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ToXiK
26-03-2009, 14:48
how powerful would these units be if GW decided to bring them back?

Bookwrak
26-03-2009, 14:49
Better than Abbadon.

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 14:52
The apocalypse datasheet for Angron caused some fuss for not being as powerful as people thought. Of course, he's a daemon prince primarch, so that might have raised expectations.

Roachcoach
26-03-2009, 14:58
They could never match the fluff. Marines already dont but this would take it to new extremes.

Industrial Propaganda
26-03-2009, 15:10
Best post I've read about Primarchs basing on actual rules from Codex Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and the official Apocalypse Angron datasheet.


His statline is perfectly inline with my personal Primarch calculations (ignoring Movie Marine bs of course - anyone expecting Primarches being all 10s is living in fantasy land). As I see it a Primarch is to a Space Marine, what a Space Marine is to a regular human. Though to give it heroic focus it's more along the lines of "a Primarch is to a Chapter Master (Marneus, Azrael etc), what a Space Marine is to a human". So in general plus one to each stat

SM Chapter Master (Marneus, Azrael)
WS5 - BS5 - S4 - T4 - W4 - I5 - A4 - Ld10

Primarch (standard unaugmented statline - suitable for say Roboute or the Lion)
WS6 - BS6 - S5 - T5 - W5 - I6 - A5 - Ld10

Then say if you want a more exotic statline for say Sanguinius you just take Dante's statline (seeing as it contains the same point count as Marneus and Azrael, just the stats are arranged differently) and add one to each.

Dante
WS6 - BS5 - S4 - T4 -W3 - I5 - A4 - Ld10

Sanguinius
WS7 - BS6 - S5 - T5 - W4 - I6 - A5 - Ld10


You then follow it through that the logic would also apply for the Daemon Primarches who would instead of being compared to a Chapter Master would be compared to a regular CSM Daemon Prince

CSM Daemon Prince
WS7 - BS5 - S6 - T5 - W4 - I5 - A4 - Ld10

Daemon Primarch
WS8 - BS6 - S7 - T6 - W5 - I6 - A5 - Ld10

Then you augment according to particular character IE Angron combat monster (+2WS +1A). See perfectly fair.

Nero
26-03-2009, 15:19
I'd put the Primarchs somewhere slightly below the strength of a greater daemon. That includes Daemon Primarchs. Of course, greater daemons vary in strength depending on their summoning...

As a baseline though, I'd say S5, T5 and 5 or 6 wounds/attacks for a Primarch.

EDIT;

Or what Heru Talon said. Bang on.

Roachcoach
26-03-2009, 15:28
Those statlines make primarchs almost weaker than carnifexes or about on par with a hive tyrant. Would make no sense whatsoever. The emperor conquered the galaxy with 20 primarches and their offshoots, care to take a stab at how many tyrants and 'fexes a hive fleet has?

Basically, see my fluff post above - some things are better left out of the game design. I admit, much of the game rules and stats would raise an eyebrow in the context of "fluff", but primarchs have been made out to be so....'out there' in terms of power (Sanguinius snapping a bloodthirster over his knee, as an example) its just not possible to represent them accurately within the constrains of the system at hand.


To bastardise someone elses post I read recently, there's not enough depth in 40k's stats to represent how these guys are meant to be (that includes marines fwiw).

Hellebore
26-03-2009, 15:33
Add in a 3+ invulnerable save and eternal warrior and they don't NEED uber stats of fanwank to win.

EDIT: Primarchs are effectively daemon princes of the emperor. As a daemon prince already has a statline WS7 BS5 S6 T5 W4 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+/5+ (with eternal warrior) then a primarch in the game should have a similar stat line. A daemon primarch is like stacking a daemon prince onto a daemon prince, and what stats are 1 up from a daemon prince? A greater daemon. thus statwise a primarch should match a daemon prince and a daemon primarch should match a greater daemon. Give each of them a Relic blade and they're all hitting with S7 attacks, more than enough to kill the things they were mostly fighting.

Just because they were never killed in the story of the heresy until another primarch did it doesn't make them indestructible gods, any more than John Maclane is indestructible.

There also were no tyranids around at the time the primarchs existed. The majority of their enemies were orks and rebellious humans. One does not become a mighty champion because they've slaughtered 10,000 peasants with bamboo sticks.

Hellebore

Roachcoach
26-03-2009, 15:39
Its not about "winning" for me, just grates so badly against any and all background its completely silly to me.

What can I say :)


Be like putting an emperor titan in there with AV15 all round and a normal damage chart, yeah it'll kick ass in game and everything but its just so wrong to me I cant condone it, basically.

Nym
26-03-2009, 15:46
Sanguinius snapping a bloodthirster over his knee, as an example

That's where the problem lies. 40k fluff is completely OTT most of the time, and no limits are imposed on the writers.

That's why in one book you have a big ork nearly kill the Emperor, and on next book one Space Marine single-handedly slaughters a whole waaagh.

First the show, then realism. Unfortunately, that means it's impossible to ever match the fluff and the game.

Roachcoach
26-03-2009, 15:58
Yup, I just think some things are best left to peoples imagination :)

Hellebore
26-03-2009, 16:10
I don't think it grates against the background at all. They weren't immortal, they could die, and they were made from human genes and human flesh. Human flesh will burn, it will cut, it will die. The only thing they had going for them was warp energy fortifying them. Just like a daemon prince.

you might as well complain about everything in 40k, because none of it represents the background properly. A carnifex should never be killed by 30 guardsmen in combat. It should kill 5 guardsmen with every sweep of its giant claws.

The Avatar, being 1800 C, would ignore all laser shots, flame, plasma, melta, and take less damage from solid shot weaponry, because it would melt and disintergrate before it struck.

Bloodthirsters shouldn't be gunned down by rapid firing bolters.

Eldar should never show up, and if they do they were fated to win anyway because the Farseer killed a mosquito that would have bitten a guardsman who would have contracted space malaria, who would have gone insane and shot his commanding officer, who would have been sentenced to a penal legion who would have been dropped onto an ork infested world with the penal legion who would have tripped over and blown his head off during the battle where an ork would have sliped on his brain puddle and sprayed his burna all over the trukk nearby whose driver would have jumped from it on fire and let the trukk careen out of control and run into a stompa which would have fallen over and shot its mega gatler which would have destroyed a mob of gretchin except one who would have legged it for the rear lines but would have stepped on a land mine which would have sent his leg flying up the nose of the warboss who would have choked on the gristle and died which would have caused the waaagh! to crumble which would have freed the imperial crusade from fighting the orks which would have allowed an eldar garden to get trampled by an ogryn squad three sectors over. And so the eldar won before the battle began.

So either some level of abstraction must be accepted, or everything in the game is inadequate (chainswords don't just tear things to pieces when they strike?)


Hellebore

OrlyggJafnakol
26-03-2009, 16:11
Why do you think that the primarchs are all dead, vanished or in stasis? They don't fit within the structure of the wargame. As for Angron, it was my understanding that the further he travels from the Eye of Terror the weaker he becomes. Hence his stats in Apocolypse. If you want to game with the Primarchs, invent your own stats.

Perhaps if GW produced a wargame set during the Horus Heresy (like dear old Space Marine was) with a different game mechanic with the Primarchs keyed in from the start it could work!

Frontier
26-03-2009, 16:24
I liked the stat line that was posted a little earlier from Heru Talon. I mean, the Primarchs were Gods of the battlefield, but they do need a realistic stat line for the game. They shouldn't be impossible to kill. Nothing in this game is.

I think it would be interesting to play-test some different ideas to see what works well.

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 16:27
Matching to the fluff is going to be impossible because the fluff isn't consistent. In Nightbringer, a squad of like fifteen Dark Eldar poses a major threat to a squad of Ultramarines - in Brotherhood of the Snake, one Space Marine takes on a small army of Dark Eldar alone. Which would you match to? Should one space marine be balanced against at 1500 point Dark Eldar army, or should they be nearly equivalent? Or orks. Again, taking Brotherhood of the Snake, a squad of the main character fight, like, most of a camp of orks. In one of the Horus Heresy novels, a single ork nearly chokes the Emperor to death. Which should it be? Should an ork warboss be equivalent to the God-Emperor in stats or should a squad of space marines be equivalent to an ork army? Should a squad of space marines be equivalent to an army of Chaos Marines, since that's a common setup in the novels?

GW goes for the best answer - when writing the rules, more or less ignore or tone down heavily the fluff and work things out so the armies generally 'feel right'. The fluff isn't consistent, and people will latch onto the fluff they like the most (which is why you have people totally convinced that space marines should be stated like Movie Marines) while ignoring any fluff which makes their particular interpretation look silly.

Brother Loki
26-03-2009, 16:35
Head on over to the Tempus Fugitives site and look at their Great Crusade campaign pack. They've created a nice set of rules for all the known Primarchs for the campaign at Warhammer World in May, as well as a bunch of other familiar characters form the Horus Heresy books.

pookie
26-03-2009, 16:58
Hellbore hs imo the closest to what a Primarch should be.

x-esiv-4c
26-03-2009, 17:06
Here it comes, all the "PrIAMARCHS ARre the besTeSt!"

Perhaps Sanginius broke a bloodthirster over his knee (we are going by dated fluff (therefore squats still exist :D )) but it's hard to imagine a primarch besting something like a tooled up carnifex.

Rirekon
26-03-2009, 17:11
With regards to "fluff accuracy" don't forget that as far as GW/BL is concerned fluff pieces are the stories, legends and myths of the 40k Universe - as such they're all equally accurate and inaccurate at the same time.

pookie
26-03-2009, 17:21
Here it comes, all the "PrIAMARCHS ARre the besTeSt!"

Perhaps Sanginius broke a bloodthirster over his knee (we are going by dated fluff (therefore squats still exist :D )) but it's hard to imagine a primarch besting something like a tooled up carnifex.

why? if a SW Wolf Lord can, why cant a Primarch?

Poseidal
26-03-2009, 17:23
Following the flawed logic that Sanginius broke a Bloodthirster on his knee, an Avatar did the same to a Keeper of Secrets who's approximately equal to a Bloodthirster...

Since Marneus Calgar uppercutted an Avatar, that infers that Marneus Calgar > Sanginius.

QED

Ganymene
26-03-2009, 17:26
Here it comes, all the "PrIAMARCHS ARre the besTeSt!"

Perhaps Sanginius broke a bloodthirster over his knee (we are going by dated fluff (therefore squats still exist :D )) but it's hard to imagine a primarch besting something like a tooled up carnifex.

Don't worry, I'm sure the fanbois are going to "imagine" it all over this thread. :rolleyes:


I also agree that Primarchs should have stats comparable to a Demon Prince with a few tweaks here and there. They shouldn't be the ultimate in killing machines, they should just be super Marines. Their power level should be somewhere in between Marine Chapter Masters and Greater Demons, with the Demon Primarchs being in line with Greater Demons.

Triggerdog
26-03-2009, 17:31
why? if a SW Wolf Lord can, why cant a Primarch?

Exactly

I dont see why anyone still talks about this although it really is a generic sort of noob question. Primarchs would make no sense in 40k for a variety of reasons. You have the fact that none of them are really around anymore and then you have the fact that if they did have rules they would be totally rediculous. Like Pookie pointed out a space wolf lord can drop a carnifex (easily at that depending on how he's equipped *cough* mark of the wulfen and a frost blade *cough*). Heck an IG commander with a powerfist can do it if he's lucky enough. A Primarch, to be remotely accurate to their background, would have to be able to take Carnifexes like a Space Wolf Lord can take Termagaunts.

So you have the issues of time frame and that even in most Apocalypse games they would be overpowered beyond imagining.

Poseidal
26-03-2009, 17:36
So you have the issues of time frame and that even in most Apocalypse games they would be overpowered beyond imagining.
Yet there are other models that have feats similar to those of Primarchs and have somewhat lacklustre stats.

pookie
26-03-2009, 17:37
Exactly

I dont see why anyone still talks about this although it really is a generic sort of noob question. Primarchs would make no sense in 40k for a variety of reasons. You have the fact that none of them are really around anymore and then you have the fact that if they did have rules they would be totally rediculous. Like Pookie pointed out a space wolf lord can drop a carnifex (easily at that depending on how he's equipped *cough* mark of the wulfen and a frost blade *cough*). Heck an IG commander with a powerfist can do it if he's lucky enough. A Primarch, to be remotely accurate to their background, would have to be able to take Carnifexes like a Space Wolf Lord can take Termagaunts.

So you have the issues of time frame and that even in most Apocalypse games they would be overpowered beyond imagining.

my point is actually that Ragner has done it in the Fluff, which, is where people get there 'stats' on uber Primarchs from.

i would like to state for the record, im happy that they will never be in the game.

SimonL
26-03-2009, 17:40
So you have the issues of time frame and that even in most Apocalypse games they would be overpowered beyond imagining.


I think "beyond imagining" is a bit OTT, considering we can imagine stats for giant walking robots with cannons the size of school buses. ;)

I believe the abilities of the Primarchs should be reflected more with skill stats and special abilities rather than Str 10, T10, W10, etc...

A Primarch should not be (unless your stuck in 2nd Ed on "scatter whole armies") stronger than a carnifex, but he should be able to carve it apart relatively easily in CC using martial prowess and a nifty weapon.

Roachcoach
26-03-2009, 17:46
Perhaps I'm being unclear:

I'm no primarch fanyboy or owt, and yes, fluff has been consistantly inaccurate in innumerable instances except where they are concerned. They've never been portrayed as anything but virtual gods. Its probably the one consistant piece of fluff out there :)


Sure, they were mortal, and sure they could die. But I struggle to think of a death at the ends of something other than an 'equally powerful' being , the closest I can remember is alpharius letting the assassin kill him. Even in the biggest fanboy (or true to fluff, pick one) 10v1 space marine novels, they still take losses to elementary troops etc. I dont recall anywhere a primach being stabbed to death by a bunch of angry guardsmen, for instance ;)

BeatTheBeat
26-03-2009, 17:55
I agree with SimonL, many aspects of the primarchs' "awesomeness" should be represented in special rules and equipment, not stats. As he said, a primarch isn't as strong as a carnifex, but should definitely kill it anyway.

Joezombie
26-03-2009, 18:00
Well, fluff is just that tall stories. Anybody that shows up in fluff is gana be exaggerated. You can't expect any of the main players in a story to stick to realism even outside of warhammer (ie. hobbits in loftr).

The game can never match the fluff as Guardsmen players would go bankrupt, Eldar players would just state "I win" and so on. GW designed a game thats balanced (I use this term very loosely).

I believe the Primarch to Marine as Marine to Human approach is quite adequate. Really, when has that one heroic marine defeated your opponents entire army, and its not everyday that a CHAPTER MASTER dies in battle as it happens so often on the table top

Thanatos_elNyx
26-03-2009, 18:04
snip...
Those are pretty reasonable stats.

Strong but not so strong as to be game breaking, because if you went with the fluff they would all have stats of 10 and a special rules that says "You win"

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 18:06
the closest I can remember is alpharius letting the assassin kill him.

Kurze/Night Haunter, actually. Alpharius was (allegedly) killed by Guilleman.

And it is generally accepted that the Emperor was an equal to the Primarchs? And an ork warlord nearly choked him to death?

There is no consistency. There is only what makes for a heroic story. The Primarchs being like unto gods of battle makes for a heroic story, but if the story was about regular Space Marines, they'd be doing the same feats. And if it was about Guardsmen, they'd be doing the same feats. And if it's about Chaos Marines, they'd be doing the same feats, but with more evil.

SimonL
26-03-2009, 18:06
I'm no primarch fanyboy or owt, and yes, fluff has been consistantly inaccurate in innumerable instances except where they are concerned. They've never been portrayed as anything but virtual gods. Its probably the one consistant piece of fluff out there


Sure, they were mortal, and sure they could die. But I struggle to think of a death at the ends of something other than an 'equally powerful' being , the closest I can remember is alpharius letting the assassin kill him. Even in the biggest fanboy (or true to fluff, pick one) 10v1 space marine novels, they still take losses to elementary troops etc. I dont recall anywhere a primach being stabbed to death by a bunch of angry guardsmen, for instance


The issue is that nothing in the game matchs the fluff. Outnumbered Grey Knights get crushed by daemons, 10 Space Marines can't hold off 1000 Dark Eldar, an Avatar can't defeat entire Ork armies by itself, etc.

Conrad Kurze lets M'shen kill him, albeit with a C'tan phase sword, possibly one of the most lethal CC weapons available. Horus ges beat by a daemonified regular human with a fancy knife.

The reason they don't get stabbed to death by guardsman is plot armour, not being invincible. It's not cool to have your epic characters die...hence why the vast majority of the Gaunt's Ghosts characters are still alive after a dozen books. You don't see unarmoured Guardsman with ultra stats because fluff makes them heroes.

Roachcoach
26-03-2009, 19:15
Kurze/Night Haunter, actually. Alpharius was (allegedly) killed by Guilleman.

Yeah that's the one. Mixed them up.


I know nothing matches the fluff, but equally no disparity would be greater than letting primarchs walk the field of battle.


Actually, didnt the chaos ones have rules in old school Epic? iirc they were about as powerful as warlord titans then...but that was a long, long hazy time ago.

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 19:23
I know nothing matches the fluff, but equally no disparity would be greater than letting primarchs walk the field of battle.

Other than Avatars. And C'tan.

Roachcoach
26-03-2009, 19:30
Iirc avatars variable depending on the king/prince involved, which account for the....oh....first ed, I think it was, random statline.

My C'Tan is rusty - aren't they much like the avatar and fragments of themselves encased in living metal? Cant remember how they get there though. You're right about them however, they're also deeply wrong.

narrativium
26-03-2009, 19:36
How long was the fight between Sanguinius and the Bloodthirster? I hear people use the story as an example of the Primarchs' superiority but all it tells me is who won, not how easy or hard the victory was.

Poseidal
26-03-2009, 19:45
Iirc avatars variable depending on the king/prince involved, which account for the....oh....first ed, I think it was, random statline.
The lower limit on the random statline was still pretty much better than any human mighty hero though... and he got D4 Exarch powers on top of this... AND never took more than 1D4 wounds (which is a big deal when Lascannons did 2D6 wounds).

Roachcoach
26-03-2009, 19:46
I couldnt see any copyright notes on the fluff bible so here's an excerpt:


Three times the horde managed to scale the walls, and three times it was driven off by the valiant efforts of Sanguinius and the Blood Angels. Wearily the Primarch marshalled the defenders, rallying the broken, speaking words of comfort to the mortally wounded, fighting with cold, implacable fury when he was called upon to do so. Slowly though, despite his efforts, the Chaos forces managed to erode the defence. They seemed numberless as the grains of sand on a sea shore and Horus spent their lives carelessly.

<snip>



Both sides sensed the end was near.

Eventually Sanguinius was forced to retreat to within the palace itself, personally holding the Ultimate Gate against the oncoming horde while the last of his wounded men was carried through. Just as the giant ceramite gate was about to close a Bloodthirster of Khorne leapt upon him. The daemonīs huge talons closed around his throat. Sanguinius took to the air. Angel and daemon wrestled over the warring armies. Both sides halted for a moment to watch the titanic struggle. It was a conflict such as has been rarely seen; two beings of awesome power wrestled.

Sanguinius was weary and near the end of his strength and the daemon gouged great wounds in his flesh. The heretical throng roared its approval as the Primarch was cast to the ground, the impact splintering the granite. For a moment the Primarch lay still and a groan rose from the Blood Angels, the daemon stood over him and howled in exhultation. Then slowly and painfully the Blood Angel rose and seized the creature, raised it high and broke its back across his knee. Then with a halo of power playing round his head he tossed its broken carcass back amid its followers. They beat their chests and rent their hair and wailed in dismay as the Ultimate Gate shut.

Reads like quite a rukus, although the actual BT battle seems brief with the BT gaining the upper hand at first over a battle weary Primarch who still had enough in him to win the fight. One can only imagine a fit Primarch would've found the fight rather less tricky. Granted though, its reads kind of like whomever authored it had an "oh crap moment, how can he recover to fight horus" and filled the gap with "and he kicked his ass and it was good" type of writing :)

Industrial Propaganda
26-03-2009, 20:19
Those are pretty reasonable stats.

Strong but not so strong as to be game breaking, because if you went with the fluff they would all have stats of 10 and a special rules that says "You win"

Those are just the basic stats. I didn't mention it in my post but Heru Talon also said you should add them special abilites.

Oh and Sanguinius got his ass kicked by the Bloodthirster the first time he meet it on Sigma Prime.

bevulf
26-03-2009, 20:53
I would be dissapointed if i could see a statline for the primarch - for me they are legends and I refer to them just as it. They are like distant gods, with countless victories on their accounts, unmeasurable deeds...i think that if GW would bring them on the battlefield (except already given DP Angron) it would destroy their fluff and perception.

Heimlich
26-03-2009, 21:02
When Marneus Calgar killed the avatar it only had 1 more wound left! Get your facts straight.

Dictator
26-03-2009, 21:30
Just because they were never killed in the story of the heresy until another primarch did it doesn't make them indestructible gods, any more than John Maclane is indestructible.


Hellebore

You don't know it, but you just referenced TWO Bruce Willis movies

Hlokk
26-03-2009, 23:09
uber stats of fanwank
Best. Phrase. Ever.

To be honest, This is always going to be an issue which devides people, because from a fluff point of view, they should be able to bitchslap through 1000 points a turn, if you believe the stuff in the HH books. Game balance wise, I see them being similar to how C'tan are now, daftly powerful and stupidly expencive, but not too powerful to have people whinging about it.

SimonL
26-03-2009, 23:21
Everyone seems to forget about that other Sanguinius story where he gets pulped by the same Bloodthirster he later kills, at the Battle of Signus. Then the same Bloodthirster rather casually kills 500 Blood Angels will departing...

So the "breaking Ka'bandha across his knee" was if anything lucky...He must have rolled many 6's and the Bloodthirster whiffled some armour saves :D

Roachcoach
27-03-2009, 00:29
To be honest, This is always going to be an issue which devides people, because from a fluff point of view, they should be able to bitchslap through 1000 points a turn, if you believe the stuff in the HH books. Game balance wise, I see them being similar to how C'tan are now, daftly powerful and stupidly expencive, but not too powerful to have people whinging about it.


Precisely, which is why some things are best left out of the game :)

Yes, I include C'tan in that assessment.

ToXiK
27-03-2009, 11:09
Thanks ,guys i just wanted to see what everyone thought on this as with the story moving on with the golden thrown breaking down and the loyalist saying they would return when they were needed this seemed to be the next step in the story imo. The bloodthirster who Sanguinius fought both times was the top greater daemon of khorn iirc according to collected visions dont have the book on me atm will check when i get home

Askari
27-03-2009, 13:11
I go by the line "Primarchs are to Space Marines what Astartes are to humans"

So why are they too powerful for tabletop again?

Humans S3 T3
Space Marine S4 T4
so by logic...
Primarch S5 T5?


The emperor conquered the galaxy with 20 primarches and their offshoots, care to take a stab at how many tyrants and 'fexes a hive fleet has?

Of course, it was just the 20 Primarchs... nothing to do with the Imperial Navy fleets, hundreds of thousands of Astartes organised into Legions not Chapters, millions of Imperial Army regiments.
Besides, what does the number of Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes have to do with anything?

Finally, concerning the "Sanguinius beat a Bloodthirster over the knee"

Well... Fulgrim beat an Avatar, but barely.
Marneus Calgar beat an Avatar, after it took some beating from his mates.
a 100 Grey Knights beat Daemon Angron and 12 Bloodthirster buddies.

So Primarchs aren't that much more than a Chapter Master are they?

pookie
27-03-2009, 13:53
Well... Fulgrim beat an Avatar, but barely.
Marneus Calgar beat an Avatar, after it took some beating from his mates.
a 100 Grey Knights beat Daemon Angron and 12 Bloodthirster buddies.

So Primarchs aren't that much more than a Chapter Master are they?

MC beat a Avatar using two Power fists of unknown design from the DaoT, Fulgrim beat the avatar with his bare hands.

and as for Angron, they were reduced iirc to 25 (or less ) GK before they managed to banish Angron, so i dont think your analagy quite works, and only managed this with the sacrifice of more GK's and the GK Captain. so YES Primarchs are that much harder than a Chapter Master.

Roachcoach
27-03-2009, 14:02
I go by the line "Primarchs are to Space Marines what Astartes are to humans"

So why are they too powerful for tabletop again?

Humans S3 T3
Space Marine S4 T4
so by logic...
Primarch S5 T5?


Space marines and human stats are too close in 40k. Limitations of the system - quite simply put the differences between human and marine cannot be accurately shown with a single stat point difference when the max is 10. These existing limitations are not a reason to make further instances of horribly wrongly stat lined units.




Well... Fulgrim beat an Avatar, but barely.

My memory might be faulty, but...wasnt that with his bare hands? The avatar of a god encased in molten metal so hot melta and plasma weapons tickle him. With his bare hands. Lets see any marine hero have a pop with a bare knuckle fight, see how he gets on.


Edit: It bears repeating - I am no primarch fanboy, I just firmly belive some things are best left the hell off the tabletop. Norn queens, dominatrix, C'tan fall into this list as well. I know C'tan are here, but that doesnt mean they ought to be, lets learn from that walking example of nonsense shall we?

Poseidal
27-03-2009, 14:25
Space marines and human stats are too close in 40k. Limitations of the system - quite simply put the differences between human and marine cannot be accurately shown with a single stat point difference when the max is 10. These existing limitations are not a reason to make further instances of horribly wrongly stat lined units.
That's not true. The 40k stat system is not linear;

A Dreadnaught is S6/S10 and includes basically a large strength industrial claw. These, in contemporary technology, are many many many time stronger than a human or any animal alive and so S6 is not 'twice' as strong as a man.

Humans and Marines are not too different, in fact it's probable Marines and Power Armour are over represented in the current system, not under.



Default Re: in game primarchs
Originally Posted by Askari View Post
Well... Fulgrim beat an Avatar, but barely.
Marneus Calgar beat an Avatar, after it took some beating from his mates.
a 100 Grey Knights beat Daemon Angron and 12 Bloodthirster buddies.

So Primarchs aren't that much more than a Chapter Master are they?
MC beat a Avatar using two Power fists of unknown design from the DaoT, Fulgrim beat the avatar with his bare hands.
AFAIK, Fulgrim 'strangled' it.

Roachcoach
27-03-2009, 14:31
That's not true. The 40k stat system is not linear;

A Dreadnaught is S6/S10 and includes basically a large strength industrial claw. These, in contemporary technology, are many many many time stronger than a human or any animal alive and so S6 is not 'twice' as strong as a man.

Humans and Marines are not too different, in fact it's probable Marines and Power Armour are over represented in the current system, not under.



You're right about the stat line not being linear, but only in isolation, the in game effect is linear (for the most part).

The dreads claw is represented by doubling the S value - its only 10 because that's the cap.

Humans and marines are meant to be massively different, almost every time their mentioned in the same sentence, marines are prefixed with "superhuman". How much of that is armour and how much is physical enhancements it up for debate however.

Mouldsta
27-03-2009, 15:08
The steps of strength go up in pretty big bounds though; with 3 being a decent sized and trained human and 6 being a creature the size of your house made of armour and teeth.

As has been said the fluff is the heroic tales, when all the best things happen - when that earthshaker shell lands on a squad of marines wiping them out but the librarian comes striding out of the blaze with a prayer to the emeror on his lips it's not because he should be T7 with a 2+ inv, it's because he rolled 6 for his going to ground test.

Thanatos_elNyx
27-03-2009, 17:41
Those are just the basic stats. I didn't mention it in my post but Heru Talon also said you should add them special abilites.

Of course, it wouldn't be just the stats that make them special.

Just look at the stats of an Archon vs a Necron Lord and you would think easy victoy for the Necron but equipment and abilities can swing the fight in a big way.


Though I find it strange that Horus's weapon of choice was "only" L.Claw with a bolter glued on.
That same weapon pales in comparison to Abaddons other beat stick Drach'yen.