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jeroen84
03-05-2005, 22:15
With 4th edition, battlesuits have become really fragily compared to 3rd edition. That's why you almost always see people use Mechanised Tau these days.

Anyway, here are some proposed hotfixes I thought of:

1)
Attached Drone Units
If drones are attached to an unit, drones always count as the minority for Toughness and Armour Save purposes. However, when applying a wounding hit to the majority armour type at point 3 of the Mixed Armour rules, you can opt to apply the wounding hit to a drone instead.
Note that points 5 of the Mixed Armour rules on p.76 of the Rulebook is still in effect.

2)
All Shas'vre's receive a +1 BS on their profile for the same point cost. (So it would be 10 points for +1WS, +1BS and +1I, of which WS and I are not used 90% of the time in the game.)

3)
Broadsides gain the Slow And Purposeful special ability.(Rulebook, p.75) Im still thinking if that would warrant a point increase or not.

4)
modified Inspiring Presense, add this line before "Any Tau units joined..":
Any Morale check made by a Tau unit within 12" of the Ethereal is only ever being modified by the factor that the unit is below 50% of its starting strength.

With point 1, Crisis and Broadside Suits will have some sort of protection again. And with point 2 and 3, they'll be slightly more effective.
Point 3 is because of the overpowering use of the Fear of Darkness special power with the new SM codex. And instead of giving the Tau an anti-psyker ability, I thought it would be more fitting that Tau would be less inclined to fall back if they were close to the Ethereal that they have to protect.

These things are also to make non-mechanised lists more viable again. Since with 4th edition, battlesuits have become really fragile.

What do you think?

Jeroen

jeroen84
03-05-2005, 23:28
Thanks for moving me. I didnt notice this forum before. And we used to discuss things like this on the 40k general discussion board on the old Portent, so yeah. ^^;;

Anyone has some more feedback of things that have to be fixed for the 4th edition for Tau?

Hideous Loon
04-05-2005, 08:15
No, can't think of anything more. Maybe, to decrease the frequency of mech. Tau, increase the points cost of Tanks. A simple, but perhaps a bit blunt solution.

Colonial Rifle
04-05-2005, 10:31
Why should tanks go up in points? They are not exactly cheap at the moment! I don't think Tau players be penalized for having to use the more viable style of play left to them, a Mech Tau list is still hard to play with and is hardly 'over-powered'. It's not exactly our fault that Static Tau have been shafted by the idiotic drone ruling.

Jeroen84: I second your ideas, but I would have all Tau elites on BS4 (yep, even Stealths). At the moment, they are really sub-par.

jeroen84
04-05-2005, 20:29
I dont think increasing tank point cost is a good thing to do either. hideous_loon, just tell me what you think of my ideas. ;D

About BS4 for all Tau battlesuits.. I strongly oppose that, and many others do as well. I think they would get seriously overpowered with that many BS4's on the board. ESPECIALLY stealth suits. Those are already worth their points easily.

I advise/ask people to test play these 4 rules against the new Space Marines and Nids and tell us their experiences.

wldside
04-05-2005, 21:11
Overall I like what you've posted. #1 seems like it would make the attached drones more like what they should be. As for #2, personally I think anyone in a suit (crisis, stealth or broad) should get the +1 BS, these are supposed to be veterans who have earned the right to use that equipment and it's hard for me to imagine that they wouldn't be at least a slightly better shot than the average grunt even before you factor in the enhanced sensors and other gear the suits have. #3 seems like it would make sense but I'd like to see it in action before I make a final decision. And I have no experience with etherials so I won't comment on #4.

Aquila
05-05-2005, 04:15
Point 1 is perfect. That would bring the new rules perfectly in line with the original rules for drones. As it is, they're completely useless, more of a hindrance.

Point 2 is genius. Can't believe I've never thought of that before. The Shas'Vre upgrade is another thing thats completely useless at the moment. Extra WS and I for a Tau? Why would he even have that in the first place? If I were a Tau commander, I would DEMOTE veterans who tried to get into close combat!

Point 3, I'm a little ambivalent about. Broadsides seem to be pretty damn effective already. Fix the drone rules and I'll be happy, they won't need any added effectiveness.

Point 4: Instead, you could say that units within 12" can test on his leadership. Would make it a little simpler, and show that he's a little more inspiring than some wussy Imperial Guard flag.

jeroen84
05-05-2005, 12:26
Point 3, I'm a little ambivalent about. Broadsides seem to be pretty damn effective already. Fix the drone rules and I'll be happy, they won't need any added effectiveness.

Hmm.. Agreed. This shouldnt be part of a "hotfix", but could be a part of a revised/new tau codex.



Point 4: Instead, you could say that units within 12" can test on his leadership. Would make it a little simpler, and show that he's a little more inspiring than some wussy Imperial Guard flag.
Duh. Thanks =p The result for FoD would be the same, and with thinking of new rules it's always important that you follow the KISS rule(Keep It Stupid Simple). I did that with the drone rules. I dont see why I didnt look at this from the side you pointed out. :D

TaintedSpam
05-05-2005, 21:59
Here's what I had come up with so far... Actually in a notepad document on my desktop. Very similar to what I've read so far...

reasonable requests:

1. Kroothounds and Oxen are squad upgrades and do not take a FoC slot
2. Shas'vre are BS4
3. allow twin flamers on crisis suits. --> Heavy Flamer
4. Drones always count as majority armor!

requests for debate:

1. allow all crisis suits access to targeting array as hardpoint option
2. remove devilfish requirement from pathfinders (they then count as TROOPS)
3. attached drones do not count as casualties for morale checks.
4. Allow all carbine fw teams.

ideas that need work:

1. As they are, carbines need work
2. Farsight Enclave needs work.
3. Firewarrior access to railrifes and flamers yea or nea?
4. Drones. Very, VERY fragile. LD8? Command Drone?

jeroen84
05-05-2005, 22:42
1. Kroothounds and Oxen are squad upgrades and do not take a FoC slot
Agreed. I had already thought of this, I just wanted to post my "main quick fixes" before thinking of a revised tau codex.

2. Shas'vre are BS4
Same as my thoughts.

3. allow twin flamers on crisis suits. --> Heavy Flamer
I have mixed feelings about flamers for Tau. Dunno.

4. Drones always count as majority armor!
That wouldnt work, my short rule works much better because if you are shot at by a bunch of bolters you can just take saves with the battlesuits save.


1. allow all crisis suits access to targeting array as hardpoint option
Against. Tau would become very overpowering with their weapons and BS4. Plus.. A BS6 commander? BS5 as a squad leader?

2. remove devilfish requirement from pathfinders (they then count as TROOPS)
I disagree. I find that it keeps pathfinders unique and it suits them. I do think their devilfish should be a little more special though.

3. attached drones do not count as casualties for morale checks.
Ive posted these ideas on multiple forums. When talking about morale issues and regrouping, thought up this:

"Drone's are not counted when determining if a unit is below 50% of its original strength for Regrouping conditions. However, they are counted for Morale test purposes."

This is logical, as it makes an unit run if their ablative armor is shot away. But they wouldnt be below 50% and unable to regroup as it's now. (Right now, if you take 2 crisis suits with 4 attached drones and the drones are destroyed, the unit counts as below 50% and cannot regroup.)

4. Allow all carbine fw teams.
Agreed. Although their effectiveness with the Rapid Fire rules is questionable.


1. As they are, carbines need work
Agreed. The question is just how without making them too powerful.

2. Farsight Enclave needs work.
My friends ML Kurze and Hoshi No Koe are working and playtesting a new Farsight list. We've been talking about that since the Old Portent. It's now in the dysartes.com forums though.

3. Firewarrior access to railrifes and flamers yea or nea?
Again, I dont think flamers have the right feeling to tau. Burst cannons and railrifles would be okay I guess. However, the fact that Tau dont have special weapons in their squads make them unique.

4. Drones. Very, VERY fragile. LD8? Command Drone?
I agree that their leadership should be increased to 8. However, the fact that you need at least 4 drones to form a self sufficient network is very fluffy so I dont think they need a command drone/sergeant.

TaintedSpam
06-05-2005, 00:39
I was posting that as I was leaving work, so I didn't take the time to edit it properly.

Crisis Upgrades:

My take on flamers is, there's precedent for it in other lists... If people want to take flamers, than let them and give'em a heavy flamer option if they want. I use a suit with a flamer and TL-missile pods from time to time, and it's quite clear when the flamer is a better shot than the Missile Pod.

There is no BS6. The array It would cap at BS5.

- remember, every hard point option takes up a weapon slot. That's more points on less, but better shots. one less weapon and gives suits even more customization options. I think it balances out.

Carbines:

having an 18 inch range and being able to shoot and assault (yes, assault) are tactically valuable options. I would love to field a whole squad of Carbine armed firewarriors. Hell, on the odd pin, you can blast them again next turn and STILL assault. ;)

Heavy Weapons in FW Squads.

I'm on the fence with this. It does make them special, however, the concept in third edition was the crisis suits providing fire support to the squad it was being screened by. Now any crisis suit left out on in the table has a big HIT ME sign on it. Terrain is no guarantee, and when it is, you're tied to it. Flamers in squads are... a stretch, but are rail rifles an infantry weapon or not? Let the Shas'Ui upgrade to one.

Drones:

I wrote that notepad note some time ago and forgot about it. I'm now leaning towards leaving the drones at LD7 (target selection, etc) but make them autopass all morale checks as long as they have X models on the table. It just makes sense. I don't think they should be BOO!!ed of the table either.

Aurelien
06-05-2005, 05:25
That wouldnt work, my short rule works much better because if you are shot at by a bunch of bolters you can just take saves with the battlesuits save.

I disagree. Your way confused me, and this is much easier. Also, your way is more of a pure rules benefit, whereas I see the drones being programed to 'take the bullet' be it a bolter or lascannon shot. They arent going to step aside just because its a crappy weapon firing at the crisis suits.

xerxeshavelock
06-05-2005, 10:30
Iíve been thinking about it a bit recently, and Iím starting to think having the normal rules apply to Drones is not a bad idea. In my opinion the concept of a Gun Drone purposely making itself easier to shoot seems a bit daft to me. Iíd rather they follow the regular rules and the Pulse Carbine be improved to make them more worth taking.

Shield Drones are another matter. I wouldnít change the target rules, but maybe say that the whole squad gains an Inv save. That way you could have 2 shield drones with a squad of suits and as long as one was alive any casualties would receive an Inv save. The save could be managed in several ways:

4+ fixed for whole squad
3+ fixed for whole squad (to really make them worth taking)
Normal save becomes inv (ie if the hit was on a Suit it would be 3+ or 2+, on a Drone or Fire Warrior 4+)
Save based on the amount of Shield Drones (ie1 Drone=5+, 2 Drones=4+ etc)

I would also like the Seeker Missile become a launcher at 20 points, can launch 1 missile per turn (to stop Pathfinders becoming too sick)

Iíd like some kind of Teleport Homer for D/S suits, maybe Flamers would become more popular.

As to the BS4 thing, just to add my viewpoint. A suit pilot is like a Helicopter Gunship Pilot, their experience is based on doing several things at once, ie shooting twice, picking landing sites, rather than firing a single shot more accurately. Itís just a different approach. Would you prefer they were better shots but didnít have the jump back move? I wouldnít!
As to their effectiveness, my 10 Crisis army came 6th at the UK GT this year and 8th last year so they do work, itís just hard. If I can do it I'm sure you can too! :)

Captain Marius
09-05-2005, 11:47
Some of these ideas sound like they would be appropriate to a revised Tau list. I like the idea of Slow and Purposeful for Broadsides and BS4 for Shas'vre. That would tip the balance just a little bit without over-powering the unit. The Crisis teams are designed so that twin-linking weapons pretty much compensates for BS3, but in practice the suits are still a little below par.

With drones, I think they should make the distinction between gun and shield types clearer. Shield types would be dedicated to taking incoming fire; perhaps they should be T4 to avoid the problem of majority toughness making suits even easier to kill? The 4+ Inv save for the whole squad is a good one, but doesn't feel exactly right within the context of the majority and casualty removal rules.

Gun drones on the other hand should offer little extra benefit to defence; their fire support role is what they are designed for. I personally think they should be upgradeable with markerlights, burst cannon, flamers et al - it would not be particularly amazing at BS2 (maybe a fire warrior could be equipped with a drone controller and make the shot BS3?), but would allow for a bit more variation. The argument that limited options makes a unit characterful is a bit weak; the fire warrior and necron squads are all the same and thus boring.

Drone squadrons could then include Shield Drones and Special Weapon Drones to up their flexibility and make them a more interesting choice.

I definitely agree with sticking hounds and ox in the carnivore squad; they're a waste of space at the moment. Put the human auxilliaries and maybe another member of the Tau Empire in Troops, make Fire Warriors a Mainstay unit (one allied Troops choice per fire warrior squad) et voila!

I think Pathfinders should be allowed to choose either Infiltrators or Scouts before the mission and not be allowed to take a devilfish. I've never understood why the army's recon troops would fly about in a clunky grav tank; the Forgeworld Tetras are a bit more reasonable but impractical in a standard army list. I also think their markerlights should be changed from 36" Heavy 1 to 18" Assault 1. I have always thought that the point of pathfinders was to get in close and highlight the enemy rather than sitting at the back sniping. Also by increasing their mobility somewhat they can do a bit of manoeuvring and actually have some tactical flexibility!

The Hammerhead needs some more options or a sister tank. Forgeworld have pretty much covered Hammerhead variants, but they're a good idea and again offer a bit of tactical flexibility. I think that the choice of weapons can go a long way towards characterising a player's army without the need for special doctrines or traits. The Tau, like the Necrons, have a hell of a lot of room for expansion. I'm looking forward to their revision :)

Necrontyr
09-05-2005, 20:42
There is no BS6. The array It would cap at BS5.

Actually Dark Eldar Archons are BS6, it's useless, but it does exist.

TaintedSpam
09-05-2005, 22:01
Actually Dark Eldar Archons are BS6, it's useless, but it does exist.

Ah. I had meant to imply that the targeting array wouldn't improve BS past BS5. Heck. You can even set the cap at BS4.

bigbauske
10-05-2005, 05:13
I think the increasedBs is one of the purest and simplest ways to go. If an average tank with a long range weapon is BS 4 why not a harded vet with a high dollar battle suite or a stealth trooper with a masking system. Sorry to point this out but these guys are elites. Keep the BS the same for every one else. If this is to over powering limit the number of suites you could have.

On the heavy weapon platform side I like the Idea of slow and purposfull for the Broardside, I can imagine them sowly stiding across the battle field fireing their weapons. The reason most people go with hammerheads is do to the move and fire ability. Move towards objectives, move to target, ect.

I like drones as the are now, but I think the carbines could use a upgrade of some sort, maybe 2 shoots? Not sure but in my experiance a carbine is light and has a high rate of fire, assault 2 at 18 inches might fit but wth maybe a 1 pt increase to carry and a limit of 6 to a squad. that way squads are not 18 inch 24 shot power houses.

Pathfinders, - one squad should be able to droop the fish, think of it, moving forward under cover, infultrating/forward recon on foot to light up good targets for your heavies. I like the idea and I think it would work.

As for the rest, I would have to think about, I do not use etherals, and although I run to 2 drone squads I generally do not mix them with suite. more like speed bumps or harasers.

Tastyfish
18-05-2005, 12:30
BS4 for the shas'vre, suits are enough points as it is so don't really think they need to get more expensive and stealths would become hideous with BS4.

Kroot beasts need to be squad options, means that the firewarriors don't really need options now as if you must have a multipurpose units the Kroot do that - Tau are specialists.

Drones I would tempted to make just count as additional wounds for the suits - you roll against suits and kill drones until there are none left. While its nice to be able to pick and chose what gets hit I don't see the drones ignoring a hail of bolter fire so that they are still going to be there to lure away a missile. On the otherhand this whole thing is irrelevant if they are rolling on the suits T and save (maybe just T?). Might be a bit good though.

What would be really nice is for them to do the proper auxerily unit that apparently forms the main battleline that the cadres then fight around. Kroot I'm sure it says are taken as scouts for the cadres as they strike in enemy territory rather than the main battle unit

More weapons and equipment - think that these would really add to the high tech feel and the continually advancing tech. I think we can be pretty sure that the Rail Rifles will be safe in the new codex now they have sorted the feedback thing out.

xerxeshavelock
25-05-2005, 10:47
One thing that doesnít get discussed is the lack of people using Burst Cannon on suits. I would suggest either a points break or to say they are free, that way if points are a bit scarce it would still be worth taking them, and 3 S5 shots in the side/rear of a vehicle, maybe followed by an assault, is not to be sneezed at.

Scythe
25-05-2005, 19:04
Actually Dark Eldar Archons are BS6, it's useless, but it does exist.

Not entirly. There's a Nurgle minor psychic power which gives an enemy unit -1BS. BS5 is affected, BS6 is not...... :D

Dranthar
27-08-2005, 03:37
Not entirly. There's a Nurgle minor psychic power which gives an enemy unit -1BS. BS5 is affected, BS6 is not...... :D

Wow, so the archon will still be able to shoot his S3 splinter pistol and hit on a 2 then? :rolleyes:


Anywho, what do you guys think would make pulse carbines a viable but not essential alternative to pulse rifles, without increasing their points cost?

Would Assault 2 at 18" be too good? How about Assault 2 at 12"?