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Latro_
27-03-2009, 13:16
I have been thinking of doing a non imperial based technology army for a while. Might be doing eldar and i wanted lots of guardians. Then my attention turned to nids and lots of gaunts...

it seems wherever you turn it just seems that for the pts, Orks are just so much better, ok spine gaunts are 1pt cheaper but pfff compared to an ork boy with shoota i'll pay that pt thanks. Same with guardians being 2pts more... save 2pts, T4 WS4 i'll have some of that.

It just seems wherever I turn to xenosy armies for some basic troops, Orks just win out hands down no questions asked :P. Now I play orks and have a big army of them which I havent used much in the last year or so and i'm thinking now I might just do another Ork army!

Anyone else get this kinda lack of enthusiasm for other races when you compare them to orks?

The Clairvoyant
27-03-2009, 13:29
Not really no.

My enthusiasm for orks is from the fact they were my first army back in 1993 and i chose orks cos i liked the look of them. i've only ever chosen armies from what i like the look of. I have two other armies, Space marines and Tyranids - both of which i went to because i liked them. Neither of these have actually been used since 1997 as i stopped playing 40k then (back now with 5th ed) and i want to concentrate on rebuilding my ork army before i go back and sort out my other two old armies.
I also really like the look of the tau. No idea what they're like as an army but they look good and thats all that matters to me!

Poseidal
27-03-2009, 13:30
In equal points, Guardians outshoot Ork shoota boys (within 12", outside and they can't shoot at all) and even Dire Avengers.

Vanilla Dire Avengers have exactly the same average wounds point for point against anything without a 5+ save and have the same range.

Though point for point, Shoota boyz are generally better in CC than both units.

sabreu
27-03-2009, 13:32
Not really. Every army has a different sort of troop, and usually most other armies have some other gimmick that makes them appealing...

Ya know, things like:
Power armour (3+ saves always good)
Ap negating weapons
Weapon options (lascannons, starcannons, whatever type of cannons)
High strength weapons that hit from afar (Tau...sigh)
Outflanking troops (scouts, rangers...)

So much too look into, that really, even my own ork boys don't win out in the end of the day simply because as good as they seem to be, that 6+ save really doesn't envoke that much confidence in me. :D

Mannimarco
27-03-2009, 14:16
lets compare the ork boy to the imperial guardman

both cost 6 points (in the new guard codex the guard cost 5 but meh)
ork has higher WS
guard has better BS
ork his higher T
both have same LD (ork usually comes in fearless mob, guard usually inside command hub so officer LD applies)
ork has a lot more attacks
guard has 5+ save
ork has 6+ save
ork has furious charge

the basic ork boy is point for point the best basic troop in the game

Perfect Organism
27-03-2009, 14:30
Ultimately, numbers only count if you can actually get them where they need to be. With the sheer number of boys you need to form an effective unit, they generally don't fit in the available transport, have difficulty moving anywhere without difficult terrain tests, can't occupy intact buildings and generally cause huge problems for an ork player trying to manouver them. On top of that, their short range means that they often can't all engage the same target at once (if you are 12" from one end of a boys mob, you are 24" from the other side) and they tend to fall apart from morale tests after taking around 60% casualties. So, while they are good value for points, I wouldn't consider them to be any better than chaos marines, for example.

Don't get me wrong, I think orks are probably one of the better armies for 5th edition and the boys play a very large part in making them so, but they aren't head and shoulders (or just shoulders, with ork anatomy) above the competition.

The sheer tedium of painting and the effort of transporting them should be a serious disincentive as well. It's all well and good to say that an army looks great on paper, but when you have to sit down and actually build, paint and carry them all, the 10% extra chance of winning a game doesn't seem quite so worth it.

The_Outsider
27-03-2009, 14:36
Little known fact: there is no such thing as a "best" troop in the game, as troops have to work with the rest of a list, ork boyz and guardsmen interact with their respect codices in very, very different ways.

Not to mention you can do better than ork boyz in a unit versus unit troop battle.

sabreu
27-03-2009, 14:38
SNIP

Always with this nonsense. :(

Orks don't get the ranged support the guard do, the heavy battle tanks, the squad options to be ranged or template happy, can't have everyone in carapace, and all that sort of nonsense.

Yes, we're good, but guard need to stop going on and on about how orks beat 'em in close combat. You should have enough firepower to more than make up for that!

::grumbles off into the distance::

Perfect Organism
27-03-2009, 14:41
lets compare the ork boy to the imperial guardman

both cost 6 points (in the new guard codex the guard cost 5 but meh)
ork has higher WS
guard has better BS
ork his higher T
both have same LD (ork usually comes in fearless mob, guard usually inside command hub so officer LD applies)
ork has a lot more attacks
guard has 5+ save
ork has 6+ save
ork has furious charge

the basic ork boy is point for point the best basic troop in the game

Because they are better than the worst troops in the game (well, except for Eldar Guardians, but who takes them?)?

Also note that the guardsmen can take more and better weapon upgrades and don't rely on mobility so much thanks to their range (thus avoiding half the problems of horde armies). I wouldn't dismiss the 1 point price drop either - that's a 17% reduction in cost; a 25% reduction in cost was considered enough to turn ork shoota boys from one of the worst units in the game into supposedly the best.

sabreu
27-03-2009, 14:44
I take guardians thank you very much!

::grumbles some more::

sliganian
27-03-2009, 14:59
I take guardians thank you very much!

::grumbles some more::

:)

Folks who underestimate a Guardian squad have obviously never gotten 30-40 Shuriken shots directed at them.

In other news....
I am partial to the bog-standard Chaos Space Marine as "the #1 troop".

Considering that the spiky guy carrying the Flamer is likely LD 10 with a re-roll (unit Champ), 3+ save, and has as many attacks on the charge as a Space Marine ASSAULT MARINE, well, it is a pretty good package.

Fixer
27-03-2009, 15:00
I think it comes down to Chaos and Orks for 'best troops' in the game.

Orks are much more resilient to shooting thanks to the new cover saves, can outshoot tactical marines for cost and almost nothing can survive a charge from da boyz.

Boyz alone they would be a good troops choice, but power claw and Waaagh in addition? Nearby mek giving cover in the open? Sturdy for cost against pretty much everything but flamers and cover bypassing attacks? Ouch.

lachlin
27-03-2009, 15:04
Anyone else get this kinda lack of enthusiasm for other races when you compare them to orks?

I do! Orks are all I play. I've tried other races (IG, Bugs, tin'eads), but I always come back to Orks. All the talk trying to rationalize that "xenos A is better because of________" Will never sway me.

W0lf
27-03-2009, 15:08
30 orks. Nob with powerclaw.

Rinse and repeat 4 or 5 times.

Very litte can compete in ether KPs or Objective missions.

Captain Micha
27-03-2009, 15:08
:)

Folks who underestimate a Guardian squad have obviously never gotten 30-40 Shuriken shots directed at them.

.

So you mean a 10 man Dire avenger with Exarch squad right?

Guardians miss far too often.

Rangers are the way to go. Any pts you spend on guardians is less pts you have spent on something -good-

SPYDER68
27-03-2009, 15:20
Troops balanced ? Nope..

You cannot compare base troops for an army..

For example..

Ork vs Guardsmen..

The base boy is better of course.. but...

Guard get amazing heavy support tanks.. which beats orks out..

Orks get large scoring units for objectives...

Orks have the chance of tons of loota shots..

Guard have hellhounds that 2-3 can wreck a 30man/ork squad of orks a turn easy.

Orks have nobs.. guard has mass Armor with lots of firepower..


So do orks make me decide against other armies because the boy is awsome ?

Hell no..

I go bye what models i like.. Then look at "all" of their unit selections.

If you want to compare base troops might as well play marines with tons of 10man squads with free missle launcher / flamer that can combat squad.

mattschuur
27-03-2009, 15:31
Ork boys are good, but as has been stated they are slow, short ranged, unwieldy and if "they" get charged are far less effective. I've never lost to the new ork dex, I've played them for years so I might have an advantage. I've beaten them with Eldar, 2 15 man guardian squads, Chaos marines and tied them with reg. marines and chaos marines again.

Comparing troops from different armies against one another is not a valid way to discern what unit is useful and what unit sucks. You can't compare a single IG guardsmen to an Ork boy because they are not run in units of 1. 30 Shoota boyz with a Nob, PK and 3 RL is the same price as, using the old IG book, 2 Infantry squads with ML and GL, a Command squad with ML and GL, and a remnants squad of 5 with a GL. The guard have the same number of models as the orks, but can deploy more than 24" inches away and on turn 1 drop 3 S4 templates on the orks. After that they get 3 S4 and 4 S3 templates. By the time the orks get into shoota range they have taken at least 2 turns of templates and lasguns. Then they can shoot ONE unit. Even if they kill that one unit, they get 2 S4 templates, and 3 S3 templates not counting lasguns. The next turn they kill maybe another unit. If both units killed are the Infantry squads, they still have 2 units to deal with and most likely not that many orks left, if any. The Orks will be shredded.

Throw in a reduction in points for the IG units, they'd probably have the remnants be a 10 man squad with another ML.

As far as playing other armies, I am not discouraged because Orks, while strong are not overpowering and even if they were i'm not that kind of player. The only army i'm not playing right now is my Dark Eldar, but thats equal parts lack of a modern book and my paint job is painful to look at.

Ninja SPYDER68 beat me to the punch.

matt schuur

Poseidal
27-03-2009, 15:37
By the time the orks get into shoota range they have taken at least 2 turns of templates and lasguns
One turn of if 24" away. The Shooter has a pretty good range and can shoot as well as Dire Avengers for the same points.

Cane
27-03-2009, 15:39
All things considered, I'd say Ork Boys are one of the better troop choices for any army.

They get a load of bonuses and as long as there's a decent amount of terrain their negative quality of having low saves is largely moot. Not to mention you can have some Nobz thrown in the mix or go for a Nobz biker army in the same codex.

Deadmanwade
27-03-2009, 15:43
Used properly orks are great. But the same can be said for most other units in the game. When I use mathhammer I try to calculate vs. Boyz as well as MEQ now just because there are so many new orky converts.
The problem with boyz is they die en-mass when they get shot at. 3 Hellhounds and 3 Basilisks mixed up with mortar squads will show you how good a boy is vs a guardsman.
Plus, whilst boyz are dirt cheap, their support units are a little expensive. So you usually end up with 100 fearless boyz and a bunch of small elite/heavy/fast choices that break after taking a couple of casualties leaving the boyz with no back up.
The orks have some of the best units in the game (biker nobs) but even they arent guaranteed to make their points back and again, can be broken fairly easily.
If boyz get assaulted, their combat potential drops by a load whereas those guardsmen will always suck no matter who charges.;)

Lame Duck
27-03-2009, 16:01
Erm what?

Ork players on here going on about boyz aren't really better than gardsmen because they're backed up by multiple russes (overpriced) and hellhounds (tailor made force)...duh?

You're acting like te rest of the ork codex is terrible and so can't compete with the cheesy IG codex. Orks are better priced and ONTOP of that the have Nob bikers that rip apart anything they look at, tankhunters and meks which garuntee multiple large squads of boyz coversaves against shooting. Works both ways.


Orks don't get the ranged support the guard do, the heavy battle tanks, the squad options to be ranged or template happy, can't have everyone in carapace, and all that sort of nonsense.

Yes, we're good, but guard need to stop going on and on about how orks beat 'em in close combat. You should have enough firepower to more than make up for that!

Guard stuff is overpriced, listing options sounds impressive though. "everyone in carapace", yeah, what a power build.


Guard get amazing heavy support tanks.. which beats orks out..

Guard have hellhounds that 2-3 can wreck a 30man/ork squad of orks a turn easy.

1. Again, points costs.
2. For 345 points I would hope it could do some damage! However as casualties are removed for one shot before the other can be fired it would take quite a dimwitted ork opponent and a lucky IG player for that to happen.

USER1
27-03-2009, 16:08
Some one i know did the maths for orks vs all other troops he could think of and point for point orks will beat any other troop in the game. I have not done thee maths myself but it sounds about right.

SPYDER68
27-03-2009, 16:11
Leman Russes arent over priced... Hellhounds arent over priced..

Id like to see a walking ork army get even close to the current hellhound without shooting a BS 2 rokkit launcher at it.. Which isnt even close to reliable.

Hellhounds tailerd list ? I run two of them solid, and they do great vs all armies...


153 pts for a av 14 tank with 72" range Str 8 ap3 template overpriced ?

or 163 pts for a str 10 ap 2 24" range armor 14,13,11 tank ??

2... who said the hellhounds would shoot the same unit every turn ?

last ork army i played probly killed half his ork boy's bye themselves even while trying to keep his guys spread out..

Once again.. current Guard heavies are far from over priced.

Frontier
27-03-2009, 16:18
:)

Folks who underestimate a Guardian squad have obviously never gotten 30-40 Shuriken shots directed at them.


I am having nightmares from my first game against them. TO THIS DAY. God, that was awful.

Latro_
27-03-2009, 16:23
You see I was only thinking of doing 1000pts or so. I know its silly to compare troops based on the other army factors but in such a small army and the kinda basic troops with non imperial technology I wanna do... Orks just kill it.

For example I was gonna take 2x 20 guardians with conceal, comes in at what 400pts
In a 1000pts that leaves you with about 600pts for the shinney stuff.

Those core of troops, I just think, hang on... I could have going on for 60 boyz, nobs with PKs with pts left for a mek with kff or grots.

I guess for the xenos 'horde' or focus on basic troops list there just is no compare.

SPYDER68
27-03-2009, 16:25
You see I was only thinking of doing 1000pts or so. I know its silly to compare troops based on the other army factors but in such a small army and the kinda basic troops with non imperial technology I wanna do... Orks just kill it.

For example I was gonna take 2x 20 guardians with conceal, comes in at what 400pts
In a 1000pts that leaves you with about 600pts for the shinney stuff.

Those core of troops, I just think, hang on... I could have going on for 60 boyz, nobs with PKs with pts left for a mek with kff or grots.

I guess for the xenos 'horde' or focus on basic troops list there just is no compare.

Dire avengers are basic troops, rangers are basic troops.

AmBlam
27-03-2009, 16:25
I think what the OP is trying to say is that if you want to do a hordey style army you are basically forced to play Orks as the others (Nids IG) cannot compete. Or at least you are hurting yourself for not doing them.

You can compare units across a Codex you just have to know what you are doing and not have an agenda. Boyz are almost an army themselves and hence very easy to compare with other units. They are another boring ubiquitous troop type reminisent of 4th Ed Genestealers, often with carapace.

SPYDER68
27-03-2009, 16:27
I think what the OP is trying to say is that if you want to do a hordey style army you are basically forced to play Orks as the others (Nids IG) cannot compete. Or at least you are hurting yourself for not doing them.

You can compare units across a Codex you just have to know what you are doing and not have an agenda. Boyz are almost an army themselves and hence very easy to compare with other units. They are another boring ubiquitous troop type reminisent of 4th Ed Genestealers, often with carapace.

Wel, Ork is currently the ultimate horde army, i think IG horde amy may work soon also, wont know till its used some to see.

Nids guants are overpriced.. but their weakness is made up from other units..

to me.. guardians suck.. just like right now the base guardsmen suck.

The Clairvoyant
27-03-2009, 17:02
You see I was only thinking of doing 1000pts or so. I know its silly to compare troops based on the other army factors but in such a small army and the kinda basic troops with non imperial technology I wanna do... Orks just kill it.

For example I was gonna take 2x 20 guardians with conceal, comes in at what 400pts
In a 1000pts that leaves you with about 600pts for the shinney stuff.

Those core of troops, I just think, hang on... I could have going on for 60 boyz, nobs with PKs with pts left for a mek with kff or grots.

I guess for the xenos 'horde' or focus on basic troops list there just is no compare.

Well i fairly regularly take a 1000pt ork army to my local GW. In my army i take 2 x 20 boyz with slugga/choppa led by a nob with bosspole
20 boyz with shootas and 2 rokkit launchas, a mob of 5 nobz (eavy armour, 1 PK, 1 big choppa and a painboy) led by a warboss with PK, a battlewagon with big shoota, 2 deffkoptas with big shootas and a mob of 8 lootas.

Its done me rather well so far.

Lame Duck
27-03-2009, 17:52
Leman Russes arent over priced... Hellhounds arent over priced..

Id like to see a walking ork army get even close to the current hellhound without shooting a BS 2 rokkit launcher at it.. Which isnt even close to reliable.

Hellhounds tailerd list ? I run two of them solid, and they do great vs all armies...


153 pts for a av 14 tank with 72" range Str 8 ap3 template overpriced ?

or 163 pts for a str 10 ap 2 24" range armor 14,13,11 tank ??

2... who said the hellhounds would shoot the same unit every turn ?

last ork army i played probly killed half his ork boy's bye themselves even while trying to keep his guys spread out..

Once again.. current Guard heavies are far from over priced.

Leman russes are currently overpriced, I didnt say hellhounds were. If you're taking 2-3 hellhounds I would say you are leaning towards an anti ork army, wouldn't you? So it's hardly fair to try and concentrate on one effective anti ork unti to explain the points balance.

The point is cheap boyz don't "make up" for a poor ork codex, they add to a very competitive codex whic the guard codex isn't. And alongthe same lines more expensive guardsmen don't balance an otherwise overpowered codex, it's just more of the same in general.

The_Outsider
27-03-2009, 17:58
Time for some internet logic™

Boyz are cheap
Boyz have no armour, therefore they have lots of hard counters
Boyz come in larger squads, making them rather vulnerable to template/blast weaponry
Boyz have a very limited range wherein they truly excel
Boyz have only average shooting.

A marine is just under double a boy.
Marines have power armour, meaning there only a handful of troop level weapons that counter them
Marines have better weapons and are more accurate
Marines can do both CC and shooting better than most
Marines get more weapon options
Marines come in 10 strong squads making them far more resilient to blast weaponry
Mariens do not rely on cover anywhere near as much as a boy


Therefor, a marine > a boy!

sabreu
27-03-2009, 18:10
Erm what?

Ork players on here going on about boyz aren't really better than gardsmen because they're backed up by multiple russes (overpriced) and hellhounds (tailor made force)...duh?

I was trying to make the point that each army is different, and comparing two units from different codex' is quite pointless. Besides, Guard are getting a new codex so any arguements right now are pretty void.


You're acting like te rest of the ork codex is terrible and so can't compete with the cheesy IG codex. Orks are better priced and ONTOP of that the have Nob bikers that rip apart anything they look at, tankhunters and meks which garuntee multiple large squads of boyz coversaves against shooting. Works both ways.

You got that from me or someone else? Totally didn't go that route, but if that's the way you feel I'm sorry?


Guard stuff is overpriced, listing options sounds impressive though. "everyone in carapace", yeah, what a power build.

Never said it was a power build either. Really, how do you get that from what I said? I'm really curious if I come off that serious. I was pretty sure I wrote a funny little post.


1. Again, points costs.
2. For 345 points I would hope it could do some damage! However as casualties are removed for one shot before the other can be fired it would take quite a dimwitted ork opponent and a lucky IG player for that to happen.

Sorry, no. Don't agree with your assessment here at all. First off, I've never played a game where there was nothing but troops. JUST Ork boys playing against JUST regular gaurdsmen would probably make your scenario correct, but until that day where I don't field trukks, wagons, and what not and my gaurd player doesn't field hellhounds, russes, and support squads, the world may never know!

Grazzy
27-03-2009, 18:19
Orks are the best basic troops by far. Other armies have to learn to take other units which can deal with them eg marines have to take ordnance and eldar have to take scatter lasers.

sabreu
27-03-2009, 18:30
Bog Standard marines, with just their bolt guns, are more than enough to take on the feared 'green tide'. Ordnance won't kill much more than 10 rapid firing marines in that 12" kill zone.

Fortunately for my green tide brothers, most marine players try to overcome their fear by loading up on pointless toys. =D

Lame Duck
27-03-2009, 18:47
I was trying to make the point that each army is different, and comparing two units from different codex' is quite pointless. Besides, Guard are getting a new codex so any arguements right now are pretty void.

Comparing points should be somwhat viable, especially when they are compulsory troop choices for each respective army.


Y
ou got that from me or someone else? Totally didn't go that route, but if that's the way you feel I'm sorry?

You and others. You seem to be denying that the ork codex is powerful than the IG codex and that the boyz effectiveness doesn't make a difference.


Never said it was a power build either. Really, how do you get that from what I said? I'm really curious if I come off that serious. I was pretty sure I wrote a funny little post.

When you listed off what thhey were capable of doing paraphrase "loads of pie plates, heavy weapon s galor and you can all have carapace armour" that to me sounded as if you were implying it was effective, it isn't at all.

I must have a broken sense of humour then eh?:)



Sorry, no. Don't agree with your assessment here at all. First off, I've never played a game where there was nothing but troops. JUST Ork boys playing against JUST regular gaurdsmen would probably make your scenario correct, but until that day where I don't field trukks, wagons, and what not and my gaurd player doesn't field hellhounds, russes, and support squads, the world may never know!

Look at tournament army top three etc. Where do orks come, where do IG come? What is a known power build for orks? Bar nob bikers multiple large squads of boys is generaly agreed upon (by players from all armies) to be an extremely effective powerbuild.

sabreu
27-03-2009, 18:54
Comparing points should be somwhat viable, especially when they are compulsory troop choices for each respective army.

Eh, I look at the armies as a whole. Troops are only going to be as good as the support units that back them.


You and others. You seem to be denying that the ork codex is powerful than the IG codex and that the boyz effectiveness doesn't make a difference.

Ork codex > Ig Codex? No duh there. That's kinda why their getting a new one in what, a month and a half?


When you listed off what thhey were capable of doing paraphrase "loads of pie plates, heavy weapon s galor and you can all have carapace armour" that to me sounded as if you were implying it was effective, it isn't at all.

They definitely have ways to be effective in a pure scenario of just troops versus troops, which this thread is meant to have been (I may have ranted off a little, but oh well. Tis warseer, see...).

In a troop versus troop analysis, Guard can be kitted to be better. If a bit pricier*

*Current codex.


I must have a broken sense of humour then eh?:)

At least your not a troller. :D


Look at tournament army top three etc. Where do orks come, where do IG come? What is a known power build for orks? Bar nob bikers multiple large squads of boys is generaly agreed upon (by players from all armies) to be an extremely effective powerbuild.

I really ain't got nothing here to counter you with logically. Biker nobz are made of awesome and win. But their not the basic bog standard troops we're discussing. ;)

Now if we want to talk about 'unlockable' troop types like Sterngaurd, biker nobs, and the ilk, we can go do that way if your up for that discussion!

Lame Duck
27-03-2009, 19:03
Eh, I look at the armies as a whole. Troops are only going to be as good as the support units that back them.

So in that respect maybe the support AND the troops could be more appropriatley costed. So one army loading up on troops wouldn't be somewhat undercosted.


In a troop versus troop analysis, Guard can be kitted to be better. If a bit pricier*

*Current codex.

Can they really be kitted out better? And does that justify having an overpriced base cost? Besides, the more boyz a squad has the better, so surely they should, that should be taken into account.

A unit shouldn't be cheaper because it lacks the option to take as may weopans, the weapons should be costed appropriately.



At least your not a troller. :D

You're.:D




I really ain't got nothing here to counter you with logically. Biker nobz are made of awesome and win. But their not the basic bog standard troops we're discussing. ;)

Now if we want to talk about 'unlockable' troop types like Sterngaurd, biker nobs, and the ilk, we can go do that way if your up for that discussion

The point of my post there was even if you ignore no bikers a well established power build for orks is to load up on upwards of 60-90 boyz in three squads. Surely that indicates just how point effective they are.

sabreu
27-03-2009, 19:16
So in that respect maybe the support AND the troops could be more appropriatley costed. So one army loading up on troops wouldn't be somewhat undercosted.

Agreed?



Can they really be kitted out better? And does that justify having an overpriced base cost? Besides, the more boyz a squad has the better, so surely they should, that should be taken into account.

Yes, really. Overcoasted? Currently their the same price and are going down in the next codex. Would being the price of a grot appeal to you? because that's the next logical step. Gaurd can currently be given Carapace, which against orks will protect them against 90% of their weaponry. In a horde fight, the more gaurdsmen will take out the more boyz in battle. They will have superior range, firepower, and what not on their own.


A unit shouldn't be cheaper because it lacks the option to take as may weopans, the weapons should be costed appropriately.

You extrapolated that from what I said? I'm on the stance both units are pretty good for what they offer and how they work with their codex's. Do you play both orks and Gaurd like I do?



You're.:D

I'm trolling? I'm not? I'm confussed and my Iemotions are hurting. :cries:




The point of my post there was even if you ignore no bikers a well established power build for orks is to load up on upwards of 60-90 boyz in three squads. Surely that indicates just how point effective they are.

Sure is, but a guard list tailored with flamers, multishot weapons, and nothing with a serious ap value will take that particular power build down.

It's all symantecs man, and which lists go agaisnt others.

Sheena Easton
27-03-2009, 19:17
When you take troop types out of context (ie: isolate them from the rest of their Codex) and do the same with another troop type from another Codex and then put them in an abstract (and unrealistic) situation, then one will on paper look better than the other. This is because different troop types in different armies and different races are for different roles within said armies.

If you want to truly compare troop types, you have to do so within the context of the Codex and respective army lists used. (The biggest flaw in all the silly MathHammer arguments adn "proofs" you see banded about).

This is even more true with certain troop types from certain lists which have to work in tandem with other elements of the Codex to fulfill their true potential (especially true of Eldar incidentally, less so with the basic Ork Shoota Boy than other elements of the list - but try comparing Tankbustas and Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers in the same abstract way...)

The_Outsider
27-03-2009, 19:28
post

Or flip it the other way - "marine elites are rubbish because they are barely better than a standard marine, buff plz" does not take into account how good the basic marine is.

Badger[Fr]
27-03-2009, 19:47
Troops balanced ? Nope..

You cannot compare base troops for an army..

For example..

Ork vs Guardsmen..

The base boy is better of course.. but...

Guard get amazing heavy support tanks.. which beats orks out..

Orks get large scoring units for objectives...

Orks have the chance of tons of loota shots..

Guard have hellhounds that 2-3 can wreck a 30man/ork squad of orks a turn easy.

Orks have nobs.. guard has mass Armor with lots of firepower..


So do orks make me decide against other armies because the boy is awsome ?

Hell no..

I go bye what models i like.. Then look at "all" of their unit selections.

If you want to compare base troops might as well play marines with tons of 10man squads with free missle launcher / flamer that can combat squad.
Basically, you're saying that an Ork Boyz isn't actually better than a Guardsman just because the Imperial Guard has good HS and FA choices? :wtf: Yes, synergies must be taken into account, but 6-point guardsmen are still rubbish compared to Ork Boyz, and even with a one point drop, I doubt they will fare better.



The point is cheap boyz don't "make up" for a poor ork codex, they add to a very competitive codex whic the guard codex isn't. And alongthe same lines more expensive guardsmen don't balance an otherwise overpowered codex, it's just more of the same in general.
Exactly. Making unit X overcosted because unit Y is too powerful will only result in Y being spammed while nobody bothers with X.

sabreu
27-03-2009, 19:57
Hm....Guard...codex....coming out soon....Addresses most of listed problems...

Gah...

::passes out::

On a serious note, yes, as an ork and gaurd player, I agree with some points from both sides. however, saying a codex designed for what, two editions ago, is comparable to the new codex is just crass in my opinion. When the new guard codex comes out I'm sure everyone is going to find that particular vice to the versa. Even still, taking units out of context and without the full merit of the army list that contains them, is well, damn silly.

I stand by what my opinion is and its just that, an opinion. I'll respect yours and try to prove mine, but let's remember most likely you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, but we are doing this for fun. =D

And hey, I think you guys made some pretty good valid points so far. Let's keep it up!

SPYDER68
27-03-2009, 20:49
;3414540']Basically, you're saying that an Ork Boyz isn't actually better than a Guardsman just because the Imperial Guard has good HS and FA choices? :wtf: Yes, synergies must be taken into account, but 6-point guardsmen are still rubbish compared to Ork Boyz, and even with a one point drop, I doubt they will fare better.


Exactly. Making unit X overcosted because unit Y is too powerful will only result in Y being spammed while nobody bothers with X.

You cannot compare Unit A and unit B to eachother even with same point cost.. It just does NOT work due to you haft to take in account for everything else in the army....

Ubermensch Commander
27-03-2009, 21:07
The basic Ork boy is underpriced for what it does. 6pts for essentially fearless, str 4 on charge, potential to fleet(and you only need it once), 2 or 3 base attacks, decent toughness and WS. Then taking into account a power klaw wielding nob and it gets scary. Are they unstoppable? of course not! Can things outshoot them? Sure can! Can things out assault them? Some things can!

But points for output, when combined with other nasty nasty things in the Ork codex Ork boys are ridiculous for what they do.

8pt guardians for example. Gun is on par with Ork gun. Statwise Ork has a slight edge because, lets face it, the I4 and "higher" lleadership is negated by a Guardians lack of CC capabilities and the Orks only looking at leadership when down to under and around 12 models. No to mention sv of 5+ vs 6+ matters not at all unless being shot at by lasguns and then the T difference will come into play. No look at upgrade. Ooo a shiny hvy weapons platform that can be fired on the go!...Yay? If I recall correctly Ork Shoota boys can get multiple heavy weapons such as big shootas for much cheaper than that Grav weapons platform. Again, will it outshoot the Guardians? Unlikely, but the Guardians are paying significantly more points for not that much of a boost. Then one can look at the Nob vs Warlock...I know which one I am calling superior. Not to dismiss the Warlocks abilities, no, but the Nob with the Boyz is all around generally scarier.

Or we could look at Dire Avengers vs Ork Boyz. I love Dire Avengers. They are awesome! But again the Orks have a significant points advantage. Yes, Dire Avengers can mow Orks down!....but the Orks usually outnumber them more than two to one, once you count in costs of Exarch and whatnot vs Boyz+Nobz.

The 6pt Guardsmen vs the 6pt Ork boy was one of the best examples how much a points to output advantage the Ork boy has but since I have not seen the new Guard codex, I cannot judge.

And as others have said it isnt like the Ork boy is making up for any weakness in the Ork codex. It is a nasty piece of work.

Badger[Fr]
27-03-2009, 21:17
You cannot compare Unit A and unit B to eachother even with same point cost.. It just does NOT work due to you haft to take in account for everything else in the army....
This is true, but some armies have more obvious synergies than others. Wave Serpents and Farseers can greatly enhance Aspect Warriors abilities by allowing them to strike harder at the right the place, but Leman Russes and Hellhounds barely improve your average Guardsman.

landingshortly
27-03-2009, 21:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBj4Ny19vfQ

This is the Orc Boy. He sh.ts all over you. The Orc Boy is better than you.

The_Outsider
27-03-2009, 23:22
Psst, boyz (as well as marines - as well as the normal spiky marines) get a points break because they are shock troops - anything that has to be within 12" (or CC) is usually slightly cheaper than it normally would to factor that in.

Then coupled with the fact boyz are troops (a further points break) boyz would appear at first glance to be undercosted.

They are not when you realise that so much of the ork list is mostly a boy with different gear and will typically be paying 2-3 times as much as a boy per model, exactly as it is for marines.

dcpattyizbeast
27-03-2009, 23:37
[QUOTE=
The sheer tedium of painting and the effort of transporting them should be a serious disincentive as well. It's all well and good to say that an army looks great on paper, but when you have to sit down and actually build, paint and carry them all, the 10% extra chance of winning a game doesn't seem quite so worth it.[/QUOTE]
I play Orks and can agree with that 100%. It sometimes takes me a month to paint 1 Mob of Boyz. Thats why I'm topping them off at 1,500 pts and then doing a White Scars army.

shabbadoo
28-03-2009, 03:11
Going to the OP, I never choose an army based on how good I assume it will perform based on what the rules are in the codex. I alwya choose an army basd on how the models look. I like the modeling and painting apsect of the hobby first and foremost, but tactically I am no slouch by any means, so I usually figure out how to win with what I choose to build. Consequently I'd dsay that most of my armies are pretty standard as far as things go, with no "crazy army builds" of any kind. I usually make a point of completely filling out a standard FOC worth of units choices for any particualr army, and then can choose which units to use from there.

As far as basic Troops units go, Orks do have some very points effective choices. Space Marines are always good for their points too, and the new IG will be very good seeing as they cost somewhat less, can have more specialized squads attached to them, and can be issued some very good Orders.

holmcross
28-03-2009, 04:41
Anyone else get this kinda lack of enthusiasm for other races when you compare them to orks?

Not really. Its well known that the standard boy is seriously undercosted, so I just consider them a mistake, and not the norm.

Yes, its pretty funny to compare a termagants to an Ork boy. The two armies are similar enough that compairsons can be made. It is true that certain armies can't really have point cost compairsons drawn between each other, but that is only when there are a number of differing factors that make the whole of the unit greater then the sum of it's parts.