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Dranthar
26-03-2009, 07:27
As per the title, how feasible is it to make a Warriors of Chaos army without any maraulders (horsemen included!).

I ask this because I not at all a fan of the models, and I'm trying to put together a low-model count list, both for eliteness and speed-painting.

I realise that Maraulders of both varieties are very useful and horsemen in particular seem to be a standard fixture in most WoC lists. But If I can do without them, I'd certainly like to try.

As an example, here is the sort of 2000pt list I was thinking about;

Chaos Lord or Sorcerer Lord (~400)
Sorcerer (~190)
5 Knights (~260)
12 Chaos Warriors (~240)
12 Chaos Warriors (~240)
12 Chaos Warriors (~240)
2x5 Hounds (60)
Hellcannon (205)
Spawn (55)
(~150pts left)

So yeah...you really can't get much in a WoC army without Maraulders. :rolleyes: But is this the sort of list that can actually work? I'm not talking ultra-competitive, but at least capable of putting up a fight.

Tizz
26-03-2009, 07:38
It'll put up a fight for sure especially if you make it right, maybe toss a second/third sorceror in there or second unit of knights for more support

Sirroelivan
26-03-2009, 09:38
I think so, the advantage is that all your units are dangerous, they all have the potential of dealing out serious damage.
Maybe include an Exalted Hero on a Steed of Slaanesh / Disk of Tzeentch to give you some extra mobility and for warmachine / skirmisher hunting.

_Kalas_
26-03-2009, 09:46
Maybe include an Exalted Hero on a Steed of Slaanesh / Disk of Tzeentch to give you some extra mobility and for warmachine / skirmisher hunting.

that's true, rework your characters, as Sirroelivian said, disc/steed of slaanesh exalted is almost a must, You really need something to deal with skirmishers, marchblockers,warmachines.
Think about small unit of forsaken, they fit the theme, and some people find them handy.
Two big units [18] of warriors instead of 3 small is imho a better idea, and you've saved some points as well.

Pichamorena
26-03-2009, 10:31
Take another spawn. They're good for protect flanks. A spawn can resist a light cavalry charge, or small units of skirmishes.

W0lf
26-03-2009, 11:33
You will want at least 8 PD and a BSB in an army like this to stand a chance of putting up a strong fight.

Good luck. Warriors are over-priced as hell.

spriten
26-03-2009, 12:24
I really like my horsemen, and the marauders are an easy and cheap way (pts-wise) to get some much needed static combat res.

But If I were you, I would at least have 2 spawns, they always do the trick for me (last Sunday, one unmarked spawn held a black coach for 4 turns:D)

And I would get at least one more wizard, some Nurgle regeneration would help your expensive units.

Dranthar
26-03-2009, 12:59
Merging the Warriors into 2x18 would be great, except that you'd still need a 3rd Core choice to fulfil minimum requirements. In any case, a lack of maraulder units means that you really need to invest quite abit into your core selections.

So I guess the impression I get is that such a list would certainly work, but something is still needed to deal with skirmishers and light cavalry.

Thinking about it, wouldn't a Sorcerer on a Chaos Steed be able to fulfil the role as a skirmisher/war machine hunter? With the barded steed he's got a 2+ armour save, and for a spellcaster, he's no slouch in combat.

Just an example;
Chaos Sorcerer - Mark of Tzzentch/Nurgle, Lvl 2, Chaos Steed, Stream of Corruption/Blood Curdling Roar, Warrior Familiar, Book of Secrets - 221

So for a nominal loss of magic proficiency you've just made yourself a character capable of harassing your opponents flanking units and even standing up in combat against some of them.

Looking again at the above list, I suppose I would downgrade the Chaos Lord to two heroes (probably an Exalted and a 2nd Sorcerer), then spend what remaining points there are on boosting the Chaos Warriors and hopfully adding another Spawn.

snottlebocket
26-03-2009, 13:31
I'd bring a lot more hounds, they'll help prevent you from being outmanouvred by pestering enemy movement.

One or two war shrines might be useful to, if you intend to have such slow expensive units slog across the field they're going to need every buff they can get. Just roll until you get something protective, then reroll once they make it into combat for something offensive.

Zoat
27-03-2009, 09:51
I'm working on a list along the same lines and I have to agree with the above posters on two accounts:

1) Bring another unit of knights.

2) You have to deal with skirmishers/warmachines. 3-4 turns of good shooting is enough to erase this army...


Having played a few games I'd like to add some personal reflections:

1) 2 unit of hounds just give archers something to shoot at. If you want them add more!

2) Warriors are really good, but in this setup they don't get to pick their fight. In the end they often end up in lost close combats (enemy characters, flanked, etc)

Though I really like the visual effect of my all Warriors army I'm starting to believe that it is too weak to take on all opponents. Especially gunlines and very mobile armies (woodies, tomb kings). Hopefully there will be some good ideas in this thread to try out!

Bauhaus86
27-03-2009, 09:53
I was planning to post a thread like this soon myself! The spawn are definitely a good idea. I plan to use at least two.

Other than that, I am looking at a couple of ways to make the army work;

1. As others have suggested here, characters on fast mounts would be very useful. Also, some magic defense is needed so I was planning to field three Sorcerors on discs, one level 4 and two level 2's (my army has a tzeentch them if you couldn't guess...)

2. I have been reading the Tactica:Minimalism thread and it has piqued my interest. So I was thinking about fielding just one character. I like the background of Kholek and have an idea for a conversion. You could go even further and field only a hero level character. Warriors, Chosen and Knights already have high leadership so don't need a lot of help from a general. A BSB would be useful however, so maybe two hero level characters would be good. The advantage or this is you could then field a lot more of the "elite" models. Here is an example of what I had in mind (just a points summary):

Kholek 605
12 Chaos Warriors 204
12 Chaos Warriors 204
10 Chaos Warriors 172
12 Chosen 305
5 Chaos Knights 200
5 Chaos Knights 200
2 Chaos Spawn 110

Of course, many things could be changed or improved. But I like the idea of how this army will look on the table and I also think it will still be reasonably competitive in friendly games.

grimhorn
27-03-2009, 10:49
Hello!

As I see it the main disadvantage for you with your latest list is that your army is divided into to seperate sections, cavalry and footsloggers.
The cavalry units risk a defeat on their own and have to hold back until you can charge simultaniously with the footsoldiers.
I myself play an all out cavalry CoW-army and my main focus is to get as many simultanious charges as possible as soon as possible. By dividing your army as you have done you loose time, aka you can't safely charge in round 2 and be certain of winning. your footsloggers though hardhitting and cool take to long marching across the table to get into the fray.

Another concern I have is the size of your footunits. I know you plan on allways charging, **** sadly happends! As with empiresoldiers... numbers wins the day. So maybe ditch a unit in favor of beefing up the others?

Well thats my two cents anyway.

/ Grimhorn.

Havock
27-03-2009, 10:49
You will want at least 8 PD and a BSB in an army like this to stand a chance of putting up a strong fight.

Good luck. Warriors are over-priced as hell.

It's more a problem with M4 infantry becoming less viable beyond a certain pts limit barring certain builds.

the Engineer
27-03-2009, 15:56
Though I agree that marauder models suck they are cheap. I have considered running large blocks of them(they are better than goblins afterall)

Any considerations to how this might work?

Kburn
28-03-2009, 00:42
someone posted in the WoC tactica thread of a list that placed 2nd in a tourney, link is here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3406263&postcount=1852

Also, like others have said, get super powerful/irritating sorcerers and hide them in your warriors, so that people will come to you. Also, try to squeeze some space for 1 more unit of knights.

I hope you'll do well, warrior heavy lists are hard to find, but they're definately the most beautiful ones, model-wise

TheDean04
28-03-2009, 04:07
150 pts. left....... loose the spawn add second hellcannon. I have been using a 2 hellcannon list for the last few weeks and its just mean!

Zoat
28-03-2009, 20:07
Ok, time to get a bit more constructive!

Building a no-marauder army means you are stuck with 3 blocks of Warriors, so the first thing to decide would be to decide size and equipment of these. My personal preference is:

12 warriors, halberd+shield, std, mus

This block costs roughly 250 pts depending on banners and marks. Which means 750pts consumed.

In addition I like to have 2 unit of standard knights with banner. These also cost about 250pts, which sums up to 500.

So far 1250 pts spent on a core of 5 really good close combat units, leaving 750 pts for characters and support.

What do you think?
Is the core army optimal, or do you prefer another configuration?

I'm not done with the support units, but I'm thinking warhounds and characters. Any suggestions are welcome!

Jericho
28-03-2009, 20:15
The list that kburn posted a link to did well in that tourney, I don't know if it got 2nd! It didn't do well overall since it wasn't painted either. It did score some pretty impressive wins against some tough opponents, but I haven't heard back on the specifics of who Jordan played and beat with that army yet.

Zoat
28-03-2009, 23:06
True, that army was successful, but it does include marauders. Granted, it is only a single cheap unit, but it still breaks theme.

j-k-martin
29-03-2009, 07:05
Marauder horsemen are probably your most point effective and versatile unit. I can see a list functioning without walking marauders but the horsemen seem essential. You can of course technically make a list without them, but handy capping yourself like that is pretty harsh. If you are set on your theme then by all mean, build the army you enjoy playing, that's what is important. Just know you are limiting your strategy.

Dranthar
29-03-2009, 22:37
12 warriors, halberd+shield, std, mus

This block costs roughly 250 pts depending on banners and marks. Which means 750pts consumed.

In addition I like to have 2 unit of standard knights with banner. These also cost about 250pts, which sums up to 500.

So far 1250 pts spent on a core of 5 really good close combat units, leaving 750 pts for characters and support.

I think you're on the right track, although I'm still not entirely sure about the size of the warrior units. That said, with such an expensive army there may not really be any other choice.

For Characters we can probably assume around 200pts per hero, or 400 for a Lord (this is probably an over-simplification but I don't have the army book at this point). I think magic-heavy is the best approach for this army, since you ideally need your opponent to come to you, not the other way around.

At the very least then, I'm thinking two sorcerers and an Exalted. An alternative is to take the approach of my initial list - a Sorcerer Lord and a Sorcerer. It's more magic power but while Sorcerers are unusually capable in combat, even a Lord doesn't match up to an Exhalted.

For the remaining 150pts I'd say invest in Warhounds and Spawn - maybe 1 Spawn and 3x5 Hounds?

Back to the "Core", I keep wanting to swap a unit of knights for a hellcannon and a spawn, but ultimately I think 2 knight blocks is the most tactically sound approach. Perhaps the Hellcannon can come in at 2250. ;)

j-k-martin: I totally agree. Horsemen seem to be an excellent unit for a WoC army. Not taking them is a handicap but as you say, I/we're going for a theme here. :rolleyes:

j-k-martin
30-03-2009, 06:34
I think that you are right in your assesment that motivating your opponent to come to you is essential. However, I think that's goigng to require at least one hell cannon. Two lvl2 mages aren't fun, but if I'm an army with any kind of shooting, that isn't goign to motivate me to move out of my deployment zone. Your going ot need to bring some serious ranged fire power if you want to bring any high elf, dark elf, dwarf or empire player out of their starting area. Otherwise your just going to get bolt throwered and hellblastered for the 5 turns its going to take you to get to the enemy lines. Sadley your best anti gunline unit is Wulfrick (spelled it worng I'm sure) but with enough long range fire power you might be able to force the aformentioned armies out of hideing.

PeG
30-03-2009, 09:35
Also include enough hounds to do something useful. WE with some magic defence would shoot that list to pieces without any close combat. Multiple units of hounds will give them a few fast targets to shoot at while giving the other units some time to advance across the board.

Although you have good armour saves it is still not going to be good enough. On an open board they will focus their fire which with the list I am often playing against means that one unit is going to get hit with HoD (3D6 S4 hitting on 2+), 24-36 S3 hitting on 3+, 3 S3 no armour saves hitting on 2+ on turn 1. Every turn after that is the same with exception of the HoD. Depending on the target (probably a unit with yor lord or a wizard in it) and the saves that unit will get they are still likely to do enough damage to make that unit to small to be efficient and to small to protect a character in. With some march blockers and S4 in close range not many units will get into charging range and when you charge they will flee.

If you dont have an open board it probably means lots of woods and that is going to mean a lot more short range shooting ie S4 and still not very many more charges unless you want your knights stuck in a wood somewhere.