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Whitesox
26-03-2009, 19:19
Ok i play VC and was wondering what fellow VC players use against the lizards..

In particular Im struggling vs the following at 2.5k games

a bttl stnd slann with
becalming cogitation
focused rumination
curse charm of tepok
cupped hands
these are always included, some other items are mixed and matched

leading 21 temple guard
with war banner

2x2 lvl 2 skink priest on EoTG

Scar Vet with
Charm of Jag Warrior
Great Weapon
bane head

my vc lord is redudant on the casting side, i even struggle to cast IoN, the closest i have came to beating this list is including 2 blood knight units and a CC orientated list

so how would you deal with it?

fer
26-03-2009, 19:23
not sure about other folks, but as a lizzy player myself that looks like a rather chinzy list with the 2 eotg there...

what is the rest of the buildout he is using for his core troops? gotta be something like 3 core of skink skimishers or something cheap...

Malorian
26-03-2009, 19:28
Against lists like these you are better off with combat vamps.

Wraiths won't stand a chance and the temple guard and spear saurus will kill faster than you can raise.

You can still have a magic heavy lord, but keep the bunker back so you can stay out of the range of becalming cogitation. Then suit up the vampires to fight (dreadknight infinite hatred).

If you get in range of one of those EotG race out those dread knights and aim everything at the priest. Once he is dead the engine is no more and you can safely move up your troops.

Don't bother with deathstars. Those salamanders and the slann's fire magic will just roast it.

Whitesox
26-03-2009, 20:16
he normally includes
2x14 (2 ranks of 7) saurus with spears and musician
1x10 Skink skirmishers
Some Terradons
and either salamanders or razordons

nothing weak in his list, i've tried a gg deathstar but it didnt work

fer
26-03-2009, 20:34
throw enough hits at this stegadons and they will fall down, and you have a chance of taking out the character and rendering the mount ineffective as well

the slann is a tarpit inside all those temple guard and he can always keep up the 5+ ward against shooting and still be able to work one of the other effects..

I guess your real hope is just taking down those stegadons and hard as you can...they are 3+ armor save so you have a decent shot at wounding with enough attacks against it

mine get chopped up so no reason his can't

that slann is a tarpit though, dealing with that is a nightmare

dsw1
27-03-2009, 05:32
Kill the priests on his EOTG and you get full victory points for it (or so I was told) so killing 1 should give you a minimum of 390pts without any magic items equipped. The best way to do this is Close combat, blood knights will munch it up easily, so why not try that? Give them that combo of regen, frenzy and the other one a vamp in the unit with the Blood drinker and you're good to go (munch through his army :D)

As for the Temple guard unit with the slann in it, you'd need to get multiple units into it with staying power and killing power, say a unit of Grave guard or two? Shooting it to death should also work (fat chance with the vamps), or you could just ignore it and spend your time killing the rest of his army then Combo charge it with everything you have left?

Once you kill the Eotgs, your magic will get much better (target the one with the Diadem first), even with your main guy losing 6s. Enough magic will get through to create a tarpit unit that can hold the Temple guard long enough.

Also, try multiple (2/3) Corpse carts with Bale fire, this will be brilliant against a slann.

I hope this helps.

Spirit
27-03-2009, 12:11
Kill the priests on his EOTG and you get full victory points for it (or so I was told) so killing 1 should give you a minimum of 390pts without any magic items equipped. The best way to do this is Close combat, blood knights will munch it up easily, so why not try that? Give them that combo of regen, frenzy and the other one a vamp in the unit with the Blood drinker and you're good to go (munch through his army :D)
Kill the priest and you get VP for the priest. Only wounds on the stegadon (i.e not ANY of the skink crew) count as wounds for it. So to get half vp on a steg, you need to do 3 wound to the stegadon.

As for the Temple guard unit with the slann in it, you'd need to get multiple units into it with staying power and killing power, say a unit of Grave guard or two? Shooting it to death should also work (fat chance with the vamps), or you could just ignore it and spend your time killing the rest of his army then Combo charge it with everything you have left?

Agreed, a varghulf in the flank gives temple guard a maximum 5+ save, good for killing and holding them up.

Once you kill the Eotgs, your magic will get much better (target the one with the Diadem first), even with your main guy losing 6s. Enough magic will get through to create a tarpit unit that can hold the Temple guard long enough.
Agreed, remember an EOTG cannot refue a challenge on its own, so charge a vamp with a great weapon into it, 3+ to hit priest and 2+ to wound with a 6+ save, he will be dead in no time. Killing blow also an option.

Also, try multiple (2/3) Corpse carts with Bale fire, this will be brilliant against a slann.
I dont like corpse carts, for 200/300 points you could get a lot of things that dont just give the slann -2/3 to cast. But thats personal opinion really.

I hope this helps.

I would imagine that there is not much the temple guard could do against blood knights. Frenzy is a problem, but they will kill what they hit and he seems to have very litte that can re direct them.



hope i help also!:)

Edit: Just looked at the list again, and i think the answer to your problem is a zombie dragon. Vampire with a lance (5 point magic item) infinite hatred (both vamp and dragon get hatred) red fury and beguile. Then 2+ save and 3+ ward vs shooting.

This should kill a stegadon per turn no problem.

replace the balefire lance with blood drinker sword if you are worried about not getting wounds back. Itl still munch stegadons.

I dont see anything in his list bar the slann that can touch this vampire. And if you think it's cheezy remember your fighting 2x EOTG AND a slann. So your just fighting fire with fire.

Dokushin
27-03-2009, 13:21
Careful with the Blood Knights -- Terradons and Skinks will bait them around, Salamanders will eat them up (S3 -3AS) and Razordons do two artillery dice per model S4 shots on a stand and shoot.

Temple Guard are going to have a 2+ save and are essentially unbreakable (cold-blooded stubborn 8 bsb). Even if you can chew them it's going to take 3 or 4 turns at least, with double engines ruining your day.

I agree that what you need to deal with is the Engines and then the Slann. It's going to be hard to stop his magic with Carts, as one of the Engines can drop the casting costs by 1, and the Slann can have a power that adds an extra power die to every cast.

A fighty Vampire on Dragon can eat Engines pretty well, but if you whiff, they're stubborn cold-blooded 6 and you could easily get pitted. Also, with double engines, his main vulnerabilities are going to be dragons and cavalry, so expect him to be taking Lore of Beasts. You want to definitely dispel Beast Cowers, and try to stop Wolf Hunts and Hunter's Spear if you can.

But yeah, try a lord on Dragon. LM armies in general have real trouble dealing with dragons (and I speak from experience, lol).

Shamfrit
27-03-2009, 14:16
Vampire
Infinite Hatred, Avatar of Death (GW.)
Battle Standard Bearer
Talisman of Lycni (Flayed Hauberk/Enchanted Shield depending on Avatar.)

Do Wristbands of Black Gold work against any ranged?

Add other equipment to suit, now go and hunt Engines, killing the priest with 3 guaranteed to kill a priest attacks more or less.

Even with outnumber vs. no wounds (Flayed Hauberk is a must...) the Battle Standard will negate the crumble wound.

slingersam
27-03-2009, 16:24
Ya it sucks, that lizardmen have hardley anyway of dealing
with very high toughness (6+) Also remember he just
put around 1600 points on just heros and temple gaurd
unit. Destroy the engines, and ignore the Slann + Gaurd
until the end, since they are slow. Kill the easy VP core
units, And when everything else is destroyed, Take what
ever is left and charge him all in 1 turn. It may not be easy
to break him but it shouldn't be imposible. The thing you have
to worry about is the slann's casting and dispelling abilities,
which may be an annoyance

Spirit
27-03-2009, 16:41
Careful with the Blood Knights -- Terradons and Skinks will bait them around, Salamanders will eat them up (S3 -3AS) and Razordons do two artillery dice per model S4 shots on a stand and shoot.


I agree with most of that, but not razordons.

Remember that if one of the dice misfires, the model doesnt shoot that turn. So 3 in a unit, 6 misfire dice, one is going to misfire.

This leaves you with 2 razors left. Lets say they roll maximum shots, so 40 (this is still above the average even if none of them misfire)

This leaves you with:
14 hits (rounding up the average)
7 wounds
say 2 dead blood knights (now we are WAY above average)

So for 2 blood knights, youve just killed 225 points of a unit. I would make a B line for them with the blood knights. Simply because they cannot run from you (they have to stand and shoot)

And don't forget you can put your entire magic phase into bringing back the 2 knights (even the slann cant roll above you EVERY time on dispell)

Dokushin
28-03-2009, 03:24
I agree with most of that, but not razordons.

Remember that if one of the dice misfires, the model doesnt shoot that turn. So 3 in a unit, 6 misfire dice, one is going to misfire.

This leaves you with 2 razors left. Lets say they roll maximum shots, so 40 (this is still above the average even if none of them misfire)

This leaves you with:
14 hits (rounding up the average)
7 wounds
say 2 dead blood knights (now we are WAY above average)

So for 2 blood knights, youve just killed 225 points of a unit. I would make a B line for them with the blood knights. Simply because they cannot run from you (they have to stand and shoot)

And don't forget you can put your entire magic phase into bringing back the 2 knights (even the slann cant roll above you EVERY time on dispell)

Let's analyze: Barbed Razordons vs. Blood Knights.

First, Barbed Razordons take neither stand and shoot penalties nor long range penalties. On a stand and shoot they are hitting on 4s. So if (as in your example) they fire 40 shots, they would hit with about twenty.

Now I was curious about how many shots, so I cobbled together a program to run 100,000 simulations of Razordons standing and shooting, and every time the average comes out to just over 24 shots. So we'll go with that. (This means 12 hits, as posited above, but we'll get to that.)

24 shots. Hit on 4+. Means 1/2 hit = 12 hits.
12 hits. S4 vs T4 means 1/2 wound = 6 wounds.
6 wounds. 2+ becomes 3+, so 2/6 hit = 2 wounds.

Now, let's be generous and assume you're running six wide and had at least two more in the back, so that six models get the attack, and that you have a champion.

The Knights + Champion will get 19 attacks.
19 attacks. Hit on 3+, so (4/6) = 12.66 hits.
12.66 hits. Wound on 2+ with lances, so (5/6) = 10.55 wounds, which is indeed enough to kill all the razordons.

Everything's golden, right? Oh, we forgot about the skink handlers. 3 barbed razordons will have 12. Let's say two misfires have happened and we're down to 8, and that you wisely haven't rolled your horses attacks, yet.

The horses get 12 attacks. Hit on 3s means (4/6) = 8 hits.
8 hits. Wound on 2s means (5/6) = 6.6 wounds...

Do you see where I'm going with this? While you'll certainly kill the razordons, you have pretty much no hope of wiping out the entire unit, which means it's going to break, which means Frenzy is going to force you to pursue. And then you'll have moved (at least) 10" + 3d6" in a direction that you're not in control of. An opponent can easily arrange for a unit to be off the board or in the woods with that kind of range, and even if there's no table edge or forest handy it's going to take you two turns to recover from that kind of movement -- or be a complete drain of your magic phase, assuming you can make it happen.

Blood Knights without any banner or leader tricks aren't that scary -- M7 frenzied is relatively easy to bait around, and LM have some of the best baiters, IMO. Losing a 225 to kill 110 worth and fling 440 across the board is more than worth it. Stick with the Dragon. *grin*

Necromancy Black
28-03-2009, 04:54
Couple of things about above:

Firstly, you are taking into account that if either artillary dice is a misfire, the razerdon doesn't do any shooting right? It's a 33% to not shoot compared to the normal 15% chance they normall have (percents are not exact, but correct to 1%)

Secondly, Unless they are at the very edge of their charge range, teh blood knights will controll which whay they overrun. Any block unit will almost always controll which way they face against skirmishers.

The rules say you have to touch the closest skirmisher, and that the skirmishers have to line up to the block unti. So you charge up, stop, then wheel to face towards another enmy unit, touching the closest skirmisher in teh process. The skirmisher unit lines up to you, you kill and break them and overrun right into the other unit you alligned too.

Skirmisher can bait but they are extremly poor at redirecting. Seeing as Razerdon's must stand and shoot, they most likely won't be able to flee to bait.

Get Salamanders to open the tins and use keep skink skirmishers to bait or small groups of ten skinks to redirect.

Dokushin
28-03-2009, 13:55
That is, in fact, taking into account the increased misfire chance (discarding both die if either is a misfire). I was actually surprised that the average stayed so high -- a napkin calculation had me expecting more like 12 or 13, lol. Hence the importance of brute-forcing a problem to make sure you're in the ballpark. Running the simulation repeatedly suggests we're looking at 24.7 shots on average, with very little deviation (expected with 100k runs! The era of computers...)

But yeah, there are better things to bait with, sure. I'm not denying that. And it's hard to steer them with skirmishers, as you have to move out to the edges of their LOS cone. But it's still feasible -- I was just offering up a word of caution to the above. Sure, be more suspicious of 5x2 skinks or sallies in the trees, but personally, I'd sacrifice a Razordon unit to throw Blood Knights across the board if I wasn't ready for them and I didn't have anything else handy.

Whitesox
28-03-2009, 14:29
like people have said razordons are not a problem, i normally charge them with wraiths and etheral vamps if they survive

i've played this list three times now and the closest i have came to a victory is a marginal defeat...

the EoTG and slann combo are making life very difficult, yes having dreadknights with infinate hatred can kill the skint priest on the top but the anchient skegedon remains which is stubborn, then they either get flank charged and die or if they are lucky they eventually kill the skegedon and then get shot up by skinks

Shamfrit
28-03-2009, 14:33
Forbidden Lore, Lore of Shadow..

Good game.

Whitesox
28-03-2009, 14:38
Forbidden Lore, Lore of Shadow..

Good game.

cupped hands, curse of charm of tepok, becalming coginatation & engine of the gods = not a chance

only my lord would take the forbidden lore to grant a chance to cast it and with becalming coginatation i cant irresistable force it and he has enought dispel dice to dispel it

and with cupped hands/cure charm of tepok the amount of times my lord looses a spell or wounds due to the slann miscasting is not funny