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captainramoz
25-03-2009, 14:56
Are the orks really that bad in a world were every race doesn´t care about the other at least orks do care about good enemies.
And are quite noble and proud of.
I see them as wh40k fat majin bu:)

Templar Ben
25-03-2009, 14:59
The only good Xenos is a dead Xenos.

Darkstar2586
25-03-2009, 15:04
Lol Templar Ben, a righteous answer indeed!

Orks arnt good or bad, they just like to fight, which to them is a good thing.

Corrode
25-03-2009, 15:04
There is an argument to be made that in a universe of terrifying genocidal races (not least of which is the Imperium itself), the Orks are probably the best of the lot. At least they're not going to eat any parts of you, whether it be your soul or your flesh, or try and possess you, or make you subservient to their Greater Good. Or burn you at the stake for being a witch.

That said, there's no-one really 'good' in 40k.

Mannimarco
25-03-2009, 15:07
they are neither good or bad, they are simply a force of nature

Buddha777
25-03-2009, 15:08
There is an old argument that Ork, created by Old Ones, act like the white blood cells of the galaxy. When a race gets too strong the Orks will naturally want to come in conflict with them. When no power dominates they fight amongst themselves.

In that sense they are the good guys protecting the balance of the galaxy, even if they don't know it.

PaddyF
25-03-2009, 15:14
Good and Evil are entirely points of view so it is a case of applying your own metrics. Do you think they are good?

captainramoz
25-03-2009, 15:23
The only good Xenos is a dead Xenos.

Da only good humie is the fighting humie(but preferably dead)
Paddyf:there are bad guys at least especially chaos(the cheasiest Force ever)

PaddyF
25-03-2009, 15:24
Da ded onez dun fight tho so da livin' onez are mur fun hurr hurr

EVIL INC
25-03-2009, 15:26
Chaotic Nuetral.
*Runs to hide from the backlash generated by applying a D&D alignment to orks.*

captainramoz
25-03-2009, 15:26
da ded onez dun fight tho so da livin' onez are mur fun hurr hurr
waghmen for that

Templar Ben
25-03-2009, 15:32
Chaotic Nuetral.
*Runs to hide from the backlash generated by applying a D&D alignment to orks.*

So Imp of Man must be Lawful Evil? :p Shame 4th edition killed alignments.

Capt.

You bring your Xenos and I will bring my hummies and we will see who is good since good always wins right? :angel:

Irondog
25-03-2009, 15:41
they are neither good or bad, they are simply a force of nature

QFT! The Orks may never rule the galaxy, but we'll make damn sure nobody else does either.

captainramoz
25-03-2009, 16:06
QFT! The Orks may never rule the galaxy, but we'll make damn sure nobody else does either.

Waaghmen for gork and mork and gorbad
Maibe all we orks do is fighting but at least we are good at it and we keep it clean(no drug like coff........all other races) no backstab and no quarter for sumission just pure art of destruction
KEEP IT REAL KEEP IT ORKY¡

Bookwrak
25-03-2009, 16:11
The Orks definitely fall into the 'Disorder' side of the 40k spectrum.

sigur
25-03-2009, 16:12
Are the orks really that bad in a world were every race doesn´t care about the other at least orks do care about good enemies.
And are quite noble and proud of.
I see them as wh40k fat majin bu:)

Please get rid of the thought that there are any good or bad guys in 40k as soon as possible. Same goes for WHFB.

captainramoz
25-03-2009, 16:15
The Orks definitely fall into the 'Disorder' side of the 40k spectrum.
U have a point there guy with a creppy i see the truth avatar (where is it from)
But we should say disorder is better than teochracy, look for ourselves, burn them all or brainwash side.
Orks at least keep it klean they keep it orky

Ubermensch Commander
25-03-2009, 16:49
A race of savage scum sucking pieces of fungus that exist solely to tear down what others have built and enslave them without ever building a civilization of their own worth mentioning counts as evil in my book.

They may be stupid evil, unorganized evil, but its still evil. They just are not as effective at it as other races may be. Theirs is the evil of the bored bully, of the mindless thug, of the 6 year old who lights an anthill on fire to giggle "cuz its shiny".

So no, there is nothing noble or proud about the filth. They are simply too stupid to realize their debased state.

Lordmonkey
25-03-2009, 16:59
There is an old argument that Ork, created by Old Ones, act like the white blood cells of the galaxy. When a race gets too strong the Orks will naturally want to come in conflict with them. When no power dominates they fight amongst themselves.

In that sense they are the good guys protecting the balance of the galaxy, even if they don't know it.

I don't think thats supposed to be canon, but it's certainly the effect. Orks fight and kill aliens until they are the dominant power... and then they fight themselves!

And the Orks always win.

Poseidal
25-03-2009, 17:16
In 40k there are no good guys.

Only bad and worse guys.

Nym
25-03-2009, 18:19
As some people pointed out, Good and Evil are just subjective concepts invented in order to keep our society in order. In 40k, these concepts work exactly in the same way, which is why every race is both good AND evil.

It's a bit like religions if I dare to draw this parallel, according to the bible, non-christians will go to hell, but according to the coran, non-muslims will go to hell. Therefore, everyone will go to hell.

sydbridges
25-03-2009, 18:33
Please get rid of the thought that there are any good or bad guys in 40k as soon as possible. Same goes for WHFB.

I dunno. While I would argue that there aren't really any 'good' guys, some of the races are decidedly more evil than others. Necrons are omnicidal maniacs - nothing good will come of them visiting your world. The number of times a Daemons incursion is beneficial for an inhabited world is probably staggeringly low, somewhere around zero.

I'd argue that it's not that there's no such thing as good guys or bad guys, it's that the options are bad guys and worse guys.

lanrak
25-03-2009, 19:11
Hi all.
When I am playing my Orks they are the 'good guys'.
Everybody else plays the 'evil' Orks .... :D

TTFN
Lanrak.

sabre4190
25-03-2009, 19:27
Yeah, I would never say Orks are "good". They enjoy killing, and fighting, even when their victims are innocents. Killing innocents when it is unneccesary and for complete joy is generally speaking, not going to fit with any reasonable view of morality.

But I wouldnt say that they are evil in the sense that chaos is. They are that force of nature, that just destroys everything in its path. We wouldnt say a tidal wave is good, but it would be a bit tricky to argue that its unholy evil.

MadJackMcJack
25-03-2009, 19:32
Please get rid of the thought that there are any good or bad guys in 40k as soon as possible. Same goes for WHFB.

Pfffft, fantasy has a definite good/evil divide, it's just that sometimes the good guys can be complete gits and commit evil acts in a "Did what we had to" scenario. But at the end of the day, they are fighting to defeat, or at least stave off, the bad guys, and will readily ally with each other in the face of something big and nasty. Not like 40K, where you have the Tau ("Join us or we'll kill you"), the Imperium ("Human? Serve us or we'll kill you. Xenos? We're gonna kill you") and the Eldar ("Stay here while we trick someone else into killing you"), who are only deemed good because they're the lesser evil (at least they kill you quickly).

Angelust
25-03-2009, 22:19
Oh boy, post-modernity applied to sci-fi orks with gunz. Hilarity to ensue..

Sir_Turalyon
25-03-2009, 22:44
Actualy, Orks are defenders of the galaxy left by Old Ones ;) . Like immunity system of an organism they occasionaly (ok, all the time) do negledgible damage to what they protect without destroying it. Ork background repeats at every opportunity that if orkdom could unite, they would defeat all who oppose them, but they have too short attention spans to form and keep an union. And like immunity system they will react to dangers to whatever they are bulid to protect - if anything powerful enough to exterminate life in galaxy rises, it will present itself as strongest enemy around to the orks, so they'll lose interest in fighting weaker (less funny) enemies and swamp newcomers like children who found cheap ice cream vendor. As soon as new threat stops being biggest threat around, orks get bored, break their alliance and return to doing negledgible damage to humanity, eldar-dom and so on.

kikkoman
25-03-2009, 22:59
I see them as wh40k fat majin bu:)

Commissar Yarrick= Mr. Satan (Hercule)

Bork
25-03-2009, 23:17
I'd call them aggressively neutral.

zombied00d
25-03-2009, 23:36
The question of good or evil is entirely nonsensical for Orks. Good or Evil imply some sort of choice. A ork can no more chose not to fight than a Tyranid can. Good and evil are meaningless labels when applied without recourse to a knowing moral decision.

That's like saying a shark is evil.

I'll give you far and away, Orks are mean. But if their nature is inherently destructive, they, of their own volition, cannot be evil, because that implies making a choice. Which Orks simply cannot do.

Serg. Lynchbox
26-03-2009, 00:55
The Universe is the body
Imperial is like a tumor
Tyranids is like cancer
Tau is like a flu
And the rest are like small antibodies

BUT the Orks are like White blood cells like the guy in the previous post said. They do all the dirty work and turn into boogers (the dead) so the galaxy can pick its nose.

Vepr
26-03-2009, 01:31
In 40k there are no good guys.

Only bad and worse guys.

The Tyranids are always working towards bringing everyone in the universe together... into a nice genetic gruel.

souljaking09
26-03-2009, 04:36
it all depends on your perspective. I think they are evil because they eat humans. sometimes while they are alive. And I am a catachan player.:D

tyranids are worse because they plant their eggs inside humans. like in the "Aliens" movies.

Lord Dan
26-03-2009, 04:48
You know, if we're talking about ethics and motives, couldn't the Tau then be seen as "bad" guys?

captainramoz
26-03-2009, 15:59
You know, if we're talking about ethics and motives, couldn't the Tau then be seen as "bad" guys?

TAU and Orks ain´t that bad i mean yeahh orks are stupid fungus destructive guys but it´s their nature besides they keep it clean real and sober. Thats why they rule they don´t have complex nothing is grey for them neither it is for the tau they send you to paradise or they will brainwash but they won´t kill you.
Then my alignments
good guy´s:Orks and tau and marines
Grey guys: imperium(not marines) eldar dark eldar
colourless:Tiranids and necrons
Bad guy´s:csm and cd eventually c´tam too

Poseidal
26-03-2009, 16:08
You know, if we're talking about ethics and motives, couldn't the Tau then be seen as "bad" guys?

They are the bad guys. Along with pretty much everyone else.

gonzosbignose
26-03-2009, 16:34
All you guys have got it wrong...

My orks are good guys...

All of the stuff you own are bad guys...

Thats why we want to fight with you...

End of...

Regards

My name is Daniel and i am a wargamer

MadJackMcJack
26-03-2009, 16:42
Good, bad, I'ze got dakka!

Frontier
26-03-2009, 17:47
The more greenskins that fall before my guns or are crushed under my heels, the happier my Emperor is. There is no respite for the Ork menace. Not now. Not ever.

SPYDER68
26-03-2009, 18:10
I heard chaos was bad ? is this true ?

Frontier
26-03-2009, 18:49
I heard chaos was bad ? is this true ?


Just misunderstood.

captainramoz
27-03-2009, 03:36
It's a bit like religions if I dare to draw this parallel, according to the bible, non-christians will go to hell, but according to the coran, non-muslims will go to hell. Therefore, everyone will go to hell.
According to bible every good guy will go to heaven or everybody who at least tries to live and let live but helping if needed:D
Back to the topic chaos is horrendously bad they are the worst they want to burn everything no other race wants that:cries:

Lord Dan
27-03-2009, 03:42
(that's why I love being christian and livingjust like god said)


Let's be careful here, everyone.

vladsimpaler
27-03-2009, 03:47
In 40k there are no good guys.

Only bad and worse guys.

The Sensei are good guys!

*An Inquisitor appears, motions 2 guards with some very mean looking guns *

Lord Lucifer
27-03-2009, 03:57
Orks are noble in the sense of Nietzsche's treatment of Master and Slave morality, but they're uncultured in certain ways.
Good or Evil, they don't really care. Their view is that there's Orky, and Unorky. Orky is good, Unorky is not. Too bad for everyone else.


Everyone else, having to deal with Orks, will undoubtedly consider them evil

The Highwayman
27-03-2009, 10:12
tyranids are worse because they plant their eggs inside humans. like in the "Aliens" movies.

I was just wondering whether or not this was true? I don't have the tyranid codex but I have never heard anything in the background like this. I'm probally wrong and I would like to know where this information comes from as I thought tyranids just digested everything on a planet and turned it into biological gruel from where they made new tyranids.

It would be interesting though if they do plant eggs inside other creatures.

BramGaunt
27-03-2009, 10:24
Are the orks really that bad in a world were every race doesn´t care about the other at least orks do care about good enemies.
And are quite noble and proud of.
I see them as wh40k fat majin bu:)

I'd say Orks are somewhat like mushrooms... noone knows which side their'e on.... (two friends of mine were having a discussion about if mushrooms are plants, animals or aliens... they both study biology...)

Lord Lucifer
27-03-2009, 14:47
If you want a conclusive, GW-sanctioned answer, look at the models. If they are Spikier than Space Marines, they're Evil (with a capital E). If they're less Spiky than Space Marines, then they are Good.
It works better if you use the ACTUAL distinction in 40K. The universe is split into Space Marines and Not Space Marines.

The Clairvoyant
27-03-2009, 14:57
I was just wondering whether or not this was true? I don't have the tyranid codex but I have never heard anything in the background like this. I'm probally wrong and I would like to know where this information comes from as I thought tyranids just digested everything on a planet and turned it into biological gruel from where they made new tyranids.

It would be interesting though if they do plant eggs inside other creatures.

genestealers do this and give rise to genestealer hybrids. If its not in the current codex, its certainly in old fluff.
I'm not sure tyranids themselves implant humans, but it was a long time ago that i read anything tyranidy

captainramoz
27-03-2009, 14:59
Orks are noble in the sense of Nietzsche's treatment of Master and Slave morality, but they're uncultured in certain ways.
Good or Evil, they don't really care. Their view is that there's Orky, and Unorky. Orky is good, Unorky is not. Too bad for everyone else.


Everyone else, having to deal with Orks, will undoubtedly consider them evil
What about ogrins they are quite orky

0ld1eye
27-03-2009, 15:58
genestealers do this and give rise to genestealer hybrids. If its not in the current codex, its certainly in old fluff.
I'm not sure tyranids themselves implant humans, but it was a long time ago that i read anything tyranidy

Just the stealers, as they infiltrate a planet and generally don't have a biological weapons factory hovering in orbit.

USER1
27-03-2009, 16:30
with any reasonable view of morality.

There is no reasonable view of morality.
Morality is as illogical as religion but just not so obviously ridiculous.


The question of good or evil is entirely nonsensical for Orks.

I can improve that sentence;

The question of good or evil is entirely nonsensical.

captainramoz
27-03-2009, 23:08
There is no reasonable view of morality.
Morality is as illogical as religion but just not so obviously ridiculous.



I can improve that sentence;

The question of good or evil is entirely nonsensical.
For orks
Ithink i have my solution the guy´s gw tries to make look bad are actually the ones that are morally righter(this means csm(freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!) dark eldar(not as hipocrats as their cousins at least they to keep it real) and orks(nor good nor bad just pure destruction))

Lord Lucifer
28-03-2009, 00:09
What about ogrins they are quite orky
Yep, and that's why Orks, in 1st and 2nd ed., made use of Ogryns in their army list. From 3rd ed. onwards GW didn't want as much mix'n'match between the various armies so they junked the standardized weaponry and restricted some of the looser options to a few key groups.


The question of good or evil is entirely nonsensical.

Not really. The question of objective good or evil is nonsensical, but we're free to judge and apply values to everything we see. It's what we do :)

MacVurrich
28-03-2009, 00:18
Ork are not good or bad
they're just different Shades of Green :)

Brother Enok
28-03-2009, 00:23
According to bible every good guy will go to heaven or everybody who at least tries to live and let live but helping if needed
Thats not entirley true, but somthing I'd probably best not debated here...

As for good and evil, as a human I see the Imperium and its allies as good.
Orks: Not so much evil or spiteful as compelled to do violence.
Tyranids: Animals that knock us from the top of the food chain
Chaos: Tend to masacre people in the thousands because they can, as oposed to the Imperium, who do it because they must.
Tau: Join us or die. Just as bad as the Imperium, rampant fanboi says otherwise. Not spiteful, just agressive.
Necrons: Im not sure if these guys have personalties, but they ain't good.
Eldar: Arrogant beyond compare, a definate threat to humanity, if not a fickle allie at times.
Dark Eldar: Evil.

endless
28-03-2009, 00:44
Originally Posted by souljaking09
tyranids are worse because they plant their eggs inside humans. like in the "Aliens" movies.
I was just wondering whether or not this was true?
no, it's not.

the question of good or evil is entirely nonsensical.
yes, it is.

As for good and evil, as a human I see the Imperium and its allies as good.
oh, please...:p

Frep
28-03-2009, 01:45
There's no good and no evil, things are just the way they are. Anything in the 40k universe that doesn't fight dirty and act in an utterly vicsous manner is more to catch a bolt round, or face-biter squig, to the head.

0ld1eye
28-03-2009, 01:48
Dark Eldar: Evil.

Well, depraved and sadistic. 'Evil' is very difficult to pin down...

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

1) DE probably see themselves as the most moral people in the universe, from what I remember of their fluff. Also, you could say the Imperium is immoral for wanting to dominate the galaxy.
2) Definitely, but so does the Imperium. And nids, but they're a force of nature and not really evil.
3) Well, DE do tend to strike fear into planets when they appear as they portend slavery and agony. But nids do so as well, but for difference.
4) Every race in 40k is blameworthy by another.
5) This is the cruncher. DE are definitely characterised by this. Nids or crons are not. Orks, however, are definitely angry. Though you could say they're more aggressive than angry... there is a difference. They fight even when they're happy. Especially when they're happy, in fact. Or bored. Or drunk. Or sad...

Dakkabom
29-03-2009, 04:03
I consider Ghazghkull Thraka a good guy. He builds up enough strength to command numerous tribes into space, battling daemons and asteroids while setting a course to Imperial fun.

Orks can be considered the good guys just for the sake of taking down so many snobby Imperials. Even though I feel they predetermined that the Humans would win. Nex tiime dey be bigga an' stronga, boss!

Also I've seen some pretty cool quotes from the named Orks from user signatures, are those from the Codex themselves or from some novel?

souljaking09
29-03-2009, 04:20
you guys sound like a bunch of wishy washy school marms. of course there is a difference between good and evil. daemons are evil and angels are good. or how about psychos that decide to go on a killing spree for no reason. they are evil.

A1TEC
29-03-2009, 06:21
Orks just love to scab bits of other armies after they have destroyed them.

Ronin_eX
29-03-2009, 06:47
I had a longer post but in the end I just have to wonder why moral relitivism always runs so rampant in these threads. Especially when it comes down to such extreme examples as we see in the 40k background (you know the examples where moral relativism breaks down quite a bit).

Are these also people who try to rationalize rampant antisemitism through the ages? Or perhaps they defend the use of slavery in time past? Or racism? I mean, they were all normal parts of the society. Society as a whole saw nothing wrong with these things. So they weren't wrong right?

Unless you can justify the above then in hypothetical cases such as a slavering race of green monsters that loot, plunder, pillage, enslave and destroy without provocation is just as immoral as a group of humans doing the same even if they have stronger mob mentality than we do. Should the soldiers at Kent State be absolved because they were following the heard? It was like a force of nature right?

;)

Harwammer
29-03-2009, 20:18
Whats wrong with fighting? Its not like pain is all that bad, certainly it doesn't compare to the joy of a good scrap. Anyways, even if you break your body Gork or Mork will just put you into a new body so you can get into the thick of it again, right?

Nothing bad comes from fighting, just some good clean fun!

Coasty
29-03-2009, 20:27
of course there is a difference between good and evil. daemons are evil and angels are good.

Same thing, aren't they? :confused:

Brother Enok
29-03-2009, 20:38
of course there is a difference between good and evil. daemons are evil and angels are good.

So the Daemon who was kicked out of heaven for doing exactly as he was told is evil, and the Angel who casts him out, and humans after him for doing what thier creator knew they would do is good?
No, its really not that simple.

souljaking09
29-03-2009, 22:01
So the Daemon who was kicked out of heaven for doing exactly as he was told is evil, and the Angel who casts him out, and humans after him for doing what thier creator knew they would do is good?
No, its really not that simple.

If you believe daemons(which I do believe exist) are not evil, then you are lost. I hope you do not engage in satanic activity.

Col. Tartleton
29-03-2009, 22:52
This is derailed and soon to be locked I imagine.

Highlight for an off topic opinion.

And I believe in the Pagan Patheon. Judaism (thus Christianity and Islam) is simply a puritanical variant of the cult of El who was called by the Greeks Kronos. This is pointed out in the fact that he is called Elohim. He is decided by the group to be the only god worthy of worship leading them to destroy the idols to the storm god Baal Hammon or Zeus who was being worshiped with a Golden Calf (a Moloch.) This made the Jews Titanic worshipers. El was worshiped across the Mediterranean, primarily by Phoenicians. My personal theory points to him being worshiped on Crete and his bull headed death engine to be the "Minotaur" that resides in the labyrinth beneath the palace. The bull god was definitely worshiped there, and for the Cretan kings to take sacrificial youths as tribute from them every seven years. This actually makes a ton of sense. Theseus was a sacrifice but he killed the priests, escaped from the temple, and kidnapped the kings daughter.

So don't bring up Angels and Demons in a non literary manner. They're simply the various lesser immortals of Greek myth. Perhaps Hermes is shared with Gabriel and Ares with Michael. There are even references to Greek Heroes or Nephilim which are the sons of Angels and Mortals. The bible is by far a convoluted mishmash of mythologies.

On topic:

Orks are indeed awesome. They represent a good old fashioned shoot em up children entertainment. Its not violence for evil, its violence for the sake of violence, kabooms, and high speed action. Orks are chaotic but they're good.

captainramoz
31-03-2009, 01:36
I consider Ghazghkull Thraka a good guy. He builds up enough strength to command numerous tribes into space, battling daemons and asteroids while setting a course to Imperial fun.

Orks can be considered the good guys just for the sake of taking down so many snobby Imperials. Even though I feel they predetermined that the Humans would win. Nex tiime dey be bigga an' stronga, boss!

Also I've seen some pretty cool quotes from the named Orks from user signatures, are those from the Codex themselves or from some novel?
Well I see Gazghkull as unorky He spent 50 planing an invasion just to lose miserably but i see Wazdakka Gorgutz and Badruk as my orkeroes

A1TEC
31-03-2009, 06:54
There is good and bad, it just depends on what side you are on

jsullivanlaw
31-03-2009, 19:29
I hate the order/disorder designations in 40k...

Anyway, Orks can actually be seen as good guys when you look at the big picture. Orks were created by the old ones as a biological weapon to stop the necrontyr/necrons. They do what they are created to do and can been seen as the guardians of the galaxy when you look at it from a war in heaven perspective. Of course, without the old one's leadership they just try to defend the galaxy from everything which can make them "less than goodguys".

Nobody is really good or bad in 40k, they are simply what they are. Tyranids are "Evil" by devouring planets in the same why a lion is "Evil" for eating an antelope.

Dark Eldar eat souls because they need to keep Slaanesh from eating their own souls.

The imperium exterminates Xenos because they are a threat to human survival.

Chaos is what it is. Chaotic energy from the warp. Hey, it was there first.

It's all shades of gray in 40k.

captainramoz
01-04-2009, 15:09
This is derailed and soon to be locked I imagine.



On topic:

Orks are indeed awesome. They represent a good old fashioned shoot em up children entertainment. Its not violence for evil, its violence for the sake of violence, kabooms, and high speed action. Orks are chaotic but they're good.
You are my heroe always coming with reasonable thoughts
Yes that´s why i like orks they remind me to my childhood

Ranger S2H
01-04-2009, 20:04
40k, is evil evil-er evilst, and EEEEEEVIIIIL *dundunduuun*

I like the whitebloodcells theory though :P

CommissarKlink
01-04-2009, 21:30
The Universe is the body
Imperial is like a tumor
Tyranids is like cancer
Tau is like a flu
And the rest are like small antibodies


I like this idea, but here's my version

Imperium = (fairly) Benign Tumor
Chaos = Malignant Tumor
Tyranids = Necrotizing Fasciitis
Tau = a pimple
Orks = white blood cells

cotillion989
01-04-2009, 21:59
Before seeing this thread I don't think I even considered the possibility that Orks might be good guys. Consider me convinced.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
01-04-2009, 22:10
I had a longer post but in the end I just have to wonder why moral relitivism always runs so rampant in these threads. Especially when it comes down to such extreme examples as we see in the 40k background (you know the examples where moral relativism breaks down quite a bit).

Are these also people who try to rationalize rampant antisemitism through the ages? Or perhaps they defend the use of slavery in time past? Or racism? I mean, they were all normal parts of the society. Society as a whole saw nothing wrong with these things. So they weren't wrong right?

Unless you can justify the above then in hypothetical cases such as a slavering race of green monsters that loot, plunder, pillage, enslave and destroy without provocation is just as immoral as a group of humans doing the same even if they have stronger mob mentality than we do. Should the soldiers at Kent State be absolved because they were following the heard? It was like a force of nature right?

;)

There is a significant difference between moral and legal relativism. Morality is hardly universal within a given society, much less between cultures or in theoretical situations such as everyone's favorite 41st millenium. The Kent State soldiers, serial killers, etc. fall under the purview of our legal system, however. Laws are (ideally) created through general consensus to help ensure the continued survival of a civilization/organization/species/whatever and are typically designed to make no reference to morality.

So why is moral relativism so popular in the world of 40k? It's because what is or is not moral depends entirely on which race you ask. A xenos wouldn't think anything more of killing a human then you or I would swatting a fly, but from a human perspective the death of members of our species is bad. The trick is to throw off ethnocentrism and try to look at the situation objectively. Then you realize that morality has to be personal, not universal.

In case it's not obvious, I'm firmly in the "every race is simply a different flavor of selfish evil" camp. If Tau weren't so forceful and violent in their conversions they would get the "good according to Tolheim" seal, but their "convert or die" policy is no better then the Imperium's "if you aren't us, then die" policy.

On the topic of Chaos, technically anything that is evil in chaos is the result of the various species in the universe. If everyone in the galaxy would join hands, set aside war, and love one another then the warp (being a reflection of the emotions of the species in the physical universe) would spit out angels who grant immortality and cause flowers to grow everywhere.

captainramoz
03-04-2009, 22:30
So the Daemon who was kicked out of heaven for doing exactly as he was told is evil, and the Angel who casts him out, and humans after him for doing what thier creator knew they would do is good?
No, its really not that simple.
Correction the devil was quicked out of heaven the daemons are fallen companions/sons of him. Any way is quite simple follow your hetos until you die and don´t kill or betray anybody and you are good
but that has noting to do with this thread

Col. Tartleton
04-04-2009, 04:28
Like I said, with no insults intended to personal beliefs, Christianity (and thus any belief in a Satan named Lucifer) is simply an evolution of eastern Mediterranean mythology from the Greeks and Persians to Egypt and Phoenicia. All of which believed in the same gods by different names and had local stories about them, but these weren't even organized within their nations. Judaism is a derivative of the Phoenician religion where for whatever reason (perhaps actual contact with a god) those people living in that region changed their polytheism to a more simple worship of just the main god and denied the rest of the Pantheon as worthy of being their benefactor.

The Lucifer character seems to be a Zeus figure telling Cronos that Heaven is his now. However in Greek myth Zeus had Justice on his side (literally) but Lucifer did not and thus failed and is in Tartarus.

This is off topic however again. Stupid me for a lack of ability to not argue his opinion ;)

captainramoz
07-04-2009, 01:46
Like I said, with no insults intended to personal beliefs, Christianity (and thus any belief in a Satan named Lucifer) is simply an evolution of eastern Mediterranean mythology from the Greeks and Persians to Egypt and Phoenicia. All of which believed in the same gods by different names and had local stories about them, but these weren't even organized within their nations. Judaism is a derivative of the Phoenician religion where for whatever reason (perhaps actual contact with a god) those people living in that region changed their polytheism to a more simple worship of just the main god and denied the rest of the Pantheon as worthy of being their benefactor.

The Lucifer character seems to be a Zeus figure telling Cronos that Heaven is his now. However in Greek myth Zeus had Justice on his side (literally) but Lucifer did not and thus failed and is in Tartarus.

This is off topic however again. Stupid me for a lack of ability to not argue his opinion ;)
Again i'll say you are my hero.:D
Well never thought christians related to greeks:eek:
But well still christian god is a less vengeful version of the jewish one:D

druchii lord narakh
07-04-2009, 01:52
the only good xenos is a dead xenos.

here here you speek the truth brother

SirSnipes
07-04-2009, 02:20
in the grand scope of the creation by the old ones, orks are good, humans are good but royally ****ed up, eldar are good but ****ed themselves, chaos is a joke, tyranids are new and NECRONS ARE THE BADDIES

aquilius
07-04-2009, 02:35
There is a significant difference between moral and legal relativism. Morality is hardly universal within a given society, much less between cultures or in theoretical situations such as everyone's favorite 41st millenium. The Kent State soldiers, serial killers, etc. fall under the purview of our legal system, however. Laws are (ideally) created through general consensus to help ensure the continued survival of a civilization/organization/species/whatever and are typically designed to make no reference to morality.

So why is moral relativism so popular in the world of 40k? It's because what is or is not moral depends entirely on which race you ask. A xenos wouldn't think anything more of killing a human then you or I would swatting a fly, but from a human perspective the death of members of our species is bad. The trick is to throw off ethnocentrism and try to look at the situation objectively. Then you realize that morality has to be personal, not universal.

In case it's not obvious, I'm firmly in the "every race is simply a different flavor of selfish evil" camp. If Tau weren't so forceful and violent in their conversions they would get the "good according to Tolheim" seal, but their "convert or die" policy is no better then the Imperium's "if you aren't us, then die" policy.

On the topic of Chaos, technically anything that is evil in chaos is the result of the various species in the universe. If everyone in the galaxy would join hands, set aside war, and love one another then the warp (being a reflection of the emotions of the species in the physical universe) would spit out angels who grant immortality and cause flowers to grow everywhere.

QFT

Every race is going to consider itself to be "good" while considering those that oppose them (aka everyone else) as "evil".

The 40k universe is too dog eat dog for there to be "good" and "evil". It's really just a complex ecosystem where the strongst survive. Each race sees all the others as threats that are trying to prevent thier survival and thus deems everyone else as an enemy.

But then I play Daemons and believe that I am doing the whole of creation a favour when I slaughter marines. (and tau and orks ...)

Skyrir
07-04-2009, 03:30
Well, the Eldar philosopher Uthan the Perverse claims that they are the most enlightened race in the galaxy, because they know no strife.

Bassik
07-04-2009, 10:21
Actually, we as a species have a basic conception of good and evil build into us.
All these semi-philosophers telling good and evil are entireley made up by us are just spewing bogus.
In every culture on earth, no matter how isolated, humans have the same basic morals, like thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not rape, thou shalt not steal...
Its the complicated stuff we can't agree about.

And it's not just humans who show this kind of behaviour; most social animals have a kind of good/evil conception.
From an evolutionary point of view, this makes sence. Without good or evil, no society could be formed.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
07-04-2009, 19:46
Actually, we as a species have a basic conception of good and evil build into us.
All these semi-philosophers telling good and evil are entireley made up by us are just spewing bogus.
In every culture on earth, no matter how isolated, humans have the same basic morals, like thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not rape, thou shalt not steal...
Its the complicated stuff we can't agree about.

And it's not just humans who show this kind of behaviour; most social animals have a kind of good/evil conception.
From an evolutionary point of view, this makes sence. Without good or evil, no society could be formed.

Not entirely true. There are several primitive cultures who kill children who are born with any form of deformity, even today. Not only does that violate the ever biblical "thou shalt not kill", but it ends up harming children. That's a double whammy in many people's book. Similarly rape has been socially acceptable under various historical circumstances, from pillaging vikings to warring African tribes. Even in our own society we do not have absolute values for good and evil. It's bad to kill... unless you're a soldier, or you feel your life is threatened, or you are administering a lethal injection to a convicted death row inmate, or... ad nauseum.

And most social animals have a good/evil conception? Evidence please? The overwhelming majority of species operate on the might is right principle, with the strongest creature dictating what happens when and from whom. This animal keeps control until something stronger knocks it out. They kill, both extra-species and inner-species, even over something as stupid as looking good in front of other members of their own species. Other "absolute" moral values similarly deteriorate. Sure, we're all animalistically inclined to work towards our own species survival. So I suppose if you want to define morality as "doing whatever it takes to ensure your species in general and your own genetic code in particular survive" then I suppose morality is a basic fact of organic existence. But if you're going for anything lofty and selfless in your definition, then you're simply defining your personal opinion on your code of ethics, which have in turn been formed through social influences.

Evil is relative. It's true of Humans, it's true of animals, and it's true of Dark Eldar.

sydbridges
07-04-2009, 21:01
In every culture on earth, no matter how isolated, humans have the same basic morals, like thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not rape, thou shalt not steal...

Unless they're an outsider, then you should kill the men, rape the women, and steal everything they have that isn't bolted down or on fire, and smash everything that is.

That was the norm for war for a few thousand years. Older versions of the Bible in fact had God saying that when you conquered a tribe, you were to kill all the men and pregnant/old women, and divide the rest of the women amongst the troops. I can't remember the name of the group that revised that out of the Bible... started with a Z, I think? - apparently as society's morality evolves, so must God's.

Anyways, 'Rape is bad' is depressingly a rather modern concept.

MrMojoZ
07-04-2009, 22:24
In every culture on earth, no matter how isolated, humans have the same basic morals, like thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not rape, thou shalt not steal...
Its the complicated stuff we can't agree about.

And it's not just humans who show this kind of behaviour; most social animals have a kind of good/evil conception.
From an evolutionary point of view, this makes sence. Without good or evil, no society could be formed.

Exactly, thats why there is no war, slavery, human sacrifices, crime or rape present in any culture throughout history. Or maybe everything you said is wrong. An example: animals don't conceptualize they react, there is no good/evil invovled.

captainramoz
08-04-2009, 22:33
My ethos is even simpler thou salt follow your duty(being a good guy)

Axel
09-04-2009, 11:00
Good is what benefits a society, ie any action that yields more then it costs.
Bad is whatever costs the society more then it yields to others.

From a personal view, "others" or "society" are often not considered part of the equation, so whats good for a person can be bad for the society. Whats good for part of the society can be bad for the whole. Whats good for humanity can be bad for life. The concept is always subjective.

Orks are "bad" for all those who are unorky. Perhaps they are good for the universe, as designed by the Old ones. We will see how they react to Chaos, Necrons and Tyranids when these manage to gain some real impetus. The Orks certainly help to keep the Imperium in check.

Gutted
09-04-2009, 12:13
Actually, we as a species have a basic conception of good and evil build into us.
All these semi-philosophers telling good and evil are entireley made up by us are just spewing bogus.
In every culture on earth, no matter how isolated, humans have the same basic morals, like thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not rape, thou shalt not steal...
Its the complicated stuff we can't agree about.

And it's not just humans who show this kind of behaviour; most social animals have a kind of good/evil conception.
From an evolutionary point of view, this makes sence. Without good or evil, no society could be formed.

Umm no. That isn't how people, cultures or societies work. Theft, murder, beatings and worse have been pretty standard practices for humanity since the dawn of recorded history. What you identify as an in built recognition of good and evil is more likely to be basic selfish survival instincts (certain stuff is bad when it happens to you or those that influence you because it lowers your chances of survival) rather than any concept of objective or divine good/evil.

htj
09-04-2009, 12:41
Cannibalism is seen as taboo in most societies but to early man it was a a sensible survival tactic.

RichBlake
09-04-2009, 12:49
There is an argument to be made that in a universe of terrifying genocidal races (not least of which is the Imperium itself), the Orks are probably the best of the lot. At least they're not going to eat any parts of you, whether it be your soul or your flesh, or try and possess you, or make you subservient to their Greater Good. Or burn you at the stake for being a witch.

That said, there's no-one really 'good' in 40k.

Orks do eat human flesh AFAIK. Especially if theres nothing else to eat.

There isn't really a good side in 40K though you're right. This is why I prefer Order and Disorder. It fits more, though arguably the Necrons should be classed as "Order" as if everything is dead or a machine there will be plenty of order...


The Orks definitely fall into the 'Disorder' side of the 40k spectrum.

Simple because the words "Orks" and "Orderly" don't go into the same sentance without being connected by the words "are not".