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Kaihlik
25-03-2009, 14:06
This came up yesterday (althought it ended up not mattering). I overran executioners into some orks then got flank charged. Because the executioners have great weapons they should go last but the way the always strike first FAQ is worded makes me uncertain (I know its not the same but the bypassing thing just makes me unsure). I think they probably still go last but I wouldn't mind hearing what other people think.

Sorry if this has come up before.

Kaihlik

nosferatu1001
25-03-2009, 14:24
Chargers go first, they dont have "ASF"; if both have charged (and neither have ASF) then you move to initiative, then D6 if equal.

As far as I am aware GW do not override this

narrativium
25-03-2009, 14:31
First, impact hits. Second, ASF based on initiative and D6. Third, chargers. Fourth, anyone else, based on initiative and D6, unless they have great weapons. Fifth, great weapons, on initiative and D6.

stripsteak
25-03-2009, 14:35
nosferatu101 is correct the page reference if you are curious is pg 43 in the pursuit into a fresh enemy section. last paragraph

Kaihlik
25-03-2009, 15:16
What do you mean by GW dont overide this, do you mean that they do go straight to initiative and thus GW are ignored or you take the GW into consideration at the move to initiative stage (which is how I think it works).

Thanks for the replys.

Kaihlik

nosferatu1001
25-03-2009, 18:26
The initiative step totally ignores any "strikes last" affect from Great WEapons. Simply compare init values on your stat line.

narrativium
25-03-2009, 18:28
If two units in combat both have Always Strikes First, and the higher initiative one has great weapons and the other doesn't, the one with great weapons attacks first.

Kaihlik
25-03-2009, 18:45
@ Narrativium I know how ASF works but I am not talking about that, I am talking about 2 units that count as charging one with a GW the other without,the ASF rules were just what made me think that it might not work the way I thought it would.

@ nosferatu1001 - Right thats not the answer I was expecting tbh. The reason being that the way the strike last rule is worded is that any time the bearer uses Initiative he strikes last (from the weapon rules) I thought ASF would override that because it explicitly states it does whereas charging does not afaik.

Im still not convinced either way yet so if anyone has anything to add please do.

Kaihlik

Kalandros
25-03-2009, 18:57
Executioners (without ASF BSB) overrun into Orcs.
Another unit flanks the Executioners.

Flanker goes first
Executioners then attack
The charged Orc unit goes last.

Kaihlik
25-03-2009, 19:54
@Kalandros - Thats how I think it works but im looking for actual rules. What you are saying directly contradicts what Nosferatu1001 says, as in his interpritation the Executioners go first (highter Ini), then the flankers, then the charged orcs.

Kaihlik

theunwantedbeing
25-03-2009, 20:44
I've answered this before...
Page 45 of the rulebook.
Bottom paragraph.

Using kalandros' example as an example of how it actually works (sorry kalandros, your wrong on this)

Executionairs (without ASF BSB) overrun into Orcs.
Another Orc unit flanks the Executionairs.

Executionairs go first (charging, in5)
Orcs flanking go second (charging, in<5)
Charged unit goes last.

I'de like to point out that this is how is has worked since the start of 6th edition.
(something I was unaware of for a lot of 6th edition)

Kaihlik
25-03-2009, 20:59
Could someone summerise what it says in the bottom paragraph of pg 45 as I dont have mine on me atm? Also are you remembering the Strikes Last rule which says that any time Initiative is used then they strike last? I am not doubting you here but without the rulebook I dont know what you are refering to.

Kaihlik

Kalandros
25-03-2009, 21:25
Ah right because the Exec's Strikes Last is completely ignored since they ARE on the charge. So they go by Initiative against the Flankers which are also charging: thus Initiative is used and nothing else (unless there is ASF/ASL involved of course, but thats just complications ;p )

The only execption to this situation is for Empire Detachments: Their rule state they strike before the opponent they have flanked, so it ignores Initiative but doesn't ignore ASF.

So..

Execs charge Swordsmen, detachment of halberd declares countercharge.
Fight goes
-Halberdiers
-Execs
-Swords




But reading 'Strikes Last' I'm still wondering if this is accurate (for the Initiative with great weapons). Because it says 'will always strike last where they would otherwise strike in Initiative Order'. ... so... I'm not sure now!

nosferatu1001
26-03-2009, 06:38
NO - if you have charged you ignore "Strikes last" entirely

As has been stated repeatedly - you use the basic initiative value on your profile, and nothing else. It is exactly the same as when two ASF units meet - you go straight to initiative values ignoring any weapon rules like "strike last"