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Imperius
28-03-2009, 22:20
Ditching my I.G. project, I want something a little bit harder. So I picked the Eldar. Yet I don't know how they play, I only know how to kill them. I'm hoping to make a list that is very very good at capturing objectives, usually more than 2 objectives.

The main things I want to know:

What is the difference, other than looks, between craftworlds?
How do they play?
What subtelties are important when you are trying to play as them?

And also, could anyone please make a list for me using this link (http://cytadela.pl/cgibin/shop?show=46)? I will have about 2000 Zwoti to spend on 40K when I go to Poland and I don't want to waste it.

isidril93
28-03-2009, 22:28
they are very fast and very elite...each unit choice is good against one thing.
there isnt really any difference tactically (as they have no other rules)
biel-tan focuses on aspect warriors
altailoc focuses on rangers
ulthwe focuses on seers and guardians
iyanden focuses on wraithguard/lords
saim-haim focuses on jetbikes

what type of army do you want?

Imperius
28-03-2009, 22:38
By the way you wrote it I would like to use the Biel Tan craftworld, but if they are all metal I am also leaning on Altailoc.

If both are metal, I may be forced into Ulthwe or Saim-ham.

isidril93
28-03-2009, 22:40
they might be metal but you wont need that many.
dire avengers which should make up the bulk of a biel tan force are plastic

you get 8 guardians per box...not even enough to make a unit so price is quite misleading

you only need about 4 metal units, rest can be plastic dire avengers

Imperius
29-03-2009, 00:57
for.. say a 1,500 point army, how many units of Dire Avengers do I need? Do they count as Scoring?

Irisado
29-03-2009, 01:16
for.. say a 1,500 point army, how many units of Dire Avengers do I need? Do they count as Scoring?

Dire Avengers are troops, so they are a scoring unit.

As for how many units to take in a 1500 point list, much depends on how many other units of troops you plan to take, what the overall composition of your army is, and what your strategy will be, so that's a bit harder to answer.

Generally around three or four scoring units are advisable, however, this is set in water rather than stone.

If you would like to read information about how Eldar units work in fifth edition, please feel free to have a look at the Eldar Guide (link via my signature), as this may help you with some of your decision making.

Imperius
29-03-2009, 02:19
Ok, so I'm going to use:

Note: All Aspects have an Exarch

Farseer, Doom, Guide
10 Warp Spiders
10 Howling Banshees with a Wave Serpent
6 Fire Dragons
10 Striking Scorpions with a Wave Serpent
30 Dire avengers
1 Fire Prism

hardrockfreak1337
29-03-2009, 02:26
Those Dire Avengers would love a transport in larger point games. I would drop the Fire Dragons, because they need a transport to be effective. IMO one DA squad should have 8 guys so the Seer can ride with them. DAs love bladestorm and defend can help your cc units in combat.

Imperius
29-03-2009, 02:31
I would actually prefer to hide my Seer and just have him say 'Wimgardium Leviosa' or some other stuff and make my units better at both assaulting and shooting.

I would like to put my Fire Dragons into reserve, if that is at all possible, and would really hope the enemy tanks are somewhere that the meltas can wreak havoc.

A1TEC
29-03-2009, 03:00
You need to work on developing your army so that the dire avengers are the main force, but you could use the fire dragons, but they are pretty useless if they do not get close. If you placed them in a transport it it was destroyed then it is a waste of points, so just get ride of them. You could also use guardian bikes to give a wave serpant cover whilst it is on the way to the battle.:skull:

Dervos
29-03-2009, 06:30
Ditching my I.G. project, I want something a little bit harder. So I picked the Eldar. Yet I don't know how they play, I only know how to kill them. I'm hoping to make a list that is very very good at capturing objectives, usually more than 2 objectives.

The main things I want to know:

What is the difference, other than looks, between craftworlds?
How do they play?
What subtelties are important when you are trying to play as them?

And also, could anyone please make a list for me using this link (http://cytadela.pl/cgibin/shop?show=46)? I will have about 2000 Zwoti to spend on 40K when I go to Poland and I don't want to waste it.

isidril listed the main 5 eldar craftworlds but there are a whole bunch of other schemes but I don't think they had specific details about them other than where their craftworld is in the galaxy and what their color scheme is.

You dont have to necessarily make your themed craft world army follow the proscribed fluff to them if you don't want to if you like a certain color scheme. But other than that eldar are glass hammers, fragile compared to many other armies but can be very lethal if used, they require a lot more finesse than some of the other armies. Since you want a list good at capturing objectives you might consider a mechanized list with guardian jetbikes for troop choices or if you dont like a mechanized list then another troop based squad loaded into a wave serpent, because it will take a while to go anywhere if they run the whole time.

After looking at the list you made above I'm going to assume that you don't want a mechanized eldar list so take wave serpents for your troops like Imperius and others said; all of your elite choices rely on getting into close combat, its less important for your DA since they can shoot but its really critical for those CC units to get in the enemies face.

Like A1TEC said your army will be heavily based on your troops choice; the numbers they represent of your army and for scoring purposes.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-03-2009, 08:17
What is the difference, other than looks, between craftworlds?



None. At least not on the scale 40k operates on. The 20-50 troops you put on the table in a 40k game is such a small force that what Craftworld they come from is irrelevant.
There are some cultural differences between the Craftworlds and yes, if looking at there entire army there is likely to be some differences (but those differences is also likely to fluctuate with time and is at least as influenced by the size of the craftworld as it is by it's culture) but at there core the various Eldar armies consist of the same things and fight the same way.

You would IMO be better of just picking a colour scheme you like and then building the army you like painted like that.

Oh, and a small note about Alaitoc. They don't actually focus on Rangers at all. They are known for being even stricter with the path system than other craftworlds and so see more young eldars exploring the path of the outcast, but the Alaitoc army would actually be your bog standard Eldar army.

Irisado
29-03-2009, 14:13
On the issue of Fire Dragons:

If you run the Striking Scorpions on foot with the Dire Avengers and put the Fire Dragons in the second Wave Serpent, you can create a viable list using the hammer and anvil, or similar strategies, so that's one way of solving that problem.


None. At least not on the scale 40k operates on. The 20-50 troops you put on the table in a 40k game is such a small force that what Craftworld they come from is irrelevant.
There are some cultural differences between the Craftworlds and yes, if looking at there entire army there is likely to be some differences (but those differences is also likely to fluctuate with time and is at least as influenced by the size of the craftworld as it is by it's culture) but at there core the various Eldar armies consist of the same things and fight the same way.

I disagree I'm afraid. Eldar forces from different Craftworlds can have small differences in the way in which they are fielded on the table top.

Iyanden or Iyanden themed armies tend to have more Wraithguard and Wraithlords

Alaitoc armies tend to have more Rangers, Guardians, War Walkers.

Saim Hann armies tend to have more Jetbikes, Vypers and Shining Spears, and are often fully mechanised.

Biel Tan armies tend to have fewer Guardians than Aspect Warriors, or in some cases, no Guardian units at all.

Ulthwé armies tend to field a Seer Council type unit, and more Dire Avengers (sometimes in the form of 'count as' Black Guardians).

While the differences may not be as stark as was the case back in third edition, they do still exist.


You would IMO be better of just picking a colour scheme you like and then building the army you like painted like that.

I agree with this to a certain extent, in that by choosing your own colour scheme, you could design your own Craftworld, as this is how I created my Craftworld, but I still feel that having an accompanying narrative is very important too.


Oh, and a small note about Alaitoc. They don't actually focus on Rangers at all. They are known for being even stricter with the path system than other craftworlds and so see more young eldars exploring the path of the outcast, but the Alaitoc army would actually be your bog standard Eldar army.

The Alaitoc army isn't really a bog standard Eldar army. You shouldn't trust everything you read on Wikipedia you know ;).

While the emphasis on Rangers tends to be exaggerated, Alaitoc are famous for their outcasts, as your rightly say, but many of them return to help the Craftworld in times of need in the guise of Rangers, so there will be more of them than in other Craftworld armies in my view.

The Alaitoc Craftworld also has stronger links with the Webway and the Harlequins than many of the other Craftworlds too, so there is a higher chance of Harlequins being found in Alaitoc armies.

Alaitoc also are renowned for their stealth, so some Alaitoc players opt not to use vehicles (apart from War Walkers), as they feel that the noise of Eldar skimmers would detract from the sneaky infiltration tactics of an Alaitoc force.

There are a variety of reasons, therefore, why it could be argued that Alaitoc are not a standard Eldar army. Moreover, I would argue that there is actually no such thing as a standard Eldar army, but perhaps that's a discussion for another thread :).

5Pointer
29-03-2009, 15:44
Alaitoc always used to be bog standard - at least in that it was the Eldar equivalent to Ultramarines back in the day.

Irisado
29-03-2009, 19:47
Alaitoc always used to be bog standard - at least in that it was the Eldar equivalent to Ultramarines back in the day.

I think that Alaitoc gained the impression of being 'bog standard' because their paint scheme was used for the original studio army back in the Rogue Trader era, but if you delve into their background, this is not the case in my view.

Imperius
30-03-2009, 02:55
I got 2 packs of Dire Avengers and a Wave Serpent. And I don't think I will have a centralized craftworld. Howling Banshees will be painted like Howling Banshees, Scorpions will be painted like-wise, and this goes too for all my Aspect Warriors.
But I am going to paint my tanks/transports differently.

On a point that actually matters to you people:

If I want to use my tanks solely for transports, and possibly for fire support what weapons should I put on them. I turn to your guys' wisdom in this matter.

Irisado
30-03-2009, 11:50
If I want to use my tanks solely for transports, and possibly for fire support what weapons should I put on them. I turn to your guys' wisdom in this matter.

I'm a little confused by your statement, as Wave Serpents are dedicated transports in any case, so I assume you are planning on running a mixture of Falcons and Wave Serpents. Am I correct?

If your tanks are going to be focused on transporting units, then you want to keep the weapons as cheap as possible, since you will not be firing them very regularly.

There are, in my view, in three options:

1. Shuriken Cannon: Cheap and cheerful. It's a solid anti-infantry weapon, which can also be used to shoot at tanks with poor rear armour too.

2. Scatter Laser: Similar to the Shuriken Cannon, except that it's additional range and extra shot can make it more attractive.

3. EML firing Plasma Missiles: This has the advantage of being a defensive weapon, but it's more expensive than the other two options. I would say it's more viable against hordes, and if you want the option of firing the odd Krak Missile for anti-tank once the troops have disembarked.

Other considerations:

Specifically with regard to the Wave Serpent, the Brightlance is also a possibility, should you find yourself lacking anti-tank. If you are interested in this option though, it is better to mount it on a Wave Serpent carrying Dire Avengers, since a Brightlance Wave Serpent carrying a unit such as Fire Dragons or Howling Banshees tends to attract even more firepower than it would normally do. Dragons and Banshees also tend to need their transports to offer them anti-infantry fire support, hence the Brightlance isn't the best choice for their transport.

I hope that helps.

Starchild
30-03-2009, 19:40
My advice:

Don't worry about the Craftworlds. Gav got carried away when he wrote Codex: Craftworld Eldar. He got the idea from the Eldar Warhost free cards in Epic, where you got one free unit depending on which of the five Craftworlds you played. The point was to add a bit of flavour, not to create unmanageable specialization.

Every Craftworld has access to every unit, period.

Codex: Craftworld Eldar even states that any Craftworld can field any of the specialized formations; so there could be Biel-tan Ranger forces or Saim-Hann Ghost Warriors, for example.

I recommend picking the paint scheme + insignia of the Craftworld that looks best to you, and then building your army based on your personal preferences (Aspect Warriors, apparently.) The good thing is that the Eldar codex has more than enough options to cater to your own tastes. ;)

In regards to your plans, I suggest splitting the Warp Spiders into two smaller units of 5 or 6 each. A full squad of 10 Spiders can be unwieldy and difficult to maneuver; smaller units are easier to hide behind terrain.

The Scorpions don't necessarily need a Wave Serpent; Shadowstrike allows them to infiltrate or outflank, so mobility is normally not an issue. It would be much more useful to put a squad of Avengers in the second Wave Serpent, which turns their 18" weapon range into a benefit, not a liability.

Dire Avengers are excellent troops, but Guardians fulfill their role well enough in smaller games if you find yourself short on points. You may also want to try Shadow Weavers or Vibrocannons for anti-infantry support (especially against the new IG!), since Eldar are *woefully* outranged by Imperial and Tau armies.

Two Fire Prisms is *always* 100% better than one!

***

Fire Prism (x2) = 299.78
Wave Serpent (x2) = 217.78
Falcon (1) = 109.89
Striking Scorpions (x2) = 157.78
Howling Banshees (x2) = 157.78
Warp Spiders (x2) = 157.78
Fire Dragons (1) = 78.89
Farseer (1) = 34.89
Rangers (x2) = 157.78

TOTAL = 1372.35

brightblade
30-03-2009, 20:41
Don't ask me. My Eldar just got slaughtered ! Lol. Totally outplayed, so much so my head is spinning.

Don't even remember what the blue guys are called.

Deary me.

Mind you, I loved every minute of it. :D