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zendral
14-12-2005, 06:34
He guys. I just wanted some advice and on which army i should pick. Tzeentch (mortal), or Tomb Kings. Im a vet 40k player trying something new and i play thousand sons. ( obviously i like egyption stuff). So i dont want to do both, if i could get some pros and cons and general advice on which one i should pick, and how they work as far as tactics, i would really appreciate it. I do have a small understanding of the game, ive read most of the rulebook, so im not completely oblivious on certain things.

aakurtz
14-12-2005, 06:44
It depends on if you like winning. If you like unbalanced and under powered, go TK. If you wanna get called cheesy, go Tzeentch.

zendral
14-12-2005, 06:47
I like to have fun, winning isnt priority 1. but i dont like losing all the time either. From what i understand, do tomb kings have a hard time getting off there incantations?

adreal
14-12-2005, 07:00
Ok first off, Tzeentch in fantasy can go uber cheese, but if you make a normal choas army, combined with the expensive mark of Tzeentch, not many people will call cheese, try and stay away from the eye of tzeentch.

Tomb kings are not underpowered, and have an easy time getting there incantations off. Yes they most of there character slots used up to support the army. And alot of there infantry seem crap and you will be tempted to go all chariot. But you can make a fun army, I guess it all comes down too, do you want another tzeentch army, or a change of pace completly?

Flypaper
14-12-2005, 07:16
Tomb Kings have my favourite model range in the game and are viciously, devastatingly nasty in the hands of a trained professional.

...They're also probably the worst army for a beginner to pick up. :angel:

Tomb Kings don't "scale" well. Expect to lose a lot of games at low points' values, spend a lot of time getting their feel before scoring any wins 2K, then overwhelm opponents at 3K! This is mainly because they depend a lot on their Lord choices for survival - and because they need to spend a lot on magic (and consequently characters).

Tomb Kings also depend heavily on their special rules to win. This makes them a bad learning tool - you don't get aquainted with some of the basic rules of thumb you would learn from any other army.

Okay, end rant. :) Here's the more judgment-neutral take on how both armies play:

Tzeench mortals: 100% mortals is going to leave you a bit low on tactical flexibility. I'll assume, though, that you're willing to take some Beasts and Daemons in your special slots - that's how the army's designed to be played, anyway!

Tzeench is the god of magic. That's why he has possibly the worst spell lore in the game! He makes up for it, though, by helping his chosen cast lots of spells. It's also nice having close combat monster characters who also happen to be L4 wizards.

Mortal Chaos troops proper are usually chunky in close combat, decently armoured, and expensive. You've got hard-hitting-hammers (knights) at an even higher premium, and some acceptable disruption/speed troops in Warhounds and Marauder horsemen.

Tzeench daemons are a decent selection. You get Horrors, which are expensive but cast extra bound spells - which also happen to be fairly fun! - and Screamers which are arguably the best flying disruption troop in the game.

The Beasts book gave all of Chaos a needed boost. You only spend a Special slot on 'em, and you get all sorts of helpful options: Beastherds as a better (faster) "horde" unit than Marauders, Minotaurs with great weapons as armour-busters, and Dragon Ogres as awesome "superheavy" cavalry.


Tomb Kings: Tomb Kings are tricky to play, and need to be built from the ground up around your general. The regular rule of thumb is that you either make a "King" army with chariots, heavy cavalry, Ushabti and a Bone Giant; or a "High Liche Priest" army with multiple Catapults and units of Skeleton Archers.

...Either way you're going high-magic. But that's unavoidable as you have to take at least one Liche and even your hero-level Princes are spellcasters!

Tomb Kings play quite differently from Vampire Counts. Firstly because they actually have the option of fielding a shooting-heavy army, but also because their undead constructs mean they actually feild a decent number of high-quality troops as opposed to just piling on the massed Skeletons.

TK are the single most reliant army in the game on magic - much more so than Tzeench, funnily enough! With it, they're speed demons with 40"-moving flyers and hasted chariots. Without it, they're static, low on tactical options, and easy to divide and destroy piecemeal.

One point about TK is that they're the most predictable army in the game... From the perspective of the person running them, that is. TK can ignore psychology altogether, always successfuly cast their spells, and even their archers always hit on a five regardless of modifiers! If you've looked at Orcs and Goblins and can't stand the thought of another failed animosity test, then TK may well be for you.

Morph
14-12-2005, 08:34
General agreement with Flypaper and Adreal here. Tomb Kings are a terrible army to start with as a beginner to Warhammer. Mostly because they have a lot of special rules to think about and so are bad for actually learning how Warhammer games usually play (and you will loose a lot of games when you first use them). But they are by no means a bad or underpowered army!

Tzeentch mortals (with a splash of daemons) are a good solid choice. You don't have to over-cheese them (it's just the possibility is there - people expect cheesy Tzeentch armies). Take some chosen knights, some warrior units, heroes, some dogs, screamers. All good, and that gives you a rounded view of how heavy cavalry, fast cavalry, infantry and flyers operate, as well as magic and choppy heroes.

aakurtz
14-12-2005, 20:11
I agree that TK takes more learning and skill than chaos, but if you played chaos with half the skill taken to play TK you would destroy just about anything. the reason people think TK is an army that "takes skill" is cause thats the only way your going to win. Besides your phases being all changed up due to TK magic, its really not that complexe of an army. Because TK is so magic heavy, anyone i play doubles up on Dispell dice and the game is over pretty fast when you get one spell of a magic phase. I play both VC and TK and i just went back to VC due to the fact that its too easy to make an anti-TK list.

zendral
14-12-2005, 21:59
Well i thought about it, and i decided i want to change and not do another tzeentch army in fantasy. TK just look so good and i love how they have to work together like a machine to work out. I can get past the fact that there difficult, and i have no problem whatsoever losing a bunch in the beggining. Losing to me is learning. So i am curious about what armies are effective against TK and why. I also have a freind that plays lizardmen, and constantly brags about anti-magic crap that will stop my incantations, whats the word on this?

OH and btw thanks for all your advice and responses.

gorenut
14-12-2005, 22:10
I think you made a good choice. We really need more people playing the less popular armies.

In general, armies with good anti-magic and good leadership/immune to psychology do well against Tomb Kings.

All I can say is.. get scream skull catapults.. incantations.. you're shooting multiple times a turn. It's pretty crazy the amount of fire you can unload with Tomb Kings when situations are ideal.

Mad Makz
14-12-2005, 22:51
One piece of advice, based on Aakurtz statement:

Tomb kings WILL seriously suffer in the current edition if your opponent is tailoring their armies to face you. Tomb Kings meanwhile, don't have a lot of options for tailoring their army to face specific foes.

My advice is to check that your play group is NOT going to be tailoring armies to opponents. Tomb Kings are much more balanced in a non-tailored environment where armies are expected to be able to take on all-comers.

aakurtz
14-12-2005, 23:11
One piece of advice, based on Aakurtz statement:

Tomb kings WILL seriously suffer in the current edition if your opponent is tailoring their armies to face you. Tomb Kings meanwhile, don't have a lot of options for tailoring their army to face specific foes.

My advice is to check that your play group is NOT going to be tailoring armies to opponents. Tomb Kings are much more balanced in a non-tailored environment where armies are expected to be able to take on all-comers.

Agreed. Tailoring against TK is very easy and tailoring against other armies is very hard. As a TK player you need to fear...

-Anti-magic (dwarfs and other armies that shut down magic)
-Any army who gets cannons (DONT TAKE CHARIOTS!!, a good side shot on a unit of chariots holding your TK is a game ender (another reason i fear dwarfs))

The 2 things TK do well is cast magic and feed of the enemies low LD which they can do both of in one list. Its not like you make your fear/panic list or your magic list... its pretty much the same list. And if your enemies dont have low LD or bad anti-magic (Did i say i hate dwarfs?) prepare for a tough battle.
-

adreal
15-12-2005, 02:47
Don't worry to much about anti-magic, even lizardmen arn't that scary. Oh sure, then can invest a ton of points in the anti-magic, extra dispell dice stuff. But they only have one use items, or they have to beat your incantation rolls, and if you take a casket of souls (or read: Slaan killer lol), they will save some dice for that, letting you cast your incantaions freely.

Tips of trade if you will

Hierophant with cloak of dunes (20" movement for the most important model in your army)
Cast the extra turn of shooting incantation on your catapult, helps you guess ranges for your real shooting phase
Never send a unit in one on one with another, you will loose.
You never have to worry about shooting modifiers, you will always hit on a 5+, no asmount of chamilion skinks or magic can change that.
Slaan die alot easier to the casket of souls then anything else in the TK army, and they will always see it unless you are in base to base with the slaan himself, remembrer that.

MarcoPollo
15-12-2005, 02:55
For a beginner, Tzeetch is probably the easiest to learn. You get a good magic phase and a good combat phase. You will need to learn to guard against shooting, and may get outmanouvered but you can compensate for the nastyness that Tzeetch can bring.

TK is a deadly army in the hands of a proffessional. You need to know the intricacies of the game well and the magic phase for TK can be a little bit too much to learn all at once. But once you have played with them and learn their specialities, I think you would like them alot.

Besides, Tzeetch will not cost you too much to start and painting up 60 models is alot easier and cheaper than 100+ of boring skeletons. Save the TK for a second army.

aakurtz
15-12-2005, 04:25
TK is a deadly army in the hands of a proffessional. You need to know the intricacies of the game well and the magic phase for TK can be a little bit too much to learn all at once. But once you have played with them and learn their specialities, I think you would like them alot.


Any army is deadly in the hands of a proffessional. I dont think TK is any better for those who claim to be skilled at WH.

Makaber
15-12-2005, 04:43
Of course, there's no such thing as a "professional Warhammer player".

Slappy
15-12-2005, 05:11
Don't listen to anyone tell you Tzeentch magic sucks. I actually find it to be a very fun and powerful Lore. I played Tzeentch DL for a while and had great success with it.

Yes, it's not flat out Broken like Skaven, Waaaghh!, and some other Lores are, but it's still good.

Flypaper
15-12-2005, 06:43
Tomb Kings is quite a solid choice against Lizardmen. Don't worry too much about the anti-magic: Unless he's playing a (rare) Sacred Host of Tepok he won't have many more dispel dice than any other medium-magic army. Also, he has no decent magic disruption items other than the expensive and predictable Cube of Darkness + Mark of the Old Ones combo.

Alternatively, he could be playing a Southlands list with up to five Skink Priests. If so... You're in luck! TK have the game's best tools for killing skinkies.

One of lizzies' few weaknesses is high-impact, large blocks of fear causers. TK heavy cavalry aren't as good as Black Knights at the role, but Chariot blocks work fairly well. Mind the S7 Kroxigors and Saurus heroes, though.

Fear is more useful against lizzies than most people give it credit for - sweeping Skinks out of the way with ease is very helpful, and as with all elite infantry it's the most efficient way (assuming an outnumber) to take out Saurus Warriors or Temple Guard. In fact, in the case of the Guard it's virtually the only way to break 'em. :eyebrows:

Finally, a Catapult is gold against reptiles. A direct hit on a Saurus block is worth a delicious amount of victory points... But more importantly, lizzie support troops like Skinks, Terradons and Salamanders have much lower leadership than people realise. A few helpful panic tests, and your opponent will have nothing to oppose you with but slow and predictable infantry blocks.

aakurtz
15-12-2005, 09:19
Tomb Kings is quite a solid choice against Lizardmen. Don't worry too much about the anti-magic: Unless he's playing a (rare) Sacred Host of Tepok he won't have many more dispel dice than any other medium-magic army. Also, he has no decent magic disruption items other than the expensive and predictable Cube of Darkness + Mark of the Old Ones combo.

Alternatively, he could be playing a Southlands list with up to five Skink Priests. If so... You're in luck! TK have the game's best tools for killing skinkies.

One of lizzies' few weaknesses is high-impact, large blocks of fear causers. TK heavy cavalry aren't as good as Black Knights at the role, but Chariot blocks work fairly well. Mind the S7 Kroxigors and Saurus heroes, though.

Fear is more useful against lizzies than most people give it credit for - sweeping Skinks out of the way with ease is very helpful, and as with all elite infantry it's the most efficient way (assuming an outnumber) to take out Saurus Warriors or Temple Guard. In fact, in the case of the Guard it's virtually the only way to break 'em. :eyebrows:

Finally, a Catapult is gold against reptiles. A direct hit on a Saurus block is worth a delicious amount of victory points... But more importantly, lizzie support troops like Skinks, Terradons and Salamanders have much lower leadership than people realise. A few helpful panic tests, and your opponent will have nothing to oppose you with but slow and predictable infantry blocks.

I cant believe you just did a whole TK vs lizardmen and didnt include the casket. The casket is much much better then the catapult or giant. And if it came down to the catapult or giant, id probabaly go giant.

Morph
15-12-2005, 10:19
I cant believe you just did a whole TK vs lizardmen and didnt include the casket. The casket is much much better then the catapult or giant. And if it came down to the catapult or giant, id probabaly go giant.

I imagine it's because not that many TKs actually take the casket. It's just not appealing to me at all. They'll save a dispel scroll for it everytime, and it's just so static and easy to take out. I'd rather not leave my Heirophant on his own.

TKs vs Lizards seems a fairly even match. Their Ld may be a little annoying, saurus will mince through skellies and they can get some magical protection but they pay points for it. They're going to fail to dispel things every so often. Meanwhile your shooting can take out their low T skirmishers, your catapults will hurt saurus units and remember they still flee from outnumbering.

Anyway, welcome to TKs, Zendral. Check out some of the tactics discussions in the tactic forum and have fun!

AllTheWayUlthwe
16-12-2005, 01:39
WOW! This is actually some great advice. I hope you are taking it all to heart. I just want to chime in here for a bit as well.

I have been a 40K player for over 15 years. I got into Fantasy withthe TK's as my first army. Let me tell you it was GREAT! The TK's are not that hard to learn or cut your teeth on at all, don't be fooled here. I like taking the TK's for all of the reasons listed above and if I might for ONE more reason. A Fantasy game is split into phases. Charge, Move, Magic, Shoot & HtH. If you take a Chaos army you miss out on one of those phases the Shooting, as in a mortal army you have maurader Horsemen and the Hell Cannon as the only missle weapons. In a TK army you have bows and catapults and chariots that can fire and shoot. I have a undivided Chaos army and I rarely take any magic and I have denied myself tow of the greatphases of the game for me. At times I really miss em'.

Yes, the TK's are magic dependant and really only do well at the 2000 point mark. But that is OK. You have a shambling army that when combined with magic can be VERY fast. I can't tell you how cool it is to be playing a game and having a bone giant ready to charge in the magic phase and having an opponent use dispel dice and all of his dispel scrolls to stop the charge. I typically run a King a Hiero and 2 priests. After about the King and 2 priests getting thier magic shut down I can cast the movement incantation on the bone giant and watch hime tear into a smallish unit, break it and watch the ensuing panic checks and the terro checks on all of rest of the army. This usually happens on turn 2 and now I have sucked all of my opponents dispell scrolls out of him and I have nothing to fear the rest of the game.

One other tid-bit of advice. Keep you priests kind of together and double up on their incatation range. So if someone shuts down ones incantation then the other priest can try it again that same turn.

The TK's ROCK. You will not be dissapointed.

Flypaper
16-12-2005, 04:27
I cant believe you just did a whole TK vs lizardmen and didnt include the casket.
Hey, I figured you'd pimped it enough. ;)

...To be honest, I've never actually seen one fielded - the general impression I'm given is that they're a bit too inefficient for 2000 points. I'm willing to trust your judgment on this one... And to remember to take the 2+ Ward item on my Slann if I ever end up fighting you. :D

aakurtz
16-12-2005, 05:11
I like taking a casket cause it makes the enemy hold on to dice and scrolls to stop it, which allows your other spells to get off. I dont really count on the casket going off, but i do count on it sucking up a scroll or 3 dice each turn.

About the lizardmen and the casket. Lizardmen LD is like 7 or something, but thats pretty good when your rolling 3D6 and dropping the highest. But the casket doesnt care about that 3D6 garbage! You just roll 2D6+2 and start the soul eating. Its nice to kill suarus warriors and stegadons like they were orcs.

Morph
16-12-2005, 08:31
I like taking a casket cause it makes the enemy hold on to dice and scrolls to stop it, which allows your other spells to get off. I dont really count on the casket going off, but i do count on it sucking up a scroll or 3 dice each turn.

About the lizardmen and the casket. Lizardmen LD is like 7 or something, but thats pretty good when your rolling 3D6 and dropping the highest. But the casket doesnt care about that 3D6 garbage! You just roll 2D6+2 and start the soul eating. Its nice to kill suarus warriors and stegadons like they were orcs.

Hmmm... handy against skinks and salamanders too. Only leadership 5, and being skirmishers they have all round vision. Saurus are Ld 8, even with a hero/lord. So unless you've got a Slaan boosting to Ld 9 on average you're doing a wound on each unit.

Not shabby. I might look into trying one out in a few games.

zendral
16-12-2005, 18:19
Sweetness thanks agin guys, tomb kings it is then. How about tomb guard? anybody use them?, and whats the general consensus on "it came from below" with bugs and scorpion?

AllTheWayUlthwe
16-12-2005, 18:33
Scorpions and Swarms will save you so many times. It is great dropping a marker right nexto to a couple of warmachines or right in the path of a cavalry unit to disrupt thier charge or taking out that warmachine.

Personally I LOVE Tomb Guard. I know that there is a strong anti Tomb Guard feeling out there but htey rock. They are tough and can dish out the punishment. THey have magical weapons that kill those ethereal creatures and killing blow the odd character or two. I ALWAYS take two units of 15 and I equip one with the Banner of the Undying Legion and the other with the Icon of Rakaph. With the Icon, there is nothing greater than the look on an opponents face when he sees my unit do a 180 and charge the flanking unit that was trying to flank me. BTW NEVER use the Icon until you have to. Keep your opponent in the dark as to what the unit has until you use it. It is so CLASSIC! I know that you can use the Icon each turn but don't until you have to.

adreal
17-12-2005, 05:07
Tomb Guard are a strong unit, no doubt about it, and if you have spare chariot riders you can use them as cheaper tomb guard to fill out some of the ranks.

also remember unlike VC, you can raise any dead tomb guard, so they are better in that respect too