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View Full Version : Dealing with a Cheese Caller.



djinn8
29-03-2009, 21:31
I have this friend who is pretty much the only guy who I play 40K with, he is however a huge cheese caller and its ruining the game for me. The problem is it upsets him that my IG won't let his assault troops get stuck into the line and moans that Guard are broken because they have to many guns. I mean what the hell does he want me to do? Stop shooting and let him close with his units of choppy death?

Most games start by setting up and then a twenty minuet whine about how unfair the game is going to be because of how large my army is, how many guns there are, how many tanks there are, etc. I had to give him an extra unit just to shut him up on one occasion.

When he loses his first casualty he start complaining about it being the end of the world and how he's not playing to win anymore and just playing to see how well his underdog force can manage against my indomitable Guardsmen. Even when he's winning and CSM are ripping through my lines he keeps up this doom and gloom "there's no way I can win" attitude. Post game chat is generally him going on about how broken the Chaos Codex is and threatening to take the infamous 9 obliterator, double lash, nurgle list of doom since a Guard army with 9 heavy bolter in it is tantamount to cheating.:rolleyes:

It wouldn't be so bad except of the 4 games we've played he's won 2 and drawn 1

Does anyone else have to play with with someone like this?

Bah... sorry for the rant, it's just ruining the gaming side of the hobby for me. I'd like to find other people to play against but I'm not sure where to find them. I have a local store, but the thought of gaming in a GW store seems pretty unnappealing. What other options do I have?

invinciblebug
29-03-2009, 21:34
Calling IG overpowered :wtf:.

Dude that's serious.

tuebor
29-03-2009, 21:36
Calling IG overpowered :wtf:.

Dude that's serious.

That's kinda what I thought. Anyone who calls the Guard overpowered (especially in relation to a book like Chaos) doesn't really know what they're talking about. Imagine the tears there would be if he played a good Ork player.

Vaktathi
29-03-2009, 21:37
Tell him to shut the hell up and find a new gaming group. Players like that are more trouble than it's worth.

The current IG codex is far removed in terms of power from the CSM codex. He'll have a lot more to whine about in 5 weeks.

vampires are cool!
29-03-2009, 21:41
Seriously, let him know how much he is bothering you. If he moans about how broken guard are then maybe you could introduce him to more varied senarios and show him how wrong he is. If he's still a tit then jam a car exhaust up his fundement and call it a day.

Lt.Gregor
29-03-2009, 21:41
Does this guy even change his list? Not that I'm saying making a list just to fight IG is good but if His list is having problems with guard what's he going to do about Tau? They've got a better gun line (I play both armies). I think he just has a problem with his own army and is blaming everyone else about it.


Well thought for the day when people are playing the game, "remember it's just a game" or if that does not work for you: "Life sucks then you die"

Gensuke626
29-03-2009, 21:43
I have this friend who is pretty much the only guy who I play 40K with, he is however a huge cheese caller and its ruining the game for me. The problem is it upsets him that my IG won't let his assault troops get stuck into the line and moans that Guard are broken because they have to many guns. I mean what the hell does he want me to do? Stop shooting and let him close with his units of choppy death?

Most games start by setting up and then a twenty minuet whine about how unfair the game is going to be because of how large my army is, how many guns there are, how many tanks there are, etc. I had to give him an extra unit just to shut him up on one occasion.

When he loses his first casualty he start complaining about it being the end of the world and how he's not playing to win anymore and just playing to see how well his underdog force can manage against my indomitable Guardsmen. Even when he's winning and CSM are ripping through my lines he keeps up this doom and gloom "there's no way I can win" attitude. Post game chat is generally him going on about how broken the Chaos Codex is and threatening to take the infamous 9 obliterator, double lash, nurgle list of doom since a Guard army with 9 heavy bolter in it is tantamount to cheating.:rolleyes:

It wouldn't be so bad except of the 4 games we've played he's won 2 and drawn 1

Does anyone else have to play with with someone like this?

Bah... sorry for the rant, it's just ruining the gaming side of the hobby for me. I'd like to find other people to play against but I'm not sure where to find them. I have a local store, but the thought of gaming in a GW store seems pretty unnappealing. What other options do I have?

Your other options are to go to a local GW or other Gaming store and making new friends. Lacking that, Come to Hawaii! We're nice folk and usually when we see massive Guard Gunlines we say "Ooh! Guard! This is Gonna be fun!!"

But there isn't a lot you can do to fix your friend, unless you feel like arguing with him (I enjoy arguing with my friends, but you're not me so I don't know what you're into). I would play a game like usual, but everytime he stops to whine about something I'd stop the game and debate with him about why he's whining.

The game probably wouldn't get past turn 2, but if you're a mediocre debater you should be able to shove his face into some really good points about how, if anything, your guard is underpowered compared to his marines. Continued whining should be met with insults to his masculinity. Like when you kill a Marine and he goes doom and gloom say "Aww, Poor Baby, you lost a Marine...Let me kiss it and make it better...Need me to change your diaper too?" and generally antagonize him.

Edit-@Tuebor. Ooh, Ooh! let me Play him! I'll drop a Wrath of Kan list on his head!!

tuebor
29-03-2009, 21:46
I do have a question that may partially explain why he's having so much trouble against you. How much terrain are you playing with? If you're playing on Planet Nebraska with absolutely no terrain I could see how he'd have issues. In my group we play with about 30-50% of the board covered in terrain of some sort.

Grimmeth
29-03-2009, 21:46
I'd try letting him use your army for a game, either your Guard in general, or your exact list, and you use his - that way he could see that Guard need to use their guns and possibly have a better understanding of the army and it's limitations?

It wouldn't hurt to, if you could, try to branch out into other gaming groups too (for both of you I'd imagine)
Whereabouts are you from? Sheffield? It's a fairly big place, I'd imagine there's bound to be a GW/Gaming group within travelling distance - there may well be a few people on here who you could hook up with for a game or three?

Roguebaron
29-03-2009, 21:47
Just tell him to frak off and make better army choices. He knows what you have, what you use, and he tailors an assult list and whines he can't win. To darn bad, pick something else and try a different list. Sounds more like he's moaning because he can't think of other strategies to use. You shoot lots, he has fast attack choices, tell him to invest in some raptors and bikes. I'd seriously find a new opponent.

unclejimbo827
29-03-2009, 21:49
The obvious thing to do is come bitch about it on the internet instead of talking to him about the problem.

owen matthew
29-03-2009, 21:55
Last year I found a small LGS out in concord, CA, and I played a tournament. I seemed to get along very well with most of the guys there, and I ended up winning. I said MOST, because I had the unfortunate disspleasure of accidentally beating their "golden Boy" who convinced the tournamnet organizer to change the last mission to be intentionally difficult for my army, and pouted when I won the prizes (I split with the second place guy because we had a rules dissagreement). Golden Boy gave me alot of attitude, called my army cheese, and i left.

The next time I went out there for a tournament, he took me aside before the first game and let me know he did not like me or my army, and told me anyone with the nerve to play a nidzilla (i had roughly 1 flyrant, 4 dakka, 2 sniper carns unmodified, 6 x 10 troops of gaunts, 1 HQ warroir brood of 6, 3 single raveners... nothing modified, 1500 points) list must be as much a loser inside as the list is broken. He also let me know he did not want me back if I ever brought that army I would be asked to leave. He does not own the store or run it. So I cut most of the army out so that he liked it, played got second place, and he won with an unballanced list of 2 min troops, max heavy and elites.

I am 30 years old, my time is too valuable to get jerked around by a guy 10 years younger than me. I let the manager know, and I left.

I don't play there anymore.

I would suggest finding a local group or club, dialing in and never looking back.

owen matthew
29-03-2009, 21:58
The game probably wouldn't get past turn 2, but if you're a mediocre debater you should be able to shove his face into some really good points about how, if anything, your guard is underpowered compared to his marines. Continued whining should be met with insults to his masculinity. Like when you kill a Marine and he goes doom and gloom say "Aww, Poor Baby, you lost a Marine...Let me kiss it and make it better...Need me to change your diaper too?" and generally antagonize him.



I wish I read this before I posted my own. Heck I wish I read this before I went to that tournament. Man, I like this so much I may go back, and run these lines on him anyway!

djinn8
29-03-2009, 22:01
That's kinda what I thought. Anyone who calls the Guard overpowered (especially in relation to a book like Chaos) doesn't really know what they're talking about. Imagine the tears there would be if he played a good Ork player.

Thats the second threat he makes "I'm going to have to buy an Ork army to beat you :rolleyes:


Seriously, let him know how much he is bothering you. If he moans about how broken guard are then maybe you could introduce him to more varied senarios and show him how wrong he is. If he's still a tit then jam a car exhaust up his fundement and call it a day.

I've talked to him about it before (he's a reasonable guy when were not playing 40K) and he's admitted to him moaning and promised to stop. He hasn't however.


I do have a question that may partially explain why he's having so much trouble against you. How much terrain are you playing with? If you're playing on Planet Nebraska with absolutely no terrain I could see how he'd have issues. In my group we play with about 30-50% of the board covered in terrain of some sort.

We play on a 6x4 board with about 40% terrain - so its pretty well covered. As the table is at his house he usually set it up as well. We also usually decide on the type of game before playing so we can both tailor our lists. I think I write better lists than he does however as his solution to most things is "give it a 2+ save" which in my eyes is probably the worst thing you can do when your going to be out numbered.


I'd try letting him use your army for a game, either your Guard in general, or your exact list, and you use his - that way he could see that Guard need to use their guns and possibly have a better understanding of the army and it's limitations?

It wouldn't hurt to, if you could, try to branch out into other gaming groups too (for both of you I'd imagine)
Whereabouts are you from? Sheffield? It's a fairly big place, I'd imagine there's bound to be a GW/Gaming group within travelling distance - there may well be a few people on here who you could hook up with for a game or three?

I think the next game we play I'm going to use his Chaos so he can't whine. I don't like the way they play, but what the hell. Problem is if he wins with IG then the whinings just going to get worse. If that happens I'm going to have to suck it up and start going to GW to play.

Gensuke626
29-03-2009, 22:03
Last year I found a small LGS out in concord, CA, and I played a tournament. I seemed to get along very well with most of the guys there, and I ended up winning. I said MOST, because I had the unfortunate disspleasure of accidentally beating their "golden Boy" who convinced the tournamnet organizer to change the last mission to be intentionally difficult for my army, and pouted when I won the prizes (I split with the second place guy because we had a rules dissagreement). Golden Boy gave me alot of attitude, called my army cheese, and i left.

The next time I went out there for a tournament, he took me aside before the first game and let me know he did not like me or my army, and told me anyone with the nerve to play a nidzilla (i had roughly 1 flyrant, 4 dakka, 2 sniper carns unmodified, 6 x 10 troops of gaunts, 1 HQ warroir brood of 6, 3 single raveners... nothing modified, 1500 points) list must be as much a loser inside as the list is broken. He also let me know he did not want me back if I ever brought that army I would be asked to leave. He does not own the store or run it. So I cut most of the army out so that he liked it, played got second place, and he won with an unballanced list of 2 min troops, max heavy and elites.

I am 30 years old, my time is too valuable to get jerked around by a guy 10 years younger than me. I let the manager know, and I left.

I don't play there anymore.

I would suggest finding a local group or club, dialing in and never looking back.

I don't think I would have let him get off the hook so easily...I mean, I'm basically a Veteran at my FLGS, so if anyone comes to complain to me I just tell them to take it up with the manager, who usually tells them to suck it up or go home...But I'm a rather confrontational person, so I think if I had been told that I'm a loser I would have yelled at the top of my lungs so everyone can hear "I'm A Loser? I'm not the one Trying to intimidate other players just to eke out every advantage I can in a Tournament! I'm not the one who can't build a Take All Comers army that can effectively take on Nidzilla and Hordes! I'm Not the One who goes Crying to the Judges everytime I lose! I might be a "loser" for taking a Nidzilla army, but that would make you a..."

Well...I'd finish that sentence here, but I don't want to offend any of my fellow forumites that might be Homosexual. We're mostly friends here, yes?

Vaktathi
29-03-2009, 22:04
Last year I found a small LGS out in concord, CA, and I played a tournament. I seemed to get along very well with most of the guys there, and I ended up winning. I said MOST, because I had the unfortunate disspleasure of accidentally beating their "golden Boy" who convinced the tournamnet organizer to change the last mission to be intentionally difficult for my army, and pouted when I won the prizes (I split with the second place guy because we had a rules dissagreement). Golden Boy gave me alot of attitude, called my army cheese, and i left.

The next time I went out there for a tournament, he took me aside before the first game and let me know he did not like me or my army, and told me anyone with the nerve to play a nidzilla (i had roughly 1 flyrant, 4 dakka, 2 sniper carns unmodified, 6 x 10 troops of gaunts, 1 HQ warroir brood of 6, 3 single raveners... nothing modified, 1500 points) list must be as much a loser inside as the list is broken. He also let me know he did not want me back if I ever brought that army I would be asked to leave. He does not own the store or run it. So I cut most of the army out so that he liked it, played got second place, and he won with an unballanced list of 2 min troops, max heavy and elites.

I am 30 years old, my time is too valuable to get jerked around by a guy 10 years younger than me. I let the manager know, and I left.

I don't play there anymore.

I would suggest finding a local group or club, dialing in and never looking back.

In addition to talking to the store manager about it, I would have opened the conversation he just had with me to the entire playing group there, forcing his position out in the open, and asked to speak with the store owner.

Behavior like that is unacceptable and hurts the store and the hobby, were I the manager I'd have asked the "golden boy" to leave and wait to be asked back.

tuebor
29-03-2009, 22:08
We play on a 6x4 board with about 40% terrain - so its pretty well covered. As the table is at his house he usually set it up as well. We also usually decide on the type of game before playing so we can both tailor our lists. I think I write better lists than he does however as his solution to most things is "give it a 2+ save" which in my eyes is probably the worst thing you can do when your going to be out numbered

So he's just a bad player. Another thing I suggest is perhaps giving him pointers and such during games. When I got my friends into the hobby that's what I did the first half dozen or so games until they had a firm grasp on it and now we're all about 50/50 against on another.

Of course I also second the recommendation to play against him with his Chaos, unless he has an absolutely terrible list, in which case I recommend helping him make a less crappy list.

Gensuke626
29-03-2009, 22:08
@vaktathi - But you and I and it seems most people here, are much more reasonable and enlightened beings than the Tourney Organizers that get complained about.

catsrule23
29-03-2009, 22:11
If you want some games against non-whining opponents and have transport to get there, come to warhammer world on a wednesday night, there's always a game and everyone is friendly.
Hope this Helps

Grand Master Raziel
29-03-2009, 22:22
Here's my take on the matter: while most gamers (of any stripe) are reasonably well adjusted people, hobbies like 40K (or roleplaying, or CCGs, etc) tend to have a larger percentage of social misfits than you'd find in a random sampling of society at large. Such people can invest a little too much of their identity into their army (or character, or deck, etc), and then losing a game becomes more than simply a game with an unsuccessful outcome, but rather an attack on them personally. Then ego steps in, and such players are reluctant to make changes to their army, so they convince themselves that the other guy is doing something that is in some way invalid or unfair, because that insulates them from having to admit to imperfection or mistakes and adjust accordingly.

Dakkabom
29-03-2009, 22:42
I had the same mindset when I played my Orks from the Black Reach Set. Keep in mind I'm still a newb, but my Brother was aligned to the Imperial Guard and I would play through games where I had to do all the movement/assaulting, unless it was his Hellhound revving up the engines to burn all my boyz.

But once you're up in their face, I found it to be very rewarding. Granted it feels kind of frustrating if you were playing a game where you'd take over objectives, because he could just hide in fortified positions and pluck my units with a Basilisk and Grenade Launchers.

@Owen Matthew: Holy ****, that Golden Boy. What an *******. That guy feels like he came right out of a movie. Did you get to talk to the other players about the guy? Do they hate him as much as they should?

owen matthew
29-03-2009, 22:42
Gensuke and Vaktahthi, I like the ways you guys spin it. I wish I was in more control at the point it happened, I was so shocked I was taken aback. I have been playing for 10 years, and no one has ever done that.

I may just go back...

To OP, I think the idea of switching armies is a good one, but it probably will not cut the whinning. He does that because that is his way, not his army's inability.

owen matthew
29-03-2009, 22:51
@Owen Matthew: Holy ****, that Golden Boy. What an *******. That guy feels like he came right out of a movie. Did you get to talk to the other players about the guy? Do they hate him as much as they should?

No, I did'nt bother. I get the sense they love him out there. he organizes games and tournaments for them and I think he recruits and takes care of new players. He just does not like to loose, I think, or get handled in front of his friends/gamers. I can understand the impulse, and how it would not bother him to win under such hollow circumstances, but knowing that makes me feel like I would be the lesser man for fighting with him. Sometime I do not feel so moral, and burning a bridge down sounds like it could feel good... but I never feel comphortable being an a****** to people. Latent catholic guilt, probably.

Its a bent situation. I stayed away for a long time, but I am starting to feel like playing out there again, i did build a pretty good raport with a few guys, and I would hate to dump it for one confused jerk.

massey
29-03-2009, 22:57
Crush him. That is the answer. If he whines, laugh at him. He'll either grow up or cry. Either way, you win. :)

FunkyRatDemon
29-03-2009, 23:21
Tell him to shut the hell up and find a new gaming group. Players like that are more trouble than it's worth.

The current IG codex is far removed in terms of power from the CSM codex. He'll have a lot more to whine about in 5 weeks.

I Concur

Back at home we have a SM player like this, all he does day in+out is say how great the army is and how he never loses...of course he doesn't...he concedes every game!

Unfortunately you'll just have to find others to game with, cause its not worth playing a sour-sport

Codsticker
29-03-2009, 23:46
I may just go back...

Make sure to bring the Nidzilla army when you do.

dblaz3r
29-03-2009, 23:50
It wouldn't be so bad except of the 4 games we've played he's won 2 and drawn 1

So because he's not winning every game you must be a cheesy git. :rolleyes:
You could just tell him that you don't want to play him anymore because it isn't enjoyable for you, and look for other opponents. There's plenty out there.
Or when he starts complaining you could just say "Can we play with our toy soldiers for fun? pew pew."

Neknoh
29-03-2009, 23:54
Indeed, bring the Nidzilla, and if he pulls you into a corner again, ignore him, go straight to the owner and explain that you are being threatened and insulted by one of their regulars and that you just lost any sort of urge to buy something in the store because of him.

Now, on the original topic:

Sounds to me like he likes to win without losing anything, he was essentially led into the "Omg, space marinez are roxx0rz!" piper dance of Games Workshop, and when Chaos was added to the mixture, it became Teh Spiky Marinez.

Just beat him playing guard by building a strong list using the Chaos codex and his models.

kaimarion
30-03-2009, 00:12
Has anyone on here tried taking on guard with a khorne list? It really ain't pleasant especially since buildings can now be destroyed and going through them means difficult terrain tests, the main problem is when you get into CC you have got a good chance of killing everything which then leaves you out in the open to eat las which is rather unfortunate. I do find guard somewhat of a problem because the sheer amount of fire power they can put out which means vehicles don't live too long.
They best way I've found to deal with while using CSM is to use rihnos backed up with things like defilers and oblit so they can draw the fire allowing the CSM to get into CC and not get shot to death.

This would be showing it from the CSM player side :p.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
30-03-2009, 00:28
Point is - chaos codex is not really broken, if you dont use daemon prince and bazillion oblits.

Warforger
30-03-2009, 02:02
Guard having too many guns? I had some test rolls to see Mephiston in combat with 20 man Guard squads, the Guard Squads were always replenished and neither gets the charge, he lost most of his wounds to spychic tests and his last to a Guardsman, in the end he had taken down 280 Guardsman (if he had passed his FNP, he would have made it to 300!) and with BA, depending on the Terrain, I can easily provide meatshields for the man and get into combat, in fact thats exactly what happened to one Guard player I played.

Guard are far from OP'd, if he has trouble with your army, go out and find a even more OP'd army like Nob Biker armies.

Giganthrax
30-03-2009, 02:03
I am 30 years old, my time is too valuable to get jerked around by a guy 10 years younger than me. I let the manager know, and I left.

I don't play there anymore.
Frankly speaking, I would've never given in to a scrub like that. As Gensuke said, you should've gotten into an argument with him as soon as he started calling you names. Even if they threw you out of the store, at least you'd keep your dignity.

The best thing you could've done when he started whining was simply nod, smile at him and then crush him in the battle. When he went on whining, keep nodding, smiling and being like "so, you lost to a loser, eh?" Basically, the entire idea of cheese is ridiculous, which enables you to reply to all of his "arguments" in an intelligent competitive-minded way (for example, if he's like "you only do one same thing over and over" you can be like "so why, if you're such a great player and I'm such a loser cheeser, you can't defeat that one move that I keep doing over and over again?").

TBH, the fact that you changed your list to please an a$$hole scrub like that pretty much makes you look like... well... a pu$$y. The scrub and the guys at that club probably think all sorts of bad things about you. If I were you I wouldn't go back to that club unless you feel you got something to prove - you're likely to get just more bad experiences.

Frontier
30-03-2009, 02:50
I have a friend who is kind of like this. He plays Sisters a lot, and constantly has issues with how the army can't compete or some other thing. My other friends (whom I met through him) are all kind of at the point where it is like "Shut up and play", or "Quit playing then"

I had to hear how the Marines were incredibly cheesy a few weeks back....and I was on HIS team!

sigh.

Imperius
30-03-2009, 02:58
I hear this complaint EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND. I'm thinking of switching clubs because of him. I let him team up with 2 other buddies, and since all three of them were terrible I thought it would be even. After I just use an epic hammer and anvil killing around 2 units he wouldn't shut up for the rest of the game....


To deal with them: No real way, just say you will leave the next time he whines. He should also realize that THE SECOND HE IS IN CLOSE COMBAT he utterly defeats a platoon.

Orkeosaurus
30-03-2009, 03:01
Throw rocks at him.

Hell's Angel
30-03-2009, 03:09
Oh, man... Wow. *sigh* O.K if anyone ever takes you aside to talk to you, or whines when he is loosing just laugh at them. Seriously. In their face! During a game start pretending to enjoy slaughtering them, AND make little aside comments about just how their troopers die. Like, "My Carnafex just dissected your dude starting with his anus... and took his time doing it, ouch" (or other such rediculous claims.) I used to play with a guy like this and would taunt him so badly he would destroy his own figs in bouts of anger. Stick with it, there is a lesson to be learned here and if he is a "friend" he needs to learn it. If he is a stranger/golden boy/whatever, then he needs to shut up or be ridiculed until he realizes what a man-child he really is. Taken aside... wow.

Kalec
30-03-2009, 04:05
Bring a Nidzilla list with under the max amount of MCs.

After he complains, add more.

Hilarity ensues.

SPYDER68
30-03-2009, 04:27
I run into the same problem when playing my guard..

I usually run tank heavy in the current league.. and no one likes it..

So tourney this weekend.. i ran a full walking infantry list with 1x armor 12 tank.

I still get the same meh "i hate guard" with the list..

All you can do is just shrug it off and not care.

AngryAngel
30-03-2009, 04:35
Ok, for the first part, I've known and played against players like this. I doubt you'll really ever talk sense into him. Even if you took the weakest army and list in the game, he'd find something broken about it, and harp about it. One of those, the grass is forever greener kinda gamers. Where everything is better then their army, even if they win a majority of the time.

Good luck to ya trying to deal with it, I'd just talk to him and try and get him to grow up some. It is, as others have stated just a game. Yeah sometimes it may even make ya mad, however that should be a rare occurence as opposed to every game. As well usually calling things broken is just a way to admit defeat but not accept blame personally.

As for the story about the golden boy at the tournament, wow, is all I can say there. I've never heard of that happening, and never done anything like that, and I run the general group in my local area I play at. If he's that good he should be able to handle things without harping to get lists changed.

As well not even joking, if someone took me aside to tell me that. I would, also very calmly, and politely, tell them I think they are a scum bag and a bully. Then inform them, I won't change my list, and I will show up for any tournament I wish to attend. Further stating that, that they are indeed the loser they claim others to be. Then go on with my day, ignoring his words and wishes.

Something to be said for the fact he at least was honest in how he felt. While he was an A hole, he at least showed some refreshing honesty. Would have been nice to respond in kind eh ? If ya go back, make sure you do tell him exactly what ya think of him. Then defeat him, and callin the waaaaambulance to haul off his broken ego.

owen matthew
30-03-2009, 05:24
TBH, the fact that you changed your list to please an a$$hole scrub like that pretty much makes you look like... well... a pu$$y. The scrub and the guys at that club probably think all sorts of bad things about you. If I were you I wouldn't go back to that club unless you feel you got something to prove - you're likely to get just more bad experiences.


I hate to admit it, but you are right, I did P*** out. Short and direct. You sir, call it like you see it. I think you are right about the more bad experiences. Seriously I probably would have forgotten about this completely, but a friend of mine keeps going back, and getting into frustrating situations with the same Golden-boy. It keeps bringing it up for me. Newest are the suspicions that this G-B is using loaded dice.

I think once more into the breech, for dignity's sake is not so bad.

They have another 1500 tourney coming up the weekend of April 18th I think, but I'll be out of town. Next one for me. If any of you killers are in N. California and you want a crack, let me know.

madprophet
30-03-2009, 05:43
I've been a wargamer for over 25 years (yikes!) and I have won more than my share of tournaments. Against a good player, I usually bat 500 and that's as it should be. Generally, I play guard but I have also fielded CSM, 'Nids (I like genestealer heavy forces), Tau and I am building an Ork force.

It really doesn't matter what army I use, I generally still end up going 50/50 with an experienced player. Against a less tactically adept opponent, I usually win but again, that's as it should be.

The important thing to remember is that losses are more valuable than victories. When you win, you don't usually learn that much - you rarely have to explain why you won, your cunning plan worked obviously.

When you lose, however, you need to think about why. Did you not use your forces optimally? (very likely). Did your opponent out-fox you and bring his entire force to bear on only a portion of yours allowing him to roll up your lines? Did you deploy a force inappropriate to the objectives you needed to accomplish?

The reason you lost is very rarely "the other guy's army was broken". You lost because you made one mistake more than the other fellow did, the trick is to figure out what that mistake was and learn to compensate for it the next time you face a similar opponent.

'Nidzilla armies got you down? Then you need to brush up on your anti-armor tactics. Personally, my Ice River Guards can eat all heavy armies for breakfast. Yes, I'll get hurt doing it but I can fuzzy-wuzzy those beasties to death with my heavier numbers. What is fuzzy-wuzzy? Basically, it is the notion that if you take a trooper of firepower X and make his firepower 2X, he isn't worth twice as much on the battlefield, only about the square root of 2 times X because there is still only one of him. He can be overcome with sufficient time and/or numbers of weaker units. Since the guard will usually have the numbers, fuzzy-wuzzy tactics become a key skill to develop for any guard commander.

Mastering the Refused Flank is another one of those must-learn skills for a Guard player but also Tau, Orks, CSM/SM players. The idea is to deploy your army on a single flank of your opponent, leaving half of his army unable to engage you (hence the 'refused' flank). You can then pit 100% of your forces against roughly 50% of his and roll up his lines and defeat him in detail. The risk here is that he will refuse the opposite flank you did and you end up with both armies concentrated in opposite board corners or on the same board half nullifying the advantage and generally favoring the smaller, higher firepower army since the larger force will literally be tripping over itself.

The point being, all the armies in 40K (and most other well-designed wargames) are competitive, you need to learn to use their pluses and minuses to their best advantage. Try to get your friend into this mindset and you'll both enjoy the hobby more.

As for Golden Boy, I have dealt with his ilk before too. I generally put it to him this way, "I understand you are reluctant to face a well-constructed army lead by a very experienced grognard like myself. You should be. But play against me anyway, I will teach you - you will learn. You cannot hope to win against me, but perhaps you can learn to lose well, perhaps even brilliantly. And if you should win, however badly - as unlikely as this may be - I will tip my hat to your greatness in front of the whole company. What do you say? Are you up for it?"

I have never had a "Golden Boy" turn down that challenge.

Born Again
30-03-2009, 06:24
Well, what more can you do but... tell him to shut up or get out and don't play. Explain to him that the whole theory on points values is that any two armies will be evenly matched and so anything bad that happens is because he's a bad player XD

Seriously, if it's ruining the game for you don't play him. Check in your area for local clubs, or just pop into the store. If you don't mind people constantly interrupting to look at your models and ask who's winning, GW store games aren't that bad as long as you can keep little kids from dropping your models on the floor :p After a couple, you could meet someone to organise home games with, anyway.

massey
30-03-2009, 06:34
Trade armies and beat him. Then tell him that it's not your army that is broken, he just sucks. Keep playing him and beating him until he learns. Start to give him advice in the middle of the game.

The problem with only playing one other player, who happens to be your friend, is that neither of you have a good basis for comparison. He doesn't know if your army is cheesy because it's the only one he faces. Plus, you're his friend, so he subconsciously feels like he can complain to you about perceived unfairness (the way he wouldn't to a stranger). My first wargame was Battletech about 15 or 16 years ago. I played against one friend, over and over. I virtually always beat him, because my tactics are just a bit better than his. So I thought I was awesome. When I started playing at a local store, I realized I wasn't very good. I was just better than my friend.

The only thing that will open your friend's eyes is seeing how he does against other players.

pootleberry
30-03-2009, 06:41
I'd not let people get away with it really. I find that some people enjoy bemoaning their situation and that no-one calls them on it, but the trick is to call them on it immediately, even if it's a little uncomfortable. This game is competative and people should try to be good sports. This cheese calling is annoying. I don't think there's anything wrong with using a cheesy list, every now and then, but I'd hardly call your list cheesy.

Before he ruins your love of the game try and find yourself some other players, still play with this man though.

Tyndmyr
30-03-2009, 06:46
I have a very simple solution for this unfortunate circumstance. Offer to swap armies with him for a game or two.

It's clearly fair, and should address any problems he has with your "cheesy army". Either you'll be able to find the weaknesses in his list and point them out to him, or, more likely, you'll thoroughly spank him with his own army, and he'll need to face up to the fact that the list isn't the issue.

Maharajah
30-03-2009, 07:13
Play a few games with each others armies.

If you keep winning, it's proof that it's not your list, it's you, and he might pick up some tactical ideas of you to make future games more interesting.
If he wins, you'll know that your lists are unbalanced and both of you could make some changes.

ANG-Tanker
30-03-2009, 07:14
I have to deal with several of those catagories. One guy quit and came back after a year. All he does is complain about how 5th ed is horrable. He seems to have forgotten that he hated 4th 3rd 2nd ........ No matter what you do he is never happy. I played in a tornament with my deathwing not to long ago and the first guy I played quit after the first turn just because he didn't plan for my termies deep striking. He then pulled me aside and said nothing personal but I am never going to play you again. How is that not personal? The finale catagory of people I get to deal with goes on and on about how their army lists and how unbeatable they are and gets irate when they starts to loose. One of them I beat in 2000pt by killing every single model and loosing 2 terminators. It was a daemon bomb from hell list. To this day I still get dirty looks from her and her boyfriend.
Now I understand its no fun getting your butt handed to you on a silver platter (I lost my first 50 games with my deathwing as I learned how to use them go go thinking your 2+ save will always win you the day) but move on.
And on the not of the eternal winner just crush him as hard and fast as you can, give him a actual reason to complain. Bring the most cheesed out imperial guard list you can and give him a taste of the empoures fury with the leash taken off. And on the note of goldy loxs when he pulls you aside ask him this series of questions so you can get maximum pleasure from the situation:
Do you own the store?
Are you runing the tournament?
Are you my boss?
Do you think I care about what you think?
Say those four things to him during that conversation and you will surly need a bag of popcorn and you will wish you had a camera to get his face. And now on to my most favored of winners. These are the people that will build the most cheesed out over powered list that they possably can and then scream about your army being cheesy when you beat them. I have seen this guy only loose 3 times and all three times it wasn't a enjoyable night in the store. Every five minutes we got to listen to outburst of "That is so broken". Long story short he played a eppidemious nurgle list with three daemon princess. The other guy had crimson fist. Sterguard pod in and waste eppy. Pedro runs around with his honor guard and go toe to toe with his daemons. It was a close game and all he did was go on and on about how broken the honor guard was. Forget the fact that his own was immune to damn near anything you threw at it.

dblaz3r
30-03-2009, 07:47
"I understand you are reluctant to face a well-constructed army lead by a very experienced grognard like myself. You should be. But play against me anyway, I will teach you - you will learn. You cannot hope to win against me, but perhaps you can learn to lose well, perhaps even brilliantly. And if you should win, however badly - as unlikely as this may be - I will tip my hat to your greatness in front of the whole company. What do you say? Are you up for it?"

Brilliant :D

Panzerkanzler
30-03-2009, 08:41
Well...it might be the case that the whiner is beyond help really. I used to be one you see. I started playing 40k against a much more experienced guy and always lost. He was not in any way a power gamer and often gave me advice, but I generally never remembered the advice as I was far to busy with being a sourpuss and bad loser. In short, I was an irritating dick. Nothing could change it, especially not reason.

A decade later, I won a sportsmanship prize and today I always make sure that my opponent has a smile on his lips and we both enjoy the game. I'm still not a very good player, I win roughly 50% of my games, but losing doesn't bother me much any more. Because if I lost to a better opponent he deserves it, and if I lost because of how the dice rolled then it wasn't my own lack of skill that sealed the game. Maturity and good sportsmanship is something you have, or do not have. It can come over time, but I honestly don't think you can bring your guy around in a week or two.

Jellicoe
30-03-2009, 11:18
What Panzerkanzler said. That level of maturity comes over time and from the bitter experience of life but it makes for a much much better game. I had an opponent much as the original poster described back in the 80's as young boys, he was a classic for flipping over the board when all was not going well and it took him about 10 years to lose that, albeit he has always retained his whacky sense of tactics which means 90% of the time he gets cut to pieces and every so often he does something so unusual its unplayable

I would really try and find some clubs to join. In sheffield there should be buckets to choose from. I am pretty sure that Dysartes have a GCN affiliated club there based in the battle bunker run by wargames emporium - someone local can correct/corroborate.

Club play really expands your repertore of tactics and gameplay in a hopefully friendly environment - if it isnt friendly then change club!

Giganthrax
30-03-2009, 13:28
To the OP;

Honestly speaking, if your friend is being such a whiner you should talk to him about it, explain to him the point of playing the game and learning from losses, or perhaps even send him to a forum like warseer so he can see that most people laugh at the idea of IG being overpowered.

If the guy just keeps whinning like that, stop playing him and go to the club. Seriously, you don't want to waste your nerves and time with someone whose sole objective during a game is to ruin the fun for both of you. I hate that kind of players.

I hate to admit it, but you are right, I did P*** out. Short and direct. You sir, call it like you see it. I think you are right about the more bad experiences. Seriously I probably would have forgotten about this completely, but a friend of mine keeps going back, and getting into frustrating situations with the same Golden-boy. It keeps bringing it up for me. Newest are the suspicions that this G-B is using loaded dice.
I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say (I was worried people would think I was insulting you, which wasn't my intention).

Well, the GB is obviously making lots of people angry. IMHO, if you think you can beat him on his own terrain, that's awesome and you should do that. Me, personally, unless I was hell-bent on massacring his army and laughing at him while I do it, would avoid that place. Generally, I find no use in going somewhere where I know I will get annoyed by someone ********. Even if I end up embarassing him, it usually isn't worth the stress.

Mannimarco
30-03-2009, 13:53
the problem is theres some people out there who call cheese just because they lose and not because it is cheesy

"you took 2 lash princes and 9 obliterators, thats cheesy"

"you took an imperial guard gunline, thats cheesy"

see the difference?

where does it end? you took tonnes of flamers so i couldnt win with my tyranid gaunt swarm! thats cheesy, you took heavy weapons so now my tanks are dead! thats cheesy!

noobzor
30-03-2009, 15:35
but that IS cheesy :(
JK

I have a horribe win loss ratio, but whatever. I play for fun, not to win. If I wanted to win I would learn how to rill dice :p

tuebor
30-03-2009, 15:46
where does it end? you took tonnes of flamers so i couldnt win with my tyranid gaunt swarm! thats cheesy, you took heavy weapons so now my tanks are dead! thats cheesy!

I submit that it is in fact cheesy if one player tools their army specifically to fight the other and the other doesn't.

Example:

"Oh, you're playing Orks? Let me get out my 9x Griffon list. Oh, you're playing Deffwing Orks? Let me get out my 4x Demolisher and plasma spam list."

Now, if both armies tool up to fight the other, I'm perfectly fine with that. I just think the game works out a lot better when both armies are either of the "take all comers" variety or both tooled up against each other specifically.

FictionalCharacter
30-03-2009, 15:54
I hate to admit it, but you are right, I did P*** out. Short and direct. You sir, call it like you see it. I think you are right about the more bad experiences. Seriously I probably would have forgotten about this completely, but a friend of mine keeps going back, and getting into frustrating situations with the same Golden-boy. It keeps bringing it up for me. Newest are the suspicions that this G-B is using loaded dice.

I think once more into the breech, for dignity's sake is not so bad.

They have another 1500 tourney coming up the weekend of April 18th I think, but I'll be out of town. Next one for me. If any of you killers are in N. California and you want a crack, let me know.

i can certainly understand being far too taken aback by a situation like that to really measure out a response. i honestly have no idea what i would do in those circumstances. ideally i would keep the list, demolish him, and then go on about my business.

i suggest that if you go back, just make sure you play how you want to play with the list you want to run. if you want to dismantle that guy, then do it. if you don't want to be confrontational and there's another list you like that manages not to ruffle feathers, then i guess everybody wins. it's your game too, and there's no real reason why you need to make concessions for someone who has no interest in reciprocating. if they ask you not to return, that's their loss and they can keep what seems to me to be a weird little lord of the flies vibe going.

Mannimarco
30-03-2009, 16:13
i would argue that MEQ lists are fairly common, if i turn up with my guard army with either a plasma gun or melta gun in each squad, can i be called cheesy? after all, i know MEQS are common and i have built a MEQ killer, its nothing against you personally but was built with the purpose of killing any and all marine lists

if this is cheesy then should i deliberately weaken my army list just so people dont feel its cheesy?

eg: i go to a store and set my army up, ive never seen my opponent before but he just happens to have a marine army, takes one look at mine and calls cheese, should i replace my plasmas and meltas with grenade launchers and flamers? it would make me weaker but at least it would be fair on your opponent if not on me

the same thing happened with the new ork codex: people realised there would be a lot of band wagon jumping (new army syndrome) and started to build ork killer lists, is this cheesy?

i agree it is cheesy to see what army your opponent is using before you decide which army to use yourself though

Ianos
30-03-2009, 17:10
the problem is theres some people out there who call cheese just because they lose and not because it is cheesy

"you took 2 lash princes and 9 obliterators, thats cheesy"

"you took an imperial guard gunline, thats cheesy"

see the difference?


No i don't because to me an IG gunline might seem like the strongest list in the game. No matter how you put it, its in the eye of the beholder. If i want to promote balance, i will propose rules and changes and hope GW sees them. If i want to play the game i will play the game.;)

Awilla the Hun
30-03-2009, 18:26
"Calling IG overpowered .

Dude that's serious." (Quote from second post.)

We must hope that the player was speaking as the Ghost of Warhammer Future (as opposed to the Ghost of Warhammer Past, which is played by someone who keeps saying how 2nd Ed was the high point of GW, and that it's all gone downhill from then on in.)

And as for my opinion on whingers... whilst my club is generally deficient in terms of table space (I keep blasting through some benightened Lord of the Rings march about four sixths of what I need for a good game), it does have lots of decent people. I have played many games, but I cannot remember any when I shout "OP!" (although I have said this with the club commentating squad about a certain Tzeentchi Daemon army that has only ever lost twice out of twenty games.)

It must be said that, some years ago (when I was an even smaller lad, and you only fired one shot for moving and "rapid" firing), I repeatedly took the same Tyranid army against the same Blood Angels army in 500 point games, and I repeatedly got slaughtered! (I hear that nids are bad in tiny games.) And then I got the world's worst painted Chaos Space Marine army (Golden Marines!), and got hammered into the dirt. From the perspective of someone who has frequently led his army to destruction, I can easily understand how people can point fingers and shout at their opponents. Indeed, I recently enacted one of these upon my first opponent at Devourer. Did he whine and complain? No! We shook hands, and went to our next games.

If I was to be faced with such an enemy (enemy, not opponent: a sporting opponent doesn't rig tourneys or mutter insults at you), I would try to remain constantly civil. Civil as in cheering loudly when my bayonet charging infantry manage to kill something in assault, but commisserating his poor dice rolls if his perfectly positioned, beautifully painted Honour Guard squad, with an excellently converted Captain at their head, get flattened by an Ordance template after getting poor rolls for trying to rapid fire something of mine.

Yes, if he is a vicious Golden Boy type *illegitimate child*, he will stamp his feet and complain. Then you wait quietly, take mental notes, explain that your shooting phase is over, and that you are about to pour your Rough Rider Squadron into his Terminators. As he takes a breath, point out that you mentioned that their lanced added 2 to S and I on the charge, and that they ignore armour saves, before the game even began (always try to do this, or there may be a proper reason for his grievances.) Continue to take mental notes on his fallacious reasoning.

After shaking his hand and saying that he fought the good fight, go home and write an argument of such devestating reasoning and logic (with enough elegant turns of phrase to make Cicero weep in envy.) Then rehearse it, return to the shop, ensure that everyone is listening, clear your throat, and say it. Invite him to return with as imperious a gesture as possible.

If, of course, you took along two lash princes and nine obliterators (for example), admit your failings and make another list.



((My own story does, coincidentally, end happily: I got Imperial Guard. And I learned how to fight. Until then, my tactical knowledge-including for that legendarily shooty army, the Tyranids- had been based around the "fact" that Last Stands always end in victory for the army that stands still and pours gun/arrow fire into the charging enemy lines. That the defenders usually got wiped out, and that my enemies often out gunned me, didn't even cross my mind. Happily, the Imperial Guard are good at the standing and shooting game, and I learned to do what movement was required, and to have a good fire plan. Now I can take on reasonably competent enemies and come out, if not on top, then with a hard fought defeat or draw.))

Meriwether
30-03-2009, 20:47
Owen,

I used to teach at the School for the Deaf in Fremont, and even though I moved away in 2002 I think I know exactly the Golden Boy you are speaking about... If it's not the same kid, it's his clone.

My advice is to not let yourself get pulled aside. Say rather loudly, "If you have a problem with me or my army, I'd appreciate it if we talked about it where everyone can hear the conversation."

Then, calmly, carefully, and reasonably, shove a table down his throat until he dies. Then ask who else wants to cry 'cheese'.

That should pretty much settle it.

Meri

pyremius
30-03-2009, 21:00
eg: i go to a store and set my army up, ive never seen my opponent before but he just happens to have a marine army, takes one look at mine and calls cheese, should i replace my plasmas and meltas with grenade launchers and flamers?

"Tell you what. Since you think Plasma guns are cheesy, I'll take every weapon out of my army that denies Marines their armor saves, if you take every weapon that denies IG their armor saves out of your army."

At least my Tau have carapace armor, for what little it's worth some days.

Frontier
30-03-2009, 21:32
Owen,

I used to teach at the School for the Deaf in Fremont, and even though I moved away in 2002 I think I know exactly the Golden Boy you are speaking about... If it's not the same kid, it's his clone.

My advice is to not let yourself get pulled aside. Say rather loudly, "If you have a problem with me or my army, I'd appreciate it if we talked about it where everyone can hear the conversation."

Then, calmly, carefully, and reasonably, shove a table down his throat until he dies. Then ask who else wants to cry 'cheese'.

That should pretty much settle it.

Meri

Fatality......

tuebor
30-03-2009, 21:36
i would argue that MEQ lists are fairly common, if i turn up with my guard army with either a plasma gun or melta gun in each squad, can i be called cheesy? after all, i know MEQS are common and i have built a MEQ killer, its nothing against you personally but was built with the purpose of killing any and all marine lists

if this is cheesy then should i deliberately weaken my army list just so people dont feel its cheesy?

eg: i go to a store and set my army up, ive never seen my opponent before but he just happens to have a marine army, takes one look at mine and calls cheese, should i replace my plasmas and meltas with grenade launchers and flamers? it would make me weaker but at least it would be fair on your opponent if not on me

the same thing happened with the new ork codex: people realised there would be a lot of band wagon jumping (new army syndrome) and started to build ork killer lists, is this cheesy?

i agree it is cheesy to see what army your opponent is using before you decide which army to use yourself though

It's the intention that results in "cheese". Adjusting to the metagame is fine, adjusting to that one particular opponent for that one particular game without offering them the opportunity to do the same is not.

If you just happen to have a list that is geared towards your opponent that's fine, but choosing or changing a list based on knowledge your opponent's list is not.

isaac
30-03-2009, 21:36
I submit that it is in fact cheesy if one player tools their army specifically to fight the other and the other doesn't.

Example:

"Oh, you're playing Orks? Let me get out my 9x Griffon list. Oh, you're playing Deffwing Orks? Let me get out my 4x Demolisher and plasma spam list."

Now, if both armies tool up to fight the other, I'm perfectly fine with that. I just think the game works out a lot better when both armies are either of the "take all comers" variety or both tooled up against each other specifically.

I play mainly with Dormmates and we roughly know what the other has and if we are bringing in a new unit or vastly different list, we give each other a heads up so that both armies will be somewhat balanced against each other.

And because of that we don't really care all that much who wins or loses, just as long as all players have fun (of course long losing streaks are annoying and we each try to win, but not at the expense of fun)

tuebor
30-03-2009, 21:41
I play mainly with Dormmates and we roughly know what the other has and if we are bringing in a new unit or vastly different list, we give each other a heads up so that both armies will be somewhat balanced against each other.

And because of that we don't really care all that much who wins or loses, just as long as all players have fun (of course long losing streaks are annoying and we each try to win, but not at the expense of fun)

And that's fine, so long as both sides are aware of it. What I'm not a fan of is arriving at the store with a list, seeing that Bob is playing Deathwing and then changing your list to have plasma and lascannons on everything you can before you ask him for a game. Then you see that Jim is playing horde Orks so you take out your list and switch all those plasma guns and lascannons out for blast and template weapons before asking for a game.

Reaver83
30-03-2009, 21:50
I was at a tournament and ended up playing this young kid maybe 13 or 14, who insisted on some very dubious interpretations of various rules. I asked him if he was sure of this, and let him continue. It turns out that tactics can beat pople like this, and there is some satisfaction to it as well. After the game I took out the BGB and showed him where he'd got the rules wrong. He seemed to just walk off in a huff

isidril93
30-03-2009, 21:57
how convenient he had to leave

cruise
30-03-2009, 22:23
I find the most satisfaction is to be had from beating these sort of people while playing their game. Doesn't like a particular weapon? Take it out. Thinks a particular unit is cheesy? Don't use it. Nod and smile and play along, then defeat them anyway.

Sure, that's easier said than done, but if you know the opponent's list well (like the OP) you can probably pick unusual units and tactics that will still work well against them.

Fundamentally, however, the problem is immaturity and poor self-esteem, and the only decent cure for that is time.

LonelyPath
30-03-2009, 23:03
Gods... reminds me of some people I've played again and they're still winning. Tell him to come fight my Nids, he'll lose against them and pretty badly, they seem to like chomping on any form of SM, lol.

I'd even let him take my Nids against his Chaos for him to see, though I doubt he'd get it to work since it takes some finesse, feints, flank attacks, cornering units and lots other underhanded tricks which makes me no longer play it so often, lol ;)

Seriously though, at least he doesn't burst into tears, throws tantrums and goes on about "how people are moving his minis" or "killing them behind his back" while he keeps disappearing from the table (though he swears he doesn't). I had a player like that the other week in a huge store-wide Apoc game and I pray never to have to play in the same game with him again. Not my fault his forces were the only initial force I had in my sights and I pretty much wiped them out with good dice rolling (and the staff removed his casualties, rolled his saves, etc coz he wasn't about).

My suggestion? Find new people to play against, look for gaming clubs (there should be some in your area unless you live in Wales like me, lol) or try your store. Also look in other hobby shops, they also often list clubs, groups, people looking for fellow gamers and may let you put you your own ad for gamers. Just list what games you play and what times you tend to be available, and a contact number, or ask them to leave their number on the sheet (you keep your privacy that way).

My armies always follow a similar roster no matter what, I take the Andy Stillman approach in that your surprises come in your taactics, not what new wargear you pasted onto your troops or that new tank you just painted. My DA are loaded up woth PG and MG since they lack alot of weapons that can punch through armour (it fits the fluff I made up for the Pre-Heresy setting of it). I've had 1 player nag about all the MG/PG in it, but only 1 and they were loaded up with more armour than you can shake a Stompa at, lol. Well, I suppose they weren't keen on my guns wrecking their tanks, I wouldn;t either if mine were painted that nicely, heheh :D

@ owen matthew - I know that type, we had them at a games club I used to run, they weren't made welcome for long unless they changed their ways. I beat the Golden Boy of a club once (or so it came across as...) and he tried to make my life hell the rest of the evening until I took him aside and mentioned that his army should have won the game if he knew how to play it (CSM, lots of FNP, loaded up on armour killing machines including 9 Obliterators against my GK), he threw a tantrum and stormed off in a huff. My army struggled like hell and it was that he had no objectives covered that allowed me to run a squad in and take the win on the last turn. I do feel your pain there, but thankfully they are a minority in my experience and I've been playing 40k since it realse and found most of us to be sporting and take it all in good humour. It is only a game afterall and not really life and death.

Angelust
30-03-2009, 23:16
@Owen - I've had a lot of situations where the suddenness of a situation like that catches you off guard and you don't respond as assertively as you later realize you should have. My consolation to you is that it happens, and it doesn't make you a pu$$y as has been stated. The likely situation is that the people around him don't like him either, but they see him as a necessary evil to progress the hobby and sales around the store, so they tolerate his antics.

If the store is a GW, you have a lot of opportunity to raise some hell though if that kind of crap is tolerated by management. GW has no qualms about (humiliatingly) firing their management if they're not doing their job. If it's a LGS, there's not a lot you can do, but you can choose to divert business away from there when there are people you know who shop/play there.

Imperius
31-03-2009, 00:48
New idea: To stop a cheese caller, do not talk to him. Eventually he will realize no-one is listening and shut-up. It worked for me.

teanabowlie
31-03-2009, 01:27
http://www.sr-wargamers.co.uk/ A google search yeilded this, I don't know if it's of any use to you though, sorry.

Your best bet is to spend a bit of time in that GW, even if you aren't gaming, get chatting to someone and ask if they know about any clubs nearby. Thats how I found a club in Edinburgh.

owen matthew
31-03-2009, 01:52
@Owen - I've had a lot of situations where the suddenness of a situation like that catches you off guard and you don't respond as assertively as you later realize you should have. My consolation to you is that it happens, and it doesn't make you a pu$$y as has been stated. The likely situation is that the people around him don't like him either, but they see him as a necessary evil to progress the hobby and sales around the store, so they tolerate his antics.

This is just about what sums it up I think. The funny thing is, is that I have no big issue with confrontation, I'm reasonably large, of above average intelect (you would never know from my speilling), been playing competatively for almost a decade, turned down a local PD at my own leisure to finish my Grad program... I just got caught napping! I think the fact he had the stones to come up to me so, unnabashedly, is what did it. I'll give him credit for making the statements to my face...

It is just a LGS. If it was a GW, you can bet it would not have gone past that one moment. I worked at one for two years, they took no crap, and tollerated nothing that would get in the way of a customer feeling comphortable, and spending his money.

@ OP, I am sorry if I hijacked a bit of your thread. I did not mean too!

@Meri, this happened out in Concord, or Walnut Creek. I think you make be thinking of Scenario, which was a great place to play, but had more than its fair share of insaine players. Did we meet or play there? PM if you want to chat.

tacoo
31-03-2009, 02:15
i hate it when you play with whiners and that $hit. i have a friend wo plays tyranids and constintly moans about how underpowerdnids are at the moment and how they need a new codex, even though he has not lost a game with them yet!yet here i am playing necrons, who BTW do actually suck in 5th ed, and i having loads of fun, since i dont play to win. if you saw some of my list you would see.(I use pharias and every one knows how great there are against nids and eldar!). i have just stopped playing himrecently since he challangers every thing i do when its my turn. we have had a game where he refused to continue just beause he wasnt sure if i could get into assualt even though i had a 12 inch assault and was only 7 inches away, he kept saying i couldnt assault since i had 1 model not able to go straight since there was a interveining model.

sorry for spelling errors, spelling is my worst thing

Jwolf
31-03-2009, 02:34
God, this is a funny thread. I suggest video or audiotape, if the whiner is your friend. I think listening to how you sound is very helpful for people who want to change their behavior (and your friend at least says he does).

As to the Golden Boy issue, I certainly would go back and play to win. You made a mistake in leaving before, no sense continuing on the wrong path.

Supreme Archon Orlok
02-04-2009, 01:43
There is one word to describe these "cheese" callers:

Cowards.

Remember this equation:

Cheese+callers= cowards.

And remind them: Warhammer is just a game/hobby.

Then recite the definition of a game.

Meriwether
02-04-2009, 01:50
@Meri, this happened out in Concord, or Walnut Creek.

Yeahyeahyeah... The store on the second floor of that little mall, right? I played there just about every weekend for two years straight -- 2001-2002. At the time I played a lot of orks (with lots of ancient models) and some dark eldar (half unpainted, half poorly painted). There were a lot of people there, but one kid (I somewhat remember) who was a tremendously sore loser, and everybody seemed to defer to him all the time.

Small world, man.


God, this is a funny thread. I suggest video or audiotape, if the whiner is your friend. I think listening to how you sound is very helpful for people who want to change their behavior (and your friend at least says he does).

The video is a great idea. Make a series of clips with him whin(g)ing like a beee-atch, then ask "Would you want to play against you?"

Meri

Skyrir
02-04-2009, 05:34
LOL guard overpowered. Naw, it's them damn squigs you gotta watch out for.

My friend who I play with all the time usually pwnzrs everyone cuz he has Blood Angels, Demons, Orks, Daemon Hunters, Chaos, & Tau in copious amounts, plus he always rolls 6's. However, evertime he starts losing, it's a bitchfest. I just tell him to stop bitching he wins more often than not.

AngryAngel
02-04-2009, 06:10
You know, for those who can't handle losing, I have to say this. " It's not about how hard you can hit. It's about the hard you can get hit, it's about how much you can take and keep moving forward, thats how winning is done! "

For people who want to cry the cheese card without real cause other then frustration. It is tempting, however we must all be adult about it and fight that evil urge. Things most often can be tough but not perhaps cheesy. Trick is, as quoted above, to take the hits and keep moving forward, to not let them beat you. Once you admit defeat inside, sure enough the game usually follows suit.

In 40k there are more and less powerfull armies, yet none I would at this moment call totally broken.

To whine is a pointless waste of time, to accept a tough unit, or a bad turn of fate and push on to victory despite it, is a test of ones determination. Perhaps those who need to try and blame the world for their losses need to look a little deeper.

( As well for a mini game, what movie did I take my quote from ? )

brassangel
02-04-2009, 06:23
IG overpowered? :wtf:

With Orks and Chaos Space Marines running around? He can't be serious. What is he playing? Daemonhunters?

They will be good with their new book, as GW always has serious issues with power creep, but even so, they are hardly overpowered.

I have a friend who only builds tournament-calibur lists and expects to annihilate every enemy, every single time. He starts right off the bat with the Seize the Initiative roll. If I roll that 6, he talks about how it's the stupidest rule in the history of gaming.

If I wipe out a unit during the shooting phase, he talks about how broken my shooty units are.

If I wipe out a unit in CC, he talks about how that unit needs to be nerfed.

If I'm gaining an advantage on the table overall, he talks about how much he agrees with the forum posters who allegedly claim that the army list I use is or can be the most broken army ever.

If he loses, he talks about not being interested in the game.

Well, this should be past-tense, as it used to happen all of the time. It's gotten much better, but I still feel for you, man.

I weather it simply. State how you managed to score some lucky rolls, explain how it could have gone differently were his rolls a little better (even if bad luck is not to blame), and remind him during the game of what units you are "worried" about coming online.

Constantly make the experience positive, and bad luck on his part or your success will start to become a joke worth reflecting upon later instead of depressing and negative.

Start this up before the game begins so that he's not so mentally defeated right away. But if he's just going to walk towards you 6" at a time without much tactical planning, he shouldn't expect anything less than to get shot to pieces by a defensive gunline army.

helvexis
02-04-2009, 07:23
i just ignore cheese callers and go on and do my best to beat them had my dark eldar army called a horde list recently....which was kinda funny

bora
02-04-2009, 08:27
I play Necrons and heard some general whining from different players. My reaction to that usually is an explanation of Necron weaknesses and how easily they can be exploited by their particular army.

After that, those people are usually eager to play me as I am fair enough to give them ideas how to counter specific things.

If someone looses to me badly I like to talk about how the game went on and what the good things were that the other guy did and what could have altered the outcome.

Its always good to talk a lot and take the time to share strategies. Thats why i normally dont play at the local GW store. Too many people watching, not enough time and people feel under pressure. Instead i go there, watcha game or two and ask people if they want to hang out at my cozy place for a game.

Meriwether
02-04-2009, 13:21
I play Necrons

You poor, poor soul. This alone should give you the right to jam tables down the throats of anyone who cries 'cheese' at your army.

Necrons aren't even viable in 5th edition, much less competitive!

Meri

djinn8
02-04-2009, 16:25
The last game I played with this guy was perhaps the worst game for whining we've had yet. He was really narky about all sorts of stuff. He took it as a personal insult that my command squad had a medic :wtf:

The thing is the game was winnable for him, but his tactics just sucked. He deployed badly, placing all his obliterators no where near either my objective or his own, effectivly writing them of for the match. He used vital scoring unit to shield his elites when advancing on my objective, leaving him able to contest at best. He didn't go to ground with his plague marines who were in cover and being shot at with a Battle Cannon. And he conceeded the game after turn two when I gutted a 5 man termi squad with a demo charge. From that point on it was just the winge fest, any sembalance of tctics were thrown out the window and he simply advanced hoping to get into CC.

I suppose taking Kharn the Betrayer out with a mortor squad in CC didn't help. as well :D

Corrode
02-04-2009, 16:57
He's just a terrible player. Either play his Chaos army and destroy him with it, or find someone else to play with. There's no way you're going to have fun otherwise.

Sholto
02-04-2009, 17:44
But he is not just a terrible player. If that was all he was, he would lose but the games would still be fun. It seems this person has done the double and is both poor at the game and poor at playing games for fun in general. Helping him become a better player will not necessary make him a good sport. He needs to work on both and probably needs help with both, if you are to gain any sort of enjoyment out of your games with him. As others have said, it sounds like his main problem is a lack of maturity, and only time and patience can help with that. Keeping a positive attitude on your part and always trying to find the fun in game situations will help as well. If he sees you focused on winning, for example (not saying you are), that is what he will emulate. You shouldn't play to lose, but you could point out the downside whenever he makes a tactical error ("you can go to ground with these guys, by the way, and if you're not planning to shoot with them you might as well").

Have you considered trying to field a close range IG army yourself? If playing him with the usual long-range guard shooting isn't working for either of you in terms of getting a good game, why not challenge yourself and see how you fare with a less-than-optimal list? Warrior weapons, anyone?

There are practical suggestions, though. Try smaller games like combat patrol or killteam. Try swapping armies. Invite him to proxy units he might not own so he can try something new. Assign peanut M&Ms to every model, and if you kill it you get to eat the M&M. Stuff like that ;)

But gaming is not for everyone. Maybe this just isn't his thing.

Sholto

djinn8
02-04-2009, 17:54
I like the idea of playing for sweets - I think I'll try that with my girlfiend.