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View Full Version : Necron Warriors and the new Assault Rules



Sttucker13
26-03-2009, 19:20
I'm getting back into playing, yet to play my first 5th edition game. I've noticed with the new assault rules and being able to run in the shooting phase, that it looks like my warriors with their rapid fire weapons will get at most 1 volley off on most other infantry units before they are then promptly annihilated in an assault. Is that pretty accurate? And are there any efficient tactics to giving my most numerous unit choice more time to "get shooty"? I can see scarab swarms being sent forward to stop 1 inch infront of the enemy to make them assault them first, but then I hand them a 4+ cover save for shooting past my own units. Is that a correct interpretation of the rules?

Again, I've been away since 3rd edition so I'm not sure I understand the new rule set well enough to plan efficient tactics.

Captain Micha
26-03-2009, 19:25
that's pretty accurate.

Field Wraith.... two squads. and if you weren't before you -will- be fielding Scarabs.

Azhrarn
26-03-2009, 19:26
Keep in mind that sweeping advance and consolidating into a new combat are not possible. So even if your opponent charges a unit in say, turn 2, they can at most slaughter that one unit and then stand there looking pale as your entire army levels their gauss blasters at them.

Tau have similar issues (and even worse weaponskill, armor save and toughness) and can do quite fine. Your necrons are still equal to space marines in terms of stats aside from initiative, you'll be just fine. It may take a little more thought than before, but nothing you can't overcome.

kultz
26-03-2009, 19:35
More small squads.

More eggs, more baskets.

Sttucker13
26-03-2009, 19:37
Field Wraith.... two squads. and if you weren't before you -will- be fielding Scarabs.

You're right, I never bothered with scarabs in 3rd edition as they seemed only like an option to fill an army list to the required point limit -- though Im seeing more uses for them now. But why the second unit of Wraiths? Does it help significantly that they got rid of the outnumbering rules?

So Azhrarn do you feel a multi-tier phalanx would be effective then, where warrior squads of larger size are kept 12 inches behind their smaller counterparts on the march across the board? Or has the slow and steady phalanx tactic no longer valid after the changes to gauss?

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 19:40
I'd be a bit surprised at using two squads of wraiths, since with those and the requisite squad of scarabs, you've now filled up all of fast attack without taking any destroyers, which can be quite good at either shooting things or acting as fire magnets, depending on your playstyle and how well your opponent knows the army.

Captain Micha
26-03-2009, 19:43
You're right, I never bothered with scarabs in 3rd edition as they seemed only like an option to fill an army list to the required point limit -- though Im seeing more uses for them now. But why the second unit of Wraiths? Does it help significantly that they got rid of the outnumbering rules?


Yeah they are much stronger than they were before thanks to no outnumbering anymore. There's also the issue of them being only good for popping MEQs or dedicated to Assault units unless there's 5-6 (in my opinion) of them.

Destroyers to me are worthless as they do -nothing- to cover up your weaknesses in assault. Where as Scarabs and Wraith do this very well in comparison to even a C'tan. (and for less pts I might add, while Raising your Necron count)

I've always used scarabs before they were just good tarpits. now they make -great- tarpits and stand a good chance at killing whatever you've sicced em on if it's not a dedicated Assault unit.

But you need about 5 Wraith to be fielded I think before they really start doing damage. and they are stupidly durable. This also makes sure they'll have WBB if there is no Tomb Spyder nearby if they assaulting the same unit. (remember the Orb does -not- by pass the proximity rule only the Tomb Spyder does this)

Also you might want to consider Tomb Spyders if you have not already. They let your deployment get a little more flexible and can also help in CC. -never- use them to build more scarabs though.

Grimtuff
26-03-2009, 19:43
But why the second unit of Wraiths? Does it help significantly that they got rid of the outnumbering rules?

1: Wraiths are one of the best tankbusting units Necrons have ATM.
2: Surely you've played Necrons long enough to know that 2 Necron units of the same type are more than twice as valuable as a single unit. ;)

Sttucker13
26-03-2009, 19:47
1: Wraiths are one of the best tankbusting units Necrons have ATM.
2: Surely you've played Necrons long enough to know that 2 Necron units of the same type are more than twice as valuable as a single unit. ;)

Haha, I SHOULD know that, but as someone else was saying its now a decision between a Destroyer squad and a second squad of Wraiths if I'm going to be fielding scarabs. Honestly, I don't know that I can do without my Destroyers -- of course the changes to Gauss screwed them up quite a bit so maybe I wont find them nearly as useful this time around. Used to be that I didn't even use Heavy Destroyers, just ran 5 Destroyers behind any vehicle I wanted dead and went PEWPEW until I shut it down.

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 19:48
Yeah they are much stronger than they were before thanks to no outnumbering anymore. There's also the issue of them being only good for popping MEQs or dedicated to Assault units unless there's 5-6 (in my opinion) of them.

Destroyers to me are worthless as they do -nothing- to cover up your weaknesses in assault. Where as Scarabs and Wraith do this very well in comparison to even a C'tan. (and for less pts I might add, while Raising your Necron count)

I've not had much luck with wraiths in the past actually winning assaults. Perhaps I've just had poor dice rolls - they have however been incredibly durable tarpits, which is always nice.


I've always used scarabs before they were just good tarpits. now they make -great- tarpits and stand a good chance at killing whatever you've sicced em on if it's not a dedicated Assault unit.

Same here, I've always fielded at least one squad of scarabs. Hold them near the warriors, and use their whole jetbike speed to assault the first thing to get within 18" of my warriors that I would rather have spend the rest of the game killing scarabs. Haven't had much luck with them actually wiping units out, but then I usually send them after dedicated assault units to keep them busy for the rest of the game.

Azhrarn
26-03-2009, 19:48
So Azhrarn do you feel a multi-tier phalanx would be effective then, where warrior squads of larger size are kept 12 inches behind their smaller counterparts on the march across the board? Or has the slow and steady phalanx tactic no longer valid after the changes to gauss?

No idea if the slow-and-steady phalanx would still work, I'd imagine that it would perhaps be a little less effective than before (given that you basically need monoliths or destroyers/heavy destroyers for heavier vehicles now). But the idea itself is probably still sound, you're still very hard to kill.

And your Monoliths became even stronger, making them real headaches for your opponents. (no more vehicle destroyed result on glancing hits makes the living metal on a monolith an absolute nightmare to get through)

I play daemons myself, which are very different in terms of tactics, so I'm probably not really the right person to ask for tactical advice. ;)

mattnaik
26-03-2009, 19:51
Destroyers to me are worthless as they do -nothing- to cover up your weaknesses in assault.

Embrace the fact that you are a shooty army and go with it.

I cant tell you how many rhinos I've popped with my destroyers. a maxed squad gives you 15 S6 shots at 36". Pop them from the back you got a penetrating hit on a 5+ and glancing on a 4.

Sttucker13
26-03-2009, 19:53
And your Monoliths became even stronger, making them real headaches for your opponents. (no more vehicle destroyed result on glancing hits makes the living metal on a monolith an absolute nightmare to get through)


I hadn't considered that the same rule that nerfed gauss actually made monoliths that much better. Seems rather ironic. Guess I'll **** off a ton of people when I field both of mine (for some reason, even in third edition, people I played with tolerated one monolith but a second one was considered cheese)

As far as tomb spiders, would you take them for CC only (meaning with the second claw as opposed to the particle cannon?).

With not being able to fire into close combat, what good does a scarab tarpit do? It seems like I'm just taking a unit that will kill me on turn 3 and making them wait until turn 4 to do the job. Or do you assault them with scarabs and then bring the Tomb Spiders into the assault as well, or Wraiths?

Captain Micha
26-03-2009, 19:53
Slow and steady -can- still work -if- you have Heavy Destroyers. And no Destroyers.... Destroyers don't cut the mustard for Anti tank anymore and were never that hot at popping heavy Infantry and given how much cover there is that is 4+ the Destroyer's shots are honestly kind of a waste of pts. Instead of Destroyers Field Immortals.

The Wraith won't let you down. Heck mine even act as enemy Fire Magnets because everyone fears their assault power. They always seem to last several turns worth of being fired upon my things like 12 shot Tyrants, sniper fexes, Fire Dragons, and the list just goes on and on. At the very least Wraith act as Firesoaks that the enemy will far exceed your pts value worth of Wraith using heavy guns into to destroy them.


Embrace the fact that you are a shooty army and go with it.

I cant tell you how many rhinos I've popped with my destroyers. a maxed squad gives you 15 S6 shots at 36". Pop them from the back you got a penetrating hit on a 5+ and glancing on a 4.


That kind of attitude is why most Necron players can't win right now actually. You need good Assault power in 5e. That's why I run my Lord with a Lightning field (you determine the L Field based on wounds not saved wounds) and Warscythe. Plus glancing on a 4 isn't impressive, especially when transported units can still get out reliably, and pen on 5 is nothing period. You are much better off using Heavy Ds for killing vehicles.

Grimtuff
26-03-2009, 19:55
I cant tell you how many rhinos I've popped with my destroyers. a maxed squad gives you 15 S6 shots at 36". Pop them from the back you got a penetrating hit on a 5+ and glancing on a 4.

Wraiths can do it much more efficiently though in 5th ed. Moving as Jetbikes and ignoring all terrain whilst striking the rear armour of any tank they charge with 12 S6 attacks for a full squad has its advantages. :)

Sttucker13
26-03-2009, 19:55
I'm hearing alot about the prevalence of 4+ cover saves. I'm apparently missing the reason why this is so common in 5th. Would someone please enlighten me as to why cover saves happen so much more frequently?

Grimtuff
26-03-2009, 19:58
I'm hearing alot about the prevalence of 4+ cover saves. I'm apparently missing the reason why this is so common in 5th. Would someone please enlighten me as to why cover saves happen so much more frequently?

Rulebook page 21 ;)

mattnaik
26-03-2009, 19:59
I'm hearing alot about the prevalence of 4+ cover saves. I'm apparently missing the reason why this is so common in 5th. Would someone please enlighten me as to why cover saves happen so much more frequently?

cause intervening models offer a 4+ cover

Captain Micha
26-03-2009, 19:59
Grimtuff beat me to it.

wow beat twice...

Sttucker13
26-03-2009, 20:01
Rulebook page 21 ;)

Haha, you laugh but having come back to a game that is two editions further along than when I left it, and only recently discovering a local place to play, I'm kind of getting a crash course in everything that's changed since I was away.

mattnaik
26-03-2009, 20:02
Wraiths can do it much more efficiently though in 5th ed. Moving as Jetbikes and ignoring all terrain whilst striking the rear armour of any tank they charge with 12 S6 attacks for a full squad has its advantages. :)


I'm not seeing how its more efficient, it negates possible cover, but destroyers can move as jetbikes, get 3 more S6 shots in a full squad, and do it at 36" AND they can do it on a 3+ to hit.

I can see it being more efficient if the vehicle didnt move last round but when was the last time you assaulted a full rhino that didnt move the previous turn?

Captain Micha
26-03-2009, 20:04
I'm not seeing how its more efficient, it negates possible cover, but destroyers can move as jetbikes, get 3 more S6 shots in a full squad, and do it at 36" AND they can do it on a 3+ to hit.

I can see it being more efficient if the vehicle didnt move last round but when was the last time you assaulted a full rhino that didnt move the previous turn?

one reason, you -might- not be able to move your Destroyers enough and still shoot that turn, unless of course it's deadly cargo is already unloaded. In which case popping the Rhino is pointless anyway. It's not like Destroyers can outflank. If they could I'd say they have merit compared to the wraith, but they don't. (Destroyers can't outflank btw) with the wraith you -will- be able to move them close enough to lay a beat down on the vehicle. You also get 12 (3 Wraith.. heaven forbid you have 6) attempts versus 9 with a comparable amount of pts Destroyers. Also if you set your Wraith up right, if the enemy is forced to disembark and can't they are destroyed automatically by the wraith being in the way. (I think? Someone correct me if I'm wrong there but I remember reading this)

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 20:10
Hrm. I think I'll be trying a second squad of wraiths. Like most of the necron minis, I rather like the models (hate how easily the tab seems to break off), and I could always give the destroyers a break.

mattnaik
26-03-2009, 20:14
one reason, you -might- not be able to move your Destroyers enough and still shoot that turn, unless of course it's deadly cargo is already unloaded. In which case popping the Rhino is pointless anyway. It's not like Destroyers can outflank. If they could I'd say they have merit compared to the wraith, but they don't. (Destroyers can't outflank btw) with the wraith you -will- be able to move them close enough to lay a beat down on the vehicle. You also get 12 (3 Wraith.. heaven forbid you have 6) attempts versus 9 with a comparable amount of pts Destroyers. Also if you set your Wraith up right, if the enemy is forced to disembark and can't they are destroyed automatically by the wraith being in the way. (I think? Someone correct me if I'm wrong there but I remember reading this)

Well popping an empty rhino in a KP is not pointless but thats a whole entirely different argument ;)

I guess i can see the merits of wraith, but to say that destoyers are useless is a bit of a stretch. I think it depends on your play style.

The new emergency dismebarkation rules make it a little harder to kill a unit by blocking its access point

Captain Micha
26-03-2009, 20:15
I started out with just 3 and soon found myself addicted to them... they mowed down Banshees and Dire Avengers in their debut night. I couldn't see myself ever looking back at my hideously under performing Destroyers again. Most I've killed with my Destroyers.


4 Fire Warriors

2 Rangers

4 Dire Avengers

Shaken a Fireprism -shooting it's rear armor-

my Immortals -never- disappoint me infact I've taken up a second squad of them and they are all the better for it.

Immortal kill tally thus far

One squad of Guardians, In one round of shooting

Two Squads of Fire Dragons (on two different occasions) one round of shooting, and one in being Assaulted

1 Full Load of Fire Warriors who thought they were gonna be cute and FOF me. One round of shooting

1 Non Fish Fire Warrior squad two rounds of a Five man shooting into them

Stunned Fireprism.. four times in one game with just one five man squad.

Weapon Destroyed a Falcon in two games. Five man squad.

All but killed a Wraithlord. Five man squad

Wiped out a squad of Noise Marines. Five man squad


Wraith got even more fun with two squads of hilarious I6 Str 6, Frag grenade jetbike like movement no difficult terrain (or dangerous terrain) test death.

You don't get the Rhino's Kp until the squad it was dedicated to is dead I'm afraid. Which is another reason to field Wraith. They disembark and end up in assault against your Wraith. (at worst) best case they are simply destroyed by the wraith.

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 20:17
The new emergency dismebarkation rules make it a little harder to kill a unit by blocking its access point

Especially since, IIRC, the Rhino has like three disembarkment points - it'd be tricky to make a three model squad cover all three points. Of course, if you've got two squads, you can probably cover all the exits.

Sttucker13
26-03-2009, 20:19
Does anyone else find this "true line of sight" junk in 5th edition to be ridiculous? Like I recall using green felt in odd shapes to be trees on our previous game table. You could shoot out if you were within 2" of the edge, etc, etc. Now It seems like if you want trees to provide actual line of sight blockage, they've got to be realistically modeled, and if you can still see a bit of a thigh through the foilage, it's still only a 4+ cover save? Am I reading these correctly? Did they basically want to completely do away with blocked line of sight?

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 20:19
I started out with just 3 and soon found myself addicted to them... they mowed down Banshees and Dire Avengers in their debut night.

I think in my debut battle with Wraiths, they greatly inconvienced a squad of Khorne Berserkers for most of a game. That was basically the theme since then - not a lot of slaughtering, but a whole lot of inconviencing.

Perhaps I just roll poorly with them. I tend to do well on the WBB and invulnerable saves for them, though.

mattnaik
26-03-2009, 20:26
Does anyone else find this "true line of sight" junk in 5th edition to be ridiculous? Like I recall using green felt in odd shapes to be trees on our previous game table. You could shoot out if you were within 2" of the edge, etc, etc. Now It seems like if you want trees to provide actual line of sight blockage, they've got to be realistically modeled, and if you can still see a bit of a thigh through the foilage, it's still only a 4+ cover save? Am I reading these correctly? Did they basically want to completely do away with blocked line of sight?

at first i did, because i did the exact same thing as you in 4th. the green sheet of paper was trees and the blue was water..etc. It's now forced us to model more realistic scenery and the game is so much more immersive now. Plus it prevents a skinny line of trees completely blocking line of sight. its more realistic now i think

Captain Micha
26-03-2009, 20:28
sydbridges Exactly even if they are just tarpits they'll do just fine. They make great tarpits vs dedicated assault units (better than scarabs who you want to keep away from Dedicated Assault Units as much as possible), and they absolutely slaughter everything else I've found.

They do wonders against Banshees since they still get a 3+ save and have T4 and -will go first- after the first round of combat (assuming the banshees were not already engaged in combat with something else. if they were ooooo boy you get to slaughter them before they can hit back cause you'll get your charge!)

They were able to tie up Khorne Bezerkers that should tell you how good they are. Your Warriors or for that matter anything else in the codex would have simply died like a whimpering school girl in less than two rounds of assault.

sydbridges
26-03-2009, 20:32
They were able to tie up Khorne Bezerkers that should tell you how good they are. Your Warriors or for that matter anything else in the codex would have simply died like a whimpering school girl in less than two rounds of assault.

I was playing against a world eater army at the time, so I found that out, as well. Fortunately, it was 3rd ed, so it wasn't too hard to play the "jump out with the monolith and shoot the hell out of them" game.

Grimtuff
26-03-2009, 20:54
They do wonders against Banshees since they still get a 3+ save and have T4 and -will go first- after the first round of combat (assuming the banshees were not already engaged in combat with something else. if they were ooooo boy you get to slaughter them before they can hit back cause you'll get your charge!)

They were able to tie up Khorne Bezerkers that should tell you how good they are. Your Warriors or for that matter anything else in the codex would have simply died like a whimpering school girl in less than two rounds of assault.

Yup, accompany them with a Destroyer Lord with a Warscythe and Res Orb and you're set. My 2 Wraith squads do pretty much the same.