing") ON page 84 there is only one skink in the firing postion with his finger on the firing button! Why wouldnt that firing skink be the best shooter in the howdah? Viz. the skink chief?!?!/!

I mean skinks aren't stupid. They are depicted as quite astute in the fluff. They want to survive the battle right? You give the shot to your best shooter, and chiefs are the best shooters and most warlike....and stuff...

Dead Man Walking
28-03-2009, 04:02
Purely hypothetical fluff argument using my imagination but makes incredible sense (to half of us anyways) in this post:

For me anyways, I imagine that yes, 2 crewmembers are needed to operate the giant bolt thrower, but only in the sense that both are needed to pull the bowstring and lock and load it into firing position, only one crewmember is needed to fire the dam thing-look at how the steg is modeled on page 84 (yes yes I know its all speculative-Im just using common sense and some imagination here so dont flame me for me being "patronizing") ON page 84 there is only one skink in the firing postion with his finger on the firing button! Why wouldnt that firing skink be the best shooter in the howdah? Viz. the skink chief?!?!/!

I mean skinks aren't stupid. They are depicted as quite astute in the fluff. They want to survive the battle right? You give the shot to your best shooter, and chiefs are the best shooters and most warlike....and stuff...

Oh by the way, its a Giant BOW, not a Giant CROSSBOW, theres no lock and no firing button. Two skinks pull back the string and then TWANG let go and hope something dies.


You want to base this game on being sensible? This is Warhammer right? Goblin who drinks fungus beer becomes a whirlwind of death with a chain and ball that weighs a ton? A dwarf machine that spits superheated metal? A big fat toad that sits on a levetating lazy boy made of stone?


Okay.... maybe the chief is too busy watching the battle unfold and inbetween chirping out battle commands only has time to point and say, "Shoot that sucka!" Oh, my skink chief wears an afro and calls himself Shaft, Sucka!

N810
28-03-2009, 06:03
Ummm a Bolt Thrower is A giant Cross Bow,
And the NEW one is modeled as such.
and it has a lever and gears on the end attached to the skinks hand.

nosferatu1001
28-03-2009, 13:36
Also if you could stand and shoot with the thing i believe it would be explained (just like anything else in the book it is), but it just says you can move and shoot.


It can stand and shoot because nothing prevents it from doing so, and it has permission to do so under the main rulebook - lack of "explanation" doesnt mean jack in this case.

Dungeon_Lawyer
28-03-2009, 18:23
Ummm a Bolt Thrower is A giant Cross Bow,
And the NEW one is modeled as such.
and it has a lever and gears on the end attached to the skinks hand.

thank you n810!

what he said, eerrr, wrote.:)

Lord0rcus
29-03-2009, 04:38
Back towards the original topic, I played a 4 stegadon list (Mazdamundi, EtoG Priest, 2 chiefs on stegs) against a "Wall of Nurgle" daemon list and it just destroyed them. In my other battles, I find an engine and a chief with the spear make an incredibly powerful duo.

Mireadur
29-03-2009, 20:05
It can stand and shoot because nothing prevents it from doing so, and it has permission to do so under the main rulebook - lack of "explanation" doesnt mean jack in this case.

Maybe you are right, it doesnt say its a warmachine after all (although until a faq i will keep using the howdah weapons as warmachines since the rules for them also talk about crew and how the crew can only stand and shoot with their own missile weapons, if any, which in this case would be the javelins... We will have to wait).