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View Full Version : The usability of Hochlandlongrifles?



grimhorn
27-03-2009, 15:28
Hello!

Im starting my third WF army and this time I wanted something "normal" so I went with the empire.
I wanted a wellrounded army that didnt field alot of anything but a few of everything instead.
Given that I went for two gunlines with 10 handgunners in each line. After reading a bit about them I upgraded one member of each line to a marksman and gave him a Hochland longrifle. I couldn't resist the temptation of some sniperaction!
But Ive been thinking is it really worth it? It is 25 points per unit.
Any response would be appreciated.

/ Grimhorn.

Briohmar
27-03-2009, 15:38
Hochlands can be great weapons, if there are enough of them, and they are coordinated fires. Two hochlands firing at an infantry (on foot) hero level character have a good chance of killing that hero in a couple of turns of fire, but they're not 100% reliable. If you could snipe a Tomb King Hierophant, then the weapons just paid for themselves by delivering you the game. Killing a High Elf mage is also worthwhile, etc. Shooting at a combat lord, your chances of a successful kill go down considerably, as high armor and ward saves will definitely limit your killing ability.

I like the guns, and do take them on occasion, and as I have said they can sometimes do great things, but only sometimes.

phoenixlaw
27-03-2009, 15:44
The best use i've found for them is sniping Ring of Hotek Black guard champions !

Commodus Leitdorf
27-03-2009, 15:57
Killing unit champions and taking pot shots at mages are useful. It can force the opponent to hide his wizards thus limiting there line of sight and, as a result of this, there magic abilities (especially if all there packing is magic missles).

They aren't going to do much all that often and only REALLY effective if taken in large numbers (2 handgunner units, 2 outrider champions with hochlands...and hell throw in an engineer with a hochland for kicks too)

-Commodus

Keller
27-03-2009, 16:02
I almost never use Hochlands in my Empire army, though I am starting to experiment more with them again these days.

When I started Empire, in early 6th edition, I loved the idea of Hochlands. A 36" ranged shot that could target anything was fantastic. I used them mainly to kill champions before combat was reached, to prevent models from attacking at all if I happened to kill a rank. I also found them helpful against riders on monsters and the like, especially since the Hochland could target outside of what the unit was shooting at.

However for the price, it was a bit too much with not enough pay off. I eventually switched to Rep Handguns for +2 shots and the ability to have a few shots if I needed the unit to move in response to something. Now that Rep Handguns are Move-Or-Fire, that's out the window, but I still find them a bit more useful than Hochlands.


I am trying my hand with the Hochlands again, but in the last 2 games, they did nothing useful; or rather, I did nothing useful with them. I will give it a few more tries, as I think there is a lot of potential in them, but they are quite expensive if you end up not making propper use of them.

D-Archangel
27-03-2009, 16:44
Don't know the full rules for them, but as an avid WE player, who pays 25 points for something quite similar, but as a magic weapon, I say it's a winner.

I'd love to be able to equip my unit champions with a sniper bow/gun

grimhorn
27-03-2009, 17:09
Thank you for the swift replies!

You have helped me make up my mind, Im definitely going to give them a serious playtesting. Mostly I play against Lizardmen and Orcs so I will have weak targets like skink priests and goblin shamans to target.

/ Grimhorn.

O&G'sRule
27-03-2009, 21:43
I think theyre a great thing. Certainly worry me when I see them.

Edit
27-03-2009, 22:09
the chance of shooting the priest off an EoTG is worth the points:)

Angelwing
27-03-2009, 22:45
I reckon they are very cheap for the ability they give you. Fantastic for removing champions and characters, and provide a disruption to the opponents battle plans as characters suddenly have to leave units to hide behind.

mweaver
27-03-2009, 23:19
I haven't played a lot of WH (I mainly play Mordheim), but when I did play a couple of years back it was mainly with an Empire army with two HLRs in it. They were fun. Sometimes they sniped models equal to or greater than their cost, sometimes they didn't. But they made the people I was playing against nervous, and that is generally a good thing.

Devil Tree
27-03-2009, 23:34
I’ve found the main benefit with them is their ability spook your opponent into making mistakes. Beyond that, I wouldn’t expect them to do much besides kill the odd unit champion.

TheDean04
28-03-2009, 03:23
however killing the champ can be a large advantage.

GuyLeCheval
28-03-2009, 08:53
I think sniping a priest of his EOtG is also a game winner :evilgrin:

havoc626
28-03-2009, 11:06
Just to pose a question (I dont know nor need the exact wording of the HLR rules), if the HLR is shooting at a Clan Rat squad with a Warlord in the back rank, can the Warlord be picked out, because the HLR doesnt have LOS to that model? (Assuming the shooting squad isn't on a hill)

W0lf
28-03-2009, 11:16
ofc not havoc. Thats like asking if you can target a model behind a wood with one.

btw for the record to kill 1 HE mage statistically you need;

9 shots-> 3 hits -> 2 wounds.

I find empire missile units are best used detachments which dissalows HLR. They are however incredibly cool.

kris.sherriff
28-03-2009, 11:39
I used to use two in hand gunner units, one on an engineer and one on an outrider champion, a small boost in the number of shoots and they do get a lot better.

Kris

Von Wibble
28-03-2009, 11:43
W0lf - you only need half as many shots to wound and claim half VPs for an enemy mage. A miscast or poor roll for a magic item (eg chalice of malfleur) could do the rest.

There is also a major synergy with Van Horstmann's. By killing the enemy champ you force the powerful enemy character to accept the challenge or retreat to the back of his unit - both excellent results. An overkill of a couple on an enemy champ is not such a good result.

That said, HLRs are more about the potential than the actual result. I tend to just use 1 as a cheap gamble. I don't like them in outriders as it lowers the ability of the unit in its primary role - for me they are better on an engineer (well, if he was ever worth taking they would be!) or handgun champ - I usually have a unit of handgunners with archer and free company detachments.

havoc - I don't think the warlord can be picked out. As you say, the HLR does require LOS.

Edit - 1000th post. Yay!

Vinsanity
28-03-2009, 13:59
I use 3 HLR with warrior priest and arch lector to cast Hammer of Sigmar upon them in the first few turn to give the WP and AL something to do early game. They become much better with the prayer going off. They are very useful ive found at taking out champions and wizards in units, especially with the reroll :P

Mercules
28-03-2009, 17:51
There is another use for HLRs that most people forget about. Warmachines! The crew rarely has any armor or protection so really you just have to hit them. Something like the HE and DE RBTs only have 2 crew and picking them both off leaves a worthless machine sitting there.

I had a Champion in 2 Outrider units each with a HLR. This was a 1k fluffy all mounted Empire force. Up against a VC army I shot the General first turn. He luckily saved one of the 2 wounds and lit out of the unit on his turn and hid. Yes, he healed him, but he then spent the game trying to avoid LoS. My Outriders were able to create zones that the Vampires just would not go into.

Devil Tree
29-03-2009, 07:51
I had a Champion in 2 Outrider units each with a HLR. This was a 1k fluffy all mounted Empire force. Up against a VC army I shot the General first turn. He luckily saved one of the 2 wounds and lit out of the unit on his turn and hid. Yes, he healed him, but he then spent the game trying to avoid LoS. My Outriders were able to create zones that the Vampires just would not go into.

It sounds like you were pretty lucky with your shooting, when I take them they rarely kill anything. Either way, the way he overreacted is the main strength of the HLR. Most of the time they won’t reliably kill anything above toughness 3, but they could theoretically kill your opponent’s expensive uber lord. And that can drive him nuts, wrecking his battle plans.

Lordsaradain
29-03-2009, 13:04
Bring a warrior priest to bless your marksman.
If it is really worth it depends alot on who you face, but generally I think picking off unit champions can be quite good, if your opponent is smart enought to keep his heroes out of LOS.

Crube
29-03-2009, 14:07
Thread moved to Fantasy Tactics

Crube
The Warseer Inquisition

Keller
30-03-2009, 13:51
There is another use for HLRs that most people forget about. Warmachines! The crew rarely has any armor or protection so really you just have to hit them. Something like the HE and DE RBTs only have 2 crew and picking them both off leaves a worthless machine sitting there. Ah yes, HLR's are fantastic for this, especially since they have that 36" range. I might have to start using them again afterall....


Bring a warrior priest to bless your marksman.
If it is really worth it depends alot on who you face, but generally I think picking off unit champions can be quite good, if your opponent is smart enought to keep his heroes out of LOS. Another fantastic idea. I don't tend to use priests as much as I used to, but I think I am going to have to give this a try.

Kerill
30-03-2009, 15:00
I think sniping a priest of his EOtG is also a game winner :evilgrin:

Can they do this, I thought they were limited to sniping a model like ROBI (could well be wrong and empire book not to hand).

Malorian
30-03-2009, 17:09
the chance of shooting the priest off an EoTG is worth the points:)

Reading over the thread this was the first thing that came to my mind. The only problem is the 2+ howda save...

lparigi34
30-03-2009, 17:36
just some mathhammer...

Aimed to the right guy (meaning T3, 5+ AS, no WS), most likely a mage or unit champ.

Pay 25x2 points for the things ,means hitting usually on 6+ (unit marksman BS4 => "3+", -1 per sniper ability -1 per long range), thats 4 hits/game, wounding on 3+ and negating AS means 2,67 Wo per game. 50/2.67 = 18,75

So if you shoot 1Wo champs, to make its point back be sure that its point cost is at least about 19 points. For 2Wo mages seems cheap, since no mage is less that 38pts (no even gobbos).

But a good part of it value is in scaring/limiting the opponent movement/sight options, or causing that extra wound where needed (i.e killing a mage previously wounded by a miscast that otherwise would have survived the battle).

So IMHO, if you have Handgunner units, paying for the upgrade sounds good to me.

Von Wibble
30-03-2009, 19:46
That pretty much is a lengthier version of my post above. But remember that Handgunners can only have them if they are a parent unit themselves. Since missile troops are often better as detachments imo, this tends to limit you to just 1 in handgunners.

I had never thought of blessing the marksman before. I always thought of the reroll as favouring a character with dragon bow.

Does that mean a master engineer with helblaster and hammer of sigmar cast on him can reroll all to hit and wounds for the volley gun? It is presumably him shooting it since the volley gun claims his BS...

lparigi34
30-03-2009, 20:35
Wasn't there a FAQ saying HB does not get the benefit if blessed? Doing that would raise too many brows! :wtf:

Keller
30-03-2009, 20:36
Does that mean a master engineer with helblaster and hammer of sigmar cast on him can reroll all to hit and wounds for the volley gun? It is presumably him shooting it since the volley gun claims his BS... I would think not, since it is still a warmachine attack. It simply uses the highest BS of the crew, which happens to be the Engineer if he joins it.


I am still perturbed Engi's can't take magic items.... I really don't know why exactly, since I don't really use thme anyway; I guess its just the point that he is a hero and can't use items.