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Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 03:49
As a long term guard player, I'm overall quite pleased by the new shape of the codex.

I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that a lot of the glaring flaws in the previous guard list have been addressed; for example, officers being targetable, the massive overstock of killpoints any guard army (from both officers and platoons), the crowding of the heavy support section with individual tanks.

As for the points costs, invalidation of certain units (e.g. large Vostroyan armies) and so on, I think we really have to wait for the codex. For example, as a Steel Legion player, I'm still waiting anxiously to find out if mechanised platoons are still available, and whether my Chimera's can "merge for the kill" if they're part of a platoon.

Ultimately, I think regardless of the fate of assorted special units, the vast improvement in the feasibility of basic infantry (thanks to three shot lasguns, reasonable costs for basic things like grenade launchers, mortar & Chimeras) and the huge variety and improvement in tank variants add to the core feel of the army. if I had to choose between improvement of the core units of the army (always a weakness in guard) and improvements to special units at the fringe of the game, I'd come down on the side of the core, every time.

Of course, it's a shame it has to be that way. It would be nice if everything in the army was good, but I'm not sure that's ever happened in a codex yet. Even the excellent Marine and Ork codices have clunkers like the Thunderfire cannon. (Before you ask, it's Artillery which means it's an armour ten vehicle that dies to any glance or penetrate. And it's not indrect fire. And it has one crewman, with one wound.)

I was going to post this at the end of the GIANT discussion thread, but realised it's ten thousand pages long, and no-one would read my ahem, wisdom. Also, that thread is mostly about Ogryns and Stormtroopers, but i'd like to broaden the discussion of all the units.

HQ

Company Command Squad:

Pretty much as before. Medic giving feel no pain is a nice addition. The standard is the Re-roll morale checks one, which has been all but mandatory for guard for the last ten years (and a nice model). The orders are interesting; the re-roll to hit on big things is very useful, and the auto-rally order from the C/O is almost worth a vox-net in itself. But more on these in the Platoon section.

The big hit comes from the loss of the leadership bubbles from your officers.

I was glad to see the Guard special characters aren't as overpowering as the marine ones; it sometimes feels with a marine army, if you don't take a special character you're at a diasdvantage. I'd say you're not a proper guard player unless you have a converted senior commander, rather than a series of lieutenant models you interchange ad the boss. Go on, make a new one! The command frame practically insists that you do.

Obviously, it's on the command sprues now, but for Steel Legion I use one of the Lieutenants, with his sword removed, and replaced with the Blood Angel honour guard flag as a standard. As for an officer, I've converted a female Steel Legion officer using loads of parts, including the torso and head from the Escher heavy plasma gunner, with the Steel Legion commissar legs. This model also uses gaunt's entertainly dainty arms, and I'm often asked "How did you make the arms so feminine looking?".

Seriously, having a nicely converted officer who is ALWAYS the C/O is one of the most entertaining things about Guard; don't fall into the trap of one metal Lt, and any 4 guardsmen from the case as your HQ. It's a great opportunity to add character to your army.

Commissar Lord:
Interesting; useful leadership aura, but I'm not sure it will make up for officers losing the leadership rule. Also suffers from being the only targetable Guard officer. Any ideas on what his modifications to the army are?

Regimental Advisors:

A flat cost of 30 seems odd for these.

Bodyguards are too expensive if they're 30 points; that's just a fact. They should be lovely models though; so characterful for Guard officers to have that mean sergeant to look after them. Perfect conversion opportunity. Personally, I've done a Steel Legion sergeant with two pistols from the Slick Devlan sprue, and a huge backpack from the old ork gorkamorka looter special character.

The Astropath is useful with lots of scouts, probably not worth it otherwise; the fleet master seems a bit too lame to use, but both will lead to lovely conversions. I'm using an old stormtrooper sergeant (the carapace armoured one with the auspex and plasma pistol), with a mordian head for my fleet master. I can see these being 30 points each.

The master of Ordnance will be absolutely mandatory at 30 points. He's basically a thirty point basilisk. I'm not even sure he's easier to kill than a basilisk, as he can hide pretty well in 90% of games. He's like the Celestial wizard of 40k:)

It needs to be a guy with all kinds of sighting gubbins; I can recommend the parts from the Tamiya 88mm guns for all kinds of silly sighting gubbins, plus of course a suitably huge radio.

Other Advisors

Primaris Psyker:

He's very expensive but cool. Lightning arc could be ok, could be rubbish; can't tell without knowing the range on it. Strength 3 force weapons are like buying lottery tickets.

Probably not going to be in tournament lists, but will lead to some a nice model gathering dust in most people's collections; he's like the new enginseer, cool, very 40k but too expensive to use really.

I'm using a necromunda telepath with his staff top having one Chaos prong removed and replaced with the I with and Eye in it from a standard sanctioned psyker.

Commissars:

Stubborn and Summary execution are awesome on platoons that have "merged for the kill" in kill points missions; also awesome for making your tarpit squads (e.g. conscripts) not break and run from combats they lose. I've been consistently annoyed by conscript squads which could reliably hold up assault troops for 3-4 turns in the previous edition instantly kerploding from losing combats by two or three.

I think a summary execution on the base is almost mandatory for these. My old steel legion commissar is inspired by this picture, and yes, I do have the heretic on the base:)

Ministorum Priest:

45 points? Sigh. Personally, I think the old sanctioned Psi was the way to go with cool 40k background characters. Make them cheap and a bit rubbish, so you see them all the time. Sadly, the priest is expensive, and in the context of the guard army, poor.

He might be worth it, if you can put him anywhere in the army; maybe rerolling misses on a charging conscript squad with commissar is worth it... I hope you can put the priest in conscripts; he practically begs for a bunch of loser redemptionists to follow him around.

I doubt I'll use mine, which is a shame, as putting a goggled Steel Legion helmet on the old beardy priest with eviscerator took a while:)

Elites

Psyker Battle Squad
Interesting and Cool. Will have to test the effectiveness in games, but early tests say they get one big spell on turn one, then get hosed by looters. It wasn't a very effective test game, lets say:) Bloody Orks.

Anyway, I'm planning on modelling them as ten psykers chained together, or possibly ten psykers in a cage, being electrocuted by their overseer. The planned conversion will be using the Sisters Repentia with eviscerators replaced with staves.

Any other suggestions for these guys?

EDIT:- New test game demonstrates the leadership drain + mortars is pin-city. Pretty useful. Main problem is, they are basically a guard squad; maybe worth using the Psi-Lord to lead them for Nightshroud +Ld drain?

Stormtroopers:
These are probably the most controversial change in the list, moving from army mainstay and cheap troop choice for "hyper efficient" armies to the elites they perhaps always should have been. I was shocked at the AP3 at first; I was thinking they'd be amazing if priced at current costs.

As it stands, I think they're still good. The three methods of special deployment (Scout, Infiltrate and Deep Strike) means they are very tactically flexible. I think alot of people are missing the hellpistol and combat weapon in their equipment; it means they can often shoot AP3 guns and then charge.

As for "is the AP3 effective", well, they are BS4, and Math-hammer says they do beat marines in the open a firefight if they start 12" away and shoot first. (First round, 4 marines die on average, 6 marines shoot back, kill 3 Stormtroopers, then three marines die, then 1-2 stormtroopers die, then the marines are either wiped out or have one man left.)

Of course, that's unlikely to happen; the marines could be in cover, which ruins the whole thing, or have a heavy bolter, which ruins the whole thing, or could not be idiots and charge the stormtroopers, but the point stands; they are good at killing marines in the open.

Of course, things like the Russ do that well as well, but the stormtroopers are a good "fire brigade" unit for thing like assault marines. They do make it more difficult for MEQ players to advance, as the STs can infiltrate to cover blind spots Russed can't reach and hose marines. And deep strike with that much AP3 hammers Crisis suits, Eldar aspects, all kinds of things that aren't marines.

Again, you could use a Basilisk to do that. But then you'd be boring.

Basically, I think Stormtroopers are a bit like old orks with choppas; worth it against MEq, but less useful and a bit too expensive against everyone else. of course, since something like 70% of players are MEq, that skews things.

FAQ time - They have "Hot-shot Lasguns"; are they eligible for the Lasgun fire order? Thoughts?

Techpriest Enginseer
Hopefully, he's cheaper, but I doubt it. The lack of a chimera doesn't matter, as the rules have changed so he can ride in any squad's Chimera. I suppose, when the Machine God's representative asks to borrow your tank, you give it to him:)

I'd still like him to have combat servitors, but it looks like they've gone. They were crippled by the powerfist changes anyway, losing half their attacks, but I liked them for fun games. For techno servitors I use 4 or 5 servo skulls floating on a base.

Ogryns:
Stubborn and T5 makes them a very good tarpit, removes their big weakness of being owned by marine powerfists but... 200 points for a squad of five makes them very expensive - like, grey knight expensive. Weapon skill 5 is the thing most people are ignoring here; they hit most troops on threes now, which is a bit deal. They are also hit on 4s by most things, which makes them much tougher.

They are about as tough as Grey Knights; 3 wounds, T5 and and a 5+ save is often around longer than T4 and a 2+ but one wound. It's situational as to which is tougher in combat; things that ignore armour will own GKs, whereas lots of St4/5 hits will nail Ogryns.

These things kill four marines on the charge on average (14 hits/12 wounds); but they will do 12 wounds on average, and that can be a world of pain for a marine player who rolls badly. They are the best thing I've seen for taking out terminator titanhammer squads in the guard list. And remember, that 12 wounds on MEq is ten dead Orks. Still, the Ork counter-charge won't be nice for the Ogryns.

They do absolutely own S3 troops though; wounding things with on sixes is a nightmare. Tau even hit them on 5s:) I'd say they're a viable combat unit; they are tough in an unusual way in combat, work like nothing else in 40k, and can win combats on the charge, by doing lots of damage, and taking little. Remember, not included in any math-hammer I've seen is the fact they fire 5 heavy bolters on the charge.

I think they're worth trying, at the very least.If the Bonehead had a powerfist, for example, EVERY tournament army would use them.

I use a converted squad of Blood Axe ork nobz (traitors! They obviously saw Ghazhkull was a loser) as Ogryns in my Steel Legion; I've seen nice conversions of them from Ogre bulls.

Ratlings:
Pretty much as ever. I always feel they're a holdover from old 40k;HOBBITS IN SPACE! I've never understood why they were on the Steel Legion doctrines list!

Troops

Imperial Guard Platoon
1 command squad and 2 infantry squads
Plus
0-3 Infantry squads
0 - 5 heavy weapons squads
0 - 2 special weapons squads
0 - 1 Conscript Platoon

Platoon Command Squad:
4 special weapons is the way to go here.4 snipers and an Officer is an interesting choice; I think the most effective equipment for this unit in current 40k is a heavy flamer and 3 flamers, as an odd form of counter assault unit, although a pair of meltaguns is tempting for tank hunting.

The orders are interesting, but not THAT useful; real guard players know just how effective an extra 8 lasgun shots are; that's to say, they are effective at wasting your opponent's time. of course, it's the effect across the army we Guard player care about, and 50% more Lasgun shots is nice. I think the shooty shooty order will be the one I use the most.

It does a good job of making up for the basic weakness of a Str 3 gun in 40k, with a three shot basic weapon with Str 3 being relatively respectable.

3 dice for runs is nice, makes running for objectives with foot guard armies more viable.

I play with enough terrain on the board and hate losing shooting enough I don't think I've ever Gone to ground; making it a 5+ doesn't make it much more appealing, especially as

Infantry Squad:
The "merge for the Kill" rule is cool, and corrects the hideous weakness of Guard in Kill point missions. Of course, I'll still be in trouble with all those Chimeras (let me squadron them? Please?) but most of you will benefit tremendously from this.

The increase in the cost of Plasma, and the increased availability of AP2 elsewhere in the army makes me wonder if we'll see less Plasma guns. Personally, I doubt it.

Still, a sensible cost for mortars and grenade launchers makes 60 point two template squads very tempting.

EDIT: - The doctrines are gone, per se, but you can still do competitive versions of those armies - the light infantry/Jungle fighters (and Jungle fighters was always a rubbish light infantry/Cameleoline in my eyes), warrior weapons, & carapace armour regiments can be done using veterans as troops (see below).

There is apparently an officer upgrade to give you stormtroopers as troop choices, and the Drop troop Deep Striking army can be done by giving everyone in the army a Valkyrie to fly around in.

This is a good thing; it stops all those people with unpainted cadians going "yeah, these guys are totally drop troops...", but does impact on those who've been using termites to deliver Special weapon team like me (sob sob, back in the cabinet for you, precious tunneler), or those with drop troop armies who don't want to spend several hundred pounds on Valkyries.

Admittedly, things like Bionics are gone, but can be easily represented by carapace armour etc. The Morale doctrines are well covered by things like Voxes (By giving the auto-rally order down the Vox; more useful the more I think about it) or Commisars (to give you stubborn to make you hard to break in combat). If you don't want to use a Commissar model, call him a crimelord or an enforcer or something in your Savlar chem dogs:)

Hardened fighters can be done using one of the special characters (The chap who gives you Catachan Devils), back up by the monstrously hard Iron hand Straken or the Penal troops below.

Oh, and if any Pretorian player winges about the loss of Close Order Drill, tell him there's nothing to stop him deploying in ranks if he wants to, he just doesn't get superhuman stats for it.

It's certainly not true that Guard armies are "one dimensional" now; you have as much variety, you just can't layer the doctrines and have light infantry deep striking carapace armoured guardsmen in close order drill in platoon strength and we've all seen that army. Admittedly, that may be a problem for people who relied on all of those things,but that's always the risk of playing at the fringes of the codex.

As for modelling, the only difficulty I have with Infantry squad modelling is differentiating between squads in battle. With cadians, shoulder pad markings are doable, but has anyone come up with a good method for Steel Legion? Or other Guard? At the moment, I colour code the underside of the base, but that's not an on-the-model insignia.

Heavy Weapons Squads:
The major change here is Mortars. 60 points for three mortars sounds like a bargain to me, and the new blast rules means they're much better against things you used to use heavy bolters on. Orks and other guard will hate these.

The big let down of making them two wound bases is they can get atuokilled. While I'm looking forward to gunning down autocannon squads left right and centre with multilasers, I doubt you'll say many direct fire weapon teams, which is a shame. The Ld of 7 won't help with this either.

I think I'll get some of the cool Elysian Drum fed mortars with Steel legion crews, as the Cadian mortar is a bit underwhelming and the old mortar looks like it was designed by a cartoon supervillain to fire tank shells.

Special Weapons Squads:
A couple of flamers and a Demo Charge was my old mix for these units; I think I'll stick with it. They make cheap and effective counter assault units. You hide them, then jump out in front of the assault squad/terminators. Remember to shout "Surprise!" when you throw the AP2 Bomb.

The best way to do demo charges I've found is to use a multitude of grenades from the cadian sprues to create a huge bandolier of grenades; on a squad of siegemasters, I greenstuffed bundles of dynamite, which is easy as well, although it looks a bit low-tech.

Just roll small sausages of greenstuff, cut them flat at the ends, use bent paperclips/fuse wire to twist into a fuse, and voila, a butch and sundance style dynamite bomb is yours.

Btw, the new Blast scatter rules can lead to amazing olympic quality throws from guardsmen; who needs demolishers?:)

Conscripts:
The new rules have made these incredibly fragile, because they are so squidgy and have such low leadership. They used to be a reliable tar pit, but now they're reduced to a speed bump (still useful, but quite expensive for that), unless they can have commissars attached.

As for the "why not have Guard instead argument", the point with conscripts is all you want is Bodies. they are just as tough as guardsmen; of course, the LD of 5 will be much more of a nightmare now officers don't give you leadership. Still, for what you use them for, that is to say, getting shot, being assault speedbumps, they do the same job, 20% cheaper. And that can mean the difference between say, a Leman Russ and a Demolisher.


I'll continue this long ramble in a reply to this...

Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 03:50
Veteran Squads:
The new armoured fist squad; home of the cheap troop choice for the list; the new home of all of those doctrine guard armies, such as Carapace armoured ones, Camo Cloak ones & Light Infantry ones. I'm fairly hard pushed to see a common doctrine army you can't do with the new list by using this entry, or a couple of the others, as explained above.

As for Vostroyan armies, I doubt I've ever seen a carapace one with more than sixty-five guard in it; if you are in that unfortunate position, there's nothing to stop you from using them as normal guard - in fact, lots of the Vostroyan players I know do that anyway. Just assume the armour is a 5+, and wonder why you don't use vests like those manly Catachans.

I find the best way to differentiate the veterans quickly, with the minimum of effort is by giving them huge packs, to represent all the things they've looted over the years. There are lots in the Necromunda range; also, the new cadian and catchan command sprues have lots of backpacks and so on.

If you're giving them a Chimera, cover it in stowage. Tamiya do a bunch of good stowage and backpack sets; I use the ones from the "modern US equipment" set.

Penal Legion:
The modeller in me finds it disappointing to have a random roll which determines equipment. The gamer in me find it disappointing to have a unit with A RANDOM ROLL CHART NOW WE AREN'T IN THE 1980s!! LEARN GAMES WORKSHOP! LEARN!!!!!!! Sigh. Rant over.

These are a short range/combat unit; they will do some damage if they roll rending. The stubborn makes them a decent combat speed bump. They are also a good way of doing Warrior Weapons/Hardened fighter guardsmen if you are one of the four people who play with that list.

If I was going to convert these, I think the FW renegades might be good options, as would conversions that look a bit like the old Kanak skull takers using bits from the Chaos marauders box. Or Hive gangers from Necromunda.

A friend uses Kroot with huge Zulu shields in his Pretorian army ("Zoot", according to him:) It strikes me these are a good way of doing alien mercenaries of assorted kinds. Maybe Squat cyber-slayers?:)
Transports

Chimera:
My favourite tank in the list; I have to say that as a Steel Legion player. Ultimately, 55 points is a much more realistic cost for them than the 97 point ones I've been using since 2003. Still, the 97 point ones moved and fired their heavy bolters.

Part of me thinks the best fit on them is Multilaser/Heavyflamer/Heavy Stubber as you can move every turn, and only switch to the flamer up close.

Having 5 models able to shoot out is a good solution to the spanish galleon arrangement of the hull mounted lasguns. Mobile Command vehicle enables you to operate at a distance from the chain of command, which is nice.

As for conversions, I find 2 warmaster bases on pieces of sprue on each flank of the tank make cheap extra armour that looks good; you can do it with plasticard, but I like the simplicity of using pieces of plastic cut to size by a machine that doesn't make mistakes. I might be stripping it off my Chimeras for this codex; it's just a bit too expensive.


Fast Attack

Rough Riders:
At eleven points a man, I'm not really blown away. They were competitive as a combat unit with power weapons, if a bit good for Guard in combat. The loss of the power weapon is a heavy nerf.

I have five, without lances, which I used to use with meltabombs as a shock tank hunting unit to dash up to landraiders and blow them up. Sure they have krak grenades and always hit the rear armour now...but that's not much good. They're Ok for vehicle hunting. But as a normal combat unit... they don't compete with conscripts or Ogryns.

I use five guys on old school 1st ed 40k Jetbikes, which fit in well with the High tech feel of a Steel Legion army. They look cool, but until we get better models, I can't see anyone bothering to convert things to use these disappointing rules.

EDIT:- The suggestion is now that they keep their Power Weapon lances, so those suicide squads are fairly good. Once per game.

Recon Sentinel Squadron:
Still good, 35 points with a multilaser sounds like a bargain. The Missile launcher seems expensive compared to the other weapons costs.

I don't like the Missile launcher on the plastic sprue; I've found that a pair of Typhoon launchers on either side of the sentinel cockpit look better. Yeah, I'm the sort of person who converts models he doesn't think are that good in the game:)

Spearhead Sentinel Squadron:
Armour 12 on the front and closed top for 20 points. Interesting. Most important thing is it makes them immune to heavy bolters, which are death to regular sentinels. They make a good pairing with chimeras, but we'll have to wait and see what the weapons costs are like to see if they're worth it in tournaments.

Obviously, as an old school Steel Legionnaire, all my sentinels have closed tops; which seems a good way of showing assault sentinels for now.

Fast Tanks Squadron

Hellhound:
A cut in range and the addition of fast is a good change for this tank, IMHO. Although I'm sure boring basilisk fans will disagree. I like the fact it has to close to use it's gun; it fits the background much better. Fast makes these tanks much harder to assault; note the hull mount is a FLAMER, not a heavy flamer, so it's a defensive weapon (heehee).

Move this at 12" a turn, every turn, set fire to stuff. It's cool. I like these new hellhounds.

Banewolf:
Marines will whine about this for years, but it's not THAT good. It will be a magnet for shots from marine players, especially marine players with assault squads. It's nice and fast, but has to be in your face to work. It's basically the 3rd edition Hellhound. I liked those.

The main gun is strength one, so it's a defensive weapon; sadly, wound allocation makes the Chem cannon/heavy flamer combo worse than it should be.

(Assuming you hit a squad of 6 Marines with the chemical cannon, you will kill 5 on average. If you add 6 hits from a heavy flamer, causing 4 wounds, your opponent can stack 5 unsavable wounds on 3 marines, making the tank kill less on average than if he had only fired the chemical cannon. SIGH. Wound allocation is probably the worst thing in new 40k; still, the thing's awesome vs 4+ and 2+ troops - but yes, as usual, more guns makes you worse.)

I'm using the FW pattern hellhound as a banewolf; just add a paintjob that suggests the tank of goo is evil in the extreme. Note, that this can be combined with the Deathstrike to give you an authentic Nuclear/Biological/Chemical war crime of an army!

Devil Dog:
Decent, very fast moving tank hunter; i'm converting mine's turret mount from the inquistor multi-melta.

Haven't tested this yet; suspect it will be good at spoiling the fun of people who like landraiders. It's Blast, so even if you scatter, the Landraider is so big, you're almost bound to hit it. The speed also makes it good for neutralising indirect firing boring cannons fired by boring people:)

Valkyrie squadron

Valkyrie: It's the all singing all dancing new thing. The Hellstrikes means it competes with the Russ for points, the troop carrying, skimmer survivability and speed means it's an awesome Wave Serpent beater. Remember, you can pick up ANY squad in it under the new rules, and troops in transports can score.

I can see alot of games being won by squads being picked up in Valkyries, and the Valk hovering on unclaimed objectives on the last turn.

Vendetta:
3 Twin linked lascannons! THREE!! for 130 points! If that's true, this thing is awesome for tank and especially monster hunting. It is vulnerable if it slows down to fire all three though. Still, it's probably the most cost effective tank hunter in the army, and combined with the speed, maybe the best tank hunter in the game? Can you say rear armour? Can you say I can see your whirlwind now?

And you can DS a squad off it! All comments about the Valkyrie Drop win apply to this.

Despite the transport capacity, I think this is a great opportunity to use a Vulture in normal 40k; it even comes with the underwing lascannons, and you could easily mount lascannons in the chin.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Squadron
If this is a vehicle squadron, it's interesting how that will have an impact on killpoints; does anyone know for sure?

Leman Russ Battle Tank:
The baseline tank; take it rather than a shiny variant unless you have a good reason. Oh, and name it too! I tend to name mine after ex-girlfriends...

Leman Russ Demolisher:
AP2 Strength 10. A classic for a reason. I find people either like this, and hate basilisks, or vice versa. Personally, I think it all comes down to how often you play on 4x4 boards. On a small board, the demolisher is King; on a bigger board it chugs away, and gets maybe one shot per game. I always take one, just to keep Deep striking marine players honest.

Leman Russ Exterminator:
Heavy 4 twin linked makes it similar to the Hydra; the move and fire ability of the Russ, and the armour 14 make it better, but much more expensive. Awesome vs. light vehicles, but so are lots of cheaper options. A lot better, it's certainly motivating me to paint one of the sweet forge world bofors-type ones, but probably still not a feature of hard efficiency driven tournament lists.

Leman Russ Vanquisher:
AP 2 is nice, but the real question is can it still use regular battlecannion rounds? If so, it's awesome for the cost; if not it's an expensive but useful tankhunter/monster hunter with a Lascannon on the centreline.

Buy the Forgeworld model instead of using a biro to extend the barrel:) Or use the Basilisk barrel if you've been making Medusas.

Leman Russ Eradicator:
This is basically a Hellhound upgrade; the tank for people that liked the last codex hellhound. The large ignore cover blast with a longer range and armour 14 makes it amazing against some targets (Orks, Eldar aspects, other Guard, did I mention Orks?), a bit meh against MEQ.

I've converted one by using an old hellhound nozzle on an LR turret, and having it attached via Guitar wire tubes to a Forgeworld Fuel Bowser.

Leman Russ Punisher:
20 shots, plus the all but mandatory heavy bolters, will be fun to roll. It's comparably costed with units with a similar number of shots (e.g. three Chimeras with heavy stubbers roll 27 instead of 29 dice, and if rumors are believed, cost about the same - 195 to 180), but I think it's about as good as a Russ, for 30 points more.

The distinction is the punisher will always generate SOME damage on infantry, whereas as real guard players know, the Russ will often miss totally. Not sure this guaranteed damage is worth the loss of the flexibility of the battlecannon as an anti-vehicle shot or those sweet AP3 blasts in the open.

Convert it using the left over Gattling barrels from your shadowswords:)

Leman Russ Executioner:
Will need testing in games. A couple of experiments with my plasma sponson X (a relic of VDR) has shown me it's pretty awesome when putting down 5 templates a turn. The share spread of templates (5 AP2 blasts!) guarantees some damage on whatever you're firing, but it's very expensive. Worth noting it's much better at shooting monstrous creatures than any other tank.

I'm going to gamble and guess alot of use for the Leman Russ X.



Artillery

Basilisk: The baseline artillery piece, against which all others have to be judged. I find guard players either love or loathe them. I'm sure they'll see use, as they've had the same statline for ten years and still turn up in tournament armies.

Medusa: Strength 10, AP one and AP two always command respect, but I'm sure most players who like artillery won't like it being direct fire. It's a great tank killer; make sure you get the first though.

Hydra: 4 shots rerolling misses for 75 points is cheap and cheerful; good for chopping up light vehicles. Nice model too. Depending on the special AA rules, might be even better. Foregworld, or conversions from things like 1/35 wirbelwind kits.

Colossus: Seems expensive; you're mostly paying for the range, which 90% of 40k gamers won't use. Can't see why you'd have this over a basilisk, unless you want variety in your gunline. Probably a good excuse to use a counts as Bombard, until forgeworld release it.

Serious problem on small boards, as must fire indirect and has a long minimum range.

EDIT:- I missed the fact it ignores cover (Thanks Lord Cook). So, basically, it's the artillery of choice vs. Light Infantry in cover. Tbh, this is the artillery equivalent of the Leman Russ eradicator, and all the comments that apply to the Eradicator apply to this. I reckon the demolisher fans will take the eradicator, the Basilisk fans will look up from their copies of Jane's All the world's Trainspotting: The Brown edition with glee at the Colossus. Have you noticed I'm not a fan of indirect fire yet?:)

Griffon: Strength 4 seems a bit wet. I've never really liked it, even when it was strength 6. I can't help but feel a mortar Squad does about the same for less points (on a regular table) and a more potent artillery piece would be only a small increase in points, for a big boost in effect. I'm not even a fan of either the old model or the new forgeworld ones.

Manticore: The strength 10 barrage makes it an awesome tank Killer, but the AP4 is a bit of a let down against MEqs. Still the D3 templates will be lovely vs. Orks. Compares favourably to the Basilisk, in my opinion - each has it's strengths and weaknesses. Use the forge world one, or order individual missiles for a conversion.

Deathstrike: Fun, I'm sure you'll see a million ugly conversions on every 14-year old's gaming table. I reckon the best way to convert one will be a coke bottle filled with expanding foam, filed off and then with Balsa fins. Not one for the tournament player I think, as it's random launch is a bit too unpredictable.

Wow, that was long... anyway, any suggestions on modelling things in particular are appreciated; hope this helps some people thinking about starting Guard with the new book, or old vets thinking about what to do next.

Da King
28-03-2009, 04:09
Apparently RR keep their lances actually, but I'm not going to be completely sure until I see the codex. If they do keep them they got a lot nicer.

I'm going to have a lot of fun converting a Master of Ordnance. I'll probably use a vox caster and a bunch of stuff from the vehicle sprues to make one.

I really don't care how unreliable the Deathstike is, it's worth it just for the look on your opponents face. Converting that is going to be a lot of fun.

I can't wait for the new codex for all the possible new lists you can take. I think one of the first I'll try is an artillery list with ~100 guardsmen and as many artillery pieces I can stuff in after that. A mechanized list backed up with a bunch of the new hellhounds sounds like it will be fun too. Finally, and I don't care how badly I lose trying this, I want to run a CC guard list, filled with hundreds of conscripts, priests, commissars, and fun.

Torga_DW
28-03-2009, 04:25
Didn't they fix the targetting officers thing with the main rules in 5th? I'm hearing a lot about the IG, good and bad. I'm taking it all with a grain of salt until i get it in my hands, make up a list and see how things look from there.

Frep
28-03-2009, 04:27
Looks like a fairly decent summary, but theres a flaw in your logic for the storm troopers, certainly they'll mow down the space marines in a straight on fire fight, but any marine player with a brain will charge those stormtroopers not stand there and shoot back. Someone did the mathhammer on the ensuing combat phase, and I think over two rounds of combat the stormtroopers are either all dead or in all likelyhood fleeing.

EDIT: PS. Your Leman Russ eradicator model idea is awesome

Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 04:29
@ Torga

The officer targeting is a bit of a grey area; it's not clear if the squad he comes with is a retinue, as defined by the codex. The FAQ suggests they can be targeted at the moment.

The certainly give a kill point each at the moment, giving the basic Guard troops choice of a platoon 4 KPs - One for the Lt, one for the Lt's squad, one for each ten man squad.

Meaning your minimum KP in the 2003 Guard codex is 8 KPs (HQ unit 2, Platoon 4, Armoured fist squad 2) and that's with under 400 points of troops. I'm very, very, very glad it's being fixed.

@ Frep

I did point out it was an unrealistic state of affairs for the marines to just sit and take it; it's frankly unrealistic they won't have a heavy weapon. It's just an example to demonstrate they are good for killing MEq troops in the open.

Torga_DW
28-03-2009, 04:34
Its only grey if you're playing with jerks. He HAS to take those 4 other guys, therefore they are a retinue. Now marines and honour guard, thats a grey area.

Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 04:37
Sadly, as a regular UK GT tournament player, I often play jerks.

Torga_DW
28-03-2009, 04:40
I hear you. :(

Frep
28-03-2009, 04:44
Oops well I feel a bit stupid right now, stupid self enforced sleep deprivation. Sorry bout that. One other thing, is the griffon really only strength four in the guard summary it looks to be str 6 ap 4, that to me would be a decent option now but still not an automatic. That`s what I like about the new guard codex nothing seems to be a mandatory choice, even stuff like vendettas have to compete with some nasty options, hellhound and friends or roughriders

shaun03
28-03-2009, 04:58
Steel Legion for Life; for penal legion i am going to vraks enforcers. the renagades are cool but i like the enforcers for the penal legion. I am waiteing for vol 3 of varks to come out and then i am going to pick some enforcers for penal legion.
On the rr keepting there lances that would be great. They were one unit that could earn there points back and than some. I hope they dont get weeker. Yeah the rr models suck now. But my whole army is DKOK so i like the look of mine. Theres a few on ebay for a ok price.
On to the master of ordnance that will be worth the 30. Maily because i feild a arty style army. But a droping a pie plate every turn is nice. For mine i was takeing the qutermaster and re work him a bit. Also if you take a squar base paint bleach bone get a map pen. You can make a nice feild map.

Vote Kantor
28-03-2009, 05:21
Thankyou soooooo much SLFL, this is a great summary, and much easier than the INFINITE ROUNDUP if the RR statline is any good, i will convert a squad using Dark elf Cold one knights- so far it looks like it will work- and just great looking models anyway.

I LIKE THE NEW TANKS- too bad ill only see a few of them due to the cost thing- great concepts for your convertions btw.

Lord Cook
28-03-2009, 11:21
Good summary, 'twas an enjoyable read. However you missed the point on the Colossus. The shot ignores cover, making it the premier heavy infantry hunter. That's why it's so expensive.

The Highlander
28-03-2009, 11:26
You missed one vital point, the complete loss of doctrines. All those carapace, grenadier, light infantry and deep strike armies are now gone, we have gone back to the bad old days of one dimension guard armies.

feelnopain666
28-03-2009, 12:00
So, I can say goodbye to my Vostroyan army?
Its that kind of thing that's really getting into my nerves! That politics of destroying variations for the sake of competitive tournaments armies is one of the worst decisions by GW. Its good to see that, no matter how much money we spend, they have absolutelly no consideration for the costumer!

Bloodknight
28-03-2009, 12:52
What's the problem with Vossies? They're still Guardsmen. Yep, the models wear carapace armour; I'd just assume that it's sheet metal with a protection close to flak armour, not ceramite carapace. They use wooden flamers after all ;). A 5+ save goes both ways, modelwise. Catachans and Mordians on the weak 5+ and Vossies on the hard 5+ sides ;)

Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 13:39
@Lord Cook - Ah, I guessed there was probably something about it worth having; the version of the summary I printed out didn't have that on it. I blame the poor quality of the Printers at the BBC:)

I'll edit the post and add that in. Thanks!

@Highlander & FeelnoPain - The doctrines are gone, per se, but you can still do competitive versions of those armies - the light infantry, warrior weapons & carapace armour versions can be done using veterans as troops, there is apparently an officer upgrade to give you stormtroopers as troop choices, and the Drop troop Deep Striking army can be done by giving everyone in the army a Valkyrie to fly around in.

I'll edit the post and put those concerns in.

It's certainly not true that Guard armies are "one dimensional" now; you have as much variety, you just can't layer the doctrines and have light infantry deep striking carapace armoured guardsmen. Admittedly, that may be a problem for people who relied on all of those things,but that's always the risk of playing at the fringes of the codex.

Captain Micha
28-03-2009, 13:46
You missed one vital point, the complete loss of doctrines. All those carapace, grenadier, light infantry and deep strike armies are now gone, we have gone back to the bad old days of one dimension guard armies.

Not true.

Those are all Vet Squad upgrades. (Well DS isn't and thank heavens for that)

The idea is that the "most infamous" regiments with special training on troops would make them a little better than Boot Camp Joe Guardsmen. (The normal Shock trooper) They aren't going to just train them in the ways of stealth, give them heavy armor without training them better than Boot Camp did first. (It's an expensive investment after all!) Carapace armor is actually called Granadiers in the codex I believe and it, Camo Cloaks & Move through Cover, and Demolitions are a 30 pt upgrade for the squad.

Personally I see Vostroyans as having Vet Squads in the Troops. Same with the other Granadiers /4+ Troop Guards.

Tanith is still easy to do as is Catachan in my opinion.

And of course we still have Cadia.

I think I heard that -every- squad can have a Chimera Transport somewhere unless otherwise noted. So Steel Legion is still there as well.

In addition to all of the most Famous Guard Archetypes that we have, we also have gained more or less Lost And The Damned or Traitor Guard... or heck we've even gained a Psychic Guard.

Conscripts + Priests+ Primaris Psyker Lord? Can we say great Chaos Cultist list here? Just add tentacles!

Bonus points if you field the Psyker Elites (the actually gifted with Chaos powers guys) or Ogryn as Mutants.

On the flip side you can have a Psychic Guard patrol with the Primaris + the Elites Psykers + whatever else you want to throw in here. I can just envision all of the conversion opportunity here. There's just so much I don't know where to start thinking about this.

And then there's the multitude of combinations in this codex, you could even have a Rizah Mechanicum List if you wanted, thanks to the Plas Cannons being on Sentinels, -and- all Leman Russes. In addition to that we have a Leman russ that fires a heavy 3 Plasma cannon on it's turret and we still got the Enginseer!

There's also still the Tallarn list that you can field! I think Guardsmen riding Giant Lizards would be awesome here.

Then there's Elysia! You can actually do Elysia now with the default Dex! Valkyries and Vendettas anyone? I'm pretty sure some day I will be buying those FW kits (the grave chutes and masks).

To say nothing of the loads of SCs we've gained.

If anything I'd say we have gained variety with this codex.

Sure there's some real Stinkers
like the new Vox rules
and Ogryn.

Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 14:55
@Micha

As mentioned above, I think there's at least a prima facie case from trying Ogryns, and remember for a lot of armies, a vox/Mobile command vehicle is 50% more firepower, rally below half strength and all the other orders.

I reckon you will certainly see people try both, and access to the Vox-net is free for the Squads (e.g. Stormtroopers); combined with the re-roll cover save order, and AP3 guns, I think it's pretty tempting.

Captain Micha
28-03-2009, 15:25
I don't think Stormtroopers get the perk of Orders sadly....

Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 15:37
I'd be surprised if the Company Commander can't shout at them:)

Steel Legion for Life
28-03-2009, 19:25
Just had a look at the codex; the Valkyries and Russes come as vehicle squadrons if you buy more than one per choice, which is problematic for a whole variety of reasons.

Khornies & milk
28-03-2009, 21:46
Just had a look at the codex; the Valkyries and Russes come as vehicle squadrons if you buy more than one per choice, which is problematic for a whole variety of reasons.

I'm not as worried by the Russ Squadrons as each Tank ignores the other as far as LoS goes, but the Valkyrie having to follow 4" Coherency as me seeing them negatively...plus they're a big fat target way up high in the sky, so next to no Cover Saves.

backslide
29-03-2009, 06:54
well I'm very excited by the new dex, sharpshooted lascannon At squads have long been the core of my At defence, they go down in points and are more vulnerable, but with orders I still think they will do their job well

on the other hand the fire support squads have gone down in points... I see 6 auto cannons in my future

base squads not much change here, I use mech so my entire list has to change quite a bit! my 1850 point list will be about 200 points lighter with the changes!

love the sound of the primaris psyker 24" 2d6 S6! for 70points? hell yes!

HQ

all the advisers look great funky models 2, not having to take a company HQ is cool, no idea why you would not but a nice option (2 primaris? insert evil laugh)

special characters, liking the sound of straken, esp if its clarifed about counter attack and furious charge stacking, even if it does not you have some decent counter attack options, 20/30 guard as one unit lead by a priest...

elites, enough said about the psykers and stormies I guess

troops, sounds like infultrate has gone which is a shame, but 'stealth' and carapace look like they might be

nice to see special weapon squads in there :) 3 demo charges? sure, seems they can even get plasma now!

Vets, nice to see intresting opptions same they might be abused but oh well

penal legion, ammusing

Fast attack, lots of options here, just thinking of the amount of damage a squadron of hellhounds could do.. as its one unit firing... now the template is just placed within 12 and auto hits.. 3 of those is a lot of dead everything

enough said about the flyers/skimmers what ever they are

3 plasmacannon sentials in cover with camonets sounds ammusing :)

heavys well I'm thinking a couple of russes as singles, and a squadron of 2 or 3

I have a demolisher, it has done ok, but basic russes with hb and plasma cannons sounds like me, as a vehical squadron 3 basic russes with 3 HB's is only 510, in 1750 easy to take that 2 single russes and still have 100 infantry if your light on the upgrades

look at it simply, those 3 russes all get to fire at somthing... as long as its not AV13/14 2+save its dead, remeber all the templates get resolved at once so a decent target will result in a lot more hits than 3 russes shooting

Explodingboy
29-03-2009, 08:01
I have to say that I honestly can't wait for the new dex to come out.

Soo many new toys I really don't know where to start.. I mean I will be getting at least 2 Valks, and both command sets off the bat, The recut sentinel is nice but not too important at the moment, I have 6 already so I pretty much got them out of my system these days.

Master of Ordinance is a must have at 30pts, I'm just trying to decide if I want to buy the model or make my own.. someone with a map and a TnT plunger is my current line of thinking (fits the fluff for my army Demolition specialists) and also I love the new veterans with demo charges and melta bombs, Just finished converting and painting two units of them (see sig).

The two catachan characters are likely to be converted for my force, once I can think of a suitable way to go with the special heavy bolter, and most of this evening has been spent sprucing up a chimera as a command vehicle.

Finally if the 2nd wave releases have Cadian RR I will be a very very happy bunny, although I might pick up some cold ones, as I really can't paint horses for the life of me.

Banville
29-03-2009, 11:19
I really love Captain Micha's idea for a Chaos Cultist list using the Psyker/Priest/Conscript end of things. The modelling potential here is fantastic.

backslide
29-03-2009, 12:34
I use chaotic guard, pale almost white skin, pale green uniforms

I use sisters replentia for priestesses only the officers don't have gas masks

they are all mech, which is totally plausable for chaotics, page 3 of the ultramarines omnibus makes that clear

Vitroc
29-03-2009, 20:09
I just read the codex and roughrider Hunting lances are worded in the fluff section of the RR as:
counting on the first charge as power weapons at str5 I5.
Though one cannot use a 2nd cc weapon to boost the attacks.

Gulbech
29-03-2009, 20:57
The Griffin is strengh 6, ap4, and reroll scatter dice. Always fire indirect.

Its actually a really good artillery for 75 point :)

Cheers

Killgore
29-03-2009, 23:03
Iv been expanding my Steel Legion force in preparation for the new codex

Iv been using alot of Death Korps models alongside my Steel Legion to add abit of variety, mainly in the command units/ special stuff

Iv purchased a Dkok Quartermaster unit to split up and distribute around my various command squads, I just had to have the medical servitor as my HQ command squad medic, the actual quartermaster model im using as a luitenant in one of my command squads or possibly using 'counts as' for one of the special characters... maybe Chenkov for his conscript next wave rule

Dkok Grenadiers im using as either storm troopers or veterans depending on my battle plans, brilliant models and dont look so bad when placed next to a Steel Legion army

Iv ordered 3 blisters of sanctioned psykers and a commisar holding out his pistol for a psyker squad, this unit is just to cool to pass up!

i intend to go conscript heavy in my main force, so im purchasing Cadians with gasmasks to act as cheap fodder alongside my main Steel Legion model platoons, iv also got a box of Empire Flagelants arriving that shall be converted into imperial priests and a Dkok Commisar with powersword on his shoulder to further 'encourage' my poor conscripts.... basic idea is to give my army a huge 4+ cover save as most of my regular foes are MEQ

for penal legions i intend to mix up a catachan and cadian models, should be able to make some brutal looking ruffians, iv even started buying a Ogryn model every few weeks so after a awhile i intend to have a unit of 5 to support my conscript charges

my FW titan techpriest has been fully painted and demoted to the role of Steel Legion Enginseer, cant wait to use this fantastic model and his servitor buddies to help support my Lemun Russ tanks

by the sounds of it i think ill be doing more close combat then shooting with this new codex, i just cant pass up the opotunity to use all the cool and interesting options rather then use the tournament players 'combinations of choice'

Perfect Organism
29-03-2009, 23:43
I'm working on a traitor guard / chaos cultist force for the new codex.

HQ is probably going to be a primaris psyker. I like shooty HQ units (I've had a lot of fun with my Big Mek's shokk attack gun) and it fits the concept of a chaos force better for me than an actually organized command squad. I might even use two of them, since I bought the fantasy empire wizard box to use as the model and it comes with two guys in it.

I'm definately going with the psyker choir (or whatever it is called) as well. Again, I just like the idea of loads of unsanctioned psykers running wild. I'm using fantasy empire flagellants for these and they look pretty good so far (they would also look great as loyalist psykers - just add some eagles and use all the chains and manacles you get in the box).

Troops are going to be a mix of basic infantry squads laying down firepower at range with lascannons, autocannons, heavy bolters, sniper rifles and grenade launchers, with penal squads to scout ahead and some veterans in chimeras.

The obvious way to use the veterans seems to be a squad with loads of meltaguns and the demolitions upgrade in chimeras. As far as I can tell, it's perfectly legal to fire the meltaguns and the demolition charge from the vehicle's fire points, utterly destroying most vehicles and buildings at close range. Then they can pile out to grab an objective, or start hunting tanks and bunkers with their meltabombs.

Fast attack seems like it is going to be tough to choose between the various options. I'm avoiding the flyers, since they don't match the vision I have for my army, but that still leaves me with tanks, sentinels and rough riders to pick between. I've already got a hellhound, so that's in, but I''m not sure what else I want. I quite like the idea of a banewolf as a horrible nurgle pus thrower, like a small version of the plaguereaper, but I'm not sure if it should go in it's own unit or be joined with the hellhound (or possibly hellhounds), since they seem optimised against slightly different targets.

I've got a few rough riders converted from marauder horsemen, so I might make a few more of those. I don't think assault units are ever worth using at less than ten strong, but twenty S 5 I 5 power weapon attacks should be enough to justify their existance. I like the idea of horsemen being used to scout the flanks of a tank formation.

Sentinels I'm probably not going to use at the moment, not because I don't think they are good, but because I'd want to use something which looks more like a proper 'stalk tank' than the normal sentinel. I'm picturing something like a smaller, skinnier version of the defiler, but I've got no idea how to build one.

As for heavy support it's fairly simple: I'm taking as many bloody tanks as I can. Basic Leman Russ, Demolishers and Exterminators are the ones I like best, mostly just because they look pretty cool.

Thornz
29-03-2009, 23:45
I don't mean to be an alarmist but ...

The Vendetta is just awesome AT/MC hunter in the new codex. Compare it to something with the equivilent firepower/survivability/tacical power and it comes out trumps. How is a DSing/Scouting 3xTL LC not 200+pts. I can see this as being toted as the best "tank" in the game. Oh ... it also carries 12 troops that can DS and re-roll for scatter I'm going to trial 1 in my gaming group and get back to you all with the results.

I think we will hear a lot about this Vendetta in the next coming months

Lord Cook
29-03-2009, 23:58
Master of Ordinance is a must have at 30pts, I'm just trying to decide if I want to buy the model or make my own.. someone with a map and a TnT plunger is my current line of thinking

Very cool idea.


How is a DSing/Scouting 3xTL LC not 200+pts.

Because in order to fire all three you need to move 6" or less, which means no cover save. Seeing as you're certainly not going to be getting any cover from terrain and you only have Av12, the Vendetta isn't exactly hard to take out.

Goose
30-03-2009, 00:20
Can the basilisk still fire direct shots? From the rumor I was under the impression its only indirect now.

With all these new vehicles it makes me wonder, can all infantry work? I'd hope all these new weapons don't completely out class the old 2 man teams. Hopefully they are priced well.

Also, is anyone else sensing some conscript fun? I'm imagining a real cool list with a lot of Leman tanks (1 basilisk for giggles.) and a ton of conscripts. Conscripts just run around and tie up anti tank things while the tanks drive around and blow things up. It would be very aggressive, and very awesome. If I start up Guard again I will probably be doing this.

FraustyTheSnowman
30-03-2009, 00:28
How exactly are vendetta not going to get any cover saves? Wave serpents and devilfish get cover saves right? Or am I missing something?

Lord Cook
30-03-2009, 00:37
How exactly are vendetta not going to get any cover saves? Wave serpents and devilfish get cover saves right? Or am I missing something?

Wave serpents and devilfish don't sit on a massive flying stand that holds them considerably above the great majority of terrain. I suppose if you were fighting on a board filled with mountains and skyscrapers...

zoodog
30-03-2009, 00:47
How exactly are vendetta not going to get any cover saves? Wave serpents and devilfish get cover saves right? Or am I missing something?

in addition to what lord cook said it is still fairly tough to do it with a wave serpent but the devilfish can just buy one. I only see the valk/vendetta receiving one when moving fast or will have more to do with the firing units position than the skimmers.

Thornz
30-03-2009, 01:04
Wave serpents and devilfish don't sit on a massive flying stand that holds them considerably above the great majority of terrain. I suppose if you were fighting on a board filled with mountains and skyscrapers...
I plan to make my own using the enormous black base supplied in the kit / "keeping the base it came on" for compedative purposes. If in happens to only be 2" off the ground after the conversion I'm sure no one will complain at all! Have you seen the but ugly flying stands ?? They are absolutly hideous ! Clear plastic gaudiness is revolting!

If it's only 2" off the ground then getting some cover will be A LOT easier!

madprophet
30-03-2009, 01:11
I have been collecting Valhallans for years. I currently field a command squad with banner bearer, medic and master vox; 2 squads of stormtroopers; 2 rifle platoons of three squads with voxes for each squad; 3 Sentinel squads of 2 walkers each; a heavy weapons platoon of three support squads.

With the points reduction I will be able to add some tanks, I would love to make the entire unit airborne but I doubt I can come up with $750 for Valkyries but scratch-building them might be an option. I have an armored vehicle group of a Leman Russ, Exterminator, Demolisher, Hellhound, 4 Chimeras, a Griffin and a Basilisk as well.

I would like to add a master of ordinance - I am thinking about using the General Drake model from Reaper Minis or using one of those new Cadian officer figures. I also am looking at the Lt. Varras model from the 4th Edition box set for that role.

I also have five commissars and an old Commissar Yarrick figure to inspire the troops on for Mother Lyubov.

I am not 100% sure how the new rules will effect my company, I suspect I will end up with 3 platoons of 2 rifle squads supported by a heavy support squad, with chimeras assigned to the command squads. Heavy Support will be tank and artillery squadrons. The fast attack role will be filled by the Sentinels and maybe a squad of hellhound.
I'd like to make the stormtroopers airborne and maybe add a Vulture or two to the heavy support choices.

I am looking forward to the new Codex to see what new options are available.

FraustyTheSnowman
30-03-2009, 03:19
Guess I didn't figure on them coming with that tall of stands. My bad. I'm going to have to agree with the above though, and use mine (if I ever get any, 60 bucks is a tad steep, cheeper than forgeworld yes, but still) on self made, lower to the ground, stands.

In other news, I'm pretty excited about the new codex. The vostroyan army I've been working on is going to get a bit of reshufling. It's basically my answer to my buddy's tau army, so has no vehicles, plenty of autocannons, plasma, and carapace. Mostly, I'll be needing to come up with something for veterans, and I'll be getting a LOT more heavy and special weapons to fill out points.

Beyond that, if I break down and get the valks/vendetta then I'll be upping the production of my elysians (yes yes, I know, too cheep to spend 60 on a valk, but I'll shell out 7 bucks a guy on elysians).

freddieyu
30-03-2009, 03:39
Can the basilisk still fire direct shots? From the rumor I was under the impression its only indirect now.

With all these new vehicles it makes me wonder, can all infantry work? I'd hope all these new weapons don't completely out class the old 2 man teams. Hopefully they are priced well.

Also, is anyone else sensing some conscript fun? I'm imagining a real cool list with a lot of Leman tanks (1 basilisk for giggles.) and a ton of conscripts. Conscripts just run around and tie up anti tank things while the tanks drive around and blow things up. It would be very aggressive, and very awesome. If I start up Guard again I will probably be doing this.

this is actually important since if the basilisk min range is 36 this really limits what it can shoot against

backslide
30-03-2009, 04:18
well have had another go at reworking my current list based on the rummors:

rough new codex list:

HQ 3 plasma (since they are BS 4!)
Officer has power fist
Chimera heavy stubber (9 36" range shots each)

Primirias Psyker (2d6 S6 at BS4!)

Infantry platoon

command section 3 plasma
Chimera heavy stubber

Infantry Squad, plas & missile
Chimera heavy stubber

Infantry Squad, plas & missile
Chimera heavy stubber

Heavy weapons squad 3 lascannons

Heavy weapons squad 3 lascannons

Heavy weapons squad 3 Autocannons (75 points each? sure!!)

Heavy weapons squad 3 Autocannons

Vet squad 3 meltas
Chimera heavy stubber

Leman Russ 3 HB's

Leman Russ 1 HB and 2 heavy plasmas

Leman Russ 1 HB and 2 heavy plasmas

bang on 1750 based off the rummors, and most of it is painted

and has more firepower than my current version! though 1 less chimera, because the heavy weapon squads are so cheap, should prolly just get more vets or vehicals

LordofWar1986
30-03-2009, 04:57
Well I am stuck in a pretty big rut for my guard army, because it is actually turning into an Air Cav Army! AHH! I can't help but think of how cool it will be for my almost completely converted drop troop guardsmen to fly around the table and wreak havoc in Valks/Ven's.

Since taking a large number of the new skimmers will not be my goal, what do you guys/gals think if I where to put in some Infiltrators/Outflankers to represent units "scouting" ahead of the main Ariel assault to blow up tanks/disrupt heavy weapons/swathe flamers on light infantry? Do you think it would be a viable tactic in a tourney setting?

djinn8
30-03-2009, 05:38
Been thinking about my list for the new 'dex and I think its going to look something like this. Not sure about the points exactly, but I'm guessing it'll be around 1800-2000 pts

Creed & Kell, Standard, Lascannon, Medic
10x Ratling Snipers
Platoon Command with 4x plasma
4x Infantry Squads with Lascannon/Plasma
2x Mortar Squads
2x Heavy Bolter Squads
2x Veteran Squads with 2x Melta, Flamer, Demo, Chimera
2x 5-man Rough Rider Squads with Meltas and Lance
Squad of 3 Multilaser Sentinals
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Exterminator

Any spare points will going into a squadron of Giffons. If cuts are needed then Kells gone.

All in all a pretty standard infantry platoon, but the Vets are going to be awesome for drive by demo charges :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

decker_cky
30-03-2009, 06:01
I've converted up my own leman russ Eradicator from my second demolisher.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/deckerCKY/IMG00030-20090329-0921.jpg

It's a simple magnetic addition so I can still use a second Demolisher if I want, and the barrel can be swapped back onto the baneblade to use it as a hellhammer, but I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I figured the Hellhammer turret made sense since the hellhammer is the ignoring cover version of the baneblade, and using a demolisher as the base left me with a demolisher turret.

Born Again
30-03-2009, 06:18
I haven't been keeping up with the new guard developments as I've never been interested in doing a IG army, however, the new models are looking tasty and the thought of these new psyker battle squads could well turn me into doing a small force...

Khornies & milk
30-03-2009, 07:22
I've converted up my own leman russ Eradicator from my second demolisher.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/deckerCKY/IMG00030-20090329-0921.jpg

It's a simple magnetic addition so I can still use a second Demolisher if I want, and the barrel can be swapped back onto the baneblade to use it as a hellhammer, but I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I figured the Hellhammer turret made sense since the hellhammer is the ignoring cover version of the baneblade, and using a demolisher as the base left me with a demolisher turret.

Very nice!
I'm getting the new GW Stormlord model this week so I think there'll be quite a few turret bits that could be used to make an Eradicator one, seen as I have some spare Demolisher Cannon bits laying around as well.

Raxmei
30-03-2009, 07:31
this is actually important since if the basilisk min range is 36 this really limits what it can shoot againstCore rulebook, vehicles shooting, ordnance barrage weapons. The Basilisk retains the option to fire directly and ignore its minimum range. The Griffon and the Colossus have special rules to take away this ability, which is a serious drawback to the Colossus and somewhat annoying on the Griffon.

totgeboren
30-03-2009, 08:22
Im in the process of making 20 conscripts (acually chaos cultists) for my traitor guards.
Looking at the rules, it looks like they cant be given either a priest nor a commisar.
if this is so, and orders are tested against the units Ld, and not the Officers, then it will be really hard to give a unit of conscripts an order.

So, whats the point of conscripts? They wont be able to soak up wounds, since they will flee as soon as they take any losses, and even your HQ wont be able to rally them.

Anyone have any good ideas of what I could use my conscripts for? :)

Killgore
30-03-2009, 09:45
Im in the process of making 20 conscripts (acually chaos cultists) for my traitor guards.
Looking at the rules, it looks like they cant be given either a priest nor a commisar.
if this is so, and orders are tested against the units Ld, and not the Officers, then it will be really hard to give a unit of conscripts an order.




If thats true then it will be a huge disapointment for me, and will probaly result in me reworking my Conscript wave plan


oh well, large 'merge for the kill' commisar/ crazy priest infantry mobs for me!

Gus Train
30-03-2009, 12:03
Atm I'm seriously considering Hard Vets all in Chimeras with a large number of Leman Russes to make a reasonable Mech/Armoured Company army.

I'm thinking the number of special weapons in the Vet squads, coupled with BS4 and the Heavy Weapons of the squad and the Chimeras will more than make up for their number deficiency. 3 Meltaguns or Demo-charges + a Missile Launcher or 3 Grenade-launchers and a mortar is looking tempting :D

Besides, modelling Veterans is quite fun as I've discovered.

Treadhead_1st
30-03-2009, 12:19
My army is pretty basic, so not too much room for conversion.

HQ - melta (FW meltagunners, convert CO)

7x Storm Troopers, 2x Flamer (models already look good)

1x Platoon of CS & 2x Squads, all with Autocannon (converted Sergeants and Heavies - porobably using the old-school heavy weapons carriages) + 2x Mortar Squads (get to have fun making emplacements for these, large bases = mini diorama).

2x Platoons of CS & 2 Squads, all with Grenade Launchers (just converted Sergeants)

Vanquisher & 2x Russ (looking forwards to getting my hands on some Mars-Alpha kits to have a lot of fun converting and adding details - I love my tanks so this should be great)

EITHER Valkyrie (multilaser, hellstrikes, door HBs) OR 3x Sentinels (1 Lascannon, 2x Autocannon) - will work on some converted bases for the Sentinels, and making the Valkyrie look like a Vietnam-era Huey.

Comes to 1500 points and 100 men and 4-6 vehicles. All Sergeants and COs will be converted, have full vox network and lots of modelling opportunities on the tanks. I'm liking this codex!

tuebor
30-03-2009, 12:50
Atm I'm seriously considering Hard Vets all in Chimeras with a large number of Leman Russes to make a reasonable Mech/Armoured Company army.

I'm thinking the number of special weapons in the Vet squads, coupled with BS4 and the Heavy Weapons of the squad and the Chimeras will more than make up for their number deficiency. 3 Meltaguns or Demo-charges + a Missile Launcher or 3 Grenade-launchers and a mortar is looking tempting :D

Besides, modelling Veterans is quite fun as I've discovered.

I'm thinking Mech may be the way to go as well. Chimeras are cheap enough that not many armies are going to be able to cope with 6+ of them as well as 3 Leman Russes.

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 13:09
I hope you can put the priest in conscripts; he practically begs for a bunch of loser redemptionists to follow him around.
Hey, I resent that! :D

(see signature)

ehlijen
30-03-2009, 13:32
Uses for conscripts even if they can't have commisars or priests as ugrades:

-Stick a commisar lord into the unit
-Use them to hold objectives in cover. They enemy must charge them or never get them off it without the use of ridiculous firepower. Remember they won't test at all until they loose a quarter. 30-40 guardsmen in cover going to ground (what are you going to loose in firepower) and that's not going to happen anytime soon.
-put them into the enemies path. He can't go round them (too many) he might shoot a hole (but not in time to move through in the same turn) but whatever he does, he will be slowed down.

Kadaan
30-03-2009, 15:16
thanks for the post, greatly appreciated.

can't wait to get my hands on the new codex

LordofWar1986
30-03-2009, 15:34
Since taking a large number of the new skimmers will not be my goal, what do you guys/gals think if I where to put in some Infiltrators/Outflankers to represent units "scouting" ahead of the main Ariel assault to blow up tanks/disrupt heavy weapons/swathe flamers on light infantry? Do you think it would be a viable tactic in a tourney setting?

Wow, nice to know I'm ignored around here :p I am just looking for maybe a couple of general tips even though the codex hasn't hit the stores yet for finalities.

IAMNOTHERE
30-03-2009, 15:46
My experience of tournies is that an isolated squad is a dead squad.

Anything you leave out in front will either need to do it's job quick or be damn good at shrugging off fire.

If it works in most games you play then great, take it to a tourny and it'll probably work there too.

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 15:49
@LordofWar,
Perhaps you could be abit more clear. You don't want skimmers but you want to make a scouting force that attacks ahead of skimmers? I'm not sure what sort of force you're looking at, as I don't see what infiltrators/outflankers you'd want to base your army on. Please eloborate a bit and people can give their opinion.

Marshal Sinclair
30-03-2009, 16:38
I don't think the Valkyries will be all that effective personally, especially with them being in squadrons. Scouting Sentinels though are a different matter. 2 sqns of 2, both with Autocannons to get side and rear armour shots off seem like a steal for their points (35 points basic, plus a few (5?) for the weapon). I don't see the point in upgrading them to the heavy version though, as +2 AV on the front isn't worth 20 points on a suicide unit (that's 80 points, enough to buy 2 more).

razormasticator
30-03-2009, 16:58
I am a little disapointed by what I am reading on Storm Troopers.... I have 3 squads of Kasrkins I was looking forwards to using for my Arctic Wyrms.

Thanatos_elNyx
30-03-2009, 17:29
If in happens to only be 2" off the ground after the conversion I'm sure no one will complain at all!

Modelling for advantage is usually frowned upon.

LordofWar1986
30-03-2009, 17:41
@LordofWar,
Perhaps you could be abit more clear. You don't want skimmers but you want to make a scouting force that attacks ahead of skimmers? I'm not sure what sort of force you're looking at, as I don't see what infiltrators/outflankers you'd want to base your army on. Please eloborate a bit and people can give their opinion.

Well first off I meant to say (I remember saying actually) that I didn't want to use a lot (8! :eek:) of skimmers. Most would be like 2-3 of each. It seems that since the Valks/Vens will be only fast attack choices, my only other option seems to only center the rest of my army at taking out enemy AT, so my few skimmers can live at least for a few turns. Sorry this was unclear when I first posted, I am straying away at using LR's for now. If using the Air Cav force would be effective from the beginning, then I would be very happy.

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 18:02
2-3 of each adds up quickly, especially if you add units inside such as stormtroopers.

I think I'd go with a bog-standard command (no special character) and 2 platoons. One focussed on anti-tank, the other on anti-infantry (a focus helps when you add them together in kill point mission). A full focus on anti-tank isn't necesary, as the vendetta can help out quite nicely once it arrives. You'll want to be able to kill hordes too.

I'd consider at least one LR though. Templates are a godsend against some armies, and almost a requirement against nob bikers for instance (nigh on impossible to flashlight to death).

Captain Micha
30-03-2009, 18:10
It's kinda striking to me how much more firepower my guard will be having with the new codex. I will actually have more men -and- more armor at 1500 when the new dex is out, than I do at 1850 now.

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 18:17
Really? I thought the savings were reasonably small overall. What do you run at 1850 then?

LordofWar1986
30-03-2009, 18:25
2-3 of each adds up quickly, especially if you add units inside such as stormtroopers.

I think I'd go with a bog-standard command (no special character) and 2 platoons. One focussed on anti-tank, the other on anti-infantry (a focus helps when you add them together in kill point mission). A full focus on anti-tank isn't necesary, as the vendetta can help out quite nicely once it arrives. You'll want to be able to kill hordes too.

I'd consider at least one LR though. Templates are a godsend against some armies, and almost a requirement against nob bikers for instance (nigh on impossible to flashlight to death).

Well that actually has made a lot of good points, thanks :) I guess I can convert a LR to be more like a drop troop tank (NO idea how I will be able to do that lol :confused:) No special chars? Hmmm...I thought that using Creed has been almost universally decided in competitive IG lists.

Too bad that Vets no longer have Infiltrate, cause the flamers have always done well to flush out loads of infantry, or the plasma guns for MEQ's.

kikkoman
30-03-2009, 18:28
Anyone planning on using the devilfish or wave serpent as a more affordable base for a valkyrie conversion?
Or would that sort of thing be considered cheesy, they're like half the size.

Hi-tech and well trained guardsmen are prett viable now. For a mecha look, sentinels would be an obvious stand-in for Imperial battlesuits. Inquisitorial allies can bring in power armor elites.

The Leman Russ is also a good candidate for mecha-nizin'. It moves 6" to fire or 'runs' 6+d6", like a walker or monstrous creature. Things like hull, sponsons, turret weapons could be gun arms, torso mounted or over-the-shoulder on a walker. A squat, quadruped mecha would match the Leman Russ's size well.

Grenadier veterans as mainstay troops.
ogryns= combat robots/cyborgs.
rough riders= jump pack guardsmen with panzer faust
w2 heavy weapons squad= guardsman with powered heavy weapons rig and blast shield.
For your commander, his bodyguards could be protective drones.


pictured is a spearhead sentinel with missile launcher and smoke grenades, spearhead sentinel with multilaser (with underslung hunter-killer), and a leman russ exterminator.

Captain Micha
30-03-2009, 18:58
Really? I thought the savings were reasonably small overall. What do you run at 1850 then?

Light Infantry, Cameoline, Xeno Fighters nids.

Also have a Chimera and Stormtroopers.

Two Russes.

some GK Termies.

Autcannons, Rocket Launchers are the heavy guns, some plasma sprinkled in and Flamers..... which are soon to make a dramatic Exit from my army list.

somewhere around five or six squads of Body Bags.. I mean Guardsmen. I have around 81 infantry all told at 1850 right now. One of my junior Commands has an Autocannon. and Vox on the Junior Commands

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 19:00
No special chars? Hmmm...I thought that using Creed has been almost universally decided in competitive IG lists.
If you go troops heavy, yes, but otherwise I'd save the 90 pts and get additional troops. 12" order range should be enough for most armies. Telling units to add a shot to their lasguns or to twinlink lascannons is all fine, but getting more instead seems more sensible to me.

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 19:04
Light Infantry, Cameoline, Xeno Fighters nids.

Also have a Chimera and Stormtroopers.

Two Russes.

some GK Termies.

Autcannons, Rocket Launchers are the heavy guns, some plasma sprinkled in and Flamers..... which are soon to make a dramatic Exit from my army list.
With that many doctrines I can see where you're saving points :) I'm not sure why you'd drop flamers all of the sudden though.

LordofWar1986
30-03-2009, 19:04
If you go troops heavy, yes, but otherwise I'd save the 90 pts and get additional troops. 12" order range should be enough for most armies. Telling units to add a shot to their lasguns or to twinlink lascannons is all fine, but getting more instead seems more sensible to me.

Alrighty well that sounds fair enough to me and I will actually post some stuff hopefully soon to show my progress on army building/painting/gaming. Thanks a lot for the much needed advice/tips for my upcoming IG army :D

For the Emperor!!

Captain Micha
30-03-2009, 19:06
With that many doctrines I can see where you're saving points :) I'm not sure why you'd drop flamers all of the sudden though.

That whole "If a squad is eligible for Doctrine you -must- take it" was such BS and I don't mean Ballistic Skill.

Cause I've come to the realization that Flamers do not infact stop Orks. And by the time you get to use Flamers, that squad is going to die in CC anyway next turn.

Guardsmen fight worse than Fire Warriors in CC. 5+ save.... ugh.

LordofWar1986
30-03-2009, 19:13
Guardsmen fight worse than Fire Warriors in CC. 5+ save.... ugh.

Well make sure you kill enough in turn then before they die :p

Lord Cook
30-03-2009, 19:40
Cause I've come to the realization that Flamers do not infact stop Orks.

That depends entirely on where you put them. If you had them in front rank units, then no they clearly wouldn't stop Orks.

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 19:41
Actually, 30 guardsmen with a priest in the 12" furious charge bubble of Straken will kill over 20 very surprised orks in the turn they charge.

Captain Micha
30-03-2009, 19:44
That depends entirely on where you put them. If you had them in front rank units, then no they clearly wouldn't stop Orks.

And where else do you put them? It has an 8" Range for crying out loud.

Mojaco: Depends on your luck entirely. I don't run Lascannons because quite frankly I defy the laws of Statistical Averages. If it's not more dakka or Bs4 I'll miss. Almost every shot. Also, I've -never- been able to get the charge on Orks... it's that whole they have an 18" assault range compared to my 12"

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 19:48
Actually, they'll kill the same number when they're being charged, as Straken also gives them countercharge :D They'll just recieve more hurt from the survivers.

Captain Micha
30-03-2009, 19:50
Actually, they'll kill the same number when they're being charged, as Straken also gives them countercharge :D They'll just recieve more hurt from the survivers.

Guess I'm building yet -another- CC army... Great. What I've always wanted. Three Assault Army Lists :rolleyes:

That makes Storming Tau (basically fish& Firewarriors with two large vespid squads with some Hammerhead, and Side support with Finders thrown in you guessed it. it's Rapid Fire Or Less for my heaving lifting)

Wraith Wing,

and now Assault Guard.... is there even a point to the shooting phase?

souljaking09
30-03-2009, 19:58
catachans have a total of 8 extra heads to work with when you include the medic one. Plus all the other stuff on the sprue. I can't wait.:D

Lord Solar Plexus
30-03-2009, 20:09
And where else do you put them? It has an 8" Range for crying out loud.


Well.. up to 1 mm behind the first line where they are safe from assault and WiLL be in range with 99.9 % of the template? :eyebrows:

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 20:10
And where else do you put them? It has an 8" Range for crying out loud.

Second rank. When a squad is wiped (and they will) the flamers step in and cleanse the lot.

Captain Micha
30-03-2009, 20:15
Well.. up to 1 mm behind the first line where they are safe from assault and WiLL be in range with 99.9 % of the template? :eyebrows:

Then it would have to be not in the squad at all, because of the defenders react rule and 2" assault.


Second rank. When a squad is wiped (and they will) the flamers step in and cleanse the lot.

Second rank meaning a second squad? What do I just throw in a naked squad of guardsmen as Fodder for the "real squad"?

That's starting to sound expensive.

souljaking09
30-03-2009, 20:20
Well that actually has made a lot of good points, thanks :) I guess I can convert a LR to be more like a drop troop tank (NO idea how I will be able to do that lol :confused:) No special chars? Hmmm...I thought that using Creed has been almost universally decided in competitive IG lists.

Too bad that Vets no longer have Infiltrate, cause the flamers have always done well to flush out loads of infantry, or the plasma guns for MEQ's.

speaking of flamers, there is one heavy flamer in each command squad. which means they could be legal again.

Vitroc
30-03-2009, 20:26
yeah, heavy flamers are options for command squads and veterans. Though for the humble price of 20 pts..

Lord Cook
30-03-2009, 20:30
And where else do you put them? It has an 8" Range for crying out loud.

Think. Rather than putting it in an infantry squad, put them in units that will naturally be behind those infantry squads anyway. Two flamers in a platoon command section can very easily run forwards after an enemy has broken your infantry squads and flame the survivors. Against regular Orks this is devastating.

Even if for some reason you don't want to do it with command sections, you can have some of your infantry with plasma guns and the rest with flamers. Against a horde army like an Ork green tide the plasmas will be useless anyway, so put those squads in the first rank and let them get charged, and keep your flamers back ready for the counter attack.


and now Assault Guard.... is there even a point to the shooting phase?

I sincerely hope you're joking.

decker_cky
30-03-2009, 20:36
I don't think countercharge and furious charge work together at the same time. Furious charge explicitly states you get an extra attack as if you had charged, not that you count as charging. So straken has an offensive and a defensive ability, but they don't overlap.

souljaking09
30-03-2009, 20:39
i think it's cool that now, instead of having 7 plastic heads to choose from, there are 15. adds much more character and uniqueness. especially for catachans. add that along with all of the oop and in production metal catachans and you will not have to have too many duplicates. I'm gonna make some of mine black people too. I havent figured out a good paint scheme for them yet though. tell me if you know one.

Mojaco
30-03-2009, 20:48
I don't think countercharge and furious charge work together at the same time. Furious charge explicitly states you get an extra attack as if you had charged, not that you count as charging. So straken has an offensive and a defensive ability, but they don't overlap.

Awww, I just checked and you're right. I'm sad now.

Marshal Sinclair
30-03-2009, 20:52
i think it's cool that now, instead of having 7 plastic heads to choose from, there are 15. adds much more character and uniqueness. especially for catachans. add that along with all of the oop and in production metal catachans and you will not have to have too many duplicates. I'm gonna make some of mine black people too. I havent figured out a good paint scheme for them yet though. tell me if you know one.

Spoken like a true Texan. :rolleyes:

megamat008
30-03-2009, 20:57
Well Blood Claws get their +2 bonus attacks even when they countercharge, so I don't see why countercharge and furious charge couldn't work together.

totgeboren
30-03-2009, 21:09
Second rank meaning a second squad? What do I just throw in a naked squad of guardsmen as Fodder for the "real squad"?

That's starting to sound expensive.

40 pts for a squad of conscripts maybe?

Anyway, flamers rock vs orks, but you need the unit to either be behind a unit that will get assaulted and destroyed, or put the flamer in a unit that rides a transport. Both work as well, but it must be said that its not expensive at all to use a sacrifice-unit.

Say a phat mob of orks comes towards your line. You will hopefully kill a bunch on the way in, but then you know they will assault you and kill at least one unit.

If that one unit is a cheap squad worth between 40-60 pts, thats all the orks will kill before being roasted by your flamers.

You killed a mob worth over 200 pts, and he killed dudes worth about 50 pts.

Sounds like a good trade for me.

I used this to great effect vs tyranids with the old ork codex (where you needed a plan and some tactics to win with orks).

But then my nid-playing friend outsmarted me, and used some small broods of hormagaunts to send in first. He held his assault one turn extra, so his small broods could kill my sacrifice-squads (grots ofc!)

Now he could hit my lines in force, and I couldn't respond to him properly, since his greater speed allowed him to hit me where it hurt.

Anyway, one well placed flamer will kill more orks than one plasmagun will even if it gets to fire every turn.
Learn to use flamers, and orks/nids will be easy to deal with (unless the enemy is as cunning as you!)

decker_cky
30-03-2009, 21:28
Well Blood Claws get their +2 bonus attacks even when they countercharge, so I don't see why countercharge and furious charge couldn't work together.
Why? One rule says they get 2 attacks rather than 1 when they charge, which combines nicely with countercharge which gives you an extra attack exactly as if you had charged. Furious charge, on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of rules interaction.

tuebor
30-03-2009, 21:45
Second rank meaning a second squad? What do I just throw in a naked squad of guardsmen as Fodder for the "real squad"?

That's starting to sound expensive.

With the current Codex I'll have squads designed for long ranged shooting, generally plasma/grenade and missile launchers and then behind them will be a command squad with four flamers and possibly a line squad with a flamer. When someone murders the first infantry squad I move up and burninate them severely. With luck they'll have essentially traded one of their squads for one of yours, which isn't something most armies can keep up for long.

Khornies & milk
30-03-2009, 21:57
I am a little disapointed by what I am reading on Storm Troopers.... I have 3 squads of Kasrkins I was looking forwards to using for my Arctic Wyrms.

They can be used as Veterans though...well, that's what I hope to do.

Lord Cook
30-03-2009, 22:55
I'm certainly using my storm trooper models as veterans.

ManusMarines
30-03-2009, 23:24
As far as Penal Battalions go, are there any guard models with long sleeves, but no shoulder pads?

I desperately want to make a squad of Orange Jumpsuit guard for the battalion :)

I guess I could file down the shoulder pads on a Cadian squad, but damn that would take a bit.

Suggestions?

Toe Cutter
30-03-2009, 23:44
Kit bash them with some warhammer empire troops perhaps? Up side of that is that it gives you some different heads to mix and match four sergeant models or your penal legionnaires as well.

Lord Cook
31-03-2009, 00:21
As far as Penal Battalions go, are there any guard models with long sleeves, but no shoulder pads?

Most of the tank crew. The torsos aren't wearing armour either. Just stick them on normal guardsmen legs and you're good to go.

chivalrous
31-03-2009, 00:24
As far as Penal Battalions go, are there any guard models with long sleeves, but no shoulder pads?

I desperately want to make a squad of Orange Jumpsuit guard for the battalion :)

I guess I could file down the shoulder pads on a Cadian squad, but damn that would take a bit.

Suggestions?

Van Saar Gangers from the Necromunda range perhaps?

gamer2456
31-03-2009, 00:36
Manus, the Macharius crusade book from BoLS has a few examples of Methalor Penal Troopers. while they didnt go as far as to file down the shoulders, the black armor and orange fatigues look really nice (they are Cadian models btw).

Steel Legion for Life
31-03-2009, 14:25
If you paint Cadians Orange, with Black armour, they look pretty orange and Penal-like. A friend headswapped all his Orange Cadians with the plastic Chaos warriors for his traitor guard, and they looked authentically like the kind of goons any bond villain would be happy to have guarding his volcano lair.

If you wanted to go maximum penal squad, I'd go for Van Saars, painted orange, headswapped with say, the gasmask/no helmet heads from Pig Iron productions, and then give them leg irons made out of jewellery chain.

Steel Legion for Life
31-03-2009, 15:15
Regarding a few points in the thread;

@Flamer-haters:You can have FOUR flamers in a command section, cheaper than any other weapon (well, maybe not grenade launchers). Even against marine equivalents in 5 man squads, this is a bargain with BS3.

If you could buy a gun that was assault 10 with an 8" range you'd sometimes buy it over a plasma gun, right? Well, remember BS 3 and basically a flamer IS an Assault ten gun - except against orks it's like an assault 26 gun. And now three of them cost the same as a plasma gun.

@Griffon Lovers: I've never liked this tank. It's a peasant's basilisk, with a hideous model. For 15 points less, 3 Mortars do a similar job. And they aren't a heavy support slot. I can't ever see myself using this, but I know some people like them. I admit it, I'm a griffon hater:)

@Armoured Sentinel haters: The front plate being 12 makes them much more survivable. I think two armoured are probably tougher than three unarmoured, which is the comparison. The main difference is that for example, Heavy bolters/boltguns are almost no threat.

decker_cky
31-03-2009, 15:26
@Flamer-haters:You can have FOUR flamers in a command section, cheaper than any other weapon (well, maybe not grenade launchers). Even against marine equivalents in 5 man squads, this is a bargain with BS3.

Is it a bargain at BS4? ;)


@Griffon Lovers: I've never liked this tank. It's a peasant's basilisk, with a hideous model. For 15 points less, 3 Mortars do a similar job. And they aren't a heavy support slot. I can't ever see myself using this, but I know some people like them. I admit it, I'm a griffon hater:)

I think they'll be popular since you can use them to make other artillery more popular.


@Armoured Sentinel haters: The front plate being 12 makes them much more survivable. I think two armoured are probably tougher than three unarmoured, which is the comparison. The main difference is that for example, Heavy bolters/boltguns are almost no threat.

Not to mention being enclosed (no +1 for being open topped). Only being killed on a 6 with glances at AV12 is much better than being killed on a 5 with glances at AV10.

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 15:26
Problem with Flamer theory. Command squads are Bs4 now. So Plas plas plas and plas!

:D :)

I love Sentinels they spend almost the whole game ignored. Even as they rack up Kps.

tuebor
31-03-2009, 15:29
Problem with Flamer theory. Command squads are Bs4 now. So Plas plas plas and plas!

I'm pretty sure only Company Command Squads are Veterans with BS4 while Platoon Command Squads are just regular Guardsmen with BS3.

Bunnahabhain
31-03-2009, 15:37
Problem with Flamer theory. Command squads are Bs4 now. So Plas plas plas and plas!

:D :)
.

Command squads are already going to be high priority targets, to shut down the orders system. So lets make them really expensive as well...

Plasma at 10pts, in 4th ed, was rather good and useful. Now, at 15pts, with cover saves everywhere, it is less useful, and more expensive. Flamers, on the other hand, have become more useful, and cheaper.

I think the natural home of plasma is now veteran squads. BS4, and a reasonable number of wounds, to stop them dying too easily, and they're not trying to do another job at the same time....

SPYDER68
31-03-2009, 15:40
Command squads are already going to be high priority targets, to shut down the orders system. So lets make them really expensive as well...

Plasma at 10pts, in 4th ed, was rather good and useful. Now, at 15pts, with cover saves everywhere, it is less useful, and more expensive. Flamers, on the other hand, have become more useful, and cheaper.

I think the natural home of plasma is now veteran squads. BS4, and a reasonable number of wounds, to stop them dying too easily, and they're not trying to do another job at the same time....

This is going to be very true with the new command squads.

best use most of the time is taking a command squad and keeping it out of LoS.

Treadhead_1st
31-03-2009, 15:43
I'm honestly torn between a Vendetta/Valkyrie and 3 Sentinels in my army at the moment.

I'd use the Flyer as a fire-support unit as opposed to a transport (Hellstrikes/Hellfurys are both fairly nasty weapons, the former using Ordnance rules for penetrating armour and the latter ignoring cover), so that part isn't really an issue.

However, the Sentinels have the advantage of being able to tie units up in combat. I've had games where a single Sentinel managed to hold up an Assault Marine squad (5 men, Power Weapon) for 4 turns - and I imagine the armoured variation would do even better, since it's harder to kill with Krak Grenades and the like.

Both offer conversion opportunities (mainly bases for the Sentinels, and painting on the Flyer), and come to similar cost.

Anyone else having dilemmas such as these, or do you all pretty much know what you're going to be taking already (thanks to the thorough "rumour" thread)?

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 15:45
This is going to be very true with the new command squads.

best use most of the time is taking a command squad and keeping it out of LoS.

Given that Orders only have a 12" range (Voxes don't transmit them apparently... making them worthless!) Orders are very overrated. Infact I'd welcome the enemy pouring fire into my Command squads.

SPYDER68
31-03-2009, 16:03
That all depends on openion if its worth it or not.

If you put a commander in middle, then 2x squads to each side, you have a decent range.

Or even..

x's = platoon. the thing in middle is command chimera ? hoping its possible to issue orders out of one.
................x x x x x
............... x x x x x
...x x x x x....|--|.....x x x x x
x x x x x.......|--|.......x x x x x


12" range can be more then enough at times.

Treadhead_1st
31-03-2009, 16:20
With Orders, you only need 1 model within 6" range of platoon officers, or 12" of the Company officer.

That's actually quite a large distance covered. If you have your sqaud at max coherencey, in a flat line (never going to happen, but still, for an extreme example..or maybe useful for Conscript/Merged Platoons) you have an approximate range of...62" of order-affected weapons, just for the Platoon commander (ie, Platoon HQ in the middle, one bloke 6" away, then next bloke 2" from him (bearing in mind the base is roughly 1" wide - and then the same squad on the other side). Never going to be used like that, but it makes my point.

You only need 1 bloke within range, the rest can utilise coherency rules and the larger base for heavy weapons to get LOS up to 31" away from the officer. So for a suicidal squad being used to get a TL-Lascannon shot against side-armour it's kinda handy and relatively long-ranged (though you'd have to maneuver the squad into position, and ergo unpractical). But on a smaller scale you can easily have one squad spread out over 6" effectively giving the order 12" range.

I'm thinking that's quite useful.

djinn8
31-03-2009, 16:22
Given that Orders only have a 12" range (Voxes don't transmit them apparently... making them worthless!) Orders are very overrated. Infact I'd welcome the enemy pouring fire into my Command squads.

I think you might be being a little negitive.

The orders are far from worthless. "Get Back in the Fight" will become indispencible halfway through the game as will "Front Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" for gunline armies trying to hold back assaults. Even the poorly thought out "Get Down" command will be useful for Capture and Control missions where your objective is going to get bombarded by enemy fire outside your troopers range.

As for command squad load outs I'm a little torn. I was planning on running a Plasma totting Platoon Command and a Flamer totting Complany Command so that I can deal with either of the two evils (GEQ & MEQ) who get into the line. But with the Company Command Squad having better balistic skill it seems a waste not to give them plasma, though this makes the squad even more vunerable. It also limits putting the Regimental Standard (or whatever the re-roll moral ones called) and won't be taking effect of the Heavy flamer option, unless the Platoon Command can take them?

Can anyone confirm that they can?

Sholto
31-03-2009, 16:25
I think when it comes to Orders-based armies, Creed will be mandatory.

Sholto

SPYDER68
31-03-2009, 16:27
I think Creed will be just about mandatory in any Cadian army.

I know im taking him for sure even if its for the free scout on a vehicle..

Outflanking Demolisher ? yes please.

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 16:28
Voxes are useless not Orders.

Orders aren't all that and a bag of chips. (which is what the guard needed... especially if we are to compete against orks. Without building an -assault army-) They are okay but I don't see them turning too many games into wins for me. (My army is going to be Light Infantry Vet based) Or certain army lists. (any Vet list). Maybe my Human Wave list.. but is FRFSRF really that useful? I mean they are lasguns we are talking about here. I can fire off 80 of them and cause maybe four wounds as it is.

Lumbering is the really awesome rule in the new Codex.

LordofWar1986
31-03-2009, 16:34
Lumbering is the really awesome rule in the new Codex.

I think also the insane number of artillery weapons plus the addition of the skimmers makes the IG army seem like a nightmare to play against. Once a good number of IG players start using massed artillery then Orks will cry out "come on! stop shooting us! we wanna fight in HTH!"

IG players will say "Why! We suck at HTH! I'd rather bombard you into the dirt!"

Battle-Brother Wags
31-03-2009, 16:52
I think you might be being a little negitive.

Captain Micha? Negative? Never!


Voxes are useless not Orders.

Your unsubstantiated opinion. The difference between having those meltaguns twin-linked or not or having twice as many shots firing at the orks on the way in can be huge in-game.


They [orders] are okay but I don't see them turning too many games into wins for me.

So you're looking for an "I win" button? It seems like you keep being negative because the IG codex isn't overpowered? I played a great game against a mechanized chaos army the other day and the orders absolutely saved my bacon. We always gauge our victories both on kill points and old-school victory points, just to have two perspectives. I lost slightly according to kill points, but had a minor victory according to victory points. If not for those orders, I probably wouldn't have had a unit left on the field of battle after turn 3.


(My army is going to be Light Infantry Vet based) Or certain army lists. (any Vet list). Maybe my Human Wave list.. but is FRFSRF really that useful? I mean they are lasguns we are talking about here. I can fire off 80 of them and cause maybe four wounds as it is.

If you're playing a human wave list then you'd better believe FRFSRF is going to be worth it. Yes, a lasgun shot is pathetic. 27 lasgun shots are something to take notice of, even for MEQs, and not every army out there is a MEQ.


Lumbering is one of many awesome rules in the new Codex.

Fixed that for you. :-)

Sholto
31-03-2009, 16:53
I like the idea of combining a pysker-heavy army with some Inquisitorial allies. A Primaris Psyker and an Elite Inquisitor attached to a Psyker Battle Squad could make for a fearsome unit. Nightshroud would help keep them safe, while the Inquisitor could effectively force one enemy unit per Turn to fall back with Divine Pronouncement plus the Ld nerf from the psykers.

Or use infiltrating Stormtroopers to cause a 1st Turn pinning check on a vital enemy shooty unit (Lootas, Broadsides) and the Psykers to ensure they fail it.

So many possibilities...!

I wonder if troops can grav-deploy during a Valkyrie's scout move?

Sholto

freddieyu
31-03-2009, 16:54
With lasguns, it can also swing the other way easily (meaning shooting 80 shots can also cause 15 wounds)..as any guard player knows..never underestimate the humble flashlight..just don't rely on it though better have a backup (like battlecannons).

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 16:58
Sure why not. Since OP lists are the standard of the day when it comes to new Codexes. if everyone else gets "I win" why do we get the Handicap of being "Fair"?

I want Vox to be worth fielding at all. (It doesn't transmit LD or Orders.. so what good is it) I have a ton of now worthless models thanks to the Vox rules that -I'm still stuck paying pts for-.

SPYDER68
31-03-2009, 17:00
I agree.. the Vox does suck now.. and few weeks ago i assembled 10 of them..and painted em.. :(

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 17:01
I agree.. the Vox does suck now.. and few weeks ago i assembled 10 of them..and painted em.. :(

Same here.

SPYDER68
31-03-2009, 17:06
My openion on the orders thou.. it will be good in small amounts..

heavy weapon squads shooting tanks is main thing.

Other then that.. if you put your win chance into relying on orders, your not gonna get very far.

greenbull
31-03-2009, 17:07
<<I agree.. the Vox does suck now.. and few weeks ago i assembled 10 of them..and painted em.. >>

Me too! I put them on my Death Korps weeks ago when the first rumours about voxes where promising and people said they would be a must have... I also ordered a Death Korps grenadier squad to serve as stormtroopers.:rolleyes:
I just held of ordering ogryns, mainly because I don't like the models so much.

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 17:10
I had Vox assembled because of the current Codex and the desire for LD 9 then I heard the Vox rumors -the next day- (the not good Vox rumors)... and now... ugh.

Marshal Sinclair
31-03-2009, 17:12
All my Krieg, Vostroyans and Cadians units have Vox units. I don't regret it, as they look good and add to the realism of the army. If you don't want to use them, just don't pay the points for them. I also have a 60 man Krieg Grenadier army which I can't use. Doesn't really matter though since I've gotten my fun out of them, and I can still use them in Apoc (bad answer I know).

Inquisitor_Tolheim
31-03-2009, 17:23
Hey guys, quick question:

How many heavy weapons will the platoon/company commanders be able to take? If you could take a commander with two lascannon teams put into a command chimera you'd pretty much see the death of heavy weapons teams. Done with the company command you'd have BS4 lascannons that could fire at a different target then the chimera, making a stable, relatively safe anti tank platform, all for slightly more then a heavy weapons team with lascannons.


I also have a 60 man Krieg Grenadier army which I can't use. Doesn't really matter though since I've gotten my fun out of them, and I can still use them in Apoc (bad answer I know).

What about vets with the carapace upgrade?

Marshal Sinclair
31-03-2009, 17:41
I suppose I could use them as that, but I might finally make that Daemon Hunters army I always wanted, and stick with my regular Kriegsmen for my Guard.

Don't forget that a Comd squad with 2 heavy weapons in a chimera / centaur will always be within Orders range (obvious, but worth mentioning I thought).

Bunnahabhain
31-03-2009, 17:42
Highly unlikey to be more than one heavy weapon per command squad.

Just the same as now, Guard command squads are vital to getting most of your men to do what they should, and are small, fragile, expensive units.

The last thing you want to do is to load them down with too many expensive upgrades, so making them a higher priority target.

With heavy weapons squads as part of the platoon, the only real limits on their numbers are points and background, so you can take whichever kind of Heavy weapon team you want. They're far from dead.

Steel Legion for Life
31-03-2009, 18:07
Is it a flamer a bargain at BS 4? Yeah, totally.

Math-hammer Comparison:

3 Plasma Gun Command Squad vs. 4 Flamer Command Squad both shooting 5 marines.
(I picked this number to get round numbers on the plasma guns; the flamers are one third the cost of the plasma guns remember)

6 plasma shots, 4 hits, 4 dead marines OR 2 dead marines in cover at 12" range; one dead guardsman.

18 Flamer hits, assuming a couple of the templates don't cover all marines, 9 wounds, 3 dead Marines in cover or not. Flamers in BS 4 guard hands are roughly St 4 Assault 6 guns in this scenario; which you'd take for 5 points.

And five marines is practically optimum target for the plasmas, which considering they're BS4 are in a HQ squad, and are thus 115 points. Compared to a flamer squad, which with a Lt is 50, and almost as effective against the optimum target.

Of course, you do that on Orks, it's 4 dead Orks with plasma or probably 95% of the squad dead with flamers. It's easy to lay down a template on an Ork mob and be like "13 hits, 12 hits, 12 hits, 10 hits".

The numbers for plasma guns go out of the window when you start dealing with ten man squads, and flamers are generating 7 or 8 hits per template.

So, are flamers are bargain? Yes.

I agree plasma guns may have a place, just not sure if 4 in a command squad is a good use of those weapon slots.

MrBims
31-03-2009, 18:49
flamers

You can't mathhammer flamers without taking into account the fact that plasma weapons will be able to shoot more times per match than flamers, given that the plasma gun is 24" rapid fire, while the flame template is only eight inches long. Also, flamers are virtually useless if they can be seen coming, as the Space Marine player should know to move his squad back, outside of the flamer range. You should never be able to get a flamer in range of enemy models without having them disembark out of a transport, or put on a model with 12" movement; if a footslogging flamer reaches the enemy lines, especially close enough to target more than one or two models, you're playing against someone who isn't thinking their strategy through very well.

Marshal Sinclair
31-03-2009, 19:08
This is the Imperial Guard you're talking about. People go toward your lines, not the other way around.

Lord Solar Plexus
31-03-2009, 19:26
Then it would have to be not in the squad at all, because of the defenders react rule and 2" assault.


Of course it isn't in the squad at all. :)



Second rank meaning a second squad? What do I just throw in a naked squad of guardsmen as Fodder for the "real squad"?

That's starting to sound expensive.

You mean you never play with more than one squad? :rolleyes:

Usually people will field more than one anyways. Usually one or the other will get charged at some point in time. If you happen to sport some crowd control guns, now would be the time to use them to good effect.


Furious charge explicitly states you get an extra attack as if you had charged

Um, what? Furious charge gives +1 S and +1 Ini.


Why? One rule says they get 2 attacks rather than 1 when they charge, which combines nicely with countercharge which gives you an extra attack exactly as if you had charged. Furious charge, on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of rules interaction.

Because they always get a +2 bonus when charging and have countercharge, which grants them their charge bonus 'exactly as if'.

They don't have furious charge, so that is irrelevant.



The orders are far from worthless. "Get Back in the Fight" will become indispencible halfway through the game


So the real question is how do we protect our precious colonel from dying inbetween. A Chimera w/ Camonet and a medic sound like a good idea. If needs must, he'll also be a little more mobile.



The last thing you want to do is to load them down with too many expensive upgrades, so making them a higher priority target.

With heavy weapons squads as part of the platoon, the only real limits on their numbers are points and background, so you can take whichever kind of Heavy weapon team you want. They're far from dead.

Command squads cannot rise any higher on the priority list, so loading them with kit isn't going to make it any worse.

HWS are deader than a dead...whatever it is that is very dead. Not the only but by far the biggest limit is kill points. 3 models = 1 KP = extremely bad.

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 19:32
I've never run a second squad -just for body bag- purposes before.

It's a totally alien way to think for me. None of my other armies require this sort of thinking. (and again... this sounds expensive on the pts... like less Armor, type expensive... cause that's -alot- of conscripts)

I run a squad give them armament and hope for the best. From what it sounds like I'm just better off shaving pts somewhere and buying Plasma or melta instead of keeping my Flamers given my play style isn't conducive to Imperial Body Bags.

Flamers are pretty much my Crowd Control weapons... I will admit part of this is because all of my armies are to varying degrees built around the idea of playing COD.

Steel Legion for Life
31-03-2009, 19:47
@Mr.Bims.

A.) As pointed out, the Marine player will usually come to you. If not, you have Chimeras, etc etc.

B.) Plasma guns have a 24" range; against a marine player coming to you, that's one shot extra per gun if he runs. The comparison was for close range, as for breaking up incoming assaulters etc.

The reason why is simple. 4 flamers can safely be hidden, and are cheap enough they can spend the game standing around playing cards and you hardly notice.

The plasma guns on the other hand, have to be visible to get that Mr.Bims endorsed 24" shot, and every BOLTGUN round they get back, let alone anything else bigger, kills one on a 3+. What marine player who is as bims puts it "is thinking their strategy through very well.." will not shoot these 5 guard, in a 115 point squad, each wound on which removes a 20 point mildly dangerous model? And two wounds on which forces a Ld7 panic test on?

I was pointing out that flamers are great for this counter charge role on command squads, and at 1/3rd the cost of a plasma gun, even a BS4 plasma gun, much cheaper and just as effective against marines; better against everything else. That's why I said "flamers are a bargain".

Oh, and if the marine player hangs back out of flamer range, you laugh and keep firing battlecannons & multilasers.

In short, ahem, my point stands.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
31-03-2009, 19:49
Highly unlikey to be more than one heavy weapon per command squad.

Why would that be? Currently the platoon command rules could be read to allow two heavy weapons. I don't have my codex in front of me, but it's something to the tune of "any two guardsmen in the command platoon may combine to form a single heavy weapons team and select from the following weapons..." So if single means that the two guardsmen are forming a single team then you could have two. If single means "one team per command squad" then you could only have one.

Either way I disagree that it would be a poor tactic. If you're going to put your command squad into a chimera for protection, you might as well give them a heavy weapon that can fire from the back lines. The 5 fire points rules in the new codex (coupled with the single model heavy weapons teams) means that you could fire both lascannons any turn in which the tank did not move, and the rules for units firing from transports means that the chimera can use its base multilaser and heavy bolter to shoot at infantry while the lascannons shoot at tanks/mcs. Give it camo and put it behind the guardsmen you're commanding and the tank has a 3+ save from any and every shot.

Conversely, you could take a heavy weapons team, give them three lascannons (or ml, or whatever) and put them into someone else's dedicated chimera. Same principles as above, but a lower BS and higher cost. Aside from that I couldn't see myself fielding heavy weapons teams, since their 2w, t3, profile with only three models to a kill point makes them uncomfortably squishy for my tastes.

EDIT:


Oh, and if the marine player hangs back out of flamer range, you laugh and keep firing battlecannons & multilasers.

I couldn't agree more. With how generally pathetic guardsmen are in close combat anything that keeps the fight at range is useful. If that something is as cheap as flamers, then all the better.

Steel Legion for Life
31-03-2009, 19:52
They're One Kp for three, but yeah, squidge city.

Bunnahabhain
31-03-2009, 20:10
Why would that be? Currently the platoon command rules could be read to allow two heavy weapons. I don't have my codex in front of me, but it's something to the tune of "any two guardsmen in the command platoon may combine to form a single heavy weapons team and select from the following weapons..." So if single means that the two guardsmen are forming a single team then you could have two. If single means "one team per command squad" then you could only have one.

Not according to conventional grammar, or the game as played. Having the codex in front of me, it reads, 'two guardsmen may form a single heavy weapons crew'


Either way I disagree that it would be a poor tactic. If you're going to put your command squad into a chimera for protection, you might as well give them a heavy weapon that can fire from the back lines. The 5 fire points rules in the new codex (coupled with the single model heavy weapons teams) means that you could fire both lascannons any turn in which the tank did not move, and the rules for units firing from transports means that the chimera can use its base multilaser and heavy bolter to shoot at infantry while the lascannons shoot at tanks/mcs. Give it camo and put it behind the guardsmen you're commanding and the tank has a 3+ save from any and every shot.

Conversely, you could take a heavy weapons team, give them three lascannons (or ml, or whatever) and put them into someone else's dedicated chimera. Same principles as above, but a lower BS and higher cost. Aside from that I couldn't see myself fielding heavy weapons teams, since their 2w, t3, 1kp profile makes them uncomfortably squishy for my tastes.

Once you've gone to the effort of putting the command squad in a chimera, giving them a heavy weapon as well isn't a bad idea, but neither is it clearly the best place for them.

Marshal Sinclair
31-03-2009, 20:13
2 Guardsmen may form a heavy weapons team. You have 4 guardsmen, therefore you can have 2 heavy weapons teams.

AlexCage
31-03-2009, 20:44
That's right! RUN SPACE MAREEN! Run at the fearsome power of the Flamer!

Yeah. You wanna shoot at me with your bolters for another round instead of assaulting me, that's all gravy with me. My guns is bigger.




Once you've gone to the effort of putting the command squad in a chimera, giving them a heavy weapon as well isn't a bad idea, but neither is it clearly the best place for them.

Unless it's a mortar. Relatively useless, but for 5pts you've basically given your 'theoretically' hidden command squad some teeth. And if you're bringing the MoO anyways, might as well add to the bombardment. (I get this mental image of "Father and Son" artillery shells flying through the air together. Little baby shell constantly asking "Are we there yet?!")

Treadhead_1st
31-03-2009, 20:52
2 Guardsmen may form a heavy weapons team. You have 4 guardsmen, therefore you can have 2 heavy weapons teams.

"2 Guardsmen may form a single heavy weapons crew"

Emphasis mine.

Further evidence, "Any guardsman not acting..may be armed with one of the following:"

There is a slight difference between the wording. The first being "a single crew" and the other being "any guardsman may be armed with"

Were the intent that you could take 2 heavy weapons it would be worded "any 2 guardsmen may form a heavy weapons crew"

Likewise, the infantry squad entry says "two guardsmen may form a heavy weapons crew" - exactly the same as the Command Squad - so by that logic we can have a squad of 4 heavy weapons, the Sergeant and a patsy. Which we clearly cannot do under the current (or rumoured) rules.

Marshal Sinclair
31-03-2009, 21:55
The rule could be read either way, but I always played with 2 mortars in my platoon command sections, and every Guard player I know plays similarly. It's a non issue anyway, considering a new book is out in a few weeks!

AlexCage
31-03-2009, 22:02
The rule could be read either way, but I always played with 2 mortars in my platoon command sections, and every Guard player I know plays similarly. It's a non issue anyway, considering a new book is out in a few weeks!

Right! It can be read the correct way, or the incorrect way! ;)

Where RAW is ambiguous, RAI does make a good tie breaker. Since the wording is the same for line squads, why would heavy weapons teams ever need to exist?

BUT! You are right, and the new book is nigh, thus a moot arguement. What is the internet for if not to host moot arguements?

Marshal Sinclair
31-03-2009, 22:13
I'd never thought to compare the wording, as I never saw any ambiguity.

MrBims
31-03-2009, 22:35
@Mr.Bims.

A.) As pointed out, the Marine player will usually come to you. If not, you have Chimeras, etc etc.

B.) Plasma guns have a 24" range; against a marine player coming to you, that's one shot extra per gun if he runs. The comparison was for close range, as for breaking up incoming assaulters etc.

The reason why is simple. 4 flamers can safely be hidden, and are cheap enough they can spend the game standing around playing cards and you hardly notice.

The plasma guns on the other hand, have to be visible to get that Mr.Bims endorsed 24" shot, and every BOLTGUN round they get back, let alone anything else bigger, kills one on a 3+. What marine player who is as bims puts it "is thinking their strategy through very well.." will not shoot these 5 guard, in a 115 point squad, each wound on which removes a 20 point mildly dangerous model? And two wounds on which forces a Ld7 panic test on?

I was pointing out that flamers are great for this counter charge role on command squads, and at 1/3rd the cost of a plasma gun, even a BS4 plasma gun, much cheaper and just as effective against marines; better against everything else. That's why I said "flamers are a bargain".

Oh, and if the marine player hangs back out of flamer range, you laugh and keep firing battlecannons & multilasers.

In short, ahem, my point stands.

Your point stands under the terribly unlikely situation that a Marine player is going to want to charge you with S4 A1 models that allow armor saves. Those kinds of assaults happen out of desperation, not as a common occurence. SM players charge with Terminators and ASM, not tactical squads, and good luck killing either with flamers. You can't just mathhammer a rigged equation and expect it to play out on the tabletop like that. It can work with Chimeras, yes, but a proper player will never let himself be caught by a flame weapon he can very clearly see.

And again, with Plasma guns, you're running under the unlikely assumption that the targets are going to moving towards you instead of moving to cover and firing back. Against melee-oriented units like Assault Terminators or Berserkers that will be true, but tactical squads will never be caught charging at you when given the option of staying behind cover and trading their superior long-ranged fire at IG infantry. If you want to put Battlecannons and the like into the equation, then that just makes cover all the more attractive.

Steel Legion for Life
31-03-2009, 22:49
By your own admission, it's pretty likely I can flame ASM or terminators; my example stands for ASM. The terminators will take one/two casualties on average from the flamers, the assault terminators I see (with at least a couple of Storm Shields) will take maybe one casualty from BS 4 plasma guns?

Even regular terminators will only take two casualties most of the time.

So, in fact, Flamers are...about the same vs. the terminators. Especially as to be effective, the terminators have to be within a 12" range.

And that's assuming it's five man squads; the more models the marine has, the better the flamer is.

Any points about tactics don't really come into it, as it becomes a "but I could do this/but i could do this" discussion. I dispute "never get caught with flamers if you're a good player" as I've done it to Simone Di Tomaso at the UK GT on the top table, and he's won more GTs than anyone else.

For the record, when playing all infantry guard, I tend to use my flamer squads just behind a thick wall of guard between them and the enemy, a wall which moves when the flamers need to go in. I tend to move around the table with maneuver units of 20 Conscripts, back up by Lts with meltaguns and Special weapon teams with flamers and demo charges.

Regardless of the math-hammer, the point of the discussion was that 4 Flamers in a squad cost 1/3rd of 3 Plasma guns, and I was pointing out that they were a bargain, especially for a predominantly BS 3 army. So, a 50pt squad and a 115 pt squad have a similar damage output; which would you use, even if one is harder to use? And that's against marines! Against lots of other things, the damage potential of the multiple flamers in command sections goes up.

Not to say you don't need AP2 elsewhere; just saying the 4 special weapon slots in that squad at the optimum use flamers, as a counter assault unit, on a cost/benefit analysis.

And if a marine player hangs back and tries to outshoot Guard, well, good luck. If a guard army can't win that firefight, not much point in playing the army. In terms of your analysis of cover, at what point do plasma guns in command squads seem better? Wouldn't you as a space marine player shoot those?

Killgore
01-04-2009, 00:53
I came to the conclusion rather a long time ago that 4 flamers in a command squad is a pretty good idea, and was always puzzled why other people didnt do the same as me

the fact that the HQ command squad's BS is now slightly better doesnt change my opinion that one of the finest counter attack assets in 5th ed for the guard should be armed with Flamers

you hide them behind a wall of guardsmen, give out a few orders, wait for the inevitable charges whilst gaining a 4+ cover save from whatever shooting comes your way, when the guardsmen in front are dead move forward and burn!

any attempt at screening a plasma command squad in 5th ed will render the ap2 of the plasma ineffective due to the cover saves, and stick them in cover you may not be in valuable orders range (im a order fan)

you save a ton of points, dont run the risk of frying your valuable men (thus reducing the chances of legging it lol) and your more near the battle line supporting your troops like a good command squad should be

Inquisitor_Tolheim
01-04-2009, 03:54
"2 Guardsmen may form a single heavy weapons crew"

Emphasis mine.

Further evidence, "Any guardsman not acting..may be armed with one of the following:"

There is a slight difference between the wording. The first being "a single crew" and the other being "any guardsman may be armed with"

Were the intent that you could take 2 heavy weapons it would be worded "any 2 guardsmen may form a heavy weapons crew"

Likewise, the infantry squad entry says "two guardsmen may form a heavy weapons crew" - exactly the same as the Command Squad - so by that logic we can have a squad of 4 heavy weapons, the Sergeant and a patsy. Which we clearly cannot do under the current (or rumoured) rules.

Hmmm. Never compared the wording between the two before. That clears it up for me. Thanks.


Once you've gone to the effort of putting the command squad in a chimera, giving them a heavy weapon as well isn't a bad idea, but neither is it clearly the best place for them.

I dunno, with the added vehicle survivability of 5th edition and the ability to use orders from a tank with the rumored "mobile command center" upgrade a chimera firmly behind a line of instant 4+ tank cover saves seems like one of the safer places to be. The tank allows the HQ to relocate quickly if needed, and gives it a bit of extra firepower oomph. Even if the transport gets popped (not unlikely given what it's carrying) the HQ squad simply comes out with a dangerous terrain test and then can act just like a squad that hadn't bothered with the transport. For 55 points it seems like an acceptable amount of upside against the potential downsides and cost.

Where would you say is clearly the best place for them?

Steel Legion for Life
01-04-2009, 19:08
I think the Chimera as mobile bunker army is well worth a shot, tbh.

Captain Micha
01-04-2009, 19:11
In my local metagame it's probably suicide... they really like popping vehicles in my area.

electricblooz
01-04-2009, 19:33
I think it's pretty obvious what the power builds of this codex are going to be: A 50 man naked tarpit platoon gathered around your tanks to prevent them from getting mauled by CC (tanks the only way tanks die to shooting is DS meltaspam, so shooting can effectively be ignored) coupled with outflanking melta and flamer vet teams. Throw in a RR squad (the only unit in the codex that begins to approach the efficency of the other codeses "Iwin" buttons) and a command squad that cowers behind everything throwing FRFSRF at thetarpit unit (so they can do something besides die).

Steel Legion for Life
01-04-2009, 19:39
That "powerbuild" sounds a bit average IMHO. I'm sure there's better things that can be done once we examine (break) the codex in detail.

I'm not sure how efficient the one shot RR unit is either.

Steel Legion for Life
01-04-2009, 19:41
@Micha - One of the nicest thing about the all Chimera mounted army is that it a.) invalidates all but invalidates all anti-infantry weapons in your opponents army and b.) it makes him spread the anti tank firepower he has among far more targets.

Try it; you might like it:)

Captain Micha
01-04-2009, 19:44
Maybe... but my enemy has 3 Broadsides, two hammerheads and Fire Knifes. *L*

And that's alot of cash for transports.....

What's the magical number of vehicles that all but guarantees Russ Survival?

I like my Body Bag Brigades too though. :D

I can see a few power builds with this codex. It'll be interesting to see how many other guard players pick up on them after being in Nerf Mode for so long.

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 19:47
I think it's pretty obvious what the power builds of this codex are going to be: A 50 man naked tarpit platoon gathered around your tanks to prevent them from getting mauled by CC (tanks the only way tanks die to shooting is DS meltaspam, so shooting can effectively be ignored) coupled with outflanking melta and flamer vet teams. Throw in a RR squad (the only unit in the codex that begins to approach the efficency of the other codeses "Iwin" buttons) and a command squad that cowers behind everything throwing FRFSRF at thetarpit unit (so they can do something besides die).


50man tarpit gets charged, lose 10, loses combat.. runs.. sweeping advanced

AlexCage
01-04-2009, 20:00
50man tarpit gets charged, lose 10, loses combat.. runs.. sweeping advanced

That's why we make them stubborn. Which is actually pretty damn easy to do.

Vegeta365
01-04-2009, 20:05
Unless it's a mortar. Relatively useless, but for 5pts you've basically given your 'theoretically' hidden command squad some teeth. And if you're bringing the MoO anyways, might as well add to the bombardment. (I get this mental image of "Father and Son" artillery shells flying through the air together. Little baby shell constantly asking "Are we there yet?!")[/QUOTE]


Not got the codex in my hands this second, but you have made me think of something potentially awesome! I would assume that ordnance barrage would be done sepperately to barrage, but if you could conbine them like you propose, what's to stop you taking it one stage further. If you placed the more accurate mortar shell first you could avoid the master of ordnance's barrage scattering further away as the worst case scenario would be an arrow making it travel hardly any distance away from target in comparison to how far it can scatter! I will have a detailed look at both the codex and rulebook later to check as I can't see this being the case unfortunately. If it is however!

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 20:06
Still.. 50 guardsmen = 300 pts ?

Not a chance its worth it to just shield tanks with 1 large unit.

Also if you mean the Special character that replaces a commander for stubborn.. that wont work.

AlexCage
01-04-2009, 20:17
Still.. 50 guardsmen = 300 pts ?

Not a chance its worth it to just shield tanks with 1 large unit.

Also if you mean the Special character that replaces a commander for stubborn.. that wont work.


It... won't? Why?

Well how about the Platoon Special Character(Chenkov)? Or the Commissar Lord? Or just a regular Commissar? 35 pts to make them effectively BETTER than stubborn.

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 20:22
If you take a commisar sure.. but imo they still are a waste of points.

btw commanders come in a squad of 5.. and last i heard.. command squads cannot merge into infantry platoons.

Steel Legion for Life
01-04-2009, 20:29
And lets face it, 50 is hardly the efficient squad size. 30 is more like it, and they're probably conscripts. Much more viable at 120 pts.

Tarpits of various shapes and sizes are viable, so long as you're willing to pay +35 for the untargetable commissar to make them all-but-fearless (Ld test, Execute, then Ld 9 Stubborn).

Also, the Commissar seems much less of a waste of points with no leadership bubbles and bigger squads. In a 30 man squad for example, he's +1pt per model for fearless. Sounds good to me.

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 20:43
Fearless and close to fearless is a huge difference.. and the difference from LD 8-9 is not worth 35 ish points per squad.

electricblooz
01-04-2009, 20:55
That's why we make them stubborn. Which is actually pretty damn easy to do.

Exactly - one commisar purchased as a squad upgrade (NOT an IC) for a couple of points more than 2 SM makes that entire unit stuborn. Just to make sure I'm being clear, if you purchase just one commisar and that commisar's squad merges with others than the whole merged unit gets the benefits of commisar becasue in all respects it's treated as one unit. I do admit that two unit of 30 would likely be better than one unit of 50.

And like I said - tanks and outflanking vets are the killing power in this new codex. 300 points for a unit that insure no pesky Nob biker is ever going to be able to ride up and smack the back of your tanks is well worth the cost. Plus, that unit only gives up one KP.

Rough Riders are a one-shot wonder, but point for point they are the most efficient unit there is.

I also wonder about the issue of squadroning barrage weapons and what happens when you do. The mortar/MoO seems fairly complex and probably very difficult to figure out - how about this easier one? 1 Griffon and 2 Colossuses (Colossi?). On paper it seems like a pretty straight forward and useful combo (if a bit pricey), especially given the Griffons ability re-roll scatter. But what, for instance, happens if the Griffon shot scatters inside the minimum range of the Colossus guns?

Coming soon to a rules debate near you....

AlexCage
01-04-2009, 21:00
Fearless and close to fearless is a huge difference.. and the difference from LD 8-9 is not worth 35 ish points per squad.

For a tarpit I'd take LD 8-9 Stubborn over Fearless ANY day. Fearless is a liability to tarpits. It just means they kill through them way faster.

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 21:02
hate to tell you.. An ork player has more then a nob biker squad..

LD 9 can be failed if you make enough tests..

Oh yea.. that big squad just to guard a few tanks ? what are ya gonna do vs non ork armies ? :P

50 guardsmen can die very fast... even to nob bikers with tons of attacks and shots before the charge.

Complete waste of points for a squad that big :P

AlexCage
01-04-2009, 21:04
But what, for instance happens if the Griffon shot scatters inside the minimum range of the Colossus guns?

Coming soon to a rules debate near you....

I don't see why wouldn't be covered under the current rules, where you can scatter under your minimum distance (and I quite often do).

But does the Griffon/Basi or Griffon/Colosi combo seem a little broken? Honestly, even if the damn thing didn't have a strength profile and just acted as a target finder, I'd be tempted to take it. I think every battery I take will now have a Griffon command tank to spot...

On the subject of the MoO+Mortar, I'm sure the MoO isn't considered his shooting. But a rules lawyer might be able to argue it based on how it's worded. We shall see!

Steel Legion for Life
01-04-2009, 21:07
They are pretty close to fearless; better about 90% of the time.

First time you lose a combat, there's an execution, bam auto pass. Auto pass is better than fearless because there's no extra wounds.

Every subsequent time you lose, you take an L9 test, in all likelihood with a re-roll for the standard. And still no fearless wounds.

In squads at 30 men plus, it's well worth it.

It's especially worth it to tie up a big combat squad for a turn or so, for a minimal points outlay.

electricblooz
01-04-2009, 21:18
hate to tell you.. An ork player has more then a nob biker squad..

apparently not very many if you look at how most Ork armies are being played :p


Oh yea.. that big squad just to guard a few tanks ? what are ya gonna do vs non ork armies ? :P

Uhm - Kill em with the tanks? Because pretty much that and melta/flamer spam vets are the only things that are gonna do any significant killing in the new codex anyway.

Look nobody is saying this build is going to be winning any GT's - the fact is the new IG Codex is still a tier-two book - we just went from being a C- to a C+ army. Improvement, yes, but not of the likes that the Ork codex saw (for instance).


Complete waste of points for a squad that big :P

Well duh - I've already said that the only thing in the codex that comes close to the point efficiency of say nob bikers or CSM is the Rough Riders, and they're still a one-hit wonder! Our main killy units in the codex are overcosted by about 10%-12% across the board, our supposedly uber-elite unit of MEQ death is overcosted by at least 15% and (in most discussions) is coupled with an expensive transport that will be shot down by turn 2 (presuming the IG is not so stupid as to start the thing on the board if he's going second). In short, yes it's a waste of points, but you know what? It's less of a waste of points than so many other things in the codex that compared to them it becomes the best choice.


I don't see why wouldn't be covered under the current rules, where you can scatter under your minimum distance (and I quite often do).

Ah, but is the Colossus shot scattering under the minimum distance (allowed) or choosing to fire under the minimum distance? Honestly, I don't know how to resolve that question - the multi barrage rules say you scatter from the original template, but you still have a choice of whether or not every weapon in the squad fires and it could be argued that if the Colossus chooses to fire then it's target point is the point where the Griff shell landed (which we are supposing is inside the Colo's range), making the shot illegal to take in the first place. Frankly, I sure hope it works because it would be one nice little bone thrown to us IG players (effectively negating the Colo's and Bassie's minimum range).


But does the Griffon/Basi or Griffon/Colosi combo seem a little broken? Honestly, even if the damn thing didn't have a strength profile and just acted as a target finder, I'd be tempted to take it. I think every battery I take will now have a Griffon command tank to spot...

At this point - I'm past caring whether other people think it's broken or not. I have never tailored my armies or played Drop-Plas spam. I was hoping this codex would give enough of a boost to the Guard that I could continue playing my armies my way and not have to presume that I'd be going into every match with one hand tied behind my back.


On the subject of the MoO+Mortar, I'm sure the MoO isn't considered his shooting. But a rules lawyer might be able to argue it based on how it's worded. We shall see!

I have no idea - I think you're probably right, but who knows?

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 21:29
Rough Riders are ok, i modeled a squad on cold ones awhile back, used em in a tourney, then put em on the shelf..

Thou.. they will be better now that they can have hunting lances and assault weapons.

If guard is a C- now.. and i rarely lose.. i cant wait till i finally get ahold of this book :P

Guard codex is going to be balanced.. but you seem to think its a piece of crap calling it a C book...

btw.. nob bikers arent hard to kill if you know wtf your doing.

electricblooz
01-04-2009, 21:36
Rough Riders are ok, i modeled a squad on cold ones awhile back, used em in a tourney, then put em on the shelf..

Thou.. they will be better now that they can have hunting lances and assault weapons.

btw.. nob bikers arent hard to kill if you know what your doing and your Ork opponent is an idiot.

fixed that for you

Steel Legion for Life
01-04-2009, 21:50
The problem with guard in competitive play at the moment is killpoints, killpoints, vehicles being bitches for assault, killpoints and did I mention killpoints? I'm so glad this is being fixed.

It's also hardly the "Powergamers choice" army, and realistically it never will be. But I think we like it that way.

AlexCage
01-04-2009, 21:54
[QUOTE=electricblooz;3429146]

Ah, but is the Colossus shot scattering under the minimum distance (allowed) or choosing to fire under the minimum distance? Honestly, I don't know how to resolve that question - the multi barrage rules say you scatter from the original template, but you still have a choice of whether or not every weapon in the squad fires and it could be argued that if the Colossus chooses to fire then it's target point is the point where the Griff shell landed (which we are supposing is inside the Colo's range), making the shot illegal to take in the first place. Frankly, I sure hope it works because it would be one nice little bone thrown to us IG players (effectively negating the Colo's and Bassie's minimum range).

HRRRRMM!! You raise an interesting conundrum! As far as I recall, the rulebook only stipulates that you measure the range after your shot is declared, and if found to be within minium range, is discarded as a miss. But if you only measure the range on the Griffon, which would likely be within range, the Colosi never measures range, it only scatters off the Griffon (whatever fired first).

One could even use this arguement to ignore the Griffon's MAXIMUM range!

Unless I'm missing something from the book that prevents this from happenning. It doesn't really covered mixed weapons in the same ordnance barrage, does it?

Marshal Sinclair
01-04-2009, 22:07
You are choosing to fire at the template, which you then scatter from. Since the template you chose to fire at is within your minimum range your shot fails. It's simple, and any twisting of the rules to try and legally cheat will surely be frowned upon. Come on guys, you're supposed to be Imperial Guard players, act like it!

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 22:09
fixed that for you

Who is the noob/idiot ? The one who cries and builds his army vs a nob biker squad ? or one that can figure out how to deal with them and still pull a win ?

Not saying they can be dealt with easy every time... but some make them sound worse then they are...

Marshal Sinclair
01-04-2009, 22:11
The one comes on the internet and brag about this stuff without providing evidence, then mistakenly believes people will care.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
01-04-2009, 22:16
You are choosing to fire at the template, which you then scatter from. Since the template you chose to fire at is within your minimum range your shot fails.

What he said. The minimum range limit is clearly intended to stop the weapon from intentionally firing under the minimum range. I think AlexCage indicated how ridiculous the argument is when he turned it around: Clearly the Griffon shouldn't magically be able to fire farther because it's next to a Collossus, and so the inverse should not be true either.

Solar_Eclipse
01-04-2009, 23:43
Also, you need to measure minimum range from all of your weapons you are firing.

Its like saying: "hmm...my lascannon is in 36" range and thus my bolters are aswell"

Vegeta365
02-04-2009, 21:54
apparently not very many if you look at how most Ork armies are being played :p



Uhm - Kill em with the tanks? Because pretty much that and melta/flamer spam vets are the only things that are gonna do any significant killing in the new codex anyway.

Look nobody is saying this build is going to be winning any GT's - the fact is the new IG Codex is still a tier-two book - we just went from being a C- to a C+ army. Improvement, yes, but not of the likes that the Ork codex saw (for instance).

With regards to the ordnance there is nothing to stop you conbining barrage weopons together. If this takes you over youre minimum/maximum that is fine by the rules. It doesn't make sense but thats not new is it. Rules wise all is good.


Even better for the Master Of Ordnance and a mortar. All is good as I said I thought it was and this is one of few abusable rules in the gaurd codex!

Well duh - I've already said that the only thing in the codex that comes close to the point efficiency of say nob bikers or CSM is the Rough Riders, and they're still a one-hit wonder! Our main killy units in the codex are overcosted by about 10%-12% across the board, our supposedly uber-elite unit of MEQ death is overcosted by at least 15% and (in most discussions) is coupled with an expensive transport that will be shot down by turn 2 (presuming the IG is not so stupid as to start the thing on the board if he's going second). In short, yes it's a waste of points, but you know what? It's less of a waste of points than so many other things in the codex that compared to them it becomes the best choice.



Ah, but is the Colossus shot scattering under the minimum distance (allowed) or choosing to fire under the minimum distance? Honestly, I don't know how to resolve that question - the multi barrage rules say you scatter from the original template, but you still have a choice of whether or not every weapon in the squad fires and it could be argued that if the Colossus chooses to fire then it's target point is the point where the Griff shell landed (which we are supposing is inside the Colo's range), making the shot illegal to take in the first place. Frankly, I sure hope it works because it would be one nice little bone thrown to us IG players (effectively negating the Colo's and Bassie's minimum range).



At this point - I'm past caring whether other people think it's broken or not. I have never tailored my armies or played Drop-Plas spam. I was hoping this codex would give enough of a boost to the Guard that I could continue playing my armies my way and not have to presume that I'd be going into every match with one hand tied behind my back.



I have no idea - I think you're probably right, but who knows?

With regards to the ordnance there is nothing to stop you conbining barrage weopons together. If this takes you over youre minimum/maximum that is fine by the rules. It doesn't make sense but thats not new is it. Rules wise al is good. Even better for the MOO and a mortar. All is good as I said I thought it was and this is one of few abusable rules in the gaurd codex!

Marshal Sinclair
02-04-2009, 22:49
Try it against me and I pack up my toys! We all know it's not supposed to do that, so it's cheating.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
03-04-2009, 03:55
Try it against me and I pack up my toys! We all know it's not supposed to do that, so it's cheating.

I might accept the mortar ranging shot with a MoO. That's a clever little combination and could be sufficiently explained with a bit of fluff. Sure it's a strong boost to the MoO, but the amount of scatter he has honestly makes him a tad overcosted IMO.

But the Griffin to make a Colossus fire under range trick? There's no reasonable explanation for that, and it just reeks of rules lawyering in the highest degree. Anyone in my gaming group who tried that would get laughed out of the game.

Lord Solar Plexus
03-04-2009, 08:27
The problem with guard in competitive play at the moment is killpoints, killpoints, vehicles being bitches for assault, killpoints and did I mention killpoints? I'm so glad this is being fixed.

Where is this fixed? It isn't. In the last tourney (1850 points) I faced Eldar (11 KP), Daemons (10 or 11), Orks (12 but he fielded 3 indie koptas), SM (10). My army had 23. My new army that I feel somewhat comfortable playing with could possibly go down to 13-14 but only if I field no HWS, SWS, Sentinels or any of the MSU stuff and merge all squads in my platoons. Which frankly oftentimes makes no sense if you want to have more than one type of weapon in your squads.

Marshal Sinclair
03-04-2009, 09:09
What is MoO?

An infantry mounted mortar could never be used as a ranging shot for a vehicle mounted gun. A regular infantry carried mortar has a range of 600m-1km depending on the size, whereas for a self propelled gun (read: Basilisk) has a range in excess of 25km. I'd expect 40k weapon systems to have much longer range than modern ones (and modern ones can be extended to 75km)!

Mojaco
03-04-2009, 09:44
I'm just going to file these rules problems into the folder 'things that are a problem on paper but noone will actually do in real life'. Pweew, that folder is getting big!

Brotheroracle
03-04-2009, 10:47
The mortar+MoO is clever and bound to **** people off, but on the other hand its realistic. In age where gps no longer exists (or laser range finders/laser target painters) there would have to be ways to figure out where the shots will land and one way would be a mortar. a mortar is a simple device and with some math a 5th grader could do you can figure out how far the shot will travel..... or they just use a mortar shell with some-kinda locator beacon, so in short fluffy? yes. intentional? probably not. broken or game winning? I doubt.

Mojaco
03-04-2009, 10:53
a mortar is a simple device and with some math a 5th grader could do you can figure out how far the shot will travel.....

How does that help a space ship dozens of miles above? :)

Marshal Sinclair
03-04-2009, 11:17
What makes you think GPS and Target painters are not used anymore? :rolleyes: There are even models with them! Teleporter Homers and Targetors...

How is a mortar going to aid the aim of an artillery piece? Please, I'd love to hear your expert (or even logical) reason for believing that.

Logarithm Udgaur
03-04-2009, 12:38
Mortar shoots smoke, artillery/ship/whale/potted plant fires on smoke.

Captain Micha
03-04-2009, 12:57
I have to ask.. cause it's a rather obvious thing to do in my mind.


Why didn't they put a Hellhound style weapon on a Leman Russ? :D

I mean we have Hellblades.... (Hellhound cannon Baneblades!)

And we have just about everything else under the sun.... that would have been awesome! (could even make it longer range since it's not as quick as a Hellhound)

Raxmei
03-04-2009, 13:05
I have to ask.. cause it's a rather obvious thing to do in my mind.


Why didn't they put a Hellhound style weapon on a Leman Russ? :D

I mean we have Hellblades.... (Hellhound cannon Baneblades!)

And we have just about everything else under the sun.... that would have been awesome! (could even make it longer range since it's not as quick as a Hellhound)What, you mean something like a 36" S6 Ap4 heavy1 large blast turret weapon that ignores cover saves? No way anything like that is going to get put on a Russ, not in a million years.

Captain Micha
03-04-2009, 13:06
It's not a flamer template. It's not the same! :)

So reflavoring the Large Blast no cover one to be a napalm shell now...

Bunnahabhain
03-04-2009, 13:47
What is MoO?

An infantry mounted mortar could never be used as a ranging shot for a vehicle mounted gun. A regular infantry carried mortar has a range of 600m-1km depending on the size, whereas for a self propelled gun (read: Basilisk) has a range in excess of 25km. I'd expect 40k weapon systems to have much longer range than modern ones (and modern ones can be extended to 75km)!

Nonsense.

A standard man portable infantry mortar is 80-82mm, and in WW2 had a 2-3km range as standard, and virtually every modern one has a range of 5-6km.

An infantry mortar and a medium calibre artillery gun do have totally different ballistic performances, so a ranging shot is out of the question, but using a smoke round from the mortar, to provide an aiming point for the heavier artillery is possible, and sensible.


EDIT


Mortar shoots smoke, artillery/ship/whale/potted plant fires on smoke.

I'm sigging that.

Marshal Sinclair
03-04-2009, 17:40
The mortars I trained on were 50mm (or there about!) and had a range of around 1km. How is something 10km+ away going to aim at a smoke shell from a mortar round? It's not. Artillery aim at a grid reference, using forward observers to alter the angle of the shot to aim it on target. Even if it could somehow see the smoke it would be no more accurate to aim at it than to aim at a grid reference.

Mosedeke
03-04-2009, 17:57
Exactly. The point of artillery is to lob shells from out of sight, so setting down smoke to hit something isn't going to help in the slightest. Only use I could see would be for infantry or scout squads to pick their targets, hit it with smoke, then have the Forward Observer/ Master of Ordnance call it in to the artillery. Even then that's kind of dubious, since the MoO should be able to assess himself what needs to be shot apart.

Now if you wanted to rational the MoO calling down close air support from planes, then that would make enough sense to slip by, but saying an artillery piece 15km away is going to see a 5m high smoke signal and will be able to shoot it without precise map co-ordinates is just silly.

Bunnahabhain
03-04-2009, 18:03
It actually makes more sense for a mortar, or other HE weapon, to drop a marker smoke round onto their target, and then for the master of ordnance/ forward observer to aim at the smoke round, as he's just got a radio call from 1 platoon asking for fire support on the purple smoke, and he can contact the artillery with the grid reference of the purple smoke, as he has a longer range radio.

Also, if it was an airstrike, rather than tube artillery, then hitting the smoke makes perfect sense.


In short, it's 40K, it's not supposed to be realistic. This isn't as bad as some of the things that go on.

EDIT Ninja'd

Brotheroracle
03-04-2009, 18:33
What makes you think GPS and Target painters are not used anymore? :rolleyes: There are even models with them! Teleporter Homers and Targetors...

How is a mortar going to aid the aim of an artillery piece? Please, I'd love to hear your expert (or even logical) reason for believing that.

In theory the MoO knows where he is and the artillery knows where they are, so you fire the mortar see where the shot lands and then call in a strike 200 yards from grid A9 15 degrees southwest and if the the round has a smoke or a locator component or is simply white phosphorus the spotter in a plane/spaceship can either do the strike or relay the info to the bassies hiding on the other table 10 ft away lol, the point is because you can figure out how far a mortar will travel and then see where the mortar lands you could call in a strike with greater precision.

And as far as laser target painters go it seems only the tau use them (marker light) no other list has any kinda rules that depict them, but then again maybe they dont work for the gaurd because of all the flashlights the men carry

Marshal Sinclair
03-04-2009, 19:38
40k doesn't have rules to depict pencils. I doubt that means the Imperium (who can travel through alternate dimensions, create energy shields and teleport people) can't make something as low tech as a pencil (or a target painter).

A mortar can only be used as a ranging shot for other mortars.

Lord Cook
03-04-2009, 20:22
40k doesn't have rules to depict pencils.

On the contrary, I have seen an officer conversion where the man was holding a pencil. Given that it's a one handed implement, it counts as a close combat weapon, giving it the same stats as a chainsword. Clearly the Imperium has devastatingly well sharpened and fearsome pencils.

RichBlake
03-04-2009, 20:23
On the contrary, I have seen an officer conversion where the man was holding a pencil. Given that it's a one handed implement, it counts as a close combat weapon, giving it the same stats as a chainsword. Clearly the Imperium has devastatingly well sharpened and fearsome pencils.

"Then pen[cil] is mightier then the sword" my dear Cook!

MegaPope
03-04-2009, 20:38
Aiming indirect fire from Bassies etc, at the fall of shot of a Griffon under their minimum range is not cricket IMO. That is going into liberty-taking territory.

MoO using a Mortar shot to range in his own support fire? I'd be cool with that, provided the Mortar was in his own unit.

Pity that a fair number of opportunities that could have exploited the Vox-Net have been ignored. It could've been the Guard's equivalent to the Tau markerlight system.

One thing that does confuse me...it seems the Hydra can squadron with artillery batteries. Unless you really like Medusas, how is that going to work?

And the Manticore can't squadron at all...that is a shame :rolleyes::D. Mind you, I'm looking forward to using a pair of them against an Ork army!

Raxmei
03-04-2009, 20:49
One thing that does confuse me...it seems the Hydra can squadron with artillery batteries. Unless you really like Medusas, how is that going to work?Same as any other squadron. Obviously you do not fire the hydra as part of a multiple barrage, but you do still shoot the whole squadron at the same target. If the hydra doesn't have LOS its shots miss automatically.

Marshal Sinclair
03-04-2009, 20:50
Anti-Aircraft weaponry is the domain of Artillery regiments. It belongs to Air Defence Batteries in the Royal Artillery (it's where you need to go if you want to actually meet women in the RA). You wouldn't group 2 Basilisks and a Hydra together, although you might have 2 or 3 Hydras in a battery to defend against you friends Thunderhawk or something.

decker_cky
03-04-2009, 21:29
I have a feeling that especially once a plastic hydra model comes out, hydras and officers of the fleet will make many of the conventional skimmer uses much less popular. And while the officer of the fleet will be a waste sometimes, there's always a use for autocannons, particularly ones with range to hit anything on the board.

Captain Micha
04-04-2009, 13:27
Hydra's have improved range?

MajorWesJanson
04-04-2009, 13:41
Hydra autocannons are 72"

Captain Micha
04-04-2009, 13:42
that is disgusting.. be great for those Spearhead games muwahhaha.

Xandros
04-04-2009, 14:11
Having a fleet liaison will be extremely useful for those static armies like Krieg.

Steel Legion for Life
05-04-2009, 14:28
I get the impression I play with far more terrain than most people; I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the amount of time I've taken shots at over a 48" range, in eight years of playing guard.

Think about it; the normal board sizes are 4'x4' or 6'x4'. The GT uses 6'x4'. Most enemy armies are closing with guard, either to use their shorter ranged weapons or to assault you.

It's very hard to play a Jacky Fisher-esque "outrange the enemy at all costs" game, simply because on a 40k board you don't have anywhere to retreat to; occasionally, you are able to exploit an opponent's refused flank for this, but not that often.

Personally, I feel a range over 48" is as useful as amphibious on Chimeras; awesome in about one game in 50, useless most of the time.

decker_cky
05-04-2009, 16:18
But having the range to shoot from anywhere on the board to anywhere not completely out of line of sight is useful. You've never had a problem getting too close to your opponents with a demolisher? A LRBT has huge range so it's a factor you don't worry about. And chimeras have the range to sit back as far as they want while hiding and shooting at anything.

With hydras, it's not the biggest issue, but it's something. It means those skimmers won't be able to hide even if they try to, and that makes it a very valuable vehicle indeed.

Lionsbane
05-04-2009, 16:37
I think every game I've played in the past month having a range over 36" has mattered. 48" is not that difficult to come by on a 4x6 table unless all your fire lanes are parallel to the short table edges.

Captain Micha
06-04-2009, 13:23
36" is really all you need. But having the -extra- range never hurts.

Especially since range is pretty cheap pts wise (cause even Gw has realized more or less that range really isn't as important as they used to think it was)

Ekranoplan
06-04-2009, 17:21
Hi,

I have a question about the Vendetta/Valkyrie.

They have the Grav-Chute Insertion special rule for deploying troops as DSing, with the advantage of being able to deploy if moveing more then 12 inches. But if I move less then 12 inches can I still just deploy my troops like it was a normal skimmer, or can they only be deployed with the grav-chute insertion rule?

Captain Micha
06-04-2009, 17:23
No clue. But it is a very good question.

The only rules I've seen regarding the Vendetta/Valkyrie is the Grav Chute Insertion.
I'm assuming that's the only way to use them, since The Dude's Summary said nothing about normal disembarking.

LordofWar1986
06-04-2009, 17:26
They have the Grav-Chute Insertion special rule for deploying troops as DSing, with the advantage of being able to deploy if moveing more then 12 inches. But if I move less then 12 inches can I still just deploy my troops like it was a normal skimmer, or can they only be deployed with the grav-chute insertion rule?

Well that will be probably answered in the codex by saying "anytime you want to disembark units out of the Valk/Vend you have to do the grav-chute insertion as described as such and such on page blah blah."

If it doesn't say anything like that then you will be able to disembark units out of it like normal skimmer transports providing you don't move over 12" . That will not be the grav-chute insertion ;)

GreenDracoBob
06-04-2009, 19:08
Not saying anything about it in the summary doesn't mean anything. If it did, then we could make a Marine rumor summary, saying "Hey, it looks like they still can get Land Raiders in Heavy Support" and then assuming that just because that specific rumor has nothing to do with transporting units, it obviously can't. I'm thinking the Valkyrie's new rule is meant to represent the old Drop Troop doctrine in a way, as well as the ability normal Flyers have to disembark Jump Infantry along their path.

The old Flyer Valkyrie also had Hover Mode, which allowed to act as a skimmer and disembark units normally as a skimmer, so I'd assume this is still the case.

guardsman kiffer
14-04-2009, 14:58
I just want to let everyone know who may be wondering / worried about the new codex being overpowered or unfair in any way that it is not. I have played 2 games now with the new book and they have been the best i've ever played in the 4 years i've played the game. Yes the heavy 20 got a little silly here and there but it does cost 180 points base. The orders are a bit hard to understand at first but you get used to them and yes storm troppers in valkyries do rock as much as everyone dreamed they would. But for as good as everything is now the cost balances them well. Ogryns cost more then termies for god sake. Anyways if anyone has any questions about anything in the book or how the new units work I will be happy to help.

Zedsdead
14-04-2009, 16:37
Anyways if anyone has any questions about anything in the book or how the new units work I will be happy to help.

is the master of ordinance weapon "ordinanace" or "ordinance barrage" ?

tuebor
14-04-2009, 17:52
is the master of ordinance weapon "ordinanace" or "ordinance barrage" ?

Ordnance barrage.

greenbull
14-04-2009, 18:23
I wonder if a vendetta has a transport ability at all. If a vendetta is considered a Valkyrie, then it has. But nowhere in the codex it's written specifically that vendetta's have it...

SPYDER68
14-04-2009, 18:28
I wonder if a vendetta has a transport ability at all. If a vendetta is considered a Valkyrie, then it has. But nowhere in the codex it's written specifically that vendetta's have it...

Yes Vendetta can transport just like a valk and has same transport special rules as valk..


Regarding the disembarkment, if you move 12 or less you can disembark normally, to disembark over 12" the valk hast to move Flat out.

Bloodknight
14-04-2009, 19:15
But nowhere in the codex it's written specifically that vendetta's have it...

It is. In the Vendetta's army list entry, it has Transport Capacity: x (same as a Valkyrie).

victorpofa
15-04-2009, 03:33
Apologies if this has been mentioned as it is late and I don't have time to read the rest of the thread tonight.

How many of you are considering dropping the Medic in your Command Squad because of the massive price increase for Feel No Pain on T3 models? It was standard in my list until I rewrote it using the new point values. Dropping it let me take a second platoon command squad, divide my 6 squads into two platoons instead of one, and give another order a turn in exchange for another Kill Point and the loss of Feel No Pain for 5-10 easily snuffed models.

If the Feel No Pain applied to an entire platoon, or the Commander could still give squads in the Vox Network his leadership then it might be worthwhile. What say you?