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View Full Version : Eldar Weak Troop/Scoring Unit Solution



rcm2216
27-03-2009, 16:46
I got a solution to the Eldar having a weaker selection of troop units in comparison to the other armies that is balanced and fair. Give us back our Craftworlds Codex making possible to have stronger troop units so we can make list that can cope with the likes of Nob Bikers, sternguard, and berzerker focused armies.

The likes of a Biel-Tan elite based armies, or more resilent jetbikers, or a smaller troop selection of Wraithguard would be probable.

I want my craftworld codex back. I just found my old one in storage. At first I loved my New 4th Edition Eldar Codex and thought it was fair and okay. I did not miss my Craftworld Codex or see it as necessary. However, with the advent of the Chaos, Orks, and Space Marines Codicies; I think it would be fair for GW to release a Craftworld so I can build a competitive troop based Eldar Army.

The Space Marine have separate codicies for Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

How many others feel the same that this is an adequate solution?

samiens
27-03-2009, 16:48
Sorry but i think eldar are fine, they just need to protect their troops and find the right balance of units to murder the opponent with- secondly, try the much maligned infantry based eldar around a fortuned avatar- as you only need one model to take an objective the fact taht they won't break can be very useful

rcm2216
27-03-2009, 16:51
Sorry but i think eldar are fine, they just need to protect their troops and find the right balance of units to murder the opponent with- secondly, try the much maligned infantry based eldar around a fortuned avatar- as you only need one model to take an objective the fact taht they won't break can be very useful

You sound like an Ork player, I know you are satisfied........ HEHEHEHE LOL:D

Noserenda
27-03-2009, 16:54
Dire avengers and Rangers are fine...

And the craftworld codex was an unholy mess, and this is coming from someone with 2000pts of Ranger dooom :skull:

mchmr6677
27-03-2009, 16:54
Weak scoring units? Would that be the T6 3+sv Wraithguard of Iyanden, the 2+ save pathfinders in cover of Altaloc, the Dire Avengers of Biel Tan, or the Guardian jetbikes of the Saim Hann?

Fixer
27-03-2009, 16:55
or more resilent jetbikers

Jetbikes are as tough as space marines...

Okay, guardians are weak and dire avengers are infantry specialised but the Eldar are packing the best dedicated transport vehicle in the game which helps make up for these weaknesses.

Alessander
27-03-2009, 16:57
Eldar are an elite army, each unit excels in one aspect but sucks in pretty much everything else. the key is using units in combination for an overall devastating force.

if you want a single unit that can do a lot of things, eldar isn't really the army for you.

the 4th ed codex allows you to do everything that Codex: CW Eldar allowed you to do (elite rangers, troop jetbikes, troop wraithguard), minus the overpowering elements such as infinite warlock "boxing" seer councils, ranger disruption tables or six squads of dark reapers paired with three grav-tanks.

AtnaShadow
27-03-2009, 17:01
While I do agree that a mechanized Eldar force is definitely harder to deal with, largely infantry-based Eldar still seems pretty viable to me as long as you have enough terrain to hop from. Guardians aren't the most effective units, but they can have large numbers and at the very least hold an objective. Jetbikes can be a pretty effective harassment units with their move-shoot-move attack. Rangers are great and once upgraded to Pathfinders are fantastic, able to hold an objective or lay waste to a monstrous creature pretty effectively, not to mention pin the odd thing or two. And Dire Avengers can pump out a sickening amount of firepower.

The main loss I can see for troop-based Eldar is no longer being able to alter to FOC to take all the aspect warriors as troops, which yeah, is a bit of a hit I guess, but hardly seems necessary, the Eldar troops are hardly terrible as it is.

golembane
27-03-2009, 17:03
As an Iyanden player of the current codex, I don't seem to have any trouble locking and holding objectives with my 2x 10 man guardian squads and my 10 man wraithgaurd squad.

Dire Avengers are still my number one troops pick for standard Eldar lists, especially with an Exarch w/ Blade storm and two Shurikats in a wave serpent.

The Eldar codex is a tricky list to put together, but it is hardly weak compared to other forces. It is just a matter of having to find the correct *units* to get the job done, no single unit can stand alone in any circumstance.

Bjornin
27-03-2009, 17:09
I disagree with the OP. Eldar has always been the top bar, the ultimate achievement, for a player like myself. If I can use Eldar effectively, I can count myself as a good player.

Eldar excel in their variety. They, more than any other army, need a balance of different unit types, rather than a specific unit spam, and they play very well this way. If you take Storm Guardians, back them up with Reapers of Warp Spiders. If you want Dire Avengers, take Fire Dragons for the Anti-Armour. Granted these examples may not be the "perfect Eldar tactic" but they enhance my point. By including stronger troop choices, the variety that makes Eldar both effective and enjoyable is lost, as it will be difficult to build the most effective army without spamming these units.

As for the Craftworlds themselves, you can build Saim-Hann, Alaitoc, Iyanden, and Ulthwe. Biel-Tan is difficult to build, but 4 out of 5 isn't bad at all.

In reference to the Wraithguard, if units of 5 could be taken as troops, would anyone take guardians of Avengers? It would happen, but I feel those units would be a rarity.

No, I feel the Eldar codex is still very powerful and effective while also maintaining the ability to create competitive, themed craftworld armies.

stroller
27-03-2009, 17:26
With some reserve, I put "yes" in the poll. I LIKED the fluffiness of craftworlds. However, I disagree with the implication that Eldar have a problem that needs solving. My regular opponent plays Eldar and beats me regularly. They do require skill to use but he wins more often than I do. Yes, he probably is a better player. I like the fluff of craftworld, but I dont actually see a problem.

carldooley
27-03-2009, 17:33
Eldar have 7 choices for troops
1. Dire Avengers
2\3. Guardians\Storm Guardians
4\5. Rangers\pathfinders
6. Guardian Jetbikes
7. Wraithguard

by comparison, the SM codex has 3
1. Tacticals
2. Scouts
3. Scout Bikes

if you can't decide what to put in your army, copy & paste your favorite online list, or play necrons - they only get one choice (or do scarabs count as troops too?).

Captain Micha
27-03-2009, 17:33
Only the Guardian sucks.

SO no, definitely hell no. No more Craftworld Codex no..... never ever.

Eldar in my opinion are the third strongest army right now. They certainly do not need a buff like Cheeseworld would give them.

Ianos
27-03-2009, 17:37
I don't know about a crafworld codex but i could definitely see our leaders and especially Autarchs and Phoenix lords getting updated to allow us fielding one aspect squad as troops. But having like 6 reaper troops for example, would be OTT i think

The_Outsider
27-03-2009, 17:48
This may come as a shock to you: but there are some armies out there that are 90% T3 and aren't in power armour!

Not to mention the OP smacks of someone who wants to play a broken list hidden behind the guise of fluff.

Disruption table? It is fluffy therefore it must be balanced!

Huzzah!

NightrawenII
27-03-2009, 17:58
I don't know about a crafworld codex but i could definitely see our leaders and especially Autarchs and Phoenix lords getting updated to allow us fielding one aspect squad as troops. But having like 6 reaper troops for example, would be OTT i think

Seconded.
Some Named Autarchs or Farseers will be good. We are not (yet) dead!!:)

Grazzy
27-03-2009, 18:14
Eldar do not have weak troops at all. They all have a place in eldar lists - from maxed out bike squads with warlocks to mounted avengers and 2++ pathfinders.


Craftworld eldar is just too open to abuse. Maybe named characters which unlock another unit for troops like in marine codexes.

sabreu
27-03-2009, 18:17
I voted yes, but definitely not like the last one. I'd actually like to see a codex called 'Eldar Corsairs', focusing on the outcasts of eldar societies and how they delve away from the path system.

That would be a different way to play, focus in on new units that aren't just reorginizations of old units (but with a twist!), and instead show the gap of societal difference from craftworld - Dark eldar points of view.

Just my 2 cents as a fellow Alaitoc.

rcm2216
28-03-2009, 19:15
I guest I just wanted a little extra juice. I wil have to figure that a guardian squad is just as good as a platoon of infantry guard.

Creeping Dementia
28-03-2009, 19:29
Um I play Tau, and the Eldar are complaining about underwhelming troop choices? At least you have more than 2 choices. Try playing with Crons or Tau and then get back to me on how Eldar need better troops.

Buddha777
28-03-2009, 19:43
Weak troop choices? Dire avengers are some of the best troops in the game. Backed up by scoring pathfinders and jetbikes I can't see any argument that the eldar codex has a weak troop section in either strength or variety.

Grand Master Raziel
28-03-2009, 20:14
Well, you have Rangers/Pathfinders for sitting on "home" objectives. They're incredibly difficult to shift with shooting (unless it's a flame template weapon), and have a 36" circle of influence.

You've got Guardian Jetbikes, which for some bizzare reason rate a 3+ save when foot Guardians only get a 5+. Being bikers, they get an extra point of Toughness, they can vault over terrain instead of going around or through it, and are able to get extra movement in the Assault phase like Tau Crisis Suits. They're good for harrying and for jumping on objectives in the late game.

You've got Dire Avengers - good Wave Serpent payload, and they score (also, the Wave Serpent itself makes a pretty fair gun tank).

You've (conditionally) got Wraithguard: T6, 3+ save, with guns that can destroy anything in the game (albiet short-ranged ones).

Guardians...well, you might have a point with Guardians. There are Eldar players who swear by Storm Guardians, but Guardian Defenders are kind of meh. GW might have overnerfed them when they put the kibosh on starcannon spam. That said, you've got all those other options in the Troops category to draw from.

As for Autarchs/Phoenix Lords conditionally allowing particular Aspect Warrior squads to become Troops choices - I'm thinking not, or if so certain Aspect Warriors would probably have to be nerfed. Specifically, I'm thinking Dark Reapers here, who would be awesomely effective sitting on a home objective while vaporizing any squad within 48" of them. They'd probably have to lose the 3+ save and get bumped back down to a 4+, otherwise it'd be like the previous Chaos book with Obliterators in the Elites category - completely imappropriate, and without a downside from an army comp standpoint.

EldarBishop
28-03-2009, 20:40
I voted yes, simply because it'd be nice to field a Biel-Tan army without being forced to use 3-4 units of Dire Avengers.

Most of the craftworlds can be easily represented... even something like named character (or PLord) unlocks a certain aspect as a troop choice.

Perhaps limit the really broken ones to 0-1 as Troops (I'm looking at you Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons... because nobody want 4-6 units of scoring Fire Dragons).

Overall, I find it EASIER to field more variety in Aspects (aside from multiple units of Dire Avengers). Given that most aspects got moved around in the FOC (some elites and some fast) . You can take EVERY aspect in your list...

As for Guardian uselessness... just compare Guardians to Dark Eldar Warriors... enough said!

Starchild
28-03-2009, 21:00
How can we forget Farseers in this discussion?

If we learned anything from the old Ulthwe list, it was how to make Guardians horrifically resistant to shooting: casting Fortune on a unit led by a Warlock with Conceal: 5+ rerollable saves (roughly equivalent to 3+ saves) which cannot be negated without template weapons. (The same can done for Avenger squads with a Shimmershield, turning them into an assault tar pit.)

The Fortune + Conceal combo makes Guardians even more durable than Avengers. Too, leading a Guardian squad with an Autarch keeps them from running away (or, just have an Avatar nearby.) And a Wraithlord prevents the Guardians from getting trampled in assaults (or, just have an Avatar nearby :evilgrin:.)

Guardians are still a viable choice; the civilians simply require some help from the other units in the Warhost; then they can happily babysit objectives quite adequately.

Let no one claim that Eldar troops are not resilient. The army list has plenty of options for highly effective objective-takers, so there is no need to re-introduce Gav Thorpe's insanity that was the Craftworld Eldar Codex.

Lord Raneus
28-03-2009, 21:31
If you're complaining about problems with Troops choices, I think Tau, Necrons and Daemonhunters might have something to say about that. :P

Eldar are the only army with T6 basic troops, one of the select few armies with turbo-boosting troops (and theirs can fly through terrain without needing dangerous terrain tests!), they have troops that can sit on an objective in the comfort of a 2+ cover save...what are you complaining about?

Eldar don't have the worst problems with Troops, not by a long shot.

Johnnyfrej
28-03-2009, 21:55
by comparison, the SM codex has 3
1. Tacticals
2. Scouts
3. Scout Bikes
Scout Bikers are Fast Attack normally. However, if you take a Biker Capt'n then both Biker and Scout Biker squads can be taken as troops as long as at least five models are taken per squad. Also, if you take Pedro then your Sternguard count as scoring as well. Therefore, Space Marines actually have potentially five scoring units. But I digress.

I choose "No" because I think the Eldar Codex accurately represents the elite-specialist Eldar without going retardedly overboard with it like the C: CWE.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
28-03-2009, 22:17
I think everybody agrees that Nob Bikers are a step too far, and should be hit with a nerf bat until they wimper like grotz. But the way to deal with them is not by giving everybody a big uber troop unit, that just makes the problem ongoing.

Nor do I think a return to minidexs or flashdexs is the way to go. I'm happier with GW putting their time and resources into the likes of Apocalypse and Planetstrike, rather than variation lists. This way at least everybody benefits and ppl are not complaining that they didn't get a special dex.

If you honestly feel that this is the case and your unhappy about the state of the Eldar Dex. Then I suggest you homebrew a swordwind dex or something similar, sure it's not offical but as long as it's play tested and balanced most ppl won't have a problem with it. But as ppl have already pointed out there isn't much wrong with the Eldar troop selection.

samiens
28-03-2009, 23:12
From right at the start- actually my current army is Tau- so i know a thing or 2 about weak troops choices!

MadJackMcJack
28-03-2009, 23:57
Weak troop choices!? I loath going up against Jetbikes and Dire Avengers. I can never catch the damned bikes, and with bladestorm Dire Avengers can almost match my Shoota boys in volume of fire while being much better shots. Rangers/Pathfinders I rarely have much problem with, but that's because they can never finish off enough boys before they're crushed underfoot. However, I can see them causing real problems for a shooty army.

The only weak choice I see the Eldar having are Guardians, and only because there's other units that can do the same but better. The catapult's short range means they either have to get within charge range and risk getting bum-rushed, or just act as a meat shield for the heavy weapon. Dire Avengers can do the close-range firepower job better, and the various vehicles provide better heavy weapon support. Their only advantage is numbers and the Warlock, and that's costly for an already points-intensive army.

Vaktathi
29-03-2009, 00:02
Mounted Dire Avengers are IMO one of the greatest scoring packages in the game. huge anti-infantry firepower, great maneuverability, solid leadership, some anti-tank possible with the transport, solid survivability, what's not to like?

Wraithguard are probably one of the hardest units to shift off an objective if they get to one, granted they are expensive as hell, but are extremely hard to kill and present a threat to everything but horde units.

Pathfinders with 2+ cover saves? That can ignore all armor saves on roughly half of their inflicted wounds? awesome.

Jetbikes? 3+ save and a 24" turboboost move? Great for hopping objectives or contesting them.

The only dark spot is Guardians, which when mechanized as Storm Guardians aren't bad at all.


Eldar do not lack good scoring/troops options.

Ianos
29-03-2009, 00:06
As for Autarchs/Phoenix Lords conditionally allowing particular Aspect Warrior squads to become Troops choices - I'm thinking not, or if so certain Aspect Warriors would probably have to be nerfed. Specifically, I'm thinking Dark Reapers here, who would be awesomely effective sitting on a home objective while vaporizing any squad within 48" of them.


Only to have a sternguard unit pod them out of the obj, split-take it with both combat squads and then kill all the reapers. Honestly i do not think that with some care the Eldar could not receive a minor troop-formation of the aspects, yet i am still ok with the Eldar as they are.

Instead of a CWE dex, what i would do for the Eldar would be to give guardians a little more heavies per 10 models, as well as other platforms and improve the heavy weapons that need it. Maybe also a price drop on spears and hawks...

Lord Raneus
29-03-2009, 03:09
I wouldn't be complaining about vulnerable, costly troops podding in to take an objective when Eldar have obscenely fast Troops of their own that can easily redeploy across the battlefield. :P

Kalec
29-03-2009, 05:05
I voted yes because I would like to see a properly balanced Codex Craftworld, not because the eldar troops are weak.

sabre4190
29-03-2009, 05:15
As someone who is trying to build a biel tan style eldar list, I do feel a bit restricted. Im forced to take lots of dire avengers, which isnt a bad thing, but it doesnt have the same feel of specialization as the old book.

So I guess I would like something where I could get aspect warriors as troops or scoring units to a degree, but thats almost a stylistic preference and not a game balance issue. From a balance point of view, it is definately possible to take a mix of guardians, rangers, and maybe some DA and have an extremely competent force.

Snotteef
29-03-2009, 16:46
As was said, the Craftworld Codex was a broken mess and all the Craftworlds can be EASILY represented with the current dex. All this "Oh no, I have to take lots of Dire Avengers to play Biel-tan" nonsense is just plain silly. Of course you do. They are the mainstay of the army; the most common aspect by far. You SHOULD have to take lots of Avengers to play Biel-tan.

And the fact that you can represent EVERY single aspect in one force organization tells me that Biel-tan is well represented in the Eldar codex.

This whole thread has already been done before and the result is always the same: most people (on the forums) think that a new Craftworld Codex would be a mistake.

kamedake88
29-03-2009, 17:01
I am starting to play Eldar now on a weekly basis and I got to say I like using them. My one gripe is that it is so poorly organized and unnecessarily obtuse.

I mean come they list all the weapon upgrades with weird names.

what I am saying is, the rules are fine, but the codex needs a better organized and worded reprint.

Poseidal
29-03-2009, 17:48
Eldar have 7 choices for troops
1. Dire Avengers
2\3. Guardians\Storm Guardians
4\5. Rangers\pathfinders
6. Guardian Jetbikes
7. Wraithguard

by comparison, the SM codex has 3
1. Tacticals
2. Scouts
3. Scout Bikes

if you can't decide what to put in your army, copy & paste your favorite online list, or play necrons - they only get one choice (or do scarabs count as troops too?).

Saying Guardians/Storm Guardians and Rangers/Pathfinders are different troops choices is like saying Space Marine Tacticals with a Missile Launcher is a different choice to Tacticals with a Lascannon; they're unit upgrade options.

And you forgot Captain Biker makes SM bikes count as troops.

So it's 5 on 4 in this case.

Kalec
29-03-2009, 18:50
Scout bikers are never troops.

self biased
29-03-2009, 22:13
The Space Marine have separate codicies for Blood Angels and Dark Angels.


which frankly could be rolled into the basic list with a minimal amount of work.

Tarquinn
29-03-2009, 22:24
Eldar are my main army, and I am very happy with the current codex. No change needed.

(The only thing I want are better shuriken catapults, because yeah, the standard guardians are kinda disappointing.)

Tyron
29-03-2009, 22:27
Guardian shuriken catapults should be 18 inches. I really don't understand the play testers at the GW HQ, do they honestly think having Guardians within assault range is a good idea?

Apart from that I have made a big short list on what I believe should be changed for Eldar in their supossed redux.

Warforger
30-03-2009, 02:50
Actually, they would be better off with Las Blasters, take those dreaded inferior weapons from the Aspect Warriors sight. Not to mention it would make more sense, "Hey let's put the more long ranged weapon on a fast unit and the short ranged weapon on a foot unit" not to mention that 12+ sized Guardian squads without transports is just stupid because of there short range.

Other then the Guardians, Eldar are fine IMO, Jetbikes IME annoyingly tough to my opponets (and I play SM and agree that they are also frail...) and can hold objectives pretty well, not to mention a crapload of shuri cannons.

And besides, Pathfinders with there 2+ cover save are more then enough for holding. With the addition of the new codices, Eldar have not really gotten any worsse or better, SM shouldn't really be there.

rcm2216
30-03-2009, 06:18
Well the fans have spoken. Thanks for the polling.