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bagobitz
29-03-2009, 06:40
What are so good about the stingwings? What are some good ways to use them?

Devil Tree
29-03-2009, 07:00
I heard they make good paperweights. :rolleyes:

Born Again
29-03-2009, 07:30
Vespid were designed as space marine killers, hence the strength 5, AP 3 Assault-type gun. The flaw with them is, they only have a 12" range. This means anything that survives is within charge and/ or rapid fire range, making them as good as dead next turn unless they wipe out or break their target. This has lead to them being forgotten by most players in favour of pathfinders or piranhas.

I have some and they've never done anything amazingly impressive, but haven't been a total disgrace either. You're better off taking something else for FA, unless you particularly like the models. Even in that case, don't bank on them too much, and make sure they have support. I find they can do alright with some battlesuits nearby, or combining firepower with warrior teams.

Clockwork-Knight
29-03-2009, 07:56
I guess they would probably make good units in Cityfight-games, but then again, who plays such scenario anyway? :p

Kelpi
29-03-2009, 08:03
I'm not sure what they were thinking when they included Vespids, although I suspect it was something along the lines of "hey guys, the Tau fluff says there are multiple alien allies and we only have one, lets quickly shoe-horn something in"

That said I've been wanting to convert some jetpack Humans as stand-ins, fluff wise they would be later generation Gui'vesa who have combined low-powered melta-weapons with tau jetpack technology.

Sadly there aren't many plain old humans with jetpacks in the GW range, although the new guard might have some promise. Closest I can see are the AT-43 UNA Wing Troopers.

Creeping Dementia
29-03-2009, 08:10
I heard they make good paperweights. :rolleyes:

This sounds about right.

Some people have tried to get some good use out of them but it really requires a ton of effort for a moderate return. And seriously, they don't do much that Crisis suits can't, and Crisis suits are more survivable and get better results for the point cost.

As they are, Vespid suck. They either need a big point reduction, better weapons, or greatly increased survivability (or preferably a combination of some of the above).

ehlijen
29-03-2009, 10:51
They have some important strenghts:
-The fastest Tau unit short of phiranhas
-The highest Ld Tau unit apart from characters
-The cheapest space marine busters in the list.

But they pay for that in weapons range.

They are a support unit, a fast cav disruption unit if you will, that is meant to be used against enemy fire support units and threathen the enemies rear. Chuck them at some devestators and you can quite possibly remove them from the game (first casualties and then stuck fighting the vespid in CC).
They cannot stand against main line units; at best they can help mop them up after your main units are done crushing them.

They need to be used far more aggressively than other Tau units and with more accuracy as, unlike the usual staple of fish warriors and suits, they have no escape button. With ok defenses and high ld, they are not meant to need them as much, but they are very different tools to other Tau units (which is why they make a neat new 'ally' race).

They are tougher, more manourerable hormagaunts with superguns instead of claws. Not the best combo, granted, but they can work if you look at them that way.

Grazzy
29-03-2009, 11:26
They are quite bad really - youre better off with crisis suits. They might work in support of a fish of fury but they are just too easy to kill. If you wan taliens, get kroot - they are shooty and half decent in combat.

Razarael
29-03-2009, 11:47
16 points for a jump troop with an AP3 gun? They are able to keep up with Crisis suits and offer powerful fire to help eliminate threats that the Crisis suits would not be able to finish on their own. A squad of Crisis Suits can only put out so much firepower, why not have some relatively cheap mobile firepower? Of course by themselves they're just going to be a one hit crapshoot, but luckily they are included in an army, not by themselves.

And shouldn't this be in 'tactics' not 'general'?

Spyral
29-03-2009, 13:48
An interesting tactic I heard was to pair them with stealthsuits. Shoot the stealth suits through them at your MEq enemy who takes 3+ armour saves insead of 4+ cover saves markerlight them too. Fire your vespids with +1bs fro the markerlight. Hop the stealthsuits (3+sv) over the vespids to give them cover. However your suits will be assaulted if you haven't taken your enemy down.

lantzkev
29-03-2009, 22:44
The highest Ld Tau unit apart from characters

well they are 7 base... adding a strainleader is a must and makes them 9, but meh they won't be taking much moral wise before they are completely dead.

The skilled flier means you can deepstrike them down into cover, and hopefully take out some support that's firing from the back field (aka devestator squads)

FraustyTheSnowman
30-03-2009, 03:27
If you're looking for most competitive, look elsewhere. If you're looking for how to use them anyways, well, listen up.

Keep them in with kroot, in a forest somewhere. The kroot bunker down, and pelt things with their guns, taking advantage of the bonus cover and all that. Angry marine player sends in some assault marines to "handle" the kroot. You have the vespid come through the forest (due to skilled flier), shoot the heck out of the assault marines, and then either charge with the kroot or the vespid, depending on how much opposition is left.

Tyndmyr
30-03-2009, 06:50
I heard they make good paperweights. :rolleyes:

Quoted for truth.

The biggest problem with vespids is the point cost. For a substantial discount, the mobility might make them a useful tool. As it is, they tend to cost more than their target MEQ units, and do a rather poor job killing them. If you compare the guns and stats of each against each other, you'll realize that a bolter round is exactly as lethal to a vespid as a vespid's gun is to a marine. Problem is, the bolter has rapid fire, double the range, and is a lot easier and cheaper to field.

In melee, they're only marginally less bad than the rest of the tau force. I wouldn't advise taking them for melee reasons.

Oh, and beware of any models with the ability to snipe a model out of a unit. Lose the strain leader, and the squad becomes nearly worthless. Thanks to low average leadership, a callidus can also wipe the squad in a turn. Unfortunately, there is no real chance of that failing, so....hope you never face one.

mukelnas
30-03-2009, 11:47
I think vespids get a bad rap. They are not great, but they don't SUCK.Most of the time I would rather have pathfinders, but I use a 10 man squad of vespids when I am in a risk taking mood. I find they are only really effective at taking out one enemy unit, I usualy target my friend's bikes, after that they die most of the time, or they can protect one unit for a wile. The most important thing when using vespids is ALLWAYS KEEP THEM IN COVER, unless they are intercepting an assult. In the end they tend to be a one shot weapon.

lantzkev
31-03-2009, 18:31
I think vespids get a bad rap... but I use a 10 man squad of vespids when I am in a risk taking mood.

I think that can stand on its own :evilgrin:

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 18:39
What are so good about the stingwings? What are some good ways to use them?

If you actually run the Mathhammer Vespid do better than Fireknife at popping marines. They make great supplementary fire for your Rapid Firing, Firewarriors. (unload from the sides of your Fish to do the RF)

the Vespid can keep pace with your Warfish and Firewarriors as they are true Jump Infantry, thanks to skilled Flyer, landing them into cover isn't a bad idea, but also landing them so they have some form of intervening cover against the other parts of your enemy army is a good idea as well.

I use them in conjunction with my Storming Tau.

You can't get away with 6 manning them though I'll warn you now. Most people that use them probably only use 6 and then they end up disappointed with them. 10 makes them much more deadly and they can also benefit tremendously from Markerlights.

I run two squads of 10, a pair of Ion heads, pair of Broadsides (might run three I've got some pts left over) 2 12 man firewarriors with Warfish. And I've presently got alot of pts left over. Which I'll probably use for Pathfinders.

Vespid unlike Kroot, don't suck. I can't stand Kroot. Kroot, and Gundrones are by far the worst units in the codex.

lantzkev
31-03-2009, 19:43
I really think you need ro re-evaluate kroot, just throw some hounds in with em (10) and watch how they perform. I've rarely had a game where they didn't point for point take out opponents for what they cost, then the undefined benefit of forcing opponents to focus on them, and tying them up further out infront of your gunline.

As for the OP question, one thing you must have with vespids is a markerlight hit or two to up thier BS

Captain Micha
31-03-2009, 20:10
It's all about Kp not Vp. And anyone that engages Kroot in melee is a fool anyway. Kroot are easily ignored in favor of the actually dangerous targets.

Also about Vespid they are cheap in a large sized squad. 166 for 9 with a Strain Leader.

That's considerably cheaper than Fireknife. I haven't run the two together yet (as I run aforementioned Storm list) but I am curious as to how they do with each other.

Creeping Dementia
31-03-2009, 21:28
If you actually run the Mathhammer Vespid do better than Fireknife at popping marines.

This is true, but there are many other things to consider other than the simple math of killing marines.

Crisis, you're comparing them to Fireknives so I'll stick with that, are more survivable, and are good against a larger variety of targets than just marines, and have a more useable range.

I think your Mathhammer will be a little different if you consider that Vespid will fire 1 time, maybe 2 or 3 with a lot of luck, per game, while Fireknives will be firing every turn they are alive due to better range. Additionally, while Vespid have a 12 inch range, Fireknives have a 30-40 inch range (including the 6 inch jump) depending on the weapon, so trouble with melee is much less of a problem, and even being rapid fired at is much less likely. Add onto that the better armor save, smaller footprint, and Fireknives are just plain better. And Fireknives are also usefull against light vehicles and 2+ armor as well.

I'm not saying that Vespid "suck" but there are better, more flexable units for the job they perform, and better units to take up Fast attack slots. In games that are just for fun where you don't care about being competitive (Apoc, games against new guys), sure go for Vespid and try to make them work why not. But in any sort of competitive atmosphere you're just hamstringing yourself by not taking better units.

lantzkev
31-03-2009, 22:49
if you're competent at all, infiltrating or flank marching the kroot make them impossible to ignore!