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snikch13
14-12-2005, 03:36
using all current lists what army do you believe needs the most updating and/or fixing? keep in mind this does not have to be the weakest, it could be the most horridly broken, or even something you think should be done differently for useability purposes.

i got a couple (for many reasons), but the first thing i would go for is skaven. i have played them for quite some years now, and i think the list is mostly a supremely solid list. but i would however like to seea few minor changes in their redo. most notably, i believe they need to have their "life is cheap" rule toned way down or cut out all together. this rule alone makes the skaven among the best shooters in the game. simply because they can shoot in every turn of the game, at any possible target. this extended shooting ability really goes a long way towards removing the combat phase as notable when the skaven are on the board. i especially think this would go a long way towards removing the grief so many players have when facing a skaven SAD army.

i personally dont use the rule, except for shooting into slaves. i accepted the house rule and stick to it in non-house games. i find it goes a long way towards validating my victories as skill rather than army.

Keller
14-12-2005, 04:05
I would like to see High Elves redone. I don't play them, but they are the army of choice for my most-regular opponent. I don't have a big problem with how they stand now, or find them to be extremely weak, but they could use with some points adjustments to say the least. Plus, that would be about the only way for him to have a new army, as he doesn't buy much these days.

From a personal standpoint, I would like to see the Empire redone. My first army, and still my preffered one. I love the way they play, but they are growing a bit boring after so many games. New units, and especially magic items, would be great. Special rules for variant lists for the differant provinces would be awesome too. I still want some form of combat-oriented skimishers, preferably scouts! My Huntsmen are awesome, but some new troops with more of a combat-drive deploying forward would be great. Maybe scouts with throwing knives and AHWs; similar to DoW duelists but without the 'obligatory' pistols. Go militia units!

Trunks
14-12-2005, 04:08
I'm not a fan of Skaven being a horde army that negates one of the huge weaknesses of hordes, Leadership.

Skaven should be up there as far as being toned down is concerned.

Vampire Counts should be up there for adding variety (rather dull overall when it comes to adding real character to your army) and new models (plastic ghouls, new graveguard and black knights, that's all I want).

High Elves should be up there for re-evaluation of playstyle due to cost inneffective infantry choices.

shadowprince
14-12-2005, 04:17
High elfs for some point and rules redone, would like to see some more powerful swordmaster personally (understand this would increas points I am ok with this.)

Then Skaven as they are way to powerful. They can have better leadership outnumber, outshoot, and outmagic, all at the ame time. This is just wrong.

Then Dark elfs, as they should be redone as high elfs are.

Dogs of war then chaos dwarfs, they need a book



Empire and ORcs should be last they need a redo. Their models and rules are great pretty much every unit can be used.

snikch13
14-12-2005, 04:26
Vampire Counts should be up there for adding variety (rather dull overall when it comes to adding real character to your army) and new models (plastic ghouls, new graveguard and black knights, that's all I want).


couldnt agree more, i dont think they are bad, in fact i think they are a superb army; they are just a little bland in the selection department. perhaps some implementation of some units from the "army of the cairns" list would be fun.

Keller
14-12-2005, 04:56
couldnt agree more, i dont think they are bad, in fact i think they are a superb army; they are just a little bland in the selection department. perhaps some implementation of some units from the "army of the cairns" list would be fun.

Chalk one more for VC needing redone. I've decided not to sell mine off just because I wanna see what happens in the next edition to them. I like the army now, but they are way too easy to play, and get boring FAST.

So, having thought about it a bit more:

High Elves
Empire - especially new spearmen and handgunner models, worst plastics ever.
Dogs of War - always liked using my Empire as them, and the occassional Duelist unit or RoR in my other armies. I'd like to see them get some attention.
Vampire Counts - as I said, I like the army, especially the theme and feel, but it loses much of its appeal when on the table. More choices, less reliable, autobreak makes things way too easy when you can muster as many troops as these guys can.
skaven - I don't have much experience with em, but lots complain of them, so why not. It worked for the DE.
lizardmen - cause I hate hordes of M6 skinks; limit them some.
chaos - more distinctions between factions and races

gorenut
14-12-2005, 11:20
I definitely like to see a remake of Vampire Counts.

A. Because they have one of the most outdated looking model range (if you don't convert)

B. I would like to see the whole Bloodline system more refined to add more variety.

Elannion
14-12-2005, 11:49
hrm vampire counts again i think really need abit of help.
Some plastics generally need redoing such as empire and bretonnians (darn the attatched torso) though i dont think that either of them need alot of updating rules wise.
High elves and Dark elves for obvious reasons (more variety in high elves by making the options better and just abit of touching up in Dark elves)
Other than the high elves and dark elves though i think they need to do dogs of war and chaos dwarf armys before rereleasing anything else.

Venkh
14-12-2005, 13:38
Vampires - Old models and lack of variety. The lore needs a slight nerf as well

Skaven - Need nerfing, Shooting at own troops, weapons teams, Jezzails and WLC rules need toning down.

High Elves - Probably the most unbalanced list, half great, half toilet. Guess which half normally ends up on the table.

Of these the Vamps are the only ones likely to actually get done due to their rather dated models.

Pokpoko
14-12-2005, 14:52
lizardmen - cause I hate hordes of M6 skinks; limit them some.
i can't agree. i mean, yes,i'd like to see the end of skink-hammer 40k too, but the problem is not that they are too good.the problem is that saurus are so much worse when looking at the whole army. as such,they are as good infantry as any other,and there is nothing wrong with them at the first sight.but when you build the army, you want/need all those special/rare units.and they eat up points incerdibly fast.so,wheny you take mandatory 3 sallies, 2x4 terradons and kroxigor+characters, the points you have are extremly limited-so,you take the SkinkS, which are both cheap,and have great value on battlefiled-they can take out enemy warmachines,lone characters and even big critters with massed poisonous fire.and you get two for the point cost of one saurus.
so,in my opinion, downgrading the skinks won't stop their proliferation, it's making the saurus viable choice again that will stop the skinkswarms(especially since they won't benefit from HW+SH combo in 7ed anymre oviously).

StugMeister
14-12-2005, 15:09
I'd have to say HighElves. They're my main army in Fantasy at the mo and I'd have to agree with everyone's opinions posted on this thread so far.

Morph
14-12-2005, 15:47
High Elves - fairly dull at the moment, with only a small selection of units that are actually good. Plus getting rid of Intriuge at Court will help.

Skaven - The shooting and Ld need toning down, the horde aspect increased.

The trouble is, redoing an army book rarely means toning down any aspect (look at the new Dwarfs, they don't get worse in any way). More likely other army books would be re-done to make them able to take on Skaven shooting. It'll be power creep madness.

Chaos - Mostly for the army selection process. I hate the way mortal armies get their chariots and chosen (especially chosen knights) as core. It seems to miss the points of the whole C/S/R system.

god octo
14-12-2005, 17:11
I agree with everyone, but i think that High elves should be redone. Many units suck for their points cost and the rules for other units are terrible. As, for intrigue at court, nice idea but me and my friend (who actually plays HE) just ingnore it.

Ophidicus
14-12-2005, 18:25
Another vote for Vampires, their armies don't have anywhere near enough variety, and some (but by no means all) of the models are absolutely dire. Especially the Carsteins, as the archetype, they deserve much better. More dignified, less anorexic beaver. I also think the armies should reflect the bloodline, that'd give the army some depth. Different troops, more weapon options, more excuses to take cool but ATM unnecessary stuff like Wraiths and Wight Lords, Banshees as 2 per Rare, that sort of thing.

Better Carstein Vampires top of the list.

gondarion
14-12-2005, 18:49
Armies in greatest need in regard to rules:

1. High elves (even their good stuff isn't exactly great, and the rest is awful; They need a thorough reimaging).
2. Dark elves (functional, but still bland and underpowered, in my opinion)
3. Skaven (the list is characterful, but definitely needs selective toning down)
4. Lizardmen (up oldblood cost, re-do salamanders and tone down the skinks)
5. Brettonians (increase cost accross the board, especially pegasi knights)

Armies in greates need in regard to models

1. Vampire counts (I really like the wights, but everything else really sucks, the vampire models are perhaps the worst in the game)
2. Orcs+goblins (They're being redone, and I really hope they become less silly, particularly the basic orcs)
3. Empire (Just a really drab model line, needs rescuscitation)
4. High elves (like the orcs, models are too campy, and the swordmasters are among the most static, boring models in the game. All the units should be re-done, except for the chariots, dragon princes and phoenix guard).
5. Hordes of Chaos (the newer chaos warriors are a vast improvement, but the marauders are still terrible, and the knights look cramped. The daemons are too OTT as well, in my opinion)

TK421
14-12-2005, 19:07
High Elves: Need a general rework just to make all units viable choices.
Dark Elves: Same as High Elves but not quite as much
Vampire Counts: They're a little dull right now as most of the armies I've seen are pretty similar, some new models would be nice as well.
Skaven: Toned down quite a bit, a bit of a focus away from the SAD would be a good idea.

zak
14-12-2005, 22:10
I think that I have to go along with the general consensus and say that HE are in dire need of an update. There models are not bad, but they do need re-doing as they are very one dimensional due to high point cost of infantry.
I don't think the VC rules wise need changing, but the models certainly do as they are some of the poorest in the whole range. Saying that the bloodlines do need a tweak, but it's not a priority.
I fail to see why Orcs+Goblins are being re done so early as I think they are one of the more balanced army and have a good selection of good models to choose from.

gondarion
14-12-2005, 23:16
I disagree, I think the 6th edition model line is far inferior to the 4th edition line, and they can do better than both.

Vandur Last
15-12-2005, 05:11
I think all this feeling that VC are dull/unvaried stems from the fact that theyve chopped the "Undead" into seperate books. Bear in mind that this is the first version of a VC standalone army and with subsequent incarnations its bound to be fleshed out and become more interesting.

Skaven need to be looked at. As a previous poster said: higher LD + horde + magic + great shooting = broken.

PS: Did someone actually imply that Saurus wer not a viable infantry choice?? *boggle*

Slappy
15-12-2005, 05:25
i personally dont use the rule, except for shooting into slaves.

LOL. This is what makes it such crap! The fact you can tie up one of my units with a giant mess of 2 point slaves then shoot the hell out of both units. Costing you nothing and costing me alot.


My Huntsmen are awesome

Haha what? Huntsmen are one of the WORST units in the game. They are a joke man.

gondarion
15-12-2005, 05:31
Huntsmen aren't crap. They're scouts, and they do everythin important more expensive scouts do for less points. I'd certainly rather have huntsmen than shadow warriors.

Slappy
15-12-2005, 05:53
Well duh.

I'd rather have Gnoblar Trappers than Shadow Warriors.

RGB
15-12-2005, 06:03
Haha what? Huntsmen are one of the WORST units in the game. They are a joke man.

Huntsmen are 50 pts well spent on making sure your cannon battery gets to shoot twice. That is enough.

Cheers.

For me at least: ruleswise - HE; Scaven; LM; Empire - cause I play it and we have the second most boring army book out there (after Beasts). Some new stuff and for the love of Sigmar re-do the boring magic item list.

Model-wise - well...Empire would be a good place to start, then VC.

samael
15-12-2005, 06:43
I can't believe that no one has mentioned Chaos Dwarfs yet, my beloved evil stunties deserve an update before anyone else.

It's way past overdue. :mad: :cries:

Slappy
15-12-2005, 07:21
Yea, but their current list is rock solid.

Iron Clad MacFearson
15-12-2005, 07:45
Its limited and clumsy rules wise. If I have to hear people disagree(fight) about how to work out a stand and shoot for blunderbusses one more time I'm like likely to sacrifice myself to Hashut. There is so much potential for CD. Just picture the seen from LOTR where Isenguard is stripping the land clear to fuel their dark industry. I know I cant paint the mental picture as well as I'd like to, but in the hands of the right people(and there are a few of these at GW) it seems very sinister to me.
I wish I could vow to buy no more minis till CD , but I know that would be a lie.

Keller
15-12-2005, 15:05
Haha what? Huntsmen are one of the WORST units in the game. They are a joke man.

You obviously gravely underestimate the power of scouts. Huntsmen clock in at a mere 10 points/model, come with better bows than normal archers, and can deploy forward to really mess up the enemy. Not only can they march block well, their 30" long bows allow them to fire at targets you would take a while to get to and destroy in CC, such as warmachines. Deploy them in some trees and the enemy will rarely be able to shoot them out; unless you can't keep their magic in check or they bring some non-bs weaponry to bear. I use them in nearly every game, and they always prove problematic for my opponent. I just wish I could have more than one unit of them under the standard list.

Huntsmen are much better than Gnoblar Trappers. I'd gladly pay an extra 4 points/model to have a unit that I can always use, and that can acutally make use of their shooting weapons. My damned gnoblars always spend half the game bickering with each other. Their Sharp Stuff is good for little more than a stand & fire, since throwing weapons are too short ranged. Not worthless if you move them right, but I find it best to just use them as march blockers and leave the damage to the Ogres when they show up.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-12-2005, 15:14
Dark Elf could do with some nice Command models. We have no Highborn or Noble models! Nor do we have much in the way of Sorceress. One on foot, and a ***** Cold One Rider!

zak
15-12-2005, 18:34
Quote:

I disagree, I think the 6th edition model line is far inferior to the 4th edition line, and they can do better than both.

I agree that they could do better, but 4th Edition Orcs were simply awful. The Savage Orcs were OK but the rest were just wrong! (IMHO).

I totally agree with the Mad Doc. GW have made a great range of figures for the DE (possibly the best in the WH range). And thentotally forgot to make any Nobles or Highborns:wtf: Come on GW. Dop the decent thing and put my old ugly mini's in to retirement.

WarriorOfJustice
15-12-2005, 18:57
I think it is funny that no one has mentioned orcs (except for one person), and according to a lot of rumours they are slated as being next. Maybe GW should take a better note of what players want.....

gorenut
15-12-2005, 21:16
I think it is funny that no one has mentioned orcs (except for one person), and according to a lot of rumours they are slated as being next. Maybe GW should take a better note of what players want.....


They do take note.. and the people want.... SPACE MARINES!!!

WarriorOfJustice
15-12-2005, 21:24
haha I forgot all about about the Smurfs!! and dont forgot, all of us really want LoTR too.... I can't wait until the Shire football team models come out:)

gorenut
15-12-2005, 21:26
haha I forgot all about about the Smurfs!! and dont forgot, all of us really want LoTR too.... I can't wait until the Shire football team models come out:)


SWEET!! That definitely has to go up to News and Rumors.

Next we need The Fellowship in Space.

Ok.. I'll stop getting off-topic now.. couldn't help it.