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vinny t
29-03-2009, 16:19
I have played this list a couple of times and my most recent game dissolved on turn 2. Due to the obliteration of an entire 20 strong Greatsword unit with lord with 2 rounds of magic. Now, I know that daemons are generally accepted as a strong (some may say too strong;);)) army. But would you downright refuse to play this list?

Hearld of Tzeentch with MoS, Spellbreaker and Battle Standard
Hearld of Tzeentch with MoS on Chariot
Hearld of Tzeentch with MoS
Hearld of Tzeentch with MoS
19 Horrors with full command and IoS
19 Horrors with full command
19 Horrors with full command
10 Horrors with IoS
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
4 Flamers
4 Flamers

17 PD
10 DD

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-03-2009, 16:26
Not really playing any Warhammer at the moment, but I have to say that list would not inspire me to pick it up.

I think doing a single god list (in only using units typically associated with any of the gods) just leads to boring armies and this one looks to be no exception. That Tzeentch have also been assigned possibly the most complained about attributes in the game doesn't help (high magic/ shooting and flying).
I'm all for single god lists, but you would get a much more interesting army by taking some of the other units and modelling them to fit the theme of any of the gods.

I'd play it if a friend said "hey, I want to try this out, want to give me a game", but on a regular basis, probably not, no.

Makarion
29-03-2009, 16:59
I'd only play that if I could custom-build an army to deal with it. And it'd have lots of MR, you can bet on that. Otherwise. it's just a waste of my time on a weekend.

Ward.
29-03-2009, 17:03
The fact that you felt you need to ask would make me pretty skeptical.

theunwantedbeing
29-03-2009, 17:04
It's beatable.
An army with a reasonable amount of firepower can decimate a lot of the list quickly, then they need to deal with your stuff in combat, which isnt overly tricky.

Magic isnt too great an issue as your spells are of random damage.
A lot of dice perhaps, but random damage so that takes the edge off it a lot.

I wouldn't need to tailor my list to face you.
The basic battleplan would be to send my heavy hitters straight for you, you now have to deal with them before they hit you, as horrors are going to lose a fight vs them.
I'll be whittling away at the support units too with my shooting.
I also have a handful of faster units that are perfectly capable of running into your troops and killing them.

Your main abilities are the amount of spells you can throw.(about 8 a turn with 2 dice)
And the flamers, as flamers are both good at shooting and fighting (ws2 isnt rubbish when your st5 with 2 attacks)

You have the huge weakness of being crappy in combat and not being able to run away from charges.
It looks scary on paper, in practice, it wont be so bad.

Desert Rain
29-03-2009, 17:08
I would play it if I had known that I would face it in advance, so I can tailor my list against it.

Urgat
29-03-2009, 17:24
I would play it if I had known that I would face it in advance, so I can tailor my list against it.
Same here. But only once I figure. I'm playing Warhammer to try some tactics, not to see if I can roll high enough on dispels to win.

Roxors45
29-03-2009, 17:41
I HAVE played against that list and beat it with lizzies. Then again that's what lizardmen are for right? Beating demons?

selone
29-03-2009, 17:57
I'd play it. What's MoS?

Kerill
29-03-2009, 18:33
Master of sorcery

I used to play pure Tzeentch daemons and this list isn't all that scary as it goes. 26 horrors is a much better number and means the more your opponent invests in expensive elites, the faster their army dies.

Not fun for either player though.

phoenixlaw
29-03-2009, 18:39
High elves Dragon armour heavy would be funny against this list.

Leogun_91
29-03-2009, 20:09
Aye Id see what it can do against 8DD (one stolen from you) +3to dispell and MR on most units, my dwarfs could enyoy that and that is actually hardly even tailoring (I usually have loads of magic defense).

mikepm07
29-03-2009, 20:29
Every day there's another "is my demons list overpowered" ... "would you play with against Demons if I did this" "How can I make this Daemons list fair" ... blah blah blah

Seriously... you guys know the answers to these questions. Stop trying to get validation through the few holdouts who think Daemons are in some way fair or not significantly better than most of the WHFB armies. You play an army that will be successful simply because of the fact that you chose that army. That's just something you have to live with when you select the best army to play with.

fubukii
29-03-2009, 21:03
how would i beat this list with my dark elves?

id just take the ring of hotek and be like game over.

vinny t
29-03-2009, 21:17
Haha thanks for the quick responces. My goal was to make a cheap (using spore mines as horrors), competitive, and mono Tzeentch army. I have always liked Tzeentch and Khorne and I have a Khorne army so I was making a Tzeentch one for a paint and play so I could combine them. If everyone thinks my list is "stupid" how should I tone it down to make it fun to play against with my 3 criteria?

SuperArchMegalon
29-03-2009, 21:46
how would i beat this list with my dark elves?

id just take the ring of hotek and be like game over.

Oh, Ring of Hotek...

If only you were available to every army.

Now that I think about it maybe GW plans on giving every army a super anti-magic item to deal with the magic spam that has built up over the last few books. Do Lizzies have one?

phoenixlaw
29-03-2009, 21:49
Lizzies have the banner of 'all wizards are stupid' and also the choose a wizard - he must discard all 6es

SuperArchMegalon
29-03-2009, 21:58
Ah yes, I've read about those.

To TC: Think of the polarizing effect on the game your list has. You are taking Psychology, shooting, and magic out of your opponent's list of possibilities. He has to catch you in a bad CC, and in order to do that he has to make it through the flyers and skirmishers.

I'd play you, but I'd only want to fight that particular list once. Even then I wouldn't even bother with my Ogres, I'd use my Dwarfs.

Makarion
29-03-2009, 22:17
I'd enjoy playing that with a Drycha list now I think of it, and not deploy until turn 6. That should net me a draw for sure. The first 5 turns I'd spend explaining why the daemon book is an aberration. Hopefully, that will stop such things from ever appearing near me again.

slingersam
29-03-2009, 22:26
I would vs that list. I have come to realize that fantasy
is really balanced (except for the odd few). Remember
you get into fantasy to join a game with a little bit more
tactics. The game in general is meant to be harder. I look
at the list. I see it's weaknesses: weak CC abilities, no
Combat resolution, that means higher damage from crumble.
Only dominates in the magic phase.

Remember in fantasy you have to do a little bit of thinking
and maneuvering to win battles otherwise this would be
an mid-evil game of 40k.

O&G'sRule
29-03-2009, 22:36
Lizzies have the banner of 'all wizards are stupid' and also the choose a wizard - he must discard all 6es

And the mirror shield that fires your spell back at you

SuperArchMegalon
29-03-2009, 22:44
Remember in fantasy you have to do a little bit of thinking
and maneuvering to win battles otherwise this would be
an mid-evil game of 40k.

Amen to that. This should be considered even when writing an army list.

ScalySkin
29-03-2009, 23:26
What would really be funny with my lizzies against this list:

4 EoTGs, one takes mirror shield (all magic missiles reflected back to the caster), one takes diadem of power (total dispel dice would be 12), join them all to a unit of saurus cavalry with plaque of dominion (all enemy casters within 18" must take stupidity test) and then just march at the Daemons with the 5+ ward versus missiles, magic missile all getting reflected back to the caster and very high toughness and armor if any area of effect damage gets through. When in range there would be 4D6+4 STR6 impact hits from the charge, but the really funny thing would be 4D6 STR 4 hits per units within range of the burning alignment, this damage would be dealt in the magic phase and can not be dispelled. What would 2 ranks with a banner and around 50 unit strength do to an instability test? Maybe I should throw a skink chief bsb in there as well :) The total casting dice of this list would be 14 with all spells costing -1 to cast until the EoTGs get within burning alignment range, so I could still have an effective magic phase as well.

I would not normally field a list like that, but against the list in this thread I would not feel guilty fielding the 4 EoTGs.

slingersam
29-03-2009, 23:34
What would really be funny with my lizzies against this list:

4 EoTGs, one takes mirror shield (all magic missiles reflected back to the caster), one takes diadem of power (total dispel dice would be 12), join them all to a unit of saurus cavalry with plaque of dominion (all enemy casters within 18" must take stupidity test) and then just march at the Daemons with the 5+ ward versus missiles, magic missile all getting reflected back to the caster and very high toughness and armor if any area of effect damage gets through. When in range there would be 4D6+4 STR6 impact hits from the charge, but the really funny thing would be 4D6 STR 4 hits per units within range of the burning alignment, this damage would be dealt in the magic phase and can not be dispelled. What would 2 ranks with a banner and around 50 unit strength do to an instability test? Maybe I should throw a skink chief bsb in there as well :) The total casting dice of this list would be 14 with all spells costing -1 to cast until the EoTGs get within burning alignment range, so I could still have an effective magic phase as well.

I would not normally field a list like that, but against the list in this thread I would not feel guilty fielding the 4 EoTGs.

Ya but this is considered list tailoring, which in the end becomes a game
of list vs list, not General vs General.

kylek2235
29-03-2009, 23:38
Haha thanks for the quick responces. My goal was to make a cheap (using spore mines as horrors), competitive, and mono Tzeentch army. I have always liked Tzeentch and Khorne and I have a Khorne army so I was making a Tzeentch one for a paint and play so I could combine them. If everyone thinks my list is "stupid" how should I tone it down to make it fun to play against with my 3 criteria?

You won't be able to acheive that. The Daemon list is not normally condusive towards your opponent having fun, and Tzeentch gunlines even less so (statement on gunlines, not on the "unbeatable" nature of the army). There isn't a way you can make an all Tzeentch army without making it a gunline either.

This is the standard answer to every "why doesn't my opponent like playing my Daemon army?" question. If this is the army you want, go for it, but the reality is that everyone will hate you.

Dai-Mongar
29-03-2009, 23:45
Ahh... remember the days when everyone was complaining about Bretonnians being overpowered? :rolleyes:
"Brets are too good!"
"Try some new tactics."
"But they don't have to, why should I?"
And now it's the Daemons' turn. Just wait until the next "overpowered" list comes out and everybody's too busy ragging on it to care if you play Daemons.

Talonz
30-03-2009, 00:46
Speaking as a daemons player...booooooring!

You purposefuly pushed magic and shooting to the max, along with harrasment flyers that also do non close combat damage, and you honestly expect to have a good game?

No.

TrojanWolf
30-03-2009, 01:08
I would. Winning or losing is a detail for me.

I suppose playing a Tzeentch heavy WoC list does that though.

W0lf
30-03-2009, 01:15
Id play it.

Id likely lose as i dont tailor and that list takes as much skill as not rolling 1's to win with.

omgadinosaur
30-03-2009, 01:17
I think i'd just send a stardragon in with a prince in dragon armor and then laugh my head off.

W0lf
30-03-2009, 01:27
untill he gets killed to combat res...

EvC
30-03-2009, 01:34
I'd play against it if you give me 20 for my time.

vinny t
30-03-2009, 01:37
Haha this is rediculous. I know this is a "cheezyyy" list. I know that 4 EoTG would destroy it. I know Ring of Hotek would beat it. I know all of this after the first 7 posts. That's why I would like to know ways to make it worse. I don't like winning by not rolling ones as much as any other guy. I played daemons last edition and am playing them this edition too and would like to have fun playing Warhammer.

@ EvC ..........................thanks, now some advice would be apprecated.

I deliberately didn't take a Greater Daemon because those are usually called cheese. So do you think I should?

W0lf
30-03-2009, 01:39
Definatly.

A lord of change is NOT cheese... unless its Kairous then some people complain.

EvC
30-03-2009, 01:54
@ EvC ..........................thanks, now some advice would be apprecated.

I deliberately didn't take a Greater Daemon because those are usually called cheese. So do you think I should?

Good thing advice is free. Take a Daemon Prince if you want to make it soft and pleasantly surprise opponents. Also don't double up on any gifts, as that's a bit whiffy. Sorry to say it's hard to make a pure Tzeentch Daemon army that isn't a royal bore to play against with a normal force.

It really isn't the worst possible, of course. I played against a similar 19PD army, now that was ridiculous (And I ended up ahead by 100 points at the end despite awful dice).

W0lf
30-03-2009, 02:11
Sorry to say it's hard to make a pure Tzeentch Daemon army that isn't a royal bore to play against with a normal force.

Pure reason i dont own a Tzeentch Daemons army.

Stupid GW designers.

Zachary
30-03-2009, 02:12
To beat most magic heavy armies you COULD just use flyers right? fly in behind cover then charge the next turn. While they are ingaged infantry could move up and KILL!

SuperArchMegalon
30-03-2009, 02:20
I'm sorry to say TC, but "Tzeentch Daemons" is a poorly designed "list". Look at what you have: 3 unit types, and 1 character type (no diversity). There is loads of magic and no CC. Plenty of ways to stay away from CC, and no real reason to get there.

I understand liking the mythos behind Tzeentch, but at this point in time Tz Daemons are NOT suited for friendly or fun games. It's just the way it is. You either have to accept it or choose a different army.

fubukii
30-03-2009, 03:29
its a shame i have over 150 horrors, and if i ever field a mono tzeentchian force people are upset :( ( i like mono tz, have had them for some time)

EvC
30-03-2009, 13:14
Again, ever tried to do so with a Daemon Prince?

There are options to make the force weaker, hell, you could just turn up for a game with fewer points for a better challenge, but I rarely see Daemon players bother...

Cambion Daystar
30-03-2009, 15:32
I wouldn't even bother with my Empire. Would have lost probably everything by the time we get to turn 3.

Nerhesi
30-03-2009, 18:30
I think i'd just send a stardragon in with a prince in dragon armor and then laugh my head off.

Come on wooolfy....

It's all about 5 Dragon princes + IWIN banner.

Demon static max of 5 vs your static of 2 + d6 + kills? ;p

And we're talking horrors here! Woooo! Eleven steeds having a field day! ;p

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2009, 19:49
I wouldn't even bother with my Empire. Would have lost probably everything by the time we get to turn 3.

Out of curiosity, what is your empire army?

W0lf
31-03-2009, 00:18
Come on wooolfy....

It's all about 5 Dragon princes + IWIN banner.

Didnt i see 3 heralds with master of sorcery?

Break the standard with metal magic ;)

fubukii
31-03-2009, 04:18
iwin banner is the banner of the world dragon, you cant break it because the entire unit is imune to magic spells, therefore the spell law of gold will not have any effect, nor will vauls unmaking, the normal dp unit that uses it tho is

9 dp, champ, skeinsilver, musician, banner (then either banner of ellyrion, or lion banner, or banner of sorc, or warbanner)
noble bsb - banner of world dragon.

orkz222
31-03-2009, 06:06
yes, why not?

nosferatu1001
31-03-2009, 12:36
Oddly saw a similar list, minus flamers and with only 3 heralds (but a thirster instead, with some doggies) at Devourer.

Thanks to 1 lucky roll (steg staying alive to kill the thirster next turn) I ended up with a massacre - had 2 engines, 2 krox units and cavalry with the "wizards are stupid banner" - this effectively shut the magic phase down, and after marching up with 2 stegs plus krox i was in combat turn 3 (had a diversion) further shutting the phase down.

Burning alignment is D6 S5 against daemons, but the 4+ ward is annoying - can make them very resilient. Luckily every unit that wasn't skinks was immune to fear :)

W0lf
31-03-2009, 13:08
iwin banner is the banner of the world dragon

but that does nothing against Tzeentch daemons anyway? They all have fire based attacks.

I was assuming battle banner to break through the static combat res becoz tbh i cant see princes consistantly winning combat against horrors at S3.

Edit
31-03-2009, 14:36
my skaven all-comers list would take it on, sure we would die in droves as we run at you from all angles...but we do that against everyone, once you are used to sacraficing units to accomplish your goals you see alot of options open up :)

EvC
31-03-2009, 16:05
but that does nothing against Tzeentch daemons anyway? They all have fire based attacks.

Bolt of Change is non-flaming, and still lethal. The Heralds can just take non-flaming magic to get around it anyway, three Uranon's Thunderbolt per turn? Nasty.

Still, Battle Banner probably better. Got to laugh at your suggestion that the three Heralds all take Metal magic... against an army that is mostly immune to flaming attacks.

fubukii
01-04-2009, 14:36
but that does nothing against Tzeentch daemons anyway? They all have fire based attacks.

I was assuming battle banner to break through the static combat res becoz tbh i cant see princes consistantly winning combat against horrors at S3.

true their default spell is indeed flaming, but bolt of change and gift of chaos are not. In additon MOS heralds can pick any lore. HEavens is a ok choice vs dragon princes, as is the lore of beasts (beast cowers is a game winner).

PARTYCHICORITA
01-04-2009, 15:04
I have played this list a couple of times and my most recent game dissolved on turn 2. Due to the obliteration of an entire 20 strong Greatsword unit with lord with 2 rounds of magic. Now, I know that daemons are generally accepted as a strong (some may say too strong;);)) army. But would you downright refuse to play this list?

Hearld of Tzeentch with MoS, Spellbreaker and Battle Standard
Hearld of Tzeentch with MoS on Chariot
Hearld of Tzeentch with MoS
Hearld of Tzeentch with MoS
19 Horrors with full command and IoS
19 Horrors with full command
19 Horrors with full command
10 Horrors with IoS
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
4 Flamers
4 Flamers

17 PD
10 DD

It's by far not the best monotzeench list that can be done but i wouldn't play it. It's certainly beatable but i wouldn't enjoy a game like that.

Deetwo
01-04-2009, 15:33
Mmmm.. 4 Siren Song would be fun against that :)

Lazarus15
01-04-2009, 18:45
That is a fine list.

Banner of the World Dragon ignores ALL spell effects, friend or foe.

Pros:
The tactics come in for your deployment, moving your units into a position where they can support each other if need be, but don't get destroyed and over run into other units.
Magic phase is obviously your bread and butter, so the tactics there come from target selection and what is the most dangerous thing to you. The book lores are pretty danged good. People discount them for reasons I can't quite explain, but take a good hard look at them again, because they do have some good things in there.
Shooting won't be too bad. To be able to survive with a delicate list like this you need to be able to put screamers where they can march block and still do their thing, but they are only T3, 1W. They die to stiff breeze.

Cons:
People complain about one phase lists, but ignore them. I play a themed tzeentch army, and once you show people what to kill and in what order, they stop complaining alot. I beat my own daemon army with my tk's chariot army. If the Tk's can do it, most other armies can sure as hell do it.

You units are smaller, which is fine, but people usually kill the herald in the fist round of combat due to allocation of attacks. Don't expect your units to live too much longer past that point.

High elves and on have pretty good ways of dealing with magic so things like the Vortex shard, Loremasters Cloak, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armor, cube of darkness, EOTG, Magic Resistance (D. Elfs), The Puppet and such, and it goes on....these are going to be your nemesis. I for one and 1 and 3 against Vampires. I can kill the army all day long, but I can never kill enough lol.

The thing that is going to scare the daylights out of you are things like skinks and Ancient Stegadons. A crap load of attacks decimates the offensive ability of horrors.

Hope this helps.

Master Stark
01-04-2009, 22:48
I would happily play against this list. And I would use this list to face it:

Slann
- +1 dice to cast attempts
- Enemy wizard within 24" must discard 6's when casting
- Magic resistance (3)
- Dispell Scroll
- Dispell Scroll


Level 2 priest
- Diadem of Power
- Dispell Scroll
- Ancient Stegadon with EotG

Level 2 priest
- Dispell Scroll
- Dispell Scroll
- Ancient Stegadon with EotG

16 Temple Guard
- Full Command

20 Saurus Warriors
- Spears
- Full Command

2 x 10 Skink Skirmishers

4 Kroxigors

And then we'd just see who got sick of our games first.


Ya but this is considered list tailoring, which in the end becomes a game
of list vs list, not General vs General.

As soon as someone brings a list like the OPs daemons to the table, they have made it a list vs list game. The only choice is whether to play or not.