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View Full Version : Does anybody remember and would anybody mind?



Commissar Vaughn
26-03-2009, 22:42
A couple of years ago I did a project log,

this one in fact ---> http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46479

In which I made Chimeras fly.

For the most part they just counted as Chimeras, but with the new Guard Codex almost upon us I was wandering if anyone minded if they were used as Valkyries and Vendettas? There not much different, except in the weapons fit and thats easily sorted with a ten minuite root through my bitz box.

Im not sure what Id use the Sentinals as though...

Anyway the reason I ask is that I suggested this in my LFGS today and was told by staff that it wouldnt be allowed, as they arent Valks etc and carry the wrong weapons...

GW model? check...
Multilasers? Check...
Heavy Bolters? Check....
Missiles? Check.

Does "count as" no longer mean I can count one model as another similiar model that does roughly the same job? If not, what does it mean?

Templar Ben
26-03-2009, 22:45
I think yours are great and I don't have a good reason why they would not be allowed. A bad reason and the one most likely at play is they view this as costing a sale. Look back a page at a thread started by trenchraider on that topic.

Vaktathi
26-03-2009, 22:49
I don't think any reasonable player would mind as long as its not being done to try and gain an underhanded advantage, which it doesn't look like here.

If someone pitches a fit about it, they probably wouldn't be very fun to play anyway.

RichBlake
26-03-2009, 22:49
As long as the size and height are the same it wouldnt bother me at all.

Maine
26-03-2009, 22:59
Theres actually a huge size difference between the Valks and these Chimeras. The Valkyrie model is pretty big. The Valk is on a tall stand as well, while these are low to the ground.

Normally I'm a very lenient person with proxying/counts-as... I'd allow it for a couple games of proxying, but in the long run, I would not agree to continue allowing it counts-as, even for friendly games. They're just so drastically different in size and weapons. It'd be like proxying a Landspeeder on wheels w/ extra weapons, for a Landraider. A Valkyrie is about 2x longer, 1.5x taller, and (with wingspan) 3x wider than a Chimera.

Additionally, Valkyries are a Squadron of 1-3 per Fast Attack slot. They are not available as dedicated transports. This means that (unless you only take 1/Slot) they must maintain 4" coherency, must shoot at the same target, and are always destroyed on an Immobilized result. For core transport, the Chimeras are superior (and half the cost). Valks will probably work best as a mixed Anti-Inf/Anti-Tank and Vet/ST transport. Finally, company/platoon command squads can't issue orders while embarked (the Chimera's Mobile Command rule is the exception).

Your conversions are good as anti grav Chimeras. I'd really recommend keeping these as regular Chimeras for all of the reasons above. The Valkyries have their place, but unless you are making an Elysian-like all-Valk deployed army, you should stick with Chimeras.

Hashshashin
27-03-2009, 00:50
Those models would be fine by me. I actually think those are pretty cool, and your army composition is pretty much of your choosing so have fun.

The one thing I would say is if one is a Valk, then they should all be Valks, and vice versa if one's a Chimera, then they should all be Chimeras.

perplexiti
27-03-2009, 00:56
They look great, and I'd happily let them count as Valks, even with the size difference.

IJW
27-03-2009, 00:56
Does "count as" no longer mean I can count one model as another similiar model that does roughly the same job? If not, what does it mean?
:wtf:
What it means is that the staff in your local shop were, for reasons unknown, being idiots. Ignore them and carry on as you were planning to.

Serg. Lynchbox
27-03-2009, 01:05
I wouldn't mind but I would give special rules such as how far it can move since it would probably be slower than a Valkrie. I would say maz would be like a skimmer. maybe -1 amour on the sides.
I really like your creation cause I'm fascinated with Airborne and Gunships. Did you ever think about making the model have wings and using the chassis as the chassis for the Valkrie. So if people complain that the model is too small you just make the same size wing span an use the plasticard to enlarge the body. I would love to see that project done. I think the Valkrie is an over seized model to play with on a regular battle with a 6x4 table.

Grimtuff
27-03-2009, 01:30
I wouldn't mind but I would give special rules such as how far it can move since it would probably be slower than a Valkrie. I would say maz would be like a skimmer. maybe -1 amour on the sides.


Then it would not be a "count as" Valkyrie and he'd be making up rules. :rolleyes:

Valks have the same armour as a Chimera anyway.

Serg. Lynchbox
27-03-2009, 03:35
Then it would not be a "count as" Valkyrie and he'd be making up rules. :rolleyes:

Valks have the same armour as a Chimera anyway.

It would be a light version of the Valkrie. Since he would get an advantage of the 3x less wingspan, I would say deduct 1 AV. I know they have around the same armor but to make things "fair" if another player says "hey, it doesn't have wings, it's harder for me to hit from the side, you could compensate. It's not a "counts as Valkrie" since it has slightly different stats. Saying that the Chimera "counts as" a Valkyrie is a "counts as". I made a weaker version of the Valkryie to "compensate" Grimstuff.

Are you that strict that you have to make everything go by the codex? I'm not saying change some rules but converting a model that isn't the same size for LOS should be a weaker version of the actual version. In tourneys of course they wouldn't accept it but in some fun games would be fine by me. Since I usually don't play against the same person every week.

RichBlake
27-03-2009, 05:09
Then it would not be a "count as" Valkyrie and he'd be making up rules. :rolleyes:

Valks have the same armour as a Chimera anyway.

Same front armour, higher armour on the sides.

Serg. Lynchbox
27-03-2009, 05:25
So then use the chimera armor for the sides if he wants to use his flying Chimeras as a vehicle that's treated as a skimmer.

Blackwolf
27-03-2009, 06:08
I checked out your models and thay are great. They are a little smaller but I would have no problem letting you use them as you have put serious time and effort into creating cool models and that is what the hobby is all about. In competitive play you should ask the judge first however you can use them in my tournaments.

Ddraiglais
27-03-2009, 07:16
I love conversions and creativity. It seems that's not stressed like it was. I'd play you. I wouldn't ask for any special rules. Those models would be fun to play against.

Lord Cook
27-03-2009, 07:30
I would not have a problem with it, but there are considerable issues with the difference in size and placement of weapons, so I wouldn't be too harsh on someone who has doubts. This isn't as clear cut as using WHFB cold ones for your rough riders instead of horses.

The Highwayman
27-03-2009, 07:53
I would not mind playing against them. The models look great and I'm sure would make the game fun to face a unique army


They are not available as dedicated transports.

If this is the case in the new guard codex, how do you field a drop troop army then?

Maine
27-03-2009, 08:35
If this is the case in the new guard codex, how do you field a drop troop army then?

It's still a transport, just not dedicated. Most of the rules you know for transports are actually for transports in general. The rules for Dedicated Transports are on p.67, in the bottom right box - 2 small paragraphs out of the 2 pages of transport rules. The main difference are:

1. Dedicated transports are bought as an upgrade to the unit and do not use up a FOC slot.

2. Only the unit that the dedicated transport was purchased with may start the game embarked upon it, but after the game begins any unit can embark upon it.

As it is 1-3 Valkyries per Fast Attack slot, a Drop Troop army can deploy 9 valkyries in 3 squadrons.

A Drop Troop list might look like:

HQ: Company Command
Elite: Stormtroopers x3
Troops: Veterans w/ "Grenadiers" upgrade x6
Fast: 3 Valkyries x3

Put all the Veteranss and Company Command in the Valks, and you have 2 spare Valks. The STs can either use them or deep strike. That list is 2030 pts before any upgrades/heavy weapons/special weapons.

Commissar Vaughn
27-03-2009, 09:06
how big is the new valk then? they didnt look that much diferent. if anyone can post rough dimensions Id be greatful. TBH though nobody complained when I used them as chimeras despite the fact they stood 8" off the deck and were a lot bigger with that twin tail boom!

How tall is the stand for a valk now as well? I didnt want mine too high up due to the whole "falling from a great height and smashing" problem.

Its easy enough to drawn LOS from where the weapons would have been on a valk. Its only really the multilaser anyway....the single heavy bolter wont do much so can be ignored. or possibly boxed in.
On the heavier gunship which will be a vendetta, Ill redo the autocannons as lascannons and probably the hull heavy bolter too.
All of them would need missiles attached, Im thinking on wing-like pylons from the lower fuselage ;)

Cant help thinking there was some jealousy involved as even the staff dont have valks yet and for all intents and purposes Ive got 3 already :D

The Highwayman
27-03-2009, 09:07
It's still a transport, just not dedicated. Most of the rules you know for transports are actually for transports in general. The rules for Dedicated Transports are on p.67, in the bottom right box - 2 small paragraphs out of the 2 pages of transport rules. The main difference are:

1. Dedicated transports are bought as an upgrade to the unit and do not use up a FOC slot.

2. Only the unit that the dedicated transport was purchased with may start the game embarked upon it, but after the game begins any unit can embark upon it.

As it is 1-3 Valkyries per Fast Attack slot, a Drop Troop army can deploy 9 valkyries in 3 squadrons.

A Drop Troop list might look like:

HQ: Company Command
Elite: Stormtroopers x3
Troops: Veterans w/ "Grenadiers" upgrade x6
Fast: 3 Valkyries x3

Put all the Veteranss and Company Command in the Valks, and you have 2 spare Valks. The STs can either use them or deep strike. That list is 2030 pts before any upgrades/heavy weapons/special weapons.

Ok, thanks for explaining that for me, it was very helpful as I was qite confused but now I see how it works. Thanks.

Barbarossa
27-03-2009, 10:57
You did all the work converting them, you should be damn well able to use them!

Logarithm Udgaur
27-03-2009, 11:05
I personally would have no problem with it, as long as the weapons were correct(ish).

That being said, if your Not-so-FLGS said no, there is your answer.

TBH though nobody complained when I used them as chimeras despite the fact they stood 8" off the deck and were a lot bigger with that twin tail boom!
No real surprise there. People are much less likely to complain when they are the ones granted a perceived advantage.

Thud
27-03-2009, 11:33
I'd definitely let you do it. They're great conversions and makes your army look unique.

Besides, load them up with Catachans, bring speakers with you for your iPod and put on 'Ride of the Valkyries' and anyone refusing to play you is a git not worth playing anyway!

ehlijen
27-03-2009, 12:18
I'd let you do it happily for now. But in the long run I'd expect you to try and address the weapons mismatch somehow.

Commissar Vaughn
27-03-2009, 15:07
I dont think theres that much of a mismatch, and as if most space marine players can tell what theyre looking at when they see any non marine army anyway! :angel:

Now heres the biggie, how about these http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74617 as Devildogs? Esp now that chimeras with Autocannons would require the forgeworld rules :cries:

Basically a chimera variant with powerfull short ranged AT shell, baby vanqs FTW! :evilgrin:

victorpofa
27-03-2009, 23:49
I would have no issues. They look good.