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Ex-guest
14-12-2005, 08:59
Dodge Saves – Some creatures in the 41st millennium are so inhumanly quick that they are capable of using their super fast reflexes and senses to dodge incoming blows or even bullets.

Any model with a base Initiative characteristic of 6 or more on its profile has the chance to make a Dodge save against any attack. This save is in addition to any Armour (but not Invulnerable) save(s) the model may have. The dodge save is used first before armour or any other ‘saves’ e.g. a save due to Bionics etc.
A model with an Initiative of 6 has a 6+ Dodge save
A model with an Initiative of 7 has a 5+ Dodge save
A model with an Initiative of 8 or more has a 4+ Dodge save

A Dodge save may not be ignored by any weapon or attack unless specified by the particular weapon that it ignores ‘Dodge Saves’. Even weapons that ignore armour or Invulnerable saves’ may not ignore a Dodge save.

Grenade Throwing

Grenades may be thrown in the shooting phase instead of shooting a unit’s weapons.
The models must have either have grenades on their relative profiles in their Army List Entry or have purchased them from their relevant Army List Entry.
The distance that grenades maybe thrown is determined by the twice the models base strength, so a model that is Str. 3 has a 6” throwing distance. Each model may throw one grenade of one type i.e. one grenade total each!!! All grenades cause Pinning.
Roll to hit as normal using models BS. The entire unit throws grenades not just select models.
Fumble: If any model rolls a 1 to hit then that model has stuffed up and fumbled the grenade. Roll a D6 and consult this table:

1-2: Premature Detonation or “he held the Grenade too long”. Grenade explodes in models hand. Resolve hit against own squad. Casualties are chosen by owning player.
3-5: Roll the scatter dice, which direction shown the grenade will land D6” from throwing model and then work out effects if necessary.
6: Lucky hit. Hits the enemy units as normal, casualties are chosen by opposing player (the player throwing the grenades).

Note: Melta Bombs may not be thrown!!!
Frag Grenades: Str. 4 AP 6 Notes: Blast
Plasma Grenades: Str. 4 AP 4 Notes: Blast
Krak Grenades: Str 6 AP 1 Notes: can only throw half distance (normal Str of Model)
Photon Grenades: Str. 0 AP 0
Notes: Target unit/model if hit by at least one Photon Grenade, must immediately take a pinning test. It does not have to cause a wound for this to happen.

Firefight

Sometimes rather than finishing opponents in hand to hand combat some soldiers/militia/mercenaries/gribblies may choose instead of Charging in the assault phase they may issue a Firefight against an opposing model/unit instead.

1. First declare that your model/unit(s) is attempting to Firefight, you may only issue a Firefight if the target is within charging distance (6”). Any units within charging distance may fire upon the unit. You may also alternatively initiate a firefight after an enemy unit has failed a morale test in close combat and is falling back or has falled back into within 6” of the firefighting unit.
2. Firefight is carried out exactly like as if you were shooting in the Shooting Phase. As long as a target is within 6” it may be fired upon by any unit in range. The only difference is both sides shoot, not just one; attacking order is determined by Initiative. Higher Initiative models fire before lower Initiative Models.
3. Weapons are subject to their normal rules for firing, e.g. Heavy weapons may not shoot if you moved during the movement phase etc.
4. A unit that is being targeted by more than one unit/model may split its fire between multiple units/models as long as their all within 6”. E.g. half the unit may fire at one attacking unit the other half fires on the other unit or whatever.
5. The Firefightee (the unit being targeted) instead of shooting they may Take Cover. Conferring +1 to all cover saves, and receive a 6+ cover save in the open.
6. The Firefighter may not take cover, but if equipped may throw grenades, if equipped, (see: Additional rules: Grenade throwing) instead of shooting. The Firefightees lose any cover save(s) against damage from grenades.



Any ideas guys?????????

TheSonOfAbbadon
14-12-2005, 14:44
Yeah, go out and re-price everything now because they all have new point values.

Ex-guest
15-12-2005, 01:30
Now now their just ideas. New point values? The Dodge saves will simply make the Dark Eldar commanders a little more survivable (something which they need), and remember you normally pay for grenades any way and most units get access anyway. Besides you can only shoot OR throw not both.

TheSonOfAbbadon
15-12-2005, 16:33
You may pay for grenades, but with these new [and rather stupid] rules change the values for the grenades, and the dodge saves change the values for many models.

RampagingRavener
15-12-2005, 17:37
I like the dodge save idea, though some models might have to have them adjusted a little (Assasins are small and quick, their 4+ invuln save could just be converted into a 4+ dodge save, and I don't see a broodlord being able to dodge due it's size, I dont think it would get any dodge save or mabye -1 to it).

The grenade throwing should have its strenghts altered like this:
Frag: st3 ap-
Plasma: st4 ap6
Krak: st5 ap5

And grenade fumbles should just hit your own unit as normal.

Firefight I don't have time to read yet, will comment back later.

Helicon_One
15-12-2005, 18:23
I don't like rules for grenade throwing in open battlefields, for the simple reason that messing around with a grenade when people are screaming and guns are roaring and shrapnel is pinging off your armour is too much trouble when you have a perfectly good gun you can just point and shoot with. Grenades are useful for clearing out foxholes or rooms in buildings, or making people keep their heads down, not for straightforward killing.

Tim

IncubiLord
15-12-2005, 19:49
@tSoA - not liking the idea doesn't make it stupid, and those of us who played 2ed remember rules for throwing grenades. Including a rather nasty Vortex Grenade...
@Ex-guest - my shadow field makes an Archite plenty survivable. :evilgrin:
I think the firefight rules punish close combat troops too much. If you're going to do this, the target unit should have the option to counter-charge.
Consider that the rules presented would allow an IG command squad to roll up to a CC Carnifex and then fire 4 meltaguns twice with the Bug player getting no retaliation. Likewise with any assault unit that doesn't have a pistol.
True, this is mostly the Tyranids, but I think allowing anybody to walk up to my practically unarmored Dark Eldar and fire their assault/rapid fire weapons twice is rather harsh, even if I do get to shoot back with my amazing(ly pathetic) splinter pistols.
Also, this has a big potential for abuse with anti-tank units. My reavers couldn't bust a tank in CC, but I'll take another 2 shots from their blasters and kill it in the CC Phase.

Angelripper
15-12-2005, 20:21
I think throwing grenades and the Dodge Save are pretty Cool. the Firefight is really unbalanced. Just Imagine what the new Vespids might do with your SM Squad or what Firewarriors would do to Nids :D . Nice but too unbalanced IMO

Helicon_One
15-12-2005, 20:30
Helicon_One: Sure, but if we're going to be like that about it, then what's up with pistols?

Because models with pistols and bloody great big swords and axes look COOL. The impracticality of grenade use in open battlefields is one thing, but 40K imagery is full of troops yelling and blazing away on full auto, not entire squads shouldering their lasguns and stood fiddling with frag grenades.

One thing that felt silly about 2nd Ed when when grenades were more useful than the trooper's rifle, and so whole units would run forward and throw them rather than shoot, which was neither realistic or cool (and 40K should at least aim to be one or the other of those).

Tim

IncubiLord
15-12-2005, 20:44
Anybody else remember a story about a space wolf shoving a krak grenade down a Carnifex's mouth? A ravener swallowing some poor guardsman whole?... (endless references to cool bits of fluff follow)
40K fluff is full of cool things that just don't happen in the game.

Helicon_One
15-12-2005, 22:24
Anybody else remember a story about a space wolf shoving a krak grenade down a Carnifex's mouth?

That was Ragnar, and it was in the 2nd Ed SW Codex.


A ravener swallowing some poor guardsman whole?.

In other words the Ravener wounded, and the guardsman failed his save.

But anyway. I've seen no fluff where a squad run up to an enemy unit standing in the open before them, stop, shoulder their lasguns, detach grenades from their belts, pull the pins and throw them as one, instead of shooting. Why? Because it would be crap, and any unit dumb enough to try it would be mown down or assaulted.

And, to return to my original point, I'm afraid suggestions for grenade throwing in 40K inevitably turn into a needlessly fiddly and complex method of making enemy models fall over and die, which is an effect that can be achieved with those perfectly good guns your models are carrying around.

Tim

Ex-guest
16-12-2005, 01:20
Firstly i want to point out that these are initial ideas they will need refining, thats why i posted them in the first place.

Secondly, the dodge saves are simply and addition in the context that really fast reflexes can be incorporated beyond Init. in CC. We could give some models, such as the suggested Assassins, the save instead to make them more viable.

Thirdly, the grenades are an option open to the player so squads may instead of shooting say flashlights (lasguns) against Space Marines, next to useless, throw a few Krak Grenades instead, Much more effective :D. makes standard units a bit more flexible thats all.

Finnaly the Firefight rules ae again give players an option. Especially if the unit in question is poor in CC, eg Tau Fire warriors. The draw back is of course the enemy gets to shoot back. If anything i might add a Consolidation move into the winner of the firefight. The other thing i also like about the idea behind firefight means the game doesn't have to get bogged down in drawn out close combat. Besides if your units do better in CC than they can shoot, why not charge? However i will attempt to further balance out the rules for FF, I still haven't dealt with causing Morale checks yet!!!

IncubiLord
16-12-2005, 04:53
Don't take it too hard Ex. Some people would rather tear your idea to bits than offer a helpful suggestion.

I would consider limiting dodge saves to characters in CC. You don't want to transform whole units of already-dangerous killing machines into something worse. I'd also consider having it improve every 2 points above 5. (6-7=6+, 8-9=5+, 10=4+) this makes high-initiative characters slightly more durable, but has very little overall effect. Also, since most armies buy their hero an invulnerable save, it will rarely come up. It allows a hero that can't buy an invulnerable save to have a shot against something that ignores armor, and it gives those that can't buy armor a chance against things that ignore invulnerable saves.

Grenade throwing would be easier if it used the "gets hot" rule instead of a misfire chart, and I would have a lone model use the blast marker or a unit use the ord. blast for the squad. Krak would still be like shooting.

I can't help much with firefight, it's too big a change. Maybe allow any unit to simply fire their guns in place of CC attacks, like the ork warbikes, but I'm in favor of limiting that to pistols after the first round.

Helicon_One
16-12-2005, 17:28
So then if waving swords around is cool, why not throwing grenades? Oh, yeah, I forgot that it's written in the Codex Astartes...;)

Take it up with GW, it's their imagery.

Tim

RampagingRavener
16-12-2005, 18:53
Ok, finally got a look at the firefight:

It seems woefully overpowered. Lets imagine that a unit of lightish assault infantry, lets say orks, manages to get up to the tau line, but finds itself 7" away, so cannot assault.

In the Tau turn, a unit of firewarriors moves forward and shoots at them. Ok, not a big problem, there are a few Orks left to assault next turn. Then, in the assault phase, the tau move forward and shoot at them again wiping out the rest of the squad.

It's an intresting idea, and I can see the motivation behind it, but it seems to give shooty armies an unfair advantage in the assault phase, when an assault army will get no equivelent bonus in the shooting phase.

Gwedd
17-12-2005, 05:00
Comrades,

Okay, here's a couple of ideas completely unrelated to the previous suggestions.

1.) Variable movement, or Follow the Leader!
A unit (any unit) moves normally until it takes fire. Once a unit (any unit) is targeted and fired at, regardless of whether any hits were scored, it must pass a leadership test in order to move fully. If it failes the test, then it moves 1d6 inches for that turn. This represents the confusion of being under fire while attempting to maneuver on the battlefield. Units with a 12" movement rate would move 2D6, etc.

2.) Limited ammunition. Each unit rolls for it's ammunition prior to the game. You get 1D6+1 for each unit. That means you will always have 1 full magazine in the weapon, plus 1 spare. Beyond that, you may or may not have a full 6 turns of fire available. This makes for interesting situations where difficult choices must be made as to whether to fire or not, etc. It's especially interesting for the defender. To keep it above board, just set down a bingo marker for each turn of fire beside the unit. When it fires, a marker is discarded. Alternatley, you just place a number of boxes equal to the number of turns of fire a unit has on it's list, and check off the box when you use it up.

That's all for now. I've got more, but the problem with adding rules for grenades, etc, is that it runs the risk of slowing down the game. W40K is a game of small unit combat, not a skirmish game. For more rules-heavy or complex, consider Necromunda or even Inquisitor and just restrict each player to a couple of squads.

Respects,

Gwedd

IncubiLord
17-12-2005, 19:46
Actually, those could be really fun in special missions.
They would slow the game, however, and it already takes hours to play a stand-alone game.
As for grenades, I thought that the limits I suggested would make it take about the same time as shooting normal weapons.