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Dervos
28-03-2009, 04:23
Long read fyi

All right after checking 11 pages of topics and checking the forum I think it is safe for me to ask my question here. I chose general because my question doesn't go with 4 of the other sections and one of them was too specific so hence my choice of general.

When I originally started out with WH40k I bought a box of guardians before the newest codex came out, it came with 16 guardians I think.

Now Eldar have had a new guardian box for a while now which includes 8 guardians but also comes with a "heavy weapon platform" and a weapons team that the newest codex stipulates that all guardians squads must have two guardians upgraded to a weapon team with a heavy weapon platform.

Now I really do not want to convert them into storm guardians; to save myself the nuisance of taking apart my completed models if I could just acquired said heavy weapon platform.

However searching through gamesworkshop's online store it would appear that this weapon platform can not be bought seperately (to the best of my knowledge and from what my searches have revealed to me) and is only available through the newest plastic guardian kit box.

So my options are to buy the new guardians boxes and spread my old guardians around the new squads so they can fit in without having to leave them behind because I dont have a heavy weapon platform, or I could sell all my guardians and just reinvest them into DA squadrons and not have to worry about the heavy weapon platform.

I am assuming of course that I can not pass off a Support Weapon Battery from the Heavy Support list as the Heavy weapon platform for my guardian squad since they have different weapons and physically are different although conversions seem to be well thought of in general as long as they are not deceitful in nature.

I appreciate any advice but I am leaning more towards selling the guardians

(P.S.)
I have not played a game of WH40K to date since I have started collecting my army, I don't have a real strong idea about what is best to do from a player's stand point, and maybe that will help you decide what advice to suggest to me.

All I have at my disposal is my small army and the newest eldar codex and the previous edition one. I shall have to get a rulebook soon.

My army currently has(if it helps)(I don't have access to it atm, its at home and I did not bring it up to my dorm)

Farseer w/ singing spear & shukrien pistol

Avatar

x16 Guardians

x8 DA

x6 Striking Scorpions

x1 Wraith Guard

x1 Warlock

x1 Wraithlord w/ wraith sword and bright lance

holmcross
28-03-2009, 04:38
Dire Avengers are definitely the way to go. I don't know very many players that run Guardians anymore these days.

I'd just go a little bit of converting to pass them off as Dire Avengers. All you'd need to do is swap the heads out.

Bladestorm + assault is nasty.

CarbonCopy
28-03-2009, 04:47
Just a suggestion or two...

First, where to get Guardian heavy weapon support platforms...
1) try your local GW shop, and ask other players if they may have some spare.
2) ebay
3) other online (non-ebay) bits vendors (there are a few that advertise here on WarSeer)
4) Post in the wanted section here on WarSeer, asking if anyone has some for trade/sale.

You are bound to find some somewhere for a reasonable price. It really is too bad that GW pulled them off the website.

As for suggestions with tactics, I'd suggest investing in at least one Falcon. That and eventually a squadron of Vipers or War Walkers (or both) to harry your opponent's flanks. Suitably equipped and utilized, you can take down your opponent's armoured units with them.

But most importantly, only TROOPS take and hold objectives now. Keep that in mind when you make your next purchase.

Tyndmyr
28-03-2009, 05:50
Id definitely second the ebay suggestion. You can often find oddball bits there that don't really make a valid choice by themselves. Keep an eye out for the platforms, and with a bit of luck, you should be able to get em cheap.

Torga_DW
28-03-2009, 05:52
http://www.thewarstore.com/EldarHeavyWeaponPlatformBits.html

I hope this is of use.

fracas
28-03-2009, 05:59
buy 2 new guardian box set. add your old guardians to the new ones and make two large units with wpn platforms.

Starchild
28-03-2009, 06:02
Guardians are useful in smaller games (1500 pts. or under.) The other options for troops can be quite expensive. The main advantage of Guardians is that you can use large units of them to babysit objectives.

Remember that no Eldar unit should operate in isolation. Use the other units in the army list to cover the Guardians weaknesses. A nearby Wraithlord helps the Guardians with vehicles and monstrous creatures.

If you take a Warlock, use Conceal with a Farseer casting Fortune on the unit; this makes the Guardians very resilient. An attached Autarch is useful to keep the Guardians from running away; his Ld10 and close combat prowess also give the Guardians an edge in assaults.

ehlijen
28-03-2009, 07:12
You could always convert HW platforms yourself. I'm not sure how to best do that though.

In general guardians offer one thing that the eldar army otherwise misses: Scoring units that can be geared against a broad selection of threats. They will never be as good against any target as their specialist units, but can score and are cheaper, so if you're not sure what specialist unit to take, taking guardians instead isn't a bad idea, it might not be the best, but it's never the worst.

As for warlock powers, given that cover is much more common and their going to sit back with heavy weapons (meaning plenty of stuff will be inbetween) I'd recommend against conceal unless you plan to actively use them as a meatshield. Take embolden (they are the lowest ld unit in the list) or enhance (the ws boost is a very good defensive bonus against most attackers) instead if you take any power at all.

Dervos
28-03-2009, 15:01
Dire Avengers are definitely the way to go. I don't know very many players that run Guardians anymore these days.

I'd just go a little bit of converting to pass them off as Dire Avengers. All you'd need to do is swap the heads out.

Bladestorm + assault is nasty.

Hmm I suppose then all I'd need to do is find a bunch of extra heads from someone/


Just a suggestion or two...

First, where to get Guardian heavy weapon support platforms...
1) try your local GW shop, and ask other players if they may have some spare.
2) ebay
3) other online (non-ebay) bits vendors (there are a few that advertise here on WarSeer)
4) Post in the wanted section here on WarSeer, asking if anyone has some for trade/sale.

You are bound to find some somewhere for a reasonable price. It really is too bad that GW pulled them off the website.

As for suggestions with tactics, I'd suggest investing in at least one Falcon. That and eventually a squadron of Vipers or War Walkers (or both) to harry your opponent's flanks. Suitably equipped and utilized, you can take down your opponent's armoured units with them.

But most importantly, only TROOPS take and hold objectives now. Keep that in mind when you make your next purchase.


Id definitely second the ebay suggestion. You can often find oddball bits there that don't really make a valid choice by themselves. Keep an eye out for the platforms, and with a bit of luck, you should be able to get em cheap.

I like both the warwalkers and vypers a lot so I may eventually end up with a squad of each. I will definitely take a look at ebay and the other site's stores. I really really love wraithlords but falcons are pretty good from what I have heard.


http://www.thewarstore.com/EldarHeavyWeaponPlatformBits.html

I hope this is of use.

They seem to be out of stock at the moment but thank you for the url, I will keep it handy.


buy 2 new guardian box set. add your old guardians to the new ones and make two large units with wpn platforms.

16 atm then + another 20

x2 18 squads with two heavy weapon platforms, nice big squads and I can easily make them smaller if I want to.


Guardians are useful in smaller games (1500 pts. or under.) The other options for troops can be quite expensive. The main advantage of Guardians is that you can use large units of them to babysit objectives.

Remember that no Eldar unit should operate in isolation. Use the other units in the army list to cover the Guardians weaknesses. A nearby Wraithlord helps the Guardians with vehicles and monstrous creatures.

If you take a Warlock, use Conceal with a Farseer casting Fortune on the unit; this makes the Guardians very resilient. An attached Autarch is useful to keep the Guardians from running away; his Ld10 and close combat prowess also give the Guardians an edge in assaults.



You could always convert HW platforms yourself. I'm not sure how to best do that though.

In general guardians offer one thing that the eldar army otherwise misses: Scoring units that can be geared against a broad selection of threats. They will never be as good against any target as their specialist units, but can score and are cheaper, so if you're not sure what specialist unit to take, taking guardians instead isn't a bad idea, it might not be the best, but it's never the worst.

As for warlock powers, given that cover is much more common and their going to sit back with heavy weapons (meaning plenty of stuff will be inbetween) I'd recommend against conceal unless you plan to actively use them as a meatshield. Take embolden (they are the lowest ld unit in the list) or enhance (the ws boost is a very good defensive bonus against most attackers) instead if you take any power at all.

I really like how Warlocks contribute some great effects to infantry squads so I will get a couple more to fit into more troops choices.

I didn't think you could attach a autarch since they have the independent character rule?


Thank you everyone for your feedback, I think I will buy two more guardian boxes and the rest of the troops I buy will be DA and one contingent of wraithguard for use in larger games.

Emperor's Grace
28-03-2009, 16:14
Ummm... wanted section?

I look there regularly and just happen to have old metal HWs from when they were sold separately that I'd love to sell.

PM me with how many and what weapon sort you'd like and I'll see what I can do pricewise.

The_Outsider
28-03-2009, 16:25
I'll wager that you'll have spare weapons from kits like wraithlord/falcon/etc

Get your weapon of choice, one base that terminators and the like sit on, a standard base to be the platform part of the heavy weapon, glue the weapon to that (hey, I never said this would be perfect) and then jsut use some plasticard or soemthing to make up the shield part and you're done.

It won't be as good as the proper platform but it can be done for nothing.

Eulenspiegel
28-03-2009, 16:40
I didn't think you could attach a autarch since they have the independent character rule?

Quite amusing misunderstanding :)

You said you didnīt own a Rulebook yet, so it wonīt hurt to tell you that the IC rule is what allows him to attach to other units.

Dervos
29-03-2009, 01:05
Ummm... wanted section?

I look there regularly and just happen to have old metal HWs from when they were sold separately that I'd love to sell.

PM me with how many and what weapon sort you'd like and I'll see what I can do pricewise.

Well I was not 100% sure what I actually wanted to do which is why I went with general instead of the wanted section which would have been more narrow.


I'll wager that you'll have spare weapons from kits like wraithlord/falcon/etc

Get your weapon of choice, one base that terminators and the like sit on, a standard base to be the platform part of the heavy weapon, glue the weapon to that (hey, I never said this would be perfect) and then jsut use some plasticard or soemthing to make up the shield part and you're done.

It won't be as good as the proper platform but it can be done for nothing.
heh this sounds kinda funny I might do it just to see how it turns out, though I'd have to wonder if anyone would question the legality of it.


Quite amusing misunderstanding :)

You said you didnīt own a Rulebook yet, so it wonīt hurt to tell you that the IC rule is what allows him to attach to other units.

O ><; I feel silly now, thank you for that clarification.


Thank you again everyone for your feedback

The_Outsider
29-03-2009, 08:47
heh this sounds kinda funny I might do it just to see how it turns out, though I'd have to wonder if anyone would question the legality of it.


Unless i'm mistaken the current plastic heavy weapon platform comes on a terminator sized base, so there would be nothing wrong with it.

ehlijen
29-03-2009, 11:25
The weapon itself does not actually need a base (as it cannot ever be attacked in any way shape or form). As long as the two desginated gunners are easy to spot and on standard guardian bases your heavy weapon team is legal as far as bases go.

Battle-Brother Wags
29-03-2009, 11:37
The weapon itself does not actually need a base (as it cannot ever be attacked in any way shape or form). As long as the two desginated gunners are easy to spot and on standard guardian bases your heavy weapon team is legal as far as bases go.


This is how I do it as well. The rules specifically state that the heavy weapon model itself is *ignored* in all game situations. You draw LOS to and from one of the guardians manning the weapon. The weapon is not even considered to be there in CC. It's base cannot be used to measure range. The entry even says something to the effect of "you should actually assume that one of the firer's is actually carrying it" or something lke that.

So what did I do?

I took a scatter laser from a vehicle sprue and with a litle conversion, I have a female guardian with a hip-slung scatter laser! It's not perfect, but everyone in my gaming group says it looks pretty bad-@ss.

Eulenspiegel
29-03-2009, 12:23
O ><; I feel silly now,

Donīt. How should you know?

Dervos
31-03-2009, 22:21
Unless i'm mistaken the current plastic heavy weapon platform comes on a terminator sized base, so there would be nothing wrong with it.

I didn't mean to point out one particular part of it as being odd, the whole thing just sounded odd to me because I have never converted or built something from scratch for something like this.


The weapon itself does not actually need a base (as it cannot ever be attacked in any way shape or form). As long as the two desginated gunners are easy to spot and on standard guardian bases your heavy weapon team is legal as far as bases go.


This is how I do it as well. The rules specifically state that the heavy weapon model itself is *ignored* in all game situations. You draw LOS to and from one of the guardians manning the weapon. The weapon is not even considered to be there in CC. It's base cannot be used to measure range. The entry even says something to the effect of "you should actually assume that one of the firer's is actually carrying it" or something lke that.

So what did I do?

I took a scatter laser from a vehicle sprue and with a litle conversion, I have a female guardian with a hip-slung scatter laser! It's not perfect, but everyone in my gaming group says it looks pretty bad-@ss.

Ah pretty plain and simple, I think all my doubts are gone now, and that hip slung scatter laser is hilarious xD but pretty neat.


Donīt. How should you know?

Your right I wouldn't, it was just that sterotypical new person "o shucks" kinda thing I guess. :D

Thank you everyone I think I have everything I need now to make my decision.

Sypher21
31-03-2009, 22:55
Converting Guardians into Dire Avengers isn't as simple as taking a guardian torso and replacing the erotic round and smooth head with a curved helmet suffering from a totally excessive amount of horsehair syndrome. The weapon they use is longer, with quite a few large modifications compared to the shuriken catapult.

Unless you have plenty of spare parts and greenstuff or just flat out don't care, go for it. However being a personal fan of guardians I find that you can't just go wrong with them, as they provide the large amount of able bodies capable of holding objectives, bodies which eldar lack even worse than space marines. Plus I find the weapon platforms just too sexy to pass up.

If you have money to spare, I'd say buy a box of guardians, and get another heavy weapon platform off ebay or a bits site, or hell, even ask your local GW or the regulars, I'm sure one or another has an extra one they'd be willing to part for bits or cash.

borithan
31-03-2009, 23:34
The Dire Avengers kit they made before thr current plastic ones but after the metal ones was basically a conversion set for the Guardians, providing different heads and at least some of the Exarch weapon options (as far as I am aware). It is only in the current codex and models that the Dire Avenger shuriken catapult is any different from the standard guardian one. Convert them and paint them so they are obviously Dire Avengers and I couldn't personally see any problem wi8th using them.

I think the plastic heavy weapon kit was available seperately for a very short period after it was created, but that was when there was still the 16 man box of Guardians, so it was to combine with them.

I like the sound of a properly modelled guardian holding the weapon as well though... Everyone used to have man carried heavy weapons, including the eldar. I think it was a rather sappy looking lascannon in their case though.

kikkoman
01-04-2009, 01:50
Convert a guardian or two into heavy weapons crew, manually carrying the weapon. Get one of the reaper exarch weapons for a smaller sized one that won't look as awkward.

give his backpack the camera widget and tall backfin thingy.

Avenger catapults are goofy looking compared to the guardian ones, too long and thin with an awkward scope stuck on the top. The catapult the guardians use is the original design with perfect proportions, the Avenger one is just an afterthought that came about years later. I wouldn't bother converting them.



If you want to use them as Avengers, well they don't have to be Avengers necessarily. Maybe they're craftworld corsairs?
Just give them things like bandanas on the helmets. If you know any High Elf players, their plastic kits come with all kinds of icons, gems, feathers to stick on helmets. As long as the heads look different they're distinguishable as not just guardians.